On April 13, three people were killed in a pair of shootings in Overland Park, Kansas. Dr. William Corporon, age 69, and his 14-year-old grandson Reat Underwood were shot and killed at the Jewish Community Center of Greater Kansas City. A little more than a mile away, Terry LaManno was killed in the parking lot of a Jewish retirement community.
The alleged lone gunman, Frazier Glenn Miller Jr., is the founder of the now-defunct White Patriot Party. The WPP, part political party & part paramilitary group, was formed by Miller & his associates from what had been the Carolina Knights of the Ku Klux Klan in 1980. The party, firmly rooted in neo-Nazism and Christian Identity, declared war on the federal government and was involved in the Greensboro Massacre, a confrontation between Nazis, Klansmen, and communists that resulted in the deaths of five people.
During his time with the WPP, Miller sought political office several times unsuccessfully. Miller was arrested on April 30, 1987 along with three co-conspirators on numerous Federal charges stemming from the WPP’s alleged plot to assassinate Morris Dees of the Southern Poverty Law Center. Miller served three years in prison, and during that time the WPP collapsed.
Since his release, Miller again became active in electoral politics, this time as an independent write-in candidate. In 2006 he ran for U.S. House in Missouri’s 7th Congressional District, receiving 23 votes. In 2010 he ran for U.S. Senate against incumbent Roy Blunt, netting just 7 write-in votes.
Of note, the American Nazi Party, whose current national chairman is a former White Patriot Party member, and the Ku Klux Klan have publicly denounced Miller’s actions.
If only this was actually true…
Is it or is it not damaging to the Libertarian Party, to have mercenary petitioners going around LYING about what the LP ballot access petition is for, telling people things such as, “Sign the petition to Increase the Minimum Wage!” or “Sign the petition to Keep Jobs in America!” or other lines of bullshit which do not even have anything to do with the Libertarian Party or the petition to place the party on the ballot? Would you agree or disagree that this is fraud?
Would you agree or disagree that it is damaging to the Libertarian Party, to have mercenary petitioners INTENTIONALLY padding their numbers by not qualifying people before they sign (by asking them if they are registered to vote in the state at their current address), with the intent of bilking the LP out of more money, and thinking that LP will be too stupid to catch them (which they typically do not get caught, and have gotten away with it)?
These are just two things that have happened recently, and for years, and have caused actual damage, unlike a small handful of voter registrations with inaccurate SSN’s on them, but were added to the voter roles anyway in spite of the inaccurate SSN’s, 15 FREAKING YEARS AGO!
The person from the SSN story has not even worked an LP petition drive in over 4 years. Some of the people who’ve pulled the shit that I mentioned in the first two paragraphs of this post are still working on LP drives to this day.
GET YOUR FUCKING PRIORITIES STRAIGHT!
Some question for Tom.
1) Do government officials, such as an elected Secretary of State, have to swear an oath to the Constitution?
2) Would you say that the Social Security program is constitutional?
3) Were Social Security numbers supposed to be used for anything other than for participating in government welfare programs?
4) True or False: It used to say the following on the back of Social Security cards: “FOR SOCIAL SECURITY PURPOSES — NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION”?
5) Have the courts rules that one must provide a Social Security Number in order to vote?
6) Was the Secretary of State and any other government official who was involved in crafting the voter registration form in compliance with their oath to “protect and defend the US Constitution” by asking for SSN’s on a voter registration form?
7) If the government officials who are asking for SSN’s for the purpose of voting, driving, or anything else are not in acting in compliance with their oath to “protect and defend the US Constitution,” would you say that they are committing perjury?
Notice how Tom ignores the MUCH LARGER problems related to ballot access drives that I listed above, such as petition circulators who DEFRAUDED the party out of thousands and thousands of dollars, a fundraiser who DEFRAUDED the party and petition circulators out of money, forgeries on petitions in multiple states done by non-libertarian mercenary petitioners, MISREPRESENTING the LP ballot access petitions in multiple states (as in LYING about what the petition is for to trick people into signing), piss poor validity rates in multiple states (some of which was done INTENTIONALLY, by petitioners having just anyone sign, regardless of whether they were qualified or not, just so they could pad their numbers and bilk the LP out of more money), etc….
Tom completely IGNORES these issues, and brings up something from 13 years ago that was not even on an LP drive, something from 15 years ago where the registrations in question were still processed as valid, and an issue that rarely comes up while petitioning for ballot access.
The fact that Tom basically keeps harping on trivia, but IGNORES the FREAKING ELEPHANTS in the room when it comes to ballot access problems the LP has and has had in the past, really makes you wonder about Tom’s priorities.
“Thomas L. Knapp June 7, 2014 at 8:53 pm
Jesus Christ on whole wheat toast. Let me see if I can get it through to you with an appeal to the exact text found on most voter registration forms: “The information I have provided is true to the best of my knowledge under penalty of perjury.” It doesn’t fucking matter if the fucking field on the fucking form is fucking optional — if you INTENTIONALLY LIE ON IT, you almost certainly committing a crime and you are absolutely, positively, beyond a shadow of a doubt committing fraud (a form of initiation of force) if you are doing it for financial gain. Period. End of story. Not refutable. Not negotiable. You don’t have to like that fact. It’s a fact whether you like it or not.”
THIS IS FUCKING BULLSHIT! The ONLY lawful purpose for requesting a Social Security Number is if a person wants to receive government welfare benefits. SSN’s were NEVER to be used for identification purposes, nor were they ever to be used for qualifying to vote.
The freaking court case that I posted above confirms this.
Not giving a truthful answer about an UNLAWFUL use of an UNLAWFUL number is not a crime.
If anything, it is the government that is COMMITTING a crime, by asking for SSN’s to vote (and to drive automobiles for that matter). The government officials who came up with the freaking voter registration form all COMMITTED PERJUFY themselves, when they swore an oath to the Constitution, but then VIOLATED it by asking for an UNCONSTITUTIONAL identifying number on a voter registration form.
It looks like Tom is a believer in the legality of the Social Security System, and more specifically, the legality of uses of SSN’s which are OUTSIDE of their actual purpose, which is to participate in government welfare programs (and government welfare programs are also unconstitutional, and therefore ILLEGAL).
“paulie June 7, 2014 at 10:36 pm
Hate to perpetuate a quarantined discussion, but I agree that “guessing” SSNs is fraudulent. ”
It is irrelevant. What damages were suffered from this? The voter registrations were processed anyway, so the people registering were not damaged as they were added to the voter roles, and the LP was not damaged in that the objective of these people being added to the voter roles was achieved.
I suppose one could argue that the IRS suffered damages, since not having the assigned SSN’s to the people who filled out the registrations meant that if they went on a fishing expedition to find the addresses of people who were behind on taxes, they would not have the proper SSN’s that would correspond to people living in those households.
So I guess Tom is upset that the IRS was not able to send threatening letters to the right people at a few households in New Mexico 15 years ago.
Paul said: “That is, of course, if he is telling the truth about how things went down. No such requirement existed when he agreed to take the job, from what he claims. Or, his version of the story may just be more Fincher spin. Dunno.”
That was exactly what went down. I talked to two members of the LP of New Mexico who were both there when this happened. They said that the LP of NM member who issued the decree about the SSN’s was an unreasonable hot head. Richard Winger also said that the state had to accept the voter registrations.
It is pretty apparent that Tom does not know much about ballot access drives, due to the fact that he keeps harping on what in reality was a minor incident that was much ado about nothing, from 15 freaking years ago, yet he IGNORES far more serious things that have happened since then, including things that went on WHILE HE WAS STILL AN LP MEMBER.
Hate to perpetuate a quarantined discussion, but I agree that “guessing” SSNs is fraudulent. I doubt it is an offense anyone would ever prosecute – no one did, and the voters who filled out those applications were duly registered to vote despite the fake SSNs. I also hate to defend Fincher, who is a despicable individual – among other things, he ripped off Andy out of thousands of dollars, made up B S story about being beaten up, caused me many unnecessary headaches, and at last report was running a scam I really hope he gets busted for, where he sets up in front of Walmarts and pretends to collect money for homeless veterans and keeps 100% for himself. But, it was also somewhat fraudulent to retroactively impose a requirement, which did not in fact exist under state law and which some other people working on the voter registration drive were not issued, that he get SSNs on all registrations or not be paid – after he traveled to NM to work on the registration drive and was “trapped” due to not having enough money to leave. That is, of course, if he is telling the truth about how things went down. No such requirement existed when he agreed to take the job, from what he claims. Or, his version of the story may just be more Fincher spin. Dunno.
Jesus Christ on whole wheat toast. Let me see if I can get it through to you with an appeal to the exact text found on most voter registration forms: “The information I have provided is true to the best of my knowledge under penalty of perjury.” It doesn’t fucking matter if the fucking field on the fucking form is fucking optional — if you INTENTIONALLY LIE ON IT, you almost certainly committing a crime and you are absolutely, positively, beyond a shadow of a doubt committing fraud (a form of initiation of force) if you are doing it for financial gain. Period. End of story. Not refutable. Not negotiable. You don’t have to like that fact. It’s a fact whether you like it or not.
That said, once again: The reason I brought this stuff up was not to rehash your hobbyhorse for the 963rd time. It was to illustrate how any person’s actions could be seen as well intentioned by some people and as evidence of intention to commit sabotage by others.
Thomas Knapp said: “2 — I never said that putting a Social Security number on the form was mandatory. I said that intentionally putting a false Social Security number on the form was forgery.”
It was not illegal, because the SSN box was optional, so therefore it did not matter what was in that box. The voter registrations in question were still processed as valid, because the legally required information was all correct.
I think that an important issue being over looked is the LP state rep who committed breach of contract by changing the terms of a deal that had already been in place ex post facto (as in the registration drive had already been going in New Mexico in the weeks prior to this, as well as a few months prior to this, without any mandate that the SSN box had to be filled in in order to get paid on the registrations), and not only was this decree made after the deal had already been in place, but it was also being applied to registrations that had already been collected prior to the decree about the SSN box being issued. Furthermore, there was never an answer given why this decree about SSN’s was only given to the person working in Albuquerque, and not to the person working on the same registration drive in Las Cruces. The person working in Las Cruces was getting paid on all registrations whether the people registering filled in the SSN box or not. Then on top of this, there is the issue of the LP state rep misrepresenting the law, by claiming to the person working on the registration drive that the SSN box was mandatory, when in fact it was not, and using this misrepresentation as a pretext for not paying somebody for work that was already done prior to the LP state rep issuing the decree about the SSN’s.
Was filling in random numbers on the voter cards where the voters left them blank the best way to handle the situation? No. I would have contacted the Secretary of State’s office to see if I could get them to admit that they would process the registrations without an SSN. Either that, or I would have made photo copies of the registrations, turned them in, and then if the LP state rep did not pay me on the ones that lacked an SSN, I would have checked back a few weeks later to see if they got processed and if I had been able to find out that they did, I would have demanded my money.
The problem was made worse due to the person in question not having much money saved up at that time, as in they could not afford to wait for weeks or months to find out whether or not the cards had been processed as valid in order to get paid.
I actually had a situation happen on a registration drive that was somewhat similar (not over SSN’s, but still some parallels), where basically somebody claimed that some of the registrations that I collected were not good, and they docked my pay. Well, it turned out that almost all of the registrations that they docked me on were good, as in they did get processed as valid by the state in question’s election department. I had suspected that this was the case, but I was unable to get proof of it until about a year after the incident occurred, in part because the proponents of the campaign dodged my communications. After I finally got confirmation that the voter registrations which one individual from the campaign claimed were not good, were in fact good, I started contacting them and demanding the rest of my money. They did finally pay me, but I did not get the money until about 1 year and 3 months after the work had been done. Fortunately, I had enough money saved up to where being without this money, while certainly an inconvenience, did not cause major damage to my life, however, if I had been somebody who was closer to living a paycheck to paycheck existence (lots of people do live paycheck to paycheck), or if I had some kind of major catastrophe arise, then it could have caused major problems for me.
I have worked on a lot of campaigns in a lot of states, and I know what it is like to get jerked around, have people break their word (such as arbitrarily changing deals ex post facto, which is breach of contract), not pay money owed, delay payments, misrepresent the law, etc… It is not fun to deal with stuff like that.
A big deal was made about some (not all) of the last batch of registrations turned in having random numbers filled in the SSN boxes, but what about the LP state rep who committed breach of contract and misrepresentation of the law, by changing the deal ex post facto and claiming that SSN’s were mandatory, when they were not?
The cards that had the random numbers in the SSN boxes were processed as valid anyway, so there was no real harm done, other than maybe the IRS had a more difficult time using that information to hunt down addresses of people whom they claim have delinquent tax “debts”.
Even if all of those cards with the false SSN’s had been deemed invalid (note that there were cards in the same batch where the people registering did fill in their real SSN’s), it was not enough to throw the validity rate off that much. Keep in mind the examples that I mentioned above where the LP paid 100% for batches of petition signatures where the validity rates were in the 40’s% range and lower, as in the party paid in full for batches of signatures where over half of them were not valid (for one reason or another). You expect to get some invalid signatures when you do a petition drive, but it is not good to have more than half of the signatures not be valid.
You made a comment about not caring about LP ballot access in 2012. Well, I can tell you that there were bigger scandals than this prior to 2012. One example is a story that I’ve heard from more than one person, about how the LP paid a bunch of money to a mercenary petitioner for
petition signatures, and the mercenary petitioner accepted the money and never turned in any signatures, and they also never returned the money. I heard that it was several thousand dollars, like $10,000 or something like that. The LP never got the money back, and the person in question never did anything to work off the debt. This happened back in the 1990’s. I was told that the person in question was blacklisted from working for the LP after this, however, they have continued to work on LP drives for many years after this, they just turned their signatures in to a surrogate who paid them.
Andy,
One more time:
1 — I brought up that incident precisely as a way of demonstrating that things can be seen differently from more than one side;
2 — I never said that putting a Social Security number on the form was mandatory. I said that intentionally putting a false Social Security number on the form was forgery.
Check this out. A few years ago (sometime between 2005-2010) the California Secretary of State’s office changed the voter registration form, and one of the changes that they made was that on the form prior to the change to which I am referring, it was made pretty obvious that filling in the box that asked for a drivers license or the last 4 digits of a Social Security Number was OPTIONAL, as in it did not need to be filled in and the California election officials would still have to process the voter registration as valid assuming that all of the legally required information was filled in and way correct (as in name, date of birth, place of birth, address, US citizen status, age 18 or over, and not on parole for a felony).
The new form that they came out with removed the text that said that the request for the last 4 digits of an SSN or drivers license was OPTIONAL, so that it would appear to people that it was mandatory.
I knew that this was bogus, and I called up a California election office back in 2010 and I got them to admit to me on the phone that a person could leave those boxes blank, and that as long as the boxes which were legally required were filled in properly that they would in fact process the form as a valid voter registration. I had to coax it out of them to get them to fess up to this truth.
Well, I just looked it up, and it is still on the California Secretary of State’s website that they will process a voter registration form as valid without the drivers license or last 4 digits of an SSN filled in.
http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/new-voter/registering-vote.htm
“How will I identify myself when registering to vote?
The voter registration application asks for your driver license or California identification card number, or you can use the last four numbers on your Social Security card. If you do not have a driver license, California identification card or Social Security card, you may leave that space blank. Your county elections official will assign a number to you that will be used to identify you as a voter.”
Legally speaking, you do not have to provide this information even if you have an ID or an SSN, because neither have a damn thing to do with your right to vote. This is all just a way for the government to collect more data on people, and to share it with other government agencies.
Here is a story about a court case from 1998 where a person in Nevada sued over the Nevada election officials saying that he had to provide a Social Security Number in order to register to vote. The case was filed by Joshua Hansen (who I think is a part of the Hansen family of the Independent American Party of Nevada fame), and he won the case and was able to register to vote without an SSN. Note that this happened over a year before the 1999 controversy mentioned in posts above.
http://famguardian.org/Subjects/Politics/Articles/WinVote.htm
18-year-old rebels against being numbered
Wins right to vote without Social Security registration
By David M. Bresnahan
Copyright 1998, WorldNetDaily.com
LAS VEGAS, NV Even though government agencies tried their best to stop him, an 18-year-old will vote for the first time in the Nov. 3 election.
Last July, Joshua Hansen, 18, went to register to vote. A few days later he received a letter in the mail from Kathryn Ferguson, registrar of voters of Clark County, Nevada, rejecting his application.
Hansen had refused to supply a Social Security number on his application and Ferguson rejected him as a voter.
Hansen says he does not have a Social Security number, driver’s license, or government issued ID card. He says that he never will. He also refuses to pay income tax.
He defends his stands on these issues based on his study of the U.S. Constitution and his religious beliefs. He says he is willing to pay any price and will not give in to government pressure.
Hansen takes his right to vote seriously. So seriously that he took Ferguson to court to prove his point. With the help of his uncle, attorney Joel F. Hansen, he got the court to order Ferguson to permit him to vote.
He belongs to the First Christian Fellowship of Eternal Sovereignty, which he says is a political religion based on Christianity and the Constitution which people of all denominations may join.
“It’s a fellowship of anybody who’s Christian who really exercises their Christian beliefs within politics,” explained Hansen in a phone interview with WorldNetDaily.
“The Social Security number was much like the mark of the beast talked about in the “Book of Revelations.” One of the main reasons is that it, I mean you can’t buy or sell without it, it’s hard to do a lot of business without it. Have you ever tried to get a job without one, or voting or anything? A lot of the stuff talked about in the prophecy had come to life and I said, ‘I don’t want one of those.’
“Everything around Social Security is a lie. I don’t want any of the benefits from it and I don’t want to pay for it. The system’s going bankrupt. Anything I pay for I’ll never see anyway. It’s blatantly unlawful and unconstitutional,” explained Hansen.
Living without a Social Security number is a challenge, but not a major problem for Hansen. He has no bank account, works only for family members who will pay him “under the table,” refuses to get a driver’s license, and won’t pay taxes. Recently he started his own Internet consulting business.
He just finished high school this year and says he has very few friends who believe as he does. He belongs to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
“Because of my political beliefs,” says Hansen, “I have a lot of trouble getting along at church with a lot of my fellow members.” The members of his church believe in “The Articles of Faith,” a portion of it reads “We believe in . . . obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”
“They told me that the law said I had to have a number,” explains Hansen. “I said, ‘This is kind of stupid because all these numbers are obtained through the identification I already have.’ When you get a driver’s license or an ID card here, basically you show them your birth certificate, and to prove residency you write down on a little paper what your address is and sign something that says you’re not lying, which is all you do on a voter registration thing.”
Ferguson didn’t like Hansen’s logic. She rejected his application to vote. Hansen contacted many elected officials for help. Some responded and some didn’t, but none were of much help so he decided to take it to court.
“The Constitution of Nevada establishes who can vote,” explained Hansen. “If you’re an idiot, you’re insane, and if you don’t have residency you can’t vote. That’s it.”
Hansen filed a Writ of Mandamus in the Clark County District Court. The purpose was to have the court order Ferguson to register Hansen so he can vote.
Nevada law states that the “County Clerk shall require a person to submit official identification as proof of residence and identity, such as a driver’s license or other official document before registering him.”
Hansen presented a diploma from high school and a birth certificate, but Ferguson demanded a Social Security card, driver’s license, or a state ID card.
Hansen does not have those items and in his petition to the court his attorney stated, “therefore, he presented alternative identification to the Registrar of Voters, but his right to register to vote was refused and denied by the county registrar of voters.”
Hansen was more surprised than anyone when his petition was granted by the court. “I didn’t think I’d win,” he said. On Oct. 19, the court ordered Ferguson to register Hansen to vote, and he now plans to cast his first ballot on Nov. 3.
This may be just the first of many battles ahead for Hansen. He does drive a car, and does not plan to get a license.
“The government has no right to regulate who can and cannot drive unless they have proven themselves to be a danger to the community and have been convicted by 12 informed jurors,” wrote Hansen in an e-mail message to WorldNetDaily.
“Assuming that everyone is already a danger and by telling us we must have a license to drive is known better as ‘prior restraint’ and according to the U.S. Supreme Court is unconstitutional.”
Hansen also objects to the current law which will implement a national ID card on Oct. 1, 2000. He says that Congress passed the law using illegal immigration control as the excuse.
“The even more ironic twist is that most of the illegal immigrants coming here are filtering from Mexico trying to reap the socialist benefits offered by the federal government. Welfare, government schools, health care, social security, etc. If you want to stop illegal immigration bring back the American way of work hard and succeed as opposed to show up and leech off the tax payers,” wrote Hansen.
He concluded his e-mail by saying, “There is nothing they can ever do to make me surrender my personal freedom, nothing. I don’t know a lot of people who exercise freedom to the point of fanaticism like I do. I will not pay federal income tax, I will not be marked my their unconstitutional anti-Christ numbers. I will not take any of their socialist benefits. I will not bow before any bureaucracy. I will not surrender my God-given freedom to those bastards for any reason.”
David Bresnahan is a contributing editor of WorldNetDaily.com, and is the author of “Cover Up: The Art and Science of Political Deception.” E-mail David Bresnahan
© 1998 Western Journalism Center
“There have been far bigger messes and/or scandals in ballot access in the LP. Look at the fiascos in Pennsylvania and Oklahoma in 2012. Why is it that Tom Knapp doesn’t bring up any of that”
Well, for one thing I didn’t give a tinker’s damn about LP ballot access in 2012.
I brought up stuff I remembered being discussed here at IPR, precisely because it would be familiar to readers at IPR.
But thanks for reinforcing my point: If you’re looking for a reason to suspect someone of something, you’ll probably be able to come up with such a reason.
Denver Spy Files Target Libertarian Party
http://www.freecolorado.com/2002/09/spyfiles.html
The Denver, CO police department got caught (by an ACLU law suit) keeping spy files on the Libertarian Party back in the early 2000’s.
I wonder how many other police departments and other government agencies are keeping spy files on the Libertarian Party.
Fusion Center Director – We Do Not Spy on Americans Only Anti-Government Americans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4CZrbuo4UI
“Thomas L. Knapp June 6, 2014 at 7:04 am
Paulie,
In retrospect, I owe you an apology for bringing up matters that have long since been segregated to their own threads because Andy can’t resist writing a goddamn book about them every time they’re mentioned. Sorry about that.
My POINT in bringing up those matters is that people on EITHER side of them could plausibly cite them as indicators of infiltration/sabotage by an external enemy.”
There have been far bigger messes and/or scandals in ballot access in the LP. Look at the fiascos in Pennsylvania and Oklahoma in 2012. Why is it that Tom Knapp doesn’t bring up any of that, but he brings up old stuff that was not even LP related, stuff that was really a bunch of hot air over nothing, and an issue which has little relevance to ballot access?
The end validity rate in Pennsylvania was 46%. This means that over half of the signatures that the Libertarian Party paid for were not valid. So this cost the party what, around $50,000 spent on invalid signatures. You expect to get some invalid ones, but not over half of them, and certainly not on a state wide petition (it is not like the petition was for a gerrymandered congressional district, but even then, I’d expect a higher validity rate than that).
And Tom is focusing on small handful of voter registrations (maybe 100, probably not much more, and maybe less) from 15 years ago that were processed as valid, even though they had false SSN’s on them (the state had to process them as valid because the rest of the information was correct, and considering that the SSN was not legally required to register to vote), which only got put on after the LP State representative changed the terms of the deal ex post facto (as in a breach of contract), and misrepresented the law by claiming that SSN’s were mandatory to be a registered voter. Hell, even if none of those registrations had been processed as valid, having maybe 100 voter cards rejected would be a much smaller problem than having over 20,000 petition signatures rejected.
Heck, I know of occasions where there were people working LP ballot access petitions who brought in validity rates in the 30’s, 20’s, and even teens, as in 70-80 plus % of the signatures were not valid, and they got paid in full.
How about the times when the Libertarian Party advanced money to mercenary petitioners, and then they never produced the signatures, and never returned the money? Yes, this has happened, more than once. It happened in 2012.
How about the times when non-libertarian mercenary petitioners forged signatures on LP petitions? This has happened too, in more than one state. I’m not aware of anyone ever getting prosecuted for it, but if so it is because nobody bothered to pursue it.
How about the time a noted LP fundraiser was conducting a petition drive, and he and a person from a state party stole money that was supposed to go to pay petition circulators, and then the fundraiser just abandoned the project and went on to other things, and left the petitioners unpaid for months and left the job unfinished? Nothing was ever done to this person, they continued to get LP work funneled to them after this, and you could in fact say they got off “scott” free.
How about the occasions where the LP has had literal bums, alcoholics, and crackheads out on the streets hustling for signatures? This really gives the party a good image in the eyes of the public.
How about the idiots the LP has hired who can’t even pronounce the name of the party, and have gone around calling it the Liberal Party, or the Liberation Party?
How about the times that the LP has had non-libertarian mercenary petitioners out on the streets, misrepresenting the LP ballot access petitions to get people to sign, by saying things like, “Sign the petition to Increase the Minimum Wage!” or, “Sign the petition to Keep Jobs in America!” or some other line of bullshit?
How about the non-libertarian mercenary petitioners who were intentionally working the LP ballot access petition as if it were a plebiscite, which in petitioner lingo, means that they were working it as if the people signing did not have to be registered to vote in whatever state where these incidents occurred (like Illinois in 2012), as in they were padding their numbers by getting bad signatures just so they could bilk the LP for more money?
I could go on with more, but my point here is that it is funny how Tom doesn’t bring up any of this stuff.
“What did Gary Nolan do for which he should have apologized?”
If I had to pick one thing, it would be for lending the credibility of the Libertarian Party’s presidential front-runner to a pro-war, anti-immigration conservative Republican organization called “Free The Eagle” by joining its board, and promoting the fact that he had joined its board, during his campaign. Instead he defended his affiliation with that organization while simultaneously quietly claiming to have resigned from its board.
But there were several things he could have done differently. His campaign manager publicly blamed me for torpedoing him at the national convention, but Nolan himself loaded the torpedoes. I just pulled the trigger and put those torpedoes in the water at the right time.
Thomas Knapp said: ” (Side note: If Gary Nolan had been able to bring himself to say that JUST ONCE, any time up to the 2004 LP National Convention, he would probably have won the presidential nomination)”
What did Gary Nolan do for which he should have apologized?
Paulie,
Once again, I didn’t drag this stuff out to put you down — in fact, I think you handled yourself well when it was a topic of discussion. “I fucked up, sorry about that, it won’t happen again” should be good enough to most people for most things and it certainly is from you, on this, to me. (Side note: If Gary Nolan had been able to bring himself to say that JUST ONCE, any time up to the 2004 LP National Convention, he would probably have won the presidential nomination)
And once again, my POINT, regarding how to figure out who might be a government agent provocateur, is that it’s hard to figure out because there’s ALWAYS something to point to as “evidence.” Arguments over strategy, mistakes that people make, etc. are easily converted into ammunition for “demonstrating” evil intent.
No worries. It may be news to some new(er) people but, while I don’t introduce myself by rattling off every bad thing I have ever done I don’t run or hide from those things either. I do also apologize for perpetrating the excessive discussion of segregated subject matter.
I agree with your point. Saboteurs could be on any side in internal party matters, playing different and sometimes contradictory roles (they have to be hard to recognize).
And in some cases, though, that may well be the case that they are intentionally making the party weak. We don’t necessarily know what those are.
In fact, in some cases saboteurs may put fuel on the fire of more than one side to increase the internal strife.
It was on ballot initiatives. Got strung out on hard drug relapse and fell under bad influence.
As Andy said, I’ve done a lot of good things before and since, and as I have readily admitted, many other bad things in my life. I’ve went to a lot of different extremes that very few people go to, much less the same person.
Paulie,
In retrospect, I owe you an apology for bringing up matters that have long since been segregated to their own threads because Andy can’t resist writing a goddamn book about them every time they’re mentioned. Sorry about that.
My POINT in bringing up those matters is that people on EITHER side of them could plausibly cite them as indicators of infiltration/sabotage by an external enemy. And the same is true on most other strategic questions with two or more sides within the LP. When you’re arguing that your approach is correct and the other guy’s approach is incorrect, it’s not a giant leap from there to the other guy’s approach being INTENTIONALLY incorrect: “He’s not just wrong, he’s being wrong because he’s trying to prang the party.”
LOL. Didn’t know me, myself and I was a “they” or that my identity in this regard was a secret. It’s also pretty apparent who some of the other people you refer to are, and the matters have been discussed on IPR before, so why act like their names are a state secret?
Formenting very extremely nasty internal bickering sounds like an obvious one.
Correct. To be well camouflaged is part of the infiltration game plan. If all infiltrators acted the same they would be easy to spot, and therefore less effective. So, they have to not be too predictable.
Much smaller groups than LP get heavily infiltrated. And the LP has the potential to be much bigger, which may be part of the reason to infiltrate.
All opposition groups of any size get routinely infiltrated and monitored, which is not exactly news.
Same person as CLC. Yet to be determined what other names this person has been posting under.
Tom Knapp said: “oh, by the way, it’s OK to lie as long I get PAID, because I’m not a MERCENARY’ routine somewhat annoying.”
I never said such a thing.
“Thomas L. Knapp June 5, 2014 at 6:55 am
Andy,
The next time I criticize petitioners as such will be the first time. But yes, I will admit that I do find your ‘everybody who does it just for the money is a MERCENARY, but PAYMEPAYMEPAYMPAYME and oh, by the way, it’s OK to lie as long I get PAID, because I’m not a MERCENARY’ routine somewhat annoying.”
You may find it “annoying,” but there is truth to it. You’d probably understand if you actually spent a few months on the road doing this type of work.
What is wrong with a person working on causes that they agree with or are neutral on, and then getting paid for said work? Why can’t a person be both an activist and an entrepreneur at the same time?
Do you not see a difference between a person who works for causes where they agree or are neutral, and one who will work on anything for money, and they put no moral/ethical judgment on whether the cause is a good cause or a bad cause, as in whether it is for more liberty or less liberty?
Incidentally, I just got word yesterday that there is a Top Two Primary initiative petition drive that is paying in Oregon. There are paid petitioners who are working on it right now. If this initiative passes, it will do to minor party and independent candidates in Oregon what Top Two Primary has done in California and Washington.
What do you think of people who work on the Top Two initiative petition drive? Would you consider this to be a noble cause?
I know that there were petitioners who worked on the Top Two Primary initiative in Arizona who have also worked on Libertarian Party stuff.
How about the people who work as petition blockers, especially those who worked as petition blockers against the petition to Recall Sheriff Joe Arpaio last year in Arizona, or the people who worked as petition blockers against initiatives to put Spending Limits on state governments or to reduce or repeal a tax?
Did you know that there have actually been petition drives in some places to shut down Medicinal Marijuana centers, as in to drive them out of whatever city or county? What do you think of the people who run out and work on a petition drive like that?
If you knew that a petitioner was working on say a blocking campaign against a petition drive to Recall Sheriff Joe Arpaio, or say they were working on a Top Two Primary initiative, or say they were working on a petition drive to run Medicinal Marijuana centers out of some city or county, would you keep this person high up on your list of people to call to work on Libertarian Party projects? Do you think that people who work on crappy, anti-liberty stuff ought to be rewarded, or do you think that there ought to be consequences for such actions?
Now I could see bringing in anyone who can carry clip boards and petition sheets if it is some kind of last minute situation where you have a good chance of not making the ballot, but these situations do not and should not happen very often with the LP, and frankly, if ballot access were run better in the LP, situations like this would almost never happen, or maybe even never happen.
Andy,
The next time I criticize petitioners as such will be the first time. But yes, I will admit that I do find your “everybody who does it just for the money is a MERCENARY, but PAYMEPAYMEPAYMPAYME and oh, by the way, it’s OK to lie as long I get PAID, because I’m not a MERCENARY” routine somewhat annoying.
TK, yes, 1 and 2 track for me. Especially in the early 70s, I could imagine that the Feds’d would at least check out the “challengers” of the “cult.” It sounds like something that might lead to a threat to domestic tranquility.
#3 seems far fetched, but possible, too. Andy’s “logic would dictate that there probably were others” seems quite overstated to me.
Tom Knapp said: “Exactly as many as I said I was going to collect — zero.”
It is really easy to sit back and criticize people who travel around the country gathering signatures on petitions, enduring weather (heat, cold, wind, rain, snow, sleet, etc…), hassles from the police, bureaucrats, security guards, store managers, etc…, dealing with the general public, many of whom are apathetic, and some of whom are hostile, incurring travel expenses, and then to top it off, there is dealing with petition coordinators and petition proponents who are not always honest people, plus there are backstabbing petition circulators as well. It is a cut throat business.
I’m one of the people who did the hard work necessary to place the Medicinal Marijuana issue on the ballot in Florida. I had a really nasty run in with a cop in front of the DMV (aka-the County Tax Collectors office) in Lake Mary. A “Robocop” with some kind of European accent (I think he was a Russian immigrant who had become a cop) tried to take my cell phone and clip boards, and if I had not quickly retreated, I think it would have gotten really ugly, as in worse than the incident that happened to me in Maryland. Some asshole with a British accent called the cops on me at a public art festival in Cape Corral. Fortunately, the cops there were more reasonable, and did not do anything to me and ended up leaving. This British asshole called the cops on me because he said that I was “promoting drugs” and therefore I should have been arrested, and that I was a “disgrace” for promoting drugs. I stood outside and endured some cold (by Florida standards), windy days in Daytona Beach and Ormond Beach, and I endured some unseasonably hot (by my standards in recent years) weather in Cape Corral and Estero. I had to deal with the shitty way the petition coordinators ran that petition drive, particularly the last few days, when they shoved a bunch of petitioners in Nassau County, which is the county north of Duval County (where Jacksonville is located). Nassau County is one of the least populated counties in Florida. They had something like 20 petitioners working in Nassau County, and like 12 or 15 petitioners working around Fernandina Beach and Yulee, which was way too many people. The petition was not fresh when we got there (as in a lot of people had already signed it), and given that there were too many petitioners crammed into a low population area, it was hard to make any money, even though the petition was paying $3.50 per signature. The last week I worked there basically sucked. I made money the first couple of weeks or so that I was there, but the last few days I did not really make anything, as in I just covered my expenses. It was not for a lack of trying though. Every petitioner I talked to those last few days in Nassau County was pissed off at the coordinators for the asshole way they ran that drive. Really, the entire petition drive was run in jackass manner. I’m glad I was only there towards the end of it.
“Between you and me and the fencepost, I MAY vote for it. I’m on the fence about registering. I’m thinking about doing it because it will help me get ‘documented’ for other purposes, and if I do that I may go ahead and go down and vote for medical marijuana and Adrian Wyllie this November, but it’s a tough one. I concluded that voting is a waste of time at best and counter-productive at worst, and I’m still not convinced that that conclusion is wrong.”
I’m sympathetic with the non-voting anarchist argument. Yeah, the government sucks, and we should not have to seek permission to be free. Unfortunately, most of the public either does not agree with this line of thinking, or this line of thinking has not even crossed their minds.
I see two reasons for libertarians to engage in electoral politics:
1) This is what most of the public pays attention to. Most people are not going to read books on philosophy, or listen to Free Domain Radio podcasts online. Libertarians getting involved in electoral politics means that libertarians can confront the public with libertarian issues in a place where the public is actually paying attention, and that is in electoral politics.
2) Damage control. Sometimes libertarians win at the polls. Sometimes libertarian issues win at the polls, Sometimes lobbying efforts pay off. These victories may generally be small, but if they make life less bad for some people then it is better than nothing. The cops are not going to listen to you spouting philosophy. You spouting philosophy is not going to stop them from putting somebody in jail or prison for the use of marijuana for medicinal purposes. Getting the law changed through the initiative process will stop some people from going to jail or prison, and it will help people who are suffering due to an ailment or injury get some much needed relief.
Tom Knapp said: “The fact that filling out a field is optional does not make filling it out falsely ‘not a criminal offense.'”
It was not a criminal offense. No charges were ever pressed, and the New Mexico election officials ended up admitting that it did not matter what was in the SSN box because that field was not mandatory, as in it did not have to be filled in at all and the registration forms still counted.
If it had been a criminal offense, the New Mexico election officials would have pressed charges. You’d best believe that if any of the MANDATORY fields had been falsified, such as the signatures, the dates of birth, the place of birth, the address, and the YES answers to, “Are you an American citizen?” and, “Are you over the age of 18?,” there would have been charges pressed.
Voter registration forms usually have boxes for phone numbers, but this part does not have to be filled in. A person could leave the phone number box blank, or put in an incorrect phone number, or have a phone number that is their number and does work, but then later have it disconnected, and none of these things disqualify the voter registration form.
The voter registration forms in California ask for an email address, or at least they did as of the last time I worked there, which was in 2011. The email address is not mandatory. People can leave it blank, fill in an email address that bounces, or is not even a real email address, or they could even put somebody else’s email address, and it does not disqualify the voter registration form.
Election officials like to prosecute people for fraud, especially if they can prosecute somebody for fraud who is working on something that the political establishment, or whichever of the two major parties has more power in a given state, does not like. Neither major party likes the Libertarian Party. If the election officials in New Mexico had thought that they had a charge that could stick, they would have pressed that charge, but they knew that they did not have anything. They even sent out an investigator to see if any fraud had gone on in obtaining registrations, and their investigator could not find any evidence of fraud. If they had, there would have been charges.
I could cite incidents where real fraud did take place, such as on some Republican voter registration drives in California. There were incident where people got prosecuted and went to jail.
(There really ought to be law suits filed to remove even asking for the last 4 digits of Social Security Numbers from voter registration forms. This is not needed to verify identity or eligibility to vote. The real reason it has been added to voter registration forms so more government agencies (state and county election offices) will have people’s SSN’s, so they can then share this information with the IRS (who use it as another means of going after people for taxes) and other government agencies. Just in the 14 years that I’ve been working in ballot access, I’ve seen states change their voter registration forms to where at one time in California and Alabama (for just two examples) it was easy to tell that the last 4 digits of the SSN were optional, as in it clearly stated it on the form in places where the person registering to vote could see that it was optional, to redesigning the forms so it appears that the people registering have to fill in the last 4 digits of their SSN in order to register to vote, even though it is still optional. I have actually called up election offices, and after much discussion, got them to admit to me that the last 4 digits of the SSN box is optional, as in a person does not have to fill that in to become a registered voter. The couple of times I did this I had to press the issue and talk to more than one person to get an admission of this.)
There is not always fire where there is an alarm. Sometimes people set off false alarms, or make a bigger deal about something than it really was. This is old news (15 years ago). The person in question has not even worked on an LP drive in over 4 years.
Get some new material, Tom.
Andy,
There’s no need to get all defensive — I was offering up examples of just how subjective it is to try and evaluate who might be an informant/infiltrator or why.
I have absolutely nothing against Paulie and didn’t know that the Oregon thing wasn’t LP-related. In fact, I have personally recommended him to people talking about petitioning campaigns SINCE I found out about it.
The main thing I would disagree with you on is this:
“The filling in of random numbers in Social Security number boxes back in 1999 in New Mexico was NOT a criminal offense, because the Social Security Number box was an optional field”
The fact that filling out a field is optional does not make filling it out falsely “not a criminal offense.” As an off-the-cuff example, I don’t have to tell anyone whether or not I’m a police officer, but if I tell them that I am when I am not, I’m breaking the law (impersonating a police officer).
“How many petition signatures did you end up collecting on the Medicinal Marijuana petition in Florida?”
Exactly as many as I said I was going to collect — zero.
Between you and me and the fencepost, I MAY vote for it. I’m on the fence about registering. I’m thinking about doing it because it will help me get “documented” for other purposes, and if I do that I may go ahead and go down and vote for medical marijuana and Adrian Wyllie this November, but it’s a tough one. I concluded that voting is a waste of time at best and counter-productive at worst, and I’m still not convinced that that conclusion is wrong.
Thomas Knapp said: “but make sure that those efforts were pointed in the direction of e.g. petitioners getting jailed for election fraud in Oregon,”
The petition drive in question in Oregon years ago (more than a decade) was not a Libertarian Party petition drive. The individual in question did serve time in jail, and since then has done very good work, including lots of volunteer work for the LP. Were they wrong in the past? Sure, but they did their time, and, as I said, have done lots of good work, both paid and volunteer, since they.
Ironically, there are quite a few people who have worked on Libertarian Party projects since then, who have stolen money, lied to the public to get people to sign petitions (which is illegal, although it is something that rarely gets prosecuted), forged signatures, intentionally collected signatures on petitions that they knew were not going to count as valid just so they could bilk Libertarian Party donors out of more money, and who have gotten away with these things, either because they did not get caught, or they did get caught and nobody bothered pursue charges against them, or even file law suits against them. I could name people who literally defrauded the Libertarian Party out of money, and some of these individuals were hired back, even though they never returned the money. Oh, and there is also the former LP Political Director who not only mismanaged multiple petition drives which lead to these drives failing, but who also solicited the destruction of ballot access petition signature via setting them on fire (“literally” in his own words), “whether the signatures had been paid for or not” (once again, in his own words), which is a crime because A) It is a criminal offense to destroy ballot access petition signatures on an active petition (and note that a validity check showed that the batch of signatures had a validity rate of 80%, which is good), and B) Asking others to commit a crime is a crime, which is known as Solicitation of a Crime. The former LP Political Director in question was eventually let go, but it was months after the petition season was over for that election cycle. The former LP Political Director in question then went on to work for Free & Equal, but was fired there for causing a bunch of problems during petition drives in Texas (for the Green Party) and Georgia (for a couple of independent candidates), and is no longer involved with ballot access. Prior to getting hired as Political Director, this individual was on the LNC payroll getting paid $1,200 per month to “track” LP candidates, only the candidates had to contact him in order to get tracked, and there were very few candidates that were ever listed, which basically meant that they got paid around $100 to $200 for each candidate that was on the Candidate Tracker each month, and given the little amount of work involved, this person was basically bilking LP donors for in the neighborhood of $100 to $200 per hour, maybe more, for the little amount of work they did.
I know darn well that the LP has hired plenty of people who have done shady things, both on LP projects, as well as on projects that were not Libertarian Party, or who had done shady things outside of politics. Some of the stories some people here will know about and others are stories about which most people here will not know. Some of them are things for which people were prosecuted, and others got away with it.
“getting caught forging Social Security numbers on registration cards in New Mexico,”
The filling in of random numbers in Social Security number boxes back in 1999 in New Mexico was NOT a criminal offense, because the Social Security Number box was an optional field, as the person registering could have left it blank and the registration would have still been processed as valid. The only reason the person working on the registration drive did this was because the LP State Chair changed the terms of the deal AFTER the cards had already been collected, by telling the person that they would only get paid on cards where people filled in the Social Security Number, even though it was not mandatory, the LP State Chair had mistakenly thought that it was mandatory, however, the LP State Chair only issued this edict to the person working in Albuquerque, and never bothered to mention it to the person working in Las Cruces, who was paid immediately on all cards whether the person registering people to vote had cards with the SSN box filled in or not. The person working in Albuquerque had already been working on the drive and already been paid on cards whether the SSN box was filled in or not previously in New Mexico, and it was never even brought up as an issue, that is until the LP State Chair changed the terms AFTER this individual had already collected the registrations under the ORIGINAL terms. The individual working in Albuquerque had already researched the law and had found out that the SSN box was optional, not mandatory, but the LP State Chair would not listen to this person and insisted that they would not get paid on any cards that lacked the SSN even though this was never told to the person working registrations in Las Cruces). The person working in Albuquerque had collected a stack of registrations where they had left it up to the person registering as to whether or not they would fill in the SSN, and somewhere around 70% of the people had filled it in on their own. The remaining 30% were left blank, but due the to the State Chair changing the terms by saying that they would not pay for those cards, and not being able to afford to wait several weeks or months to get paid where they’d have to prove that the cards were processed even though they lacked an SSN, or possibly risking never getting paid on these cards even though they were valid, this individual panicked and filled in random numbers in the boxes of the approximately 30% of the cards where the voter left them blank.
In spite of the controversy caused by the random numbers in the boxes of approximately 30% of the registrations collected for that turn in of registrations, the random numbers in those boxes DID NOT DISQUALIFY any of those registrations, because the Social Security Number box on the voter registrations was NOT mandatory for the registration to be processed as valid, it was an optional field. Having an SSN has NOTHING to do with voting, and is in fact not a legal requirement to register to vote. It has been added to registrations as a way for government agencies to get more data on people, and to share that data with the IRS and other agencies. The New Mexico election department was actually sued for asking for complete SSN’s on voter registrations after this and they LOST the law suit, and had to change the form to asking only for the last 4 digits of the SSN, and yes, this field is still OPTIONAL, not mandatory.
Tom Knapp was told about what really happened in this 15 year old story a bunch of times, yet he keeps bringing it up as if he had never heard it before, and as if it is a current event.
“or loudly proclaiming that anyone who doesn’t believe Dick Cheney personally pushed the plunger that detonated fixed charges in the World Trade Center is a FOOL.”
This topic rarely comes up in the course of petitioning for ballot access. I was recently in Illinois petitioning for the Libertarian Party, and it came up one time when I was there, and that is when a person came up and asked me about it. They asked me something like, “Where does the Libertarian Party stand on what really happened on 9/11?” or something like that. I responded with something along the lines of, “The party has not taken an official stance on this, but myself and other Libertarians think that 9/11 was an inside job, but there are others in the party who buy into the official government story, however, the party has taken stands against the domestic police state that has grown after 9/11, such as opposition to the Patriot Act, the Department of Homeland Security, the TSA, the NDAA of 2012, and NSA domestic spying. The party has also taken stands against US military imperialism in Iraq and other parts of the world as well.” The person who asked this question was a 9/11 Truther, and they signed the petition enthusiastically after this.
Anyone who is really into 9/11 Truth will almost always sign an LP ballot access petition, unless they are not registered to vote, or are registered to vote in another state, or they are somebody who has given up on voting because they believe that the system is too corrupt.
Also, I never said that Dick Cheney personally pushed the plunger that detonated fixed charges in the World Trade Center. I did say that I think that Dick Cheney was involved in it at a high level, and that he was in the command center on 9/11 where he prevented fighter planes from intercepting the plane, or whatever it was (probably a drone in my opinion), that hit the Pentagon.
I don’t see how this is relevant to ballot access given that the topic does not come up very frequently during the course of a petition drive. Topics that come up far more frequently during the course of petition drives are marijuana legalization and gun rights. Everyone has their pet issues and it can vary from person to person. I have actually noticed a big increase over people who know already know what the Libertarian Party is over the last 7 years as compared to the first 7 years that I was involved in ballot access. When I encounter people who do not already know what the Libertarian Party is, and who inquire about it, I will usually say something along the lines of, “It is a political party that supports more individual freedom on both economic issues, as well as civil liberties issues. So more freedom for individuals and less government control over people’s lives.” I almost always have Libertarian Party pamphlets and fliers with me while gathering signatures, and I usually have copies of the World’s Smallest Political Quiz on a separate clip board. If somebody asks and my oral explanation is not enough to get them to sign, or if there are other people that I’m trying to talk to at the same time, I will usually show them a flier that has a copy of the World’s Smallest Political Quiz and say something along the lines of, “A person who agrees with all or most of these statements falls into the Libertarian Quadrant of the political spectrum.” and then I point to the Libertarian Quadrant on the Nolan Chart. If a person acts like they are interested I’ll give them a flier with the Quiz to take home with them. There are a lot of people out there who know that there is a problem with the so called “Two Party System” and are disgusted by the Democrats and Republicans, and they will sign to get pretty much any alternative on the ballot. Others will sign just to help the petition circulator out because they see you out there busting your butt to get signatures. There are even a few Democrats and Republicans out there who will sign out of fairness. However, there are plenty of other people who will not sign because they do not care, they are not registered to vote, they are not able to register to vote, they are Democrats or Republicans who do not want any competition on the ballot (there are a lot of these people out there, and some of them get quite nasty and are usually the ones who will try to get petitioners kicked out of spots and will call the police on petitioners), or who just don’t like Libertarians (Note that I do find that most Green Party and most Constitution Party supporters will sign Libertarian Party ballot access petitions, but of course there are exceptions to this.). People who are registered to vote with no political party, also known as Independent, or Un-Enrolled, or Unaffiliated, or Decline To State A Political Party, are more likely to sign Libertarian Party ballot access petitions than are those who are registered Democratic Party or Republican Party.
There are lots of people in the Libertarian Party who agree with me about 9/11, some have gathered petition signatures before, others have not, some are very vocal about it (like Ernie Hancock and Jim Duensing to name a couple), while others agree but are less vocal about it.
Regardless of what one thinks about 9/11, it does not have much to do about ballot access because it does not come up very often in the course of a ballot access drive.
It is pretty obvious to me that Tom, who is no longer even a member of the Libertarian Party, does not know much about ballot access, and has no clue who most of the ballot access petitioners are. It is funny how he brings up things that are old and/or of little relevance, yet does not bring up far bigger issues, such as the ballot access failures that happened in 2008 and 2012 (like in Oklahoma, etc…), and the near failure in Pennsylvania (where over half of the signatures that the Libertarian Party paid for were not even valid, and where the party barely survived the challenge, and only survived where because the party paid for a bunch more signatures than what had originally been budgeted to pay for), or how about the non-libertarian mercenaries who were out MISREPRESENTING the LP ballot access petitions (as in LYING to get people to sign), by telling people that it was a petition to “Increase the Minimum Wage!” or to “Keep Jobs in America” or some other line of bullshit, or how about the non-libertarian mercenaries who were padding their numbers by “working the petition like a plebiscite” (which means they were having anyone sign, even people who they knew were not registered to vote, because they were underage, or from different states, or were felons, or etc…) just so they could bilk the party for more money, or how about the fact that there has been so little effort put into getting actual libertarians out to gather petition signatures and large sums of money have been un-necessarily paid out to non-libertarian mercenaries who’d be just as happy to work on a tyrannical campaign, such as putting a Top Two Primary initiative on the ballot, or putting an initiatives on the ballot to increase or create a new tax, or to enact a new gun control law, or to work as a blocker for Sheriff Joe Arpaio (as in INTERFERING with people who were gathering signatures on a petition to recall Sheriff Joe Arpaio from office, with the intent being to prevent people from signing the petition so Sheriff Joe Arpaio could stay in office), as they are to work on a petition drive for the Libertarian Party, or how about the Republican provocateur/saboteur who keeps getting hired to petition for the LP, even though most people in the LP who know who this person is can’t stand this person, and even though they are overrated as a petitioner (as in they could easily be replaced)?
The issues that I brought up above are all FAR BIGGER and FAR MORE RELAVENT issues than what Tom brought up, yet funny how Tom doesn’t talk about any of this stuff.
If anything, I think that a government plant would run ballot access in a way that makes it look like the party is trying to get ahead, but at the same time making sure that little outreach takes place during the drives, and that a few drives fail here and there, or run over cost unnecessarily.
The LAST thing that the government would want, would be more outreach oriented, effectively run petition drives, which is what Paul and I have been advocating for several years now.
Really, outside myself, Paul, Bob Lynch, Jake Witmer, and a small handful of others (although some may not be active as petitioners anymore), there really are not that many people doing any field outreach/party building activities during the course of petition drives. The majority of people who work on LP ballot access drives are not even Libertarians, and don’t give a rat’s ass about the LP or libertarianism in general, beyond getting paid, and would be just as happy to work for a cause that is anti-liberty as long as they get paid.
So Tom, if you want to criticize me, or whatever other few Libertarians do any paid petitioning work, keep in mind that it all goes down hill after us.
Oh, and my offer for you to come out in the field with me somewhere and work on a petition drive still stands. I understand that you live in Florida now, correct? If so, I was there for about the last 3 weeks or so of the Medicinal Marijuana petition drive. I worked areas from Fernandina Beach to Jacksonville, down to Ormond Beach and Daytona Beach, west of there to Orlando and north of Orlando to Seminole County (where I worked in Sanford and Lake Mary), and then further west to Bradenton, then down to Sarasota, then down to Fort Meyers and Cape Corral, and all the way down to Estero (not in this order, the first place I worked in Florida on this occasion was actually Orlando). I did not have any good job to go to after the Medicinal Marijuana petition drive ended in Florida, so I hung out there for a few weeks after that and enjoyed the weather and some of the sites. How many petition signatures did you end up collecting on the Medicinal Marijuana petition in Florida?
Yes death is funny.
LOL, Jed!
A very respectful response from a very respectful individual.
“Hey Jed why do you have to constantly cowardly attack Lyndon LaRouche?”
He’s nuts. Extremely homophobic & anti-Semitic. Blames all the world’s problems on the Queen of England. However, I’d be more likely to support one of his followers over the current regime. I don’t find them any more objectionable than, say, social conservatives, socialists, communists, white nationalists, etc. I do wish they’d run outside of the duopoly instead of as Democrats, but that’s more of my own bias.
If anything he fascinates me.
“We now see how right he was about impeaching Obama.”
Yep. Obama should be impeached, on that we agree.
“Please tell me why anyone would even want your ‘respect’.”
Because I don’t troll IPR. Now kindly do the world a huge favor; pull your bottom lip over your head & swallow.
Hey Jed why do you have to constantly cowardly attack Lyndon LaRouche? We now see how right he was about impeaching Obama. Please tell me why anyone would even want your “respect”.
There are three kinds of people in this world; those who make things happen, those who watch things happen and those who wonder what the hell is happening!
It really doesn’t matter whether the ignoble ninety percent are aware or not. It WILL happen.!!!
I would really hope to see it in my lifetime, but I’m not holding out much hope.
“It isn’t obvious only to those who fail to read history.”
Maybe so. But that’s probably what, 90% of the population?
” (and in fact it’s not obvious, at least in some quarters) that LPers aren’t about to bring out the Uzis, bazookas and private nukes and start throwing down.”
Don’t be too hasty to make that judgment! It isn’t obvious only to those who fail to read history. As more and more libertarians become involved in gun rights organizations, Oath Keepers, etc.
while our liberties are being diluted and neutralized:it is clear that the only people who stand to gain from the illusion that there will be no violent reaction are those who wish to maintain the status quo.
Robert,
I can think of a number of things that government “infiltrators” might be doing in the LP.
1) Looking for threats. Yes, believe it or not, the US government does think it sees real threats in and from organizations that most people consider small or minor. To this very day, an informant occasionally gets outed in this or that antiwar group, environmental group, etc.
2) Drawing a paycheck. Remember, the LP was founded in 1971 when the Weather Underground, Black Panthers and other fairly small groups with an alleged penchant for violence loomed pretty large on the horizon. It would have made perfect sense to put infiltrators in place in a new, rather “extreme,” political organization. And as with any government program, once it’s going, it’s a lot easier to just keep it going than to wind it down, even if it has become obvious (and in fact it’s not obvious, at least in some quarters) that LPers aren’t about to bring out the Uzis, bazookas and private nukes and start throwing down.
3) Somewhat less credible than the first two, but: Ensuring continuious ineffectuality. You may recall that the FBI spied on Martin Luther King, Jr. in order to get dirt on him and reduce his effectiveness. Federal agencies are not specifically Republican or Democrat, but they ARE Republican/Democrat — that is, they have a vested interest in maintaining an establishment that keeps them in coffee, donuts and paychecks and can be expected to be used, or to go out on their own hook, to protect that establishment.
What would (3) above entail? Well, that’s where it gets interesting.
Perhaps the infiltrators’ job was to keep the LP “extreme” (and therefore marginal) and they worked behind the scenes to make sure that we nominated people like David Bergland and Michael Badnarik for president … or perhaps it was just the opposite, that the best way to keep the LP marginal was to turn it into “GOP Lite” by pointing it at failed Republican politicians as presidential prospects.
Maybe the infiltrators’ job was to distract the LP from its ballot access efforts … or maybe their job was to really push those efforts, but make sure that those efforts were pointed in the direction of e.g. petitioners getting jailed for election fraud in Oregon, getting caught forging Social Security numbers on registration cards in New Mexico, or loudly proclaiming that anyone who doesn’t believe Dick Cheney personally pushed the plunger that detonated fixed charges in the World Trade Center is a FOOL.
Maybe the infiltrators’ mission was to make sure the LP pissed away much of its money maintaining “prestigious” offices in the Watergate for 20 years. Or maybe their job was to make sure that it left the Watergate to buy real estate in the DC metro area.
Hey, let’s make them extreme open borders folks … that’ll keep’em marginal! No, wait, let’s get them catering to the Know-Nothings so everyone will assume they’re xenophobic nuts.
See what I mean? The problem with the theory that the infiltrators were sent in as, well, “wreckers,” is that pretty much every man Jack has a different theory on what would constitute “wrecking.”
If all we have to go on is what we perceive as the goal or effect of someone’s actions, we can make the case that ANYONE active in the LP just might be a government plant. Unless there’s a way of actually finding out whether they’re getting checks signed by the director of the FBI or whatever, it’s just anybody’s guess.
But that doesn’t mean there aren’t any.
RC asks: “Given the tiny-ness of the LP, I wonder what they hope to gain/accomplish by foiling the challengers of the cult of the omnipotent state.”
If you have to ask what they’re trying to accomplish…then I don’t have the time to explain things to you. Maybe sometime soon I’ll write an article with specifics, but not today.
JP, government-agent infiltrators?
If so, what have these infiltrators done, exactly? Leave their names out of it, just give us a sense of what the feds are doing, if for no other reason so that others can be on guard for similar behaviors elsewhere.
Given the tiny-ness of the LP, I wonder what they hope to gain/accomplish by foiling the challengers of the cult of the omnipotent state.
I won’t get into details, but I absolutely agree with Andy that there are infiltrators, at least in CA, and I’m afraid that they’ve been quite effective. I could name names, but choose not to at this time. I’m doing my best to save Los Angeles County at least, but I have no control over the rest of this state. It’s depressing as hell.
A: If the government would send one infiltrator into the LP in California back in the early 1970?s, logic would dictate that there probably were others, and probably still are others.
me: Dictate? Like it’s a sure thing? How so? Or did you really mean IT’S POSSIBLE THAT there are more infiltrators.
I mean, could be that the one infiltrator (assuming it’s a true account) was sufficient from the spook agency’s perspective. Maybe the one infiltrator reported back to his handlers that the LP is no threat, or somesuch.
“It is not a theory that Glenn Miller was a protected federal informant for the past 24 plus years. Now whether or not he really went on this shooting spree at a Jewish Community Center on his own, or was he put up to it by the feds, or is he being used as a patsy here are other questions that remain unanswered. ”
Indeed.
“Yeah, this could have just been a nut trying to ‘go down in a blaze of glory,’ but isn’t it funny how there are so many incidents that are supposedly carried out by random lone nuts, like the assassinations of JFK and RFK, etc….”
Did you catch the TV special where they hypothesized that JFK was actually killed accidentally by a Secret Service agent? If not I highly recommend it. Has me pretty convinced.
“Also, why is it that so many ‘random lone nuts’ seem to have connections with government intelligence agencies?”
Good question.
On a related note, I’ve gotten some grief on here for attacking conspiracy theorists. When I say conspiracy theorists, I’m talking about the nutjobs who believe things without any evidence to back it up. [See: Lyndon LaRouche] Those who ask legitimate questions, you have my respect.
However, I would say that instead of just postulating theories without a preponderance of evidence, or blindly believing the official story for that matter, that we instead should be willing to say ‘I don’t know’, and be comfortable doing so.
“Jed Ziggler Post authorJune 4, 2014 at 12:48 pm
‘So people don’t find it weird that a self proclaimed white racialist/white nationalist had an Asian wife, became an FBi informant, and got ‘caught in the act’ in the back of a car with a black transvestite prostitute?’
Honestly, no. I’m not completely discounting your theory that the government might be involved somehow, but this isn’t evidence.”
It is not a theory that Glenn Miller was a protected federal informant for the past 24 plus years. Now whether or not he really went on this shooting spree at a Jewish Community Center on his own, or was he put up to it by the feds, or is he being used as a patsy here are other questions that remain unanswered.
“’On the other hand, trying to make sense out of someone like Miller may just be a fool’s errand, because he may just be The Compleat Nut Job in every way.’
Bingo.”
Yeah, this could have just been a nut trying to “go down in a blaze of glory,” but isn’t it funny how there are so many incidents that are supposedly carried out by random lone nuts, like the assassinations of JFK and RFK, etc…. Also, why is it that so many “random lone nuts” seem to have connections with government intelligence agencies?
“Thomas L. Knapp June 4, 2014 at 12:26 pm
Andy,
I don’t see anything you said that I disagree with, beginning with ‘I’ve said for a while that I suspect that the Libertarian Party …’
The LP was born in the Age of COINTELPRO — which never really died, just changed up its names and tactics — and has presumably hosted regime infiltrators/informants/moles ever since.”
It has already been reported that the 1980 Libertarian Party candidate for President, and 1978 Libertarian Party candidate for Governor of California, Ed Clark, did a Freedom of Information Act request on himself back in the early 1980’s, and that he found out that there was a government infiltrator at the first meeting of the Libertarian Party of California, which was back in 1972 I believe. Clark said that the name of the government infiltrator was redacted (as in it was blacked out) in the report, and that he knew everyone who was at that meeting, and that all of them remained active in the LP for years after that (I don’t know if any of them are still in the LP today). So this means that whoever this government infiltrator was (or is), was a person who was in the party for a long time. If the government would send one infiltrator into the LP in California back in the early 1970’s, logic would dictate that there probably were others, and probably still are others.
I’d sure like to get a hold of a list of everyone who was at that LP of California meeting that Ed Clark referred to back from back in the early 1970’s and see if it could be determined through more investigation and process of elimination as to who the government rat at that meeting was.
I’ve got to wonder if the Libertarian Party and movement has been held back from achieving its potential for years, not only held back by ballot access laws, being locked out of debates, gerrymandering of district office boundary lines, lack of coverage from the mainstream media (which is documented to be in bed with the state), campaign finance laws, etc…, but also through outright internal sabotage from government infiltrators.
Paul brought up a really good point in another thread, and that is that the alleged Nazi who frequently trolls here (which could be one of multiple personas this person or person trolls under), has attacked Paul and I as well as a few of the other Libertarians who have done ballot access work, by questioning why would a Nazi care who the Libertarian Party hires to do ballot access work. I certainly would not care who the Nazi Party or some such similar party hires to get them on the ballot. If Paul and myself and the other few actual Libertarians out there who have done or do this type of work were really doing such a horrible job, it would be in the best interest of the Nazi Party, or whatever other such party, or for that matter, any other party that is competition for the LP, for us to keep doing an ineffective job, because that would mean that the LP either would not make the ballot, or would just barely make the ballot in as inefficient a manner as possible. The last thing that a real Nazi style party, or anyone else who is opposed to the LP would want, would be for the Libertarian Party to run more effective ballot access drives, where the party makes the ballot, gets on efficiently (as in with higher validity rates), and greatly increases the amount of on-the-ground field outreach that takes place during the course of ballot access drives (as in handing out more LP fliers, pamphlets, bumper stickers, etc…, and signing more people up for the Libertarian Party contact list, telling more people where local LP meetings are held, starting up or expanding libertarian clubs on college campuses, talking up the party and candidates, properly explaining libertarian stances on issues to people, letting people know about the right of jurors to nullify bad laws, etc…). I think that fact of the matter is that Paul and myself have been two of the leading voices for the Libertarian Party improving its ballot access operations, and that this is why we’ve been attacked.
“So people don’t find it weird that a self proclaimed white racialist/white nationalist had an Asian wife, became an FBi informant, and got ‘caught in the act’ in the back of a car with a black transvestite prostitute?”
Honestly, no. I’m not completely discounting your theory that the government might be involved somehow, but this isn’t evidence.
“On the other hand, trying to make sense out of someone like Miller may just be a fool’s errand, because he may just be The Compleat Nut Job in every way.”
Bingo.
Well, all of it is “weird.”
One of the problems with crazy people is that their actions often DON’T make sense.
Daniel Burros was a Nazi activist. He was also, unbeknownst to his Nazi friends, a Jew.
How many “anti-homosexuality” activists have turned out to be closet homosexuals?
Yes, the informant angle certainly raises questions and those answers could be ugly. It would be nice to know the truth, even if the truth pisses off some people who like to moan about how awful “conspiracy theorists” are.
On the other hand, trying to make sense out of someone like Miller may just be a fool’s errand, because he may just be The Compleat Nut Job in every way.
So people don’t find it weird that a self proclaimed white racialist/white nationalist had an Asian wife, became an FBi informant, and got “caught in the act” in the back of a car with a black transvestite prostitute?
It is not weird that he’s been a protected FBI informant for the past 24 plus years, but then all of a sudden he decides to run into a Jewish Community Center with guns blazing?
It strikes me as weird. Sure, sometimes life can be strange, but I think that there is reason to wonder if Glenn Miller was being used by the feds to whip up more support for more gun control and anti-terrorism laws.
Andy,
I don’t see anything you said that I disagree with, beginning with “I’ve said for a while that I suspect that the Libertarian Party …”
The LP was born in the Age of COINTELPRO — which never really died, just changed up its names and tactics — and has presumably hosted regime infiltrators/informants/moles ever since.
“Nathan Norman June 4, 2014 at 11:44 am
Like the energizer bunny, Andy’s conspiracy theorist mind keeps going and going and going. Wildly entertaining.”
Isn’t “Nathan Norman” another person posting under a fake name?
“Thomas L. Knapp June 4, 2014 at 11:52 am
Nathan,
Just because Andy’s paranoid, that doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get him 🙂
Seriously — yes, he tends to see conspiracies, false flag ops, etc. EVERYWHERE, including places where there’s precisely zero reason to believe they’re there.”
I do not see conspiracies, false flag ops, etc…, everywhere. I base whatever I may say about such subjects based on actual evidence, and if there is a lack of evidence I either will not say anything, or, I will state that I’m speculating.
I’ve said for a while that I suspect that the Libertarian Party and movement has been infiltrated. Do I have a lot of evidence to back this up? I have some, but not enough to where I could come forward with a list of people that I know for sure are infiltrators. I have observed some pretty darn weird behavior over the years though.
It is apparent that IPR has been under Troll attack for several years, and that whoever the Troll or Trolls are, one or more people have been posting under fake names and with anonymizers to cover up their IP address or addresses for years. It is a known fact that the government sends people on to internet message boards to post propaganda and stir up trouble among political activists that are not part of the mainstream. Whoever has been trolling here has clearly had an agenda to discredit some of the LP’s most effective activists, and to discourage Libertarians from engaging in activism, and to try to tie the Libertarian Party in with racist groups, which would be a way to marginalize the party and movement and to dissuade a lot of people from getting involved.
Now the question is, is the person or person’s behind this trolling just doing it for kicks, as in is it just a really bored person with a sick sense of humor, and perhaps some mental problems, or is it a part of a directed sabotage operation that some entity or entities which are either directly a part of, or are some how working with, the government, are behind. I have reasons to suspect that it is part of a directed sabotage operation, but I do not discount that it could just be a bored nut with a sick sense of humor.
It is a documented fact that the government sends infiltrators into various organizations (and there are already reports from back in the 1970’s, 1980’s, and early 1990’s of the government sending undercover agents to Libertarian Party meetings), and it is a documented fact that they pay people to post propaganda online, so what makes anyone think that the Libertarian Party and Independent Political Report are immune to this? It is a documented fact that the government spies on liberty activists as well as any activists in general who are not considered to be a part of the mainstream, and heck, the government even spies on its own people. It came out in a law suit which was reported right here at IPR that the government was spying on http://www.Anti-War.com . You think that the same government that would spy on Anti-War.com would not spy on Independent Political Report? I would not put it past the government to have agents monitoring IPR, and I would not be surprised if they post here either.
Nathan,
Just because Andy’s paranoid, that doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get him 🙂
Seriously — yes, he tends to see conspiracies, false flag ops, etc. EVERYWHERE, including places where there’s precisely zero reason to believe they’re there. But that doesn’t mean they don’t happen or that he can’t ever be right about them happening.
Like the energizer bunny, Andy’s conspiracy theorist mind keeps going and going and going. Wildly entertaining.
The story with Glenn Miller gets even more weird:
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/04/accused-kansas-shooter-was-protected-federal-witness-but-hateful-ways-continued/
“In a series of ensuing interviews with federal and North Carolina investigators, Miller never denied his racist and anti-Semitic views, but claimed he had always denounced violence and illegal activity.
‘Miller wanted nothing more to do with the movement,’ according to an FBI account of an interview in June of 1987. He was ‘willing to turn his back on it in order to return to his family. His problem in the past had been intolerance linked with excessive drinking.’
A month later, in an interview with the North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation, during which he accused two of his former comrades of murder, he described his time on the run from the law as little more than a lark.
‘I was on vacation, flirting with girls and drinking beer and going red-necking,’ Miller told the agents. ‘I love to go out and drink a beer with rednecks…do the Texas Two-Step. I’m a pretty good dancer by the way,’ he said.
SHOCKING ALLEGATIONS
In the course of their investigation, authorities also learned the stunning details of Miller’s arrest a year earlier. Raleigh police officers had caught Miller in the back seat of a vehicle, in mid-act with a black male prostitute masquerading as a woman.
‘It was pretty shocking,’ says McCullough, ‘because of his personal stances that he had taken and what he was now accused on engaging in.’
McCullough says he has read the police report of the incident but declined to comment on the specifics. ‘I would rather not go into the details,’ he said. ‘They’re rather salacious. I think the facts speak for themselves and people can draw their own conclusions about how incongruous that is.’
Miller was not charged in connection with the prostitution arrest and no public record of the incident could be located. But in a recorded phone call with the Southern Poverty Law Center last fall, Miller claimed that he had lured the prostitute to the meeting with the intention of beating him.
Eventually, McCullough, the federal prosecutor, would approve a plea deal with Miller recommending a five-year prison sentence in exchange for his cooperation and testimony against his former compatriots. He would serve less than three years of that sentence at a prison in western New York.”
“Thomas L. Knapp June 4, 2014 at 8:24 am
I suppose it’s possible that Frazier’s actions were part of or pursuant to his “informant” status.
On the other hand, from what little I know of the guy, it also makes sense that he did it:
1) Because he’s old and sick (apparently terminal) and figures the place to get free health care and die in comfort is federal prison; and/or”
As a federal informant, wouldn’t the government give him healthcare? He was on the federal payroll as an informant, so I’d assume that if he needed healthcare the government would have given it to him.
“2) Because he does seem to believe a good deal of the insane crap he spews, apparently became an informant under duress (‘testify/inform or we throw the book at you’) rather than voluntarily (‘hey, I bet the FBI would pay me to tell them things’), and wants to go out with a “look, I really AM a big he-man racist” bang.”
He very well may believe what he says, but on the flip side, as somebody mentioned above, he has (or had since I do not know if he is still married) an Asian wife. He had an Asian wife while at the same time being a white racialist/white nationalist. Having an Asian wife while at the same time being a white racialist/white nationalist seems contradictory to me. I know that there are people who hold contradictory views, and who are hypocrites, but this makes one wonder.
“Of course, there’s no reason all three couldn’t be true. Being a government agent/mole/infiltrator and being crazy as a shithouse rat aren’t mutually exclusive options. And being crazy as a shithouse rat, or otherwise mentally dysfunctional, seems to be a job qualification for the role of patsy (see Reichstag Fire, The).”
Maybe he did want to go out in a “blaze of glory,” but still, I’ve got to wonder if the feds put him up to and/or assisted him with this.
I suppose it’s possible that Frazier’s actions were part of or pursuant to his “informant” status.
On the other hand, from what little I know of the guy, it also makes sense that he did it:
1) Because he’s old and sick (apparently terminal) and figures the place to get free health care and die in comfort is federal prison; and/or
2) Because he does seem to believe a good deal of the insane crap he spews, apparently became an informant under duress (“testify/inform or we throw the book at you”) rather than voluntarily (“hey, I bet the FBI would pay me to tell them things”), and wants to go out with a “look, I really AM a big he-man racist” bang.
Of course, there’s no reason all three couldn’t be true. Being a government agent/mole/infiltrator and being crazy as a shithouse rat aren’t mutually exclusive options. And being crazy as a shithouse rat, or otherwise mentally dysfunctional, seems to be a job qualification for the role of patsy (see Reichstag Fire, The).
http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/170354/kansas-city-shooting-suspect-was-protected-fbi-informant
Check this out, it turns out that Glenn Miller had been working for the federal government as a federal informant since the 1990’s. I’ll tell you what, there is something suspicious about this situation. I am by no means defending Glenn Miller, but isn’t it odd that after several decades of involvement in the white racist/white nationalist movement that he’d “snap,” and do something really stupid like walking into a Jewish Community Center firing a gun? I say stupid because even from his alleged perspective, he’d have to have known that he’d go to prison, and that he would not win any new supporters over to his line of thinking. I would not be a bit surprised if this was another staged event, as in a false flag. Why would anyone stage something like this? Because it would whip up more support for more control laws, and also make gun owners look like racist kooks,
Glenn Miller having been a federal informant makes this look suspicious as hell.
Why Are Domestic Terror Suspects Federal Informants?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxQeliERIDo
I am an ideologue, but not humorless. However, I don’t find your trolling to be funny.
No point in hating trolls, or in assuming their “views” to be genuine.
I don’t hate you, CLC. I may fervently disagree with your views (if you’re being genuine, that is), but I certainly don’t hate you. I think you’re trying to troll this forum & cause disruptions, which is a dick move & why I’ve been harsh to you recently, but if you’d just be you & be funny when it’s appropriate (and you can be very funny), I’d have no problem with you whatsoever.
Deran is so full of hate. It’s sad. God bless your little heart.
Or, CLC, is it that your juvenile obsession with excratory orrifi causes people to consider you a childish boor? Hmmm, better go ask your parent and/or guardian. Godbless, Concerned Hobo!
There’s a lot of hate on IPR from the humorless ideologues that frequent here.
Hate, by its nature devoid of wisdom, never visits upon people peace or prosperity.
It is highly unfortunate that people still practice it in any form.
Condolences to the families of the unfortunate victims of yet another senseless crime.
From the link to the Times article, it seems both grandfther and grandson were very good people.
“Where is Vernon?”
I have been busy with other pursuits. Still lurking here but I have not had much time to comment, especially since half my comments get erased on a completely arbitrary basis. It’s not that I have a problem with engaging anti-White comment communities like yours, if they do not censor my comments, but I have a problem with being allowed to participate freely in this forum and thus have been spending more time elsewhere. Comments as innocuous as this one have been erased many times. I see no rhyme or reason to it. Go ahead and gloat, you “won” the debate in the only possible way that you ever could have. Meanwhile filthy comments like the one at 9:26 pm by Rabid Rabbi Frankel are A-OK here. Consistency!
And no, I am neither Frazier Glenn Miller nor a fan of his. Since you asked.
Unfortunate that there is scum like that in our party. Even more shameful that he is on the ballot as an LP candidate this year in Ohio.
No need to just take my word.
http://onepeoplesproject.com/index.php/en/rogues-gallery/13-m/97-david-macko
http://www.legionnet.lgnsec.nl.eu.org/2012/02/anonymous-a3p-ron-paul-antifascist_3.html shows that he is/was also a member of what was then the American Third Position Party, which now calls itself the American Freedom Party (search for Macko).
I assume Vernon is Frazier Glenn Miller’s sister, although perhaps only in Vernon’s dreams, where Vernon and Frazier Glenn Miller exchange copious amounts of genetic material.
Where is Vernon? Anyone consider the possibility that Glenn Miller is Vernon?
I didn’t know for certain, I had just heard he was. I’ll take your word for it.
There’s nothing alleged about it. He is involved with numerous openly racist groups as well as the LP.
David Macko in Ohio is allegedly a racist.
There was another white supremacist who was a LP candidate in Missouri, but he has run with pretty much every party. Martin Lindstedt. It’s been quit a few years since he claimed to be a libertarian.
“Thomas Knapp April 16, 2014 at 1:44 am
Back in 2006, Miller attempted to run for Congress as a Democrat, then as a Republican, then as a Libertarian in Missouri. All three parties returned his filing fee with a ‘no, thanks.'”
Wow, this guy would have been a DISASTER as a Libertarian Party candidate.
“Jed Ziggler Post authorApril 15, 2014 at 10:41 pm
‘How do you know what he is? Have you done genetic testing on him?’
I believe the closeted gay troll was referring to the fact that many Nazis consider Miller a phony because while espouses making America a white-only nation, he’s married to a Vietnamese woman.”
Now that you mention this, I do remember hearing this about Glenn Miller, and yes, this IS hypocritical for him to espouse white nationalist views while having a Vietnamese wife. I do recall hearing that his first wife was white, but they divorced and that he got married to a Vietnamese woman. One would think that he’d catch a lot of flak for this in the crowds with whom he associates.
“Concerned Libertarian Citizen April 15, 2014 at 11:19 pm
Aryan = blonde hair, blue eyes. No DNA examination necessary.”
I think that it depends on which definition of Aryan one uses, as in a person does not necessarily have to have blonde hair and blue eyes to be an Aryan, nor is a person with blonde hair and blue eyes necessarily an Aryan.
Back in 2006, Miller attempted to run for Congress as a Democrat, then as a Republican, then as a Libertarian in Missouri. All three parties returned his filing fee with a “no, thanks.”
As a member of the Missouri LP’s executive committee, I voted in favor of doing so, but frankly I ended up regretting that vote.
Missouri election law is very clear that anyone who is constitutionally qualified and pays the filing fee can run in any party’s primary. The (Democrat) Secretary of State invented the “if the party returns the filing fee, it was not paid” fiction on the spot for the specific purpose of keeping Miller from running in the Democrat primary. It’s complete bullshit from a legal standpoint. Miller sued, but it was dismissed on technical deficiencies without the issue being reached.
Before this all came about, the Missouri LP’s voters had done a reasonably good job of beating whackjobs on primary day.
Ever since that door was opened, the Missouri LP’s executive committee has just illegally 86ed anyone it doesn’t like from the Libertarian primary ballot — including, one year, in open rebellion against the explicit instructions of the state committee in convention, the previous election’s best-performing candidate for state legislature.
It was a very corrupting event, and the worst part is that I can’t really pin the blame on Miller. We corrupted ourselves, because it was the easy way out.
LOL. Apologize to him for what?
To think, all this time I’ve been ignoring the wrong person. Remind me to apologize to Dave Terry.
Clearly you’ve been beating yourself up about it ever since.
Aryan = blonde hair, blue eyes. No DNA examination necessary.
I know nothing about his wife.
I am not closeted anything. I watched a transsexual beauty pageant on the Howard Stern Show back when he was mentioned as a vice presidential candidate. I initially thought it was disgusting but then I was a little turned on by it. I considered engaging in such activity until I determined it was not healthy. The Bible was right. Personally, I think it is wrong to label me as gay because I do not choose that lifestyle. The idea of sexual orientation is myth. It all comes down to personal preference. I prefer aesthetic women and I believe I was tricked by the Howard Stern Show but now I understand why men become homosexuals.
I assume CLC is also Frazier Glenn Miller’s sister. In those dreams, of course.
God bless you Paulie, I believe you are correct. No doubt Frazier Glenn Miller visited the closeted gay troll in his dream and they exchanged genetic material many times.
Interesting theory, but if I understand the ideology that CLC and Miller share correctly, Miller can still be an “Aryan” and be married to a Vietnamese woman, although that would make him a “race traitor” and, given his rhetoric, a hypocrite. So, I think that the real explanation must be that CLC has sampled, or at least mentally sampled, Miller’s genetic material.
CLC thoroughly sampled Miller’s genetic material over and over again, even if it was only in his dreams.
“How do you know what he is? Have you done genetic testing on him?”
I believe the closeted gay troll was referring to the fact that many Nazis consider Miller a phony because while espouses making America a white-only nation, he’s married to a Vietnamese woman.
“Concerned Libertarian Citizen April 15, 2014 at 7:43 pm
This piece of shit isn’t even Aryan.”
How do you know what he is? Have you done genetic testing on him?
Ah, ok, sure.
No. Vernon is the Nazi troll. He is a low-life. I am only saying this murderer is a hypocrite. He is not even up to the standard he claims to profess.
His punishment should depend on his level of racial purity? Way to show your hand CLC…or is it Vernon?
This piece of shit isn’t even Aryan. He deserves to fry in the electric chair.
I’d be curious to see a picture now. It seems the other mass shooters have the same weird, glassy-eyed look.
And I agree that I hope he never sees freedom for a minute.
Hopefully he will never be let out of prison again.
Although the shooting suspect, Frazier Glenn Miller, was a known racist and anti-Semite with ties to the Ku Klux Klan, the victims who were gunned down on Sunday were all Christians, devoted to their families, to their churches and to serving their Kansas City communities
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/15/us/apparent-hate-crime-aimed-at-jews-instead-strikes-christians-who-gave-to-others.html?_r=0.