Judge Jim Gray wrote an opinion piece for his Functional Libertarian series called The Police as Noble Servants . Many IPR readers had a different opinion of the police force in the United States than was portrayed in Judge Gray’s article. I also heard from some Facebook readers, one even asking if the article was “satire”. I asked for interested readers to send me opposing articles for publication here.I also posted the article with the request for opposing articles on a few Libertarian pages, and a couple copwatch pages. I received three responses. I’ll be sending Judge Gray a note saying that there were some responses to his column that he might be interested in. The intention is to open dialogue into the increasingly publicized discussion of the police force in our country.
The first one is from someone I know from Facebook named Barry Rhodes.
Judging by nothing more than looks, I can only assume that as a 34 year old man, I am quite a few years younger than Judge James P. Gray. I, like Judge Gray, was often told that a policeman could help if I were ever lost, in trouble, et cetera. Unfortunately, the rhetoric of childhood lessons does not always equate to the grim reality of the world I grew up in. I can’t help but believe the reason for this is simple. Whereas the “find a policeman” line works great as a tag line for some anti-drug or kidnapping-prevention lecture in elementary schools, the world has been awakened to the grim reality that is modern-day policing in America.
I cannot count the number of online videos I’ve seen of police demanding that people consent to searches of their vehicles, even when there was no real reasoning whatsoever to even suspect that a person would be in possession of any contraband materials. It has happened to me on almost every occasion I’ve ever been pulled over by the police, even though I have no criminal history of drug usage. In situations where I’ve objected, I’ve been threatened with arrest over the alleged traffic infractions, so my car could be “inventoried” (read: SEARCHED) prior to being towed. Because of the frequency of the police routinely asking such things as “do you mind if I look around the inside of the car?”, especially in situations where not even a glimmer of reasonable suspicion is present, it makes me wonder if perhaps it’s not about winning the so-called War on Drugs but rather, reinforcing the idea that seems to be very prevalent amongst modern police officers. We are not viewed as the employers of these public servants, but as “civilians” or “criminals until proven otherwise”, while the police view themselves as active-duty combatants.
When we’re not being treated as insurgents or terrorists on the streets of our own communities, we are being seen as nothing more than a potential income stream. When the police are told (or “strongly encouraged”, or however else it may be conveyed) to write more traffic citations, one of two things is happening. Either the officers themselves weren’t doing their jobs to begin with, or they are actively being told to create crimes to punish where no crimes existed. This is not merely a corruption of our justice system, it’s a violation of the law.
I cannot think of any instance in which a person will accept a traffic citation as reasonably deserved when a police officer feels the need to conceal himself in order to catch people breaking traffic laws. More often than not, the majority of officers I see on the streets (who aren’t writing tickets already) are generally seen laying in wait with their cars parked behind buildings or trees. Beyond this, many police departments are now painting and decorating their vehicles in solid colors with like-colored reflective decals, so that they will not be noticed as easily by passing motorists. Instead of roof-mounted light bars, in-cab and grille-mount light fixtures are used to further disguise the vehicle. When the vehicle is marked with reflective decals that can be plainly seen if viewed from the right angle, one cannot reasonably claim that this vehicle is an “undercover” or “unmarked” vehicle…nor is it meant to be. It makes a person wonder whether the goal of departments who use such cars is to increase traffic safety, or increase municipal court revenues. Sadly, we don’t really have to think too long or hard about the issue.
When I am stopped by the police, let there be no mistake. It is not because I am the subject of a five-state manhunt. I’m not suspected of transporting six pounds of heroin in my trunk. No one thinks I just robbed a bank. If I am stopped by police, it is because someone felt that I am criminally in violation of some regulation regarding speed, the wearing of a seatbelt, or some other harmless and victimless act…because if there were an actual victim of my action, such victimization would be the result of my actions causing a vehicle collision. But I wasn’t being ticketed at the scene of the accident, I’m being pulled over while driving to work. It’s not my job to make the officer’s job easier. It’s his job to act as if I’m one of the many individuals who pays him.
Twenty years ago, it may have been true that an officer had no idea who the driver of a vehicle was. Today, you’d be hard-pressed to find a police car in this country that doesn’t have at least an in-car computer that has pulled up the registered owner’s name, home address, photo, and criminal history before the officer ever gets out of the car. Just as an officer may have no idea what frame of mind the driver of a vehicle may be in, it’d be pure insanity to suggest that the driver isn’t going to be annoyed by the inconvenience at the very least. However, let’s not kid ourselves here. It is not the driver who instigated the situation, it is the officer who made a conscious effort to flip on those lights and exercise that authority. The driver may or may not be carrying a firearm with the will to use it, while the officer not only has a firearm but also the authority to use it every time he pulls over a vehicle. Let us not kid ourselves over who needs to be concerned in every such an interaction. Likewise, it is a myth that “many police have been shot”, especially by those in vehicles they stop. It’s so rare, in fact, that the Law Enforcement industry even has a “Below 100” slogan as a means to signify their desire to keep LEO line-of-duty deaths below 100 annually. On average, the number hovers around 150 yearly, in a nation with well over 700,000 police officers…and the majority of those deaths result from traffic collisions in non-emergency circumstances. In other words, far more police officers die breaking the traffic laws they write us tickets for, than die at the hands of crazed gunmen at traffic stops or anywhere else.
Throughout this nation, the use of “swear words” is and rightly should be considered protected speech under the 1st Amendment. There’s no reason whatsoever for an officer to “report it to a prosecutor”, because there’s legally nothing a prosecutor can do about it. A prosecutor’s only recourse in such a situation would be to act punitively with regard to lodging other criminal complaints against a defendant when no need for such action exists.
Whereas the act of spitting on a policeman (even in situations where such action is so rightly deserved) will often result in a charge of “assaulting an officer” when no actual physical injury occurred, an officer is authorized to use “pain compliance” techniques to ensure that a “civilian” does what he is told. This is true even when an officer gives a blatantly unlawful order, such as to cease the exercise of protected rights or to submit to a patently unlawful arrest. Even here in the State of Texas, where a man’s right to kill an officer if necessary to prevent the unreasonable and excessive use of force by that officer, a police officer still has the authority to use pepper spray, tasers, and other methods of “pain compliance” if that officer has followed the department-authorized force continuum.
Even when officers are disciplined by a criminal court, it is almost always on a misdemeanor charge such as Texas’ “Official Oppression”, whereas the same conduct by a citizen toward an officer would result in charges at the felony level.
Until the citizenry sees themselves on an even playing field within the boundaries of the law, the citizenry cannot be expected to see police officers as anything but their oppressors.
Judge Gray’s assertion that police officers “have the authority to stop, detain and even arrest just about anyone under any circumstances” has me a bit frightened, especially when he goes on to speak of his “many years as a federal prosecutor and a judge”. It would almost appear as though the judge is either ignorant of the law, or is supportive of officers who are willing to fabricate reasonable suspicion and probable cause in order to justify otherwise unjustifiable detentions and arrests. This is yet another prevailing attitude amongst officers, one that is often backed up not only by their superiors but also by prosecutors. It frightens me to think that judges would be willing to disregard the law and play along. Police officers have proven to me, time and again, that they are willing to act in an unprofessional and occasionally outright illegal manner, and it appears to matter not whether they are “just doing their jobs” or just doing whatever they feel like doing in spite of their jobs.
The opinion of the general public toward the police officer will not change, except for the worse, unless the police officers of this nation begin to know their role in society. They are not “warriors”, nor “revenue generators”, but rather they are public servants. Servants of the public. Subservient to the public. The public at large has granted them a wide swath of authority to act in a manner the common citizen may not, and maybe it’s either time for officers to understand the purpose of their authority or to abdicate it.
-Barry H. Rhodes
This is from someone else who saw my request on Facebook, Robert Fallin:
One of the most noble public servant positions in our society should be a police officer.
Unfortunately, with almost daily news stories of police beating, tazing, illegally
arresting or confiscating cameras from witnesses and even deadly shootings of
“suspects,” including pregnant women, the elderly and handicapped, it is hard not to hate,
respect, police officers.I was fortunate, recently, to meet, the finest example of “to protect and serve,” I have ever
encountered, when I was stopped for a defective tail light. The officer was respectful,
friendly, even helpful. This reminded once again that police officers are people, capable
of both noble and despicable behavior. When I was in the Navy, I performed Shore Patrol
duties every time we entered a foreign port. I was five feet, nine inches, weight about one
hundred, thirty-five pounds, and was armed with nothing more than a “Billy club,” for which
I received no training. I patrolled some of the worst areas of some of Europe’s oldest cities,
where drug usage and prostitution were rampant. I never found it necessary to use that “Billy
club,” much less pumping six shots into a suspect, as I saw a police officer do to into a guy
who was whittling in broad daylight on a police camera video. I also heard the police officer’s
superior say, with chilling calm, “Don’t worry, it was a good shooting.”“Judge Gray, a thug is a thug, whether or not he or she carries a badge or wears a black
robe. Law enforcement officials who commit violence against those they swore to protect
also deserve justice, be it administrative justice or ‘street justice’. Already, the state of Indiana
has made it legal for citizens to use deadly force against police officers who attempt deadly acts
of violence against those citizens. If law enforcement behavior, including the courts, does not
improve, many will not wait for the laws against resisting unlawful arrests change before administering
justice.”R Fallin
This last one is from someone we know here at IPR, Darryl Perry:
In a recent article , James Gray perpetuates the fairy-tale of the police as heroes to be looked up to. I would like to first state that he does give one good piece of advice for anyone who is ever stopped by police, “keep your hands in plain sight.” This should be done for your own safety, as police often overreact when they feel they may be surprised. I have first-hand experience in this department. The only time I have ever had a gun drawn on me, it was from a police officer who had responded to the wrong house in response to a suspected robbery. Had I made any sudden movements, I would likely have lost my life. One another occasion an officer approached my vehicle with his hand on his weapon after stopping me for a seat belt violation. I should also state that filming your interaction will give a clear objective record of what happened during the stop. Police often tend to be on their best behavior when they know they’re being filmed .
Now, back to the myth of police as heroic public servants. If police were heroes, then stories of botched drug raids would not be a standard news story. People would be outraged each time they hear about an officer killing a family pet, or another human being. It was recently reported that police have killed 5,000 people since September 11, 2001 . According to the CATO Institute’s National Police Misconduct Reporting Project , in 2010 there were 4,861 unique reports of police misconduct involving 6,613 sworn officers and 6,826 alleged victims.
In a rare case of officer accountability, Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Officer Randall Kerrick was charged with voluntary manslaughter after firing his weapon “several times” at Jonathan Ferrell who was running to the police for help after wrecking his vehicle. The Ferrell family may find justice, but others aren’t so lucky. In May 2010, seven year old Aiyana Jones was killed as she slept on a couch at 3am by a SWAT team that burst into the wrong apartment; no charges were filed. Indianapolis Police Officer David Bisard was on duty, driving an Metro Police cruiser when he plowed into a group of four riders on three motorcycles stopped at a red light – one rider was killed & two others critically injured. Bisard was found to be intoxicated, though no charges were filed because “the blood test had been mishandled and no other evidence supported the DUI charge.” There are also countless stories of women being sexually assaulted by police officers, and countless other stories of sexual assault that are never reported. Does this sound like the actions of a hero?
Those who support the myth of the hero-cop will often use the excuse “those are just a few bad apples.” If that were the case, then why do the “good cops” who are supposedly the super-majority never do anything about these “bad apples”? Could it be that the “good cops” are in fact the minority?
In Peace, Freedom, Love & Liberty,
Darryl W. Perry
Darryl W. Perry is an activist, author, poet & statesman. Darryl is a regular contributor to The Bulverde Standard, The Canyon Lake Week and The Comal Beacon and writes a monthly article for The Sovereign . He hosts the weekly news podcasts Freedom Minute and Police Accountability Report and hosts the weekly radio show Peace, Love, Liberty Radio on the Liberty Radio Network .
Darryl is a co-founder and co-chair of the NH Liberty Party .
Darryl is the Owner/Managing Editor of Free Press Publications .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt4O62_VXs4
I just found this on Facebook. This is awful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgixrRZ-Avg&feature=share&list=PL14D8E55FEAF57054
I’m not buying this. I suspect that “Randy” is the IPR troll
I think so too.
“Randy November 30, 2013 at 11:58 pm
To answer questions that have been posed here: I am not a nazi or a troll, and I am not an LP member, if by LP member you mean someone who has donated money to the LP, signed the LP pledge or registered as a Libertarian with the state. I do consider myself a libertarian leaner and have voted for some Libertarian Party candidates although I do not share all their views. I’m not much of a joiner and I value my privacy. I have never been diagnosed with any mental illness. I am not a government employee or agent. My IP is from anonymouse.org, a widely used internet privacy tool used by many different people to anonymize their web browsing. I’m not sure what I may have said that caused anyone to conclude that I am a nazi, troll, LP member, mentally ill and/or a government agent or saboteur.”
I’m not buying this. I suspect that “Randy” is the IPR troll, and that this person is also signed up as an IPR writer. The heat is on.
The IP is indeed from anonymouse.com, whch is also used by the nazi troll…and thousands of other people.
And now back on topic:
http://www.filmingcops.com/corrupt-government-chemist-tampered-with-40000-cases-locking-countless-innocent-americans-in-prison/
http://filmingcops.com/five-men-rush-to-save-drowning-woman-cop-stands-around-and-chats-on-phone/
She claimed to be a “chemist,” investigation found a degree in SOCIOLOGY! Worked at the same lab as Dookhan. Read more: http://filmingcops.com/breaking-another-government-chemist-accused-of-deception-over-180000-cases-now-need-review/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7bm0VII-WM Police Can Basically Search & Seize Whatever They Want
http://filmingcops.com/government-official-kicks-family-out-of-park-for-giving-thanksgiving-dinner-to-homeless/
…I think that’s enough for now…
” I’m not sure what I may have said that caused anyone to conclude that I am a nazi, troll, LP member, mentally ill and/or a government agent or saboteur.”
The person we had trouble with, whose IP has the same the numerals at the beginning, attacked one of the writers here with reports of bizarre past behavior, and he also included one of our most common commenters with ugly accusations. If it wasn’t you, we apologize, but if it was you, as long as you refrain from personal attacks, we’re cool.
To answer questions that have been posed here: I am not a nazi or a troll, and I am not an LP member, if by LP member you mean someone who has donated money to the LP, signed the LP pledge or registered as a Libertarian with the state. I do consider myself a libertarian leaner and have voted for some Libertarian Party candidates although I do not share all their views. I’m not much of a joiner and I value my privacy. I have never been diagnosed with any mental illness. I am not a government employee or agent. My IP is from anonymouse.org, a widely used internet privacy tool used by many different people to anonymize their web browsing. I’m not sure what I may have said that caused anyone to conclude that I am a nazi, troll, LP member, mentally ill and/or a government agent or saboteur.
“I did not work Seattle at all that time”:
I made a mistake here. I actually did work in Seattle in 2002, but it was only for a part of a day. Most of the time when I was in Washington in 2002 I worked Puyallup, Auburn, Spanaway, and Federal Way, and toward the end of my time there that year (I was there for 6 weeks) I worked Gig Harbor and Bremerton.
http://libertycrier.com/crime-rate-camden-goes-unionized-police-force-replaced/
Crime Rate in Camden Goes Down After Unionized Police Force Replaced
http://libertycrier.com/give-us-cash-or-lose-your-kids-and-face-felony-charges-dont-cops-have-better-things-to-do/
Give Us Cash or Lose Your Kids and Face Felony Charges: Don’t Cops Have Better Things to Do?!
http://crime.blogs.tuscaloosanews.com/16558/tpd-officer-who-shot-dog-files-lawsuit-seeking-10000-from-neighbor/
Tuscaloosa cop shoots dog, sues neighbor for complaining about it
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/27/obama-pardons_n_4345849.html?ref=topbar
Obama Has Pardoned Almost As Many Turkeys As Drug Offenders
http://reason.com/blog/2013/11/28/new-york-city-may-ban-vaping-because-it
New York City May Ban Vaping Because It Looks Like Smoking
http://reason.com/archives/2013/11/26/watched-cops-are-polite-cops
Robert Capozzi said: “My sense is that large numbers of people LIKE that the cops are ‘getting tough.’ (I don’t, btw.)”
There are also lots of people – including what some may consider to be a surprising number of people who appear to be middle to upper middle class or higher, middle aged, and in some cases even older, white people – who do not like the police.
The first time that I gathered petition signatures in the state of Washington was back in 2002. I worked on 4 petitions when I was there. One of them was to reduce vehicle registration fees (they call them “tabs” in Washington, which is the only state where I’ve heard that terms used for vehicle registration), another one was to repeal a tax increase on small businesses that had recently been passed, another one to put spending limits on state government (this petition was canceled after one week due to lack of funding), and the final one was for firefighters and police to have representation on the board of trustees that managed their pension. The first 3 I listed were all things with which I agreed, the one about the firefighters and police was not something that I really cared about, but I did not see giving them representation to necessarily be a toxic issue, so I worked on it.
Out of the 4 petitions that I mentioned above, the most difficult one to get signed was the one about the firefighters and police getting representation on the board of trustees that managed their pension. Why? Because I ran into lots of people who hated cops. The firefighters were pretty popular, and the proponents of the petition played up this angle, as in Washington, the petitions are large and can contain graphics on them, and the proponents of this petition put graphics that were related to firefighters – such as a firefighter helmet, and a fire truck – on the petition, however, other than mentioning the police in the text of the initiative, there were no graphics on the petition that had anything to do with the police. I don’t think that this was by accident, I think that the proponents knew that firefighters are a lot more popular with the general public than the police are, so that’s why they played up the firefighter part of the petition and not the police part.
Somebody may say something like, “Well this is probably because you worked the petition in predominantly black or Hispanic neighborhoods, or you must have worked in predominantly white leftist areas and had a bunch of hippies and liberals signing.” This was not the case at all. I worked the petition in predominantly white suburbs and towns that were on the outer edges of the Seattle-Tacoma metropolitan area. I did not work Seattle at all that time (nor did I work any colleges that time), and I only worked a little bit (like part of one day) in Tacoma. Places I worked that time were Auburn, Puyallup, Spanaway. Federal Way, Renton, Gig Harbor, and Bremerton. I encountered lots of “mainstream” looking white people and I was surprised at the number of them who made negative comments about the police. Not all, but more than I expected.
Yes, Andy, this Randy has the same IP address as our Nazi troll. I haven’t deleted his comments because he’s engaging in reasonable conversation so far.
Check out the story of Donald P. Scott, who was an upper class white guy who was falsely accused of being a drug dealer and who was killed by the police during a late night raid at his house (where no drugs were found, and no evidence was ever produced that he was a drug dealer).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Donald_P._Scott
Robert Capozzi said: “I keep a low profile, don’t do illegal things, and am not black. I also may just be lucky.”
Your demographic and lifestyle certainly make you less likely to be targeted, however, luck has something to do with it as well. Search the net and you will find stories where even older, “mainstream” people who do not engage in any “risky” behavior ran into the wrong cop at the wrong time and got into a bad situation.
Also, I’d like to add that I consider anything by any law enforcement body that is not in-line with the Constitution to be illegal, and a violation of civil liberties. So by my standard, everyone who go through a TSA checkpoint at an airport is having their civil rights violated. Anyone who gets stopped at a random check point along a road or highway is having their civil rights violated. There are numerous ways that government officials violate people’s civil rights every day, to the point where most people consider it to be “just the way things are.” Having to get a license or go through a background check to purchase a gun is a civil rights violation in my opinion. A cop asking to see your ID without having a warrant or probable cause that you have committed a crime (and I mean a real crime, as in an act of violence, theft, or destruction of property) is a civil rights violation.
Who is this Randy character? Is he an LP member, and if so in which LP affiliate is he a member?
Randy is likely the troll who has been popping up here for years. I’m thinking that the troll is probably somebody who is signed up here as a writer, which if I’m correct in this assertion, makes it a pretty short suspect list.
The person is probably a bored person with mental problems, or a government plant who is part of a sabotage operation, and if this is the case they are probably getting paid to do this. It is a fact that the DHS, NSA, FBI, CIA, DOD, etc…, pays extra attention to political activists who are not on board with the mainstream Democrats and Republicans, and it is also a fact that they hire people to post propaganda online, and also send plants into organizations.
Sure, there are certainly cases where there are white people, who because of their age, lifestyle, manner of dressing, etc…, are more likely to get pulled over than some black people, particularly older, middle class or higher black people with a “conservative” or “mainstream” look.
My experience in many years of political activism is that you are just as likely to get hassled by the police, etc…, if you are white than you are if you are black or Hispanic or whatever. Some black petition circulators whom I know have made comments to me where they think that they are being hassled because they are black, and that white petitioners do not get hassled as much. I’ve responded to them by telling them numerous stories of myself and other white petition circulators going through harassment that is just as bad as what they have been through.
I think that the fact of the matter is that the mainstream power structure does not like anyone engaging in political activism, especially if it is something which is not controlled by the mainstream power structure (as in the mainstream Democrat and Republicans, and even then there are people on both sides of those teams who attack the other team). Also, due to the dumbed down, big government controlled education system, many people are ignorant, especially when it comes to the Constitution. The system produces lots of people who are ignorant of the Constitution, and some of these people become cops, and the people who train the cops are generally authoritarians, as are many of the cops, and for the ones who are not, many of them are the type of people who do not think for themselves and who mindlessly follow orders, orders which are given by authoritarian control freak sociopaths.
“And you may notice Andy says he has been frequently approached by the police when he was not petitioning or protesting, yet he is not black, and you yourself have not been bothered by the police in decades. Ask why?”
I am not frequently approached by the police when I’m not petitioning or protesting. Over the course of my life there are a few occasions here and there when I’ve been randomly harassed by the police when I was not petitioning or protesting, but I would not call these events frequent compared to the number of times I’ve been harassed by the police while engaging in political activism in public places. Also, some of the non-political instances of police harassment occurred while traveling, sometimes while traveling in conjunction with working on political campaigns. It is a fact that the police target people with out of state license plates, even more so if the license plate is from a state that is far away.
I know that there are a lot of other people out there who have been through a lot worse things with the police than I have. I’ve talked to quite a few of them, and I’ve seen lots of horror stories about the police in news articles and videos. The majority of my negative police encounters happened while gathering petition signatures, but I’ve also had some while traveling, and a few random ones here and there. I’ve experienced enough to get a taste of what it is like to be the victim of abusive/corrupt cops, and it is not a good taste.
It should be blatantly obvious that there is a big problem with law enforcement in this country violating people’s civil liberties and being corrupt. Just look at the number of people ensnared in the criminal justice system for victimless crimes. Anyone who opens there eyes and takes the time to observe what is going on should be able to see that there is a police state being erected around us.
Randomly for no god reason? I don’t buy that. Ask yourself who you think is more likely to be pulled over 1. An elderly black woman who looks like she is on her way to or from church 2. A middle aged black professional in a BMW listening to classical music wearing a business suit driving down the street of his quiet middle class suburban neighborhood 3. Four young wiggers in a vehicle whose rims cost more than the car itself, dressed in hip hop fashion and blasting rap “music” with their windows rolled down cruising around in a neighborhood where street drugs are frequently sold, 4. A white 20-something female dressed like a prostitute walking up and down the street in an area known for prostitution and repeatedly seen conversing with people who look like they may be pimps, prostitutes and would be customers, who gets picked up and dropped off by men in the same area several times over the course of the evening. I am going to guess #3 and #4 are more likely to get pulled over and questioned than #1 and #2 even though the first two are black and the last two are white. Do you disagree? Now given that people above who have said they get stopped frequently by the police are not black, and the number of incidents is probably more than can be explained by luck, that leaves keeping a low profile and not doing illegal things. Which may both be good advice for them I reckon.
“Randy November 29, 2013 at 9:04 pm
Well Andy and Paulie are white so that can’t be the reason with them. All I am saying is where there’s smoke there’s fire.”
This is probably the troll. Even so, my response to this is that a lot of these confrontations with the police have happened while gathering signatures on petitions. Being out in public places “doing political stuff” increases the odds of being hassled by the police. Also, the more a person travels, the more a person is likely to find themselves in situations where they get hassled by the police.
Age is another factor. Younger people tend to get hassled by the police more than older people. Incidents where I got hassled by the police go back to the 1980’s & 1990’s, although more occurred in the 1990’s, and especially in the 2000’s when I started petitioning and traveling more. A lot of incidents happened from the year 2000 until the present, and it was back in 2000 when I worked on my first petition.
The type and age of the car one drives can increase or decrease the odds of getting hassled by the police. A late model, nice looking but not overly ornate looking car makes one less likely to get pulled over than driving an older, more “worn” looking car, and/or one that is garish (say with flashy rims, etc…).
If a person does not travel much, and does not engage in any public political activism (as in petition signature gathering, going to protests, etc…), they are less likely to get hassled by the police, particularly if they are older (and note that the older one is, it means that they were more likely to have been young when the USA was less of a police state than it is today), and they are even less likely to get hassled by the police if they are white, and the higher the person’s economic class, the less likely they are to get hassled by the police as well.
There are certainly exceptions to all of this stuff, so I’m talking about average, as in if one is an older middle or upper middle class or above white person who does not travel a lot, and who drives a late model inconspicuous looking car, and who does not engage in public political activism (outside of say attending a meeting or pre-planned speech), then one is not as likely as a lot of other people are of getting harassed by the police.
Randy, thanks, I didn’t put that all that well. Apparently violent crimes are perpetrated by blacks than whites, but the notion I reject is the one that says therefore the police should randomly pull blacks over for no good reason.
I keep a low profile, don’t do illegal things, and am not black. I also may just be lucky.
You reject the “notion” that blacks are more likely to be doing crimes? Have you looked at the statistical evidence on this at all? How am I contradicting myself, because I don’t live in denial of obvious statistical evidence that is available to everyone? And you may notice Andy says he has been frequently approached by the police when he was not petitioning or protesting, yet he is not black, and you yourself have not been bothered by the police in decades. Ask why?
Randy, you contradict yourself. If you are correct that “where there’s smoke there’s fire,”and if blacks are disproportionately pulled over by the police, then you seem to be saying that their being black amounts to “fire,” that is, they they are more likely to be doing crimes of some sort.
I reject this notion.
Andy especially reports that he petitions and protests. These protected behaviors may well draw additional police scrutiny, but I’d maintain they should not. They are peaceful activities. I find it concerning that he seems to get targeted for such things.
Well Andy and Paulie are white so that can’t be the reason with them. All I am saying is where there’s smoke there’s fire.
Randy, OTOH, I’m white. My African-American friends report to me – anecdotally – that they get pulled over as much as monthly. Apparently, “Driving While Black” is a real syndrome.
WM: The more brutality occurs, the less trust there is.
Me: Interesting theory, JP. I track it up to a point. It does seem that police brutality may well be on the rise. And yet while government institutions may well be losing trust, I see evidence that there’s a widespread desire for government to actually shrink. My sense is that large numbers of people LIKE that the cops are “getting tough.” (I don’t, btw.)
My sense is that a sense of apathy and resignation is the growing sentiment, vs. some anarcho impulse….
Two personal rules: Fix it yurself & never call the cops . . .
Ms. McElroy says this:
“The great fiction of government is imploding. What is left is the great reality; namely that all government intervention rests upon coercion. ”
http://www.thedailybell.com/editorials/34783/Wendy-McElroy-The-Reason-Police-Brutality-Is-Rising/#comment-1143562785
“paulie November 29, 2013 at 10:42 am
Well yeah, that would be the perspective of a judge on the bench. Many of those same cops may have had a whole diferent approach in other circumstances. But they know how to act in court.”
The key word here is act, as in they know how to put on a performance in the court room so they look good in front judges like Jim Gray. This side of these same cops that many in the public have seen is not as nice or noble.
Well yeah, that would be the perspective of a judge on the bench. Many of those same cops may have had a whole diferent approach in other circumstances. But they know how to act in court.
Andy, yes, it could. Whether it’s a fact – at least in my case – is highly doubtful, since highly unlikely, since I don’t think most cops are like Sheriff Andy. There may well be some who are in that direction, but my guess is that’s a rare thing.
Can’t speak for Judge Gray, but my guess is his experience on the bench was that many cops were professional in their approach.
“Robert Capozzi November 28, 2013 at 10:04 pm
A, I’ve great compassion for the unpleasantries you’ve experienced with police. Can’t say I can relate, since my last run-in with the police was running a red light 30 years ago.”
I imagine that you don’t engage in public, 1st amendment political activities very often, plus you probably don’t travel around the country as much or a frequently as I have. So this would explain a big part of it.
“It seems healthy that you’ve not gone all Sympathy for the Devil (“Just as every cop is criminal…”). Still, have you considered the possibility that your views on this matter are highly biased by your history with the police?
Could it be that you lack the dispassion necessary to assess the police’s aggregate behavior in a measured way due to your personal experiences with the law?”
I don’t think so. Why? Well look at all of the stories that give examples of police abuse and corruption that are posted in this thread. Do searches online for police abuse and corruption. There will be more examples that come up in a search than any one person could read. A lot of the problems that I’ve encountered with the police are not isolated incidents, they have happened multiple times in multiple states. I also know lots of people who have had their rights violated by the police. Then look at the huge number of people in this country who are in jail, prison, probation, or parole, and then keep in mind that over half of these people are in these situations for things that would not even be crimes in a libertarian society. Next, look at the amount of money that police departments cost the public in terms of taxes, fines, and fees.
So yes, I think that the police in our present society represent a net negative, as in they do more harm than good.
“I’ve been to every state except Alaska and Hawaii, and I’ve had my rights violated by the police in Maine, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Florida, Alabama, Tennessee, Kentucky, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Arkansas, Texas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, South Dakota, Colorado, Nevada, California, Washington, and probably a few places I’m not thinking of right now.”
I see that I neglected to mention Maryland, which I obviously listed above, in this list of states where I’ve had my rights violated by the police.
Could it be that some other people who have not had to deal with the reality of thug cops many, many times like we have are living in make believe Mayberry fantasy land when it comes to how they think most cops operate?
A, I’ve great compassion for the unpleasantries you’ve experienced with police. Can’t say I can relate, since my last run-in with the police was running a red light 30 years ago.
It seems healthy that you’ve not gone all Sympathy for the Devil (“Just as every cop is criminal…”). Still, have you considered the possibility that your views on this matter are highly biased by your history with the police?
Could it be that you lack the dispassion necessary to assess the police’s aggregate behavior in a measured way due to your personal experiences with the law?
Or someone not tied to the current police-prison-industrial, drug war/heimland security crony corporatist establishment.
“Jill Pyeatt Post authorNovember 28, 2013 at 2:57 pm
I hope Judge Gray has been following these conversations, although I doubt that he has. All we can do is continue to publicize the bad behavior. Maybe at some point, at least some cities or counties or states will do something about it.”
Only if libertarians take over those cities or counties.
I hope Judge Gray has been following these conversations, although I doubt that he has. All we can do is continue to publicize the bad behavior. Maybe at some point, at least some cities or counties or states will do something about it.
My comments about the police in this thread may sound harsh to some people, but I’d wager that most of these people are either control freaks themselves, or are mindless conformists, but to those who do not fall into these categories, I’d wager that they either have not done enough homework on the issue of police abuse and corruption, and/or they have not been a victim of police abuse and corruption themselves.
I’ve personally been screwed over by the police on numerous occasions. The police have cost me I don’t even know how many thousands of dollars. I could actually be well off right now when you take into consideration the number of times I was illegally prevented from gathering petition signatures (while working as a paid signature gatherer) in places where the public has access by the police. My opportunity costs are easily in the 10’s of thousands of dollars, maybe more. This does not even include the times where I was fined for vehicle related incidents in which I believe that the tickets were completely unjust (I’m not counting the few times where I actually was speeding). If I had all of that money now, and even had just had a fraction of it invested, I could actually be rich. There are also times where I was just randomly harassed by the police, or times where I reported legitimate crimes to the police and they did nothing. I’ve had cops lie right to my face. I also know a lot of people who have been screwed over by the police in multiple ways. I’ve had times when I’ve dealt with cops where I felt like I was staring into the face of evil, and this is not an exaggeration.
Now I’m not saying that every cop is really horrible, as I said above, there are different degrees of bad, and some are less toxic than others. I’m also not saying that the police never do anything useful, because sure, sometimes they do arrest people who really deserve, however, I think that more often than not, the police actually do more harm than good. This may be shocking to some people, but after studying these issues for years, and experiencing dealing with the police for years in multiple states, I’d say that they are a net negative. Look at the amount of money that the police extort from the public in taxes, fines, and fees, and then look at the number of police abuse and corruption scandals, and then keep in mind that there are many instances the police violating people’s civil rights/being abusive and being corrupt that most people do not hear about because the stories never get covered by any media. I’d say that there are more instances of the police being abusive or corrupt that happen that you don’t hear about than whatever instances get reported.
Then look at the political lobbying of the police and prison guard unions. They typically lobby for more government and more power. Some people may say that they are just doing their jobs and that we should blame the politicians who pass laws that violate people rights. My response to this is that I agree that the politicians who pass so called “laws” which violate individual rights are certainly at fault, but this does not absolve the police of any guilt, because they are the ones who enforce these laws. They could take a stand and say no, they could lobby against laws which violate individual rights. The police do not have to arrest people for “crimes” where there are no victims. The police do not have to interfere with people who are exercising their rights which are enshrined in the Bill of Rights, which is part of a document called the Constitution which every police officer is supposed to take an oath to protect and defend. Ask a cop a simple question like, “Did you take an oath to defend the Constitution?” or “What law are you accusing me of breaking?” and they generally will not answer you, in fact, I’ve never had a cop answer me when I’ve asked those questions. Most cops are enthusiastic supporters of big government.
Some people who read this might say something like, “You are just bitter because you are out for money.” This is completely false. I’ve had my rights violated by the police multiple times when I was not working in a paid capacity gathering petition signatures or registering people to vote, and it is not like I have some kind of threatening look or have spent lots of time in high crime areas, and I in fact don’t even have a criminal record. The only time I have ever been arrested is the incident where I was arrested for saying that I wanted to record the police illegally telling me that I could not gather petition signatures in front of a public library, and in this case the charge was thrown out. The cops who falsely arrested me lied in their police report and they charged me with trespassing and resisting arrest, and I could have faced up to 4 years in jail/prison and up to $4,000 in fines. Did these a-hole cops give a rat’s ass if I got sentenced to jail/prison and/or had to pay a fine over something that was not even a crime? HELL NO. Their behavior was that of a sociopath. They were the ones who committed a crime that day, not me. I’ve been harassed and illegally detained and searched by the police multiple times. Have any of these cops even heard of the 4th amendment? If they have, it is blatantly apparent to me that they don’t give a damn what it says. Being detained and searched by the police is no fun.
I talked to an ACLU attorney a few years ago who told me that they did nothing but sue the police for civil rights violations for a few years, and they never once saw a cop lose their job. Think about this for a moment. The majority of cops violate people’s rights on a regular basis, most of these violations never get reported, or they are just accepted “as the way things are” in our society where most people – including most cops – don’t have a freaking clue what the Constitution even says, and a lot of these rights violations even get celebrated as “cracking down on crime,” never mind the fact that for many of these so called “crimes,” they can’t even produce a victim, much less show that a victim suffered damages.
I’ve asked cops during several instances where they violated my 1st amendment rights who the victim was and what damages did the victim suffer, and the only time I ever got an answer to one of these questions was during that illegal arrest incident at that library in Maryland, when, after asking this question multiple times, one of the cops replied that, “The State of Maryland is the victim.” So let’s get this straight, the Maryland Board of Elections requires people who want to place candidates on the ballot to gather signatures on petitions from registered voters. This is the state law. Both the US Constitution and the Maryland State Constitution enumerate the free speech and the right to petition government as individual rights. There are multiple court rulings, including ones that had to do with free speech activities in front of public libraries, as well as actual statutes which also back this up. So I was in front of that library asking people who were registered to vote in Maryland to sign state mandated ballot access petition to place candidates on the ballot, yet according to this cop, the State of Maryland was victimized by this activity, even though upon further questioning of this cop, he could not explain why the State of Maryland required us to gather these petition signatures, or why it would be a criminal act to try to fulfill this petition signature requirement, what damages the State of Maryland incurred by my asking people if they would sign the petition, nor could he even explain who the State of Maryland was. The fact that this cop thought that the “State of Maryland” was being victimized by my asking people to sign a State of Maryland mandated ballot access petition while standing on public property that was open to the public leads me to the question of not only why would anyone admire this cop, but why is this person even employed a cop? This cop was clearly in violation of his oath of office and should be removed from office, and quite frankly, deserves to go to prison. I wonder how many other people have had their rights violated by this cop. I’d bet that it’s a lot.
The incident in Maryland was not an isolated incident, even though it was the only time that I got arrested (although I’ve come close during many of those instances – the reason that I got arrested in Maryland was because the cops did not want me to have a recording of them giving me an unlawful command). I’ve been to every state except Alaska and Hawaii, and I’ve had my rights violated by the police in Maine, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Florida, Alabama, Tennessee, Kentucky, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Arkansas, Texas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, South Dakota, Colorado, Nevada, California, Washington, and probably a few places I’m not thinking of right now.
Am I bitter? Sure, but it is only because I’ve experienced and witnessed what the police do when they are “on the streets” in reality, other than somebody who just watches cop shows on TV where they are portrayed as heroes, or been in a position where the police are going to kiss your ass like a judge is. I’d like to see Jim Gray go out and interact with the police in situations that regular people encounter, or especially that political activists who engage in public 1st amendment activities encounter, and have the police not know that he’s a retired judge. I bet that he’d be in for a rude awakening, and he may no longer think of the police as being such “noble servants” that he wants to thank.
Good one 🙂
Here is a song that was performed at Porcfest in 2011 which has a good message for the police:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_YSr0nQBKQ
I’ve said as much several times. Whistleblowing can be dangerous to one’s health, particularly when dealing with the armed and trained (and largely immune) killers in police dpartments and the national security aparatus. I admire people who can do the right thing in the face of such danger and make themselves outcasts while putting themselves in danger. However, most folks can’t be heroes.
PF, thanks for sharing. Yes, I can see Andy playing Serpico. And that’s cool…for Andy. And it’s cool for Andy that expects a world full of Serpicos.
He might find great disappointment in such an approach, don’t you think?
A would be Serpico.
Geez, Robert…I don’t think we’re in Mayberry anymore.
Not that we ever were. But that is a whole ‘nother tangent…as is this:
Andy, I can understand. Do you have a ranking for cops?
f=horribly evil and corrupt
d=largely evil but sometimes does the right thing
c=occasionally evil
b=rare evildoer
a=andy griffith
😉
Any breakdown on the percentages of the police forces collectively nationwide?
Capozzi has a binary view about binary views 🙂
Robert Capozzi November 27, 2013 at 5:57 am: “It appears Andy has set the bar so high that the only good cops are those who resign, with the epiphany that victimless crimes are wrong and that therefore they cannot do their jobs in good conscience, or something.”
I’ve also said that there are different degrees of what defines a bad cop and what defines a good cop. Some are worse than others, which also means that some are better than others.
All true; I agree with all that.
pf: As for not having any data…not true. It’s true we don’t have ALL the data, but we do have quite a bit, enough to show that problems are pervasive, not rare or isolated at all.
me: Yes, but I guess I’m not explaining my point well. Of course there are corrupt acts by cops, just as there are corrupt acts by people in all walks of life. Of course, out of self preservation, “let-ters” don’t go all Serpico. If you expect others to be Serpico, you will have a long wait, I suspect.
It appears Andy has set the bar so high that the only good cops are those who resign, with the epiphany that victimless crimes are wrong and that therefore they cannot do their jobs in good conscience, or something.
You may not be surprised to hear that I don’t expect anyone to go all Serpico. People do what they gotta do. It kinda sucks that people have bills to pay and families to feed, but once they go down a career path, they get trapped.
This happens in private sector, too. The dot-com crash (which I participated in) and the real-estate crash had lots of people who saw the fraud and corruption but went along. Lines get VERY blurry, and lawyers, accountants and upper managements are masters of intimidation and misdirection.
But, then, I walked away from this unworkable white-hat/black-hat worldview that undergirds much R/R thought. It’s difficult/impossible for speakers of Basque and Hungarian to communicate, sadly.
https://www.facebook.com/honestcops
A truly good cop would do what truly good NSA contractor Edward Snowden, and truly good IRS agents Joe Banister and Sherry Peel Jackson did, and that is that they would resign, and do whatever they could to expose the rampant corruption and civil rights violations that these organizations commit.
When it comes to incidence of police abusing people, killing pets, etc, absolutely. Read http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Warrior-Cop-Militarization-Americas/dp/1610392116 if you get a chance.
Oh, we have some idea. There are many thousands of reports of bad behavior and it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that most incidents do not get reported. And since cops crossing the blue wall of silence are very rare, and there are many anecdotal reports from cops and ex-cops that the bad behavior of many cops is common knowledge among cops, if you expand the definition of bad cops to include those aware of the abuses and doing nothing about them, yes, most cops are bad. I can’t prove it beyond any doubt but I can say it with a high degree of confidence.
Maybe. But I’m not even sure of that. I don’t find it implausible that most cops are actually personally involved in corrupt and/or abusive behavior personally, although I am less confident about this.
As for not having any data…not true. It’s true we don’t have ALL the data, but we do have quite a bit, enough to show that problems are pervasive, not rare or isolated at all.
My friend Murv Jacob in Oklahoma posted this to Facebook. Things just keep getting worse and worse:
http://okpolicy.org/policing-for-profit-in-oklahoma?fb_action_ids=696393680378468&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B632458173441474%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.likes%22%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D
“Jill Pyeatt Post authorNovember 26, 2013 at 5:37 pm
My point exactly, RC. There’s no way we can know if there are more bad cops than good, so there’s no reason to debate it.”
It should be clearly apparent that there are more bad cops than good cops just based on the number of people who are in jail or prison or on probation or parole over victimless crimes. If these were really noble people, they would refuse to arrest people for victimless crimes.
My point exactly, RC. There’s no way we can know if there are more bad cops than good, so there’s no reason to debate it. At this point in time, in my opinion, I suspect that there are more bad cops, but that’s only my opinion.
JP, I see a rather large math problem here. Surely there are cops who do harmful things, and some other cops who don’t challenge the bad behavior of their colleagues. But we still have no data on either the incidence of bad behavior OR those who “let” this behavior happen. Yes it stands to reason that the “let-ters” might outnumber the doers, but we don’t have any data suggesting how widespread this behavior is.
RC, I answered in the manner I did because you tend to find one point to stick to, and you don’t move beyond that point. For example, there’s no way any of us can know if the actual number of cops committing these illegal and/or immoral acts is greater than the number who don’t because the problem is most likely vastly under reported, so I’m not going to go back and forth on the issue. The reason is that I believe that the fact that cops stand by and let their co-workers get away with this behavior makes them bad cops. Therefore, by my criteria, there are more bad cops than good cops.
“paulie November 26, 2013 at 1:03 pm
Yeah, we could name incidents like that all day and some people would still say it?s just a few bad apples.”
What is really scary is that we could sit here all day pointing out examples of the police being abusive and/or corrupt and still not come close to covering all of the stories about this that are online, and this does not even cover all of the examples of the police being abusive and/or corrupt that do not get reported. I’ve had my rights violated by the police on numerous occasions, and the only one that ever got reported was the incident in Maryland where I was illegally pepper sprayed and arrested for gathering legally required ballot access petition signatures in front of a public library.
https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2011/01/maryland-greens-and-libertarians-hand-in-signatures-petitioners-harassed-one-arrested-at-public-library/
The false charges that were filed against me by the police (who lied in their report, and conveniently did not even mention the fact that I was gathering signatures on state mandated ballot access petitions to place candidates on the ballot) did end up getting thrown out thanks to assistance from the ACLU of Maryland (and note that the ACLU admits that they are only able to take on a very tiny percentage of civil rights cases due to having limited resources), but the two cops who arrested me on false charges have thus far gotten away with their crime, thanks in part to the fact that it has been made very difficult, expensive, and time consuming to sue the police, especially for those who travel a lot, and even more so for those who do not regularly reside in the state where the rights violation took place.
I don’t think that any one person really knows just how bad the problems with the police being abusive and corrupt really is.
Yeah, we could name incidents like that all day and some people would still say it’s just a few bad apples. I get the feeling though that the infection has spread all throughout the barrel.
Here’s another story of cops being abusive. A Maryland cop hit a 19 year old in the head with a gun because he thought that he “looked suspicious” – never mind the fact that he had done nothing wrong, nor was there even a report that he had done something wrong – and then the cop lied about the incident, which resulted in the young man being locked in jail on false charges for 4 months.
Is this another example of the “noble servants” whom Judge Gray thinks that we should all thank, respect, and admire?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgHE8EVNMcU
Paul said: “I remember you got hassled for trying to shoot a home video in the street there.”
See above. This happened in the fall of 2009.
Incidentally, I made a stop in Philadelphia while on a trip a few years ago, and myself and the person whom was traveling with me walked around at Independence Hall, and while there I got out my video camera and had the person with whom I was traveling record me talking about the Declaration of Independence and the loss of liberty in the country, and while doing this we were approached by a “noble servant” cop who told us that we had to put the camera away because no recording was allowed at Independence Hall. Keep in mind that we were outside, there were not that many people around, and we were in no way causing a disturbance, in fact, I doubt that anyone else outside of the person holding the camera even heard what I was saying. I told the cop that him telling me that what he was doing violated the principles that are enshrined in both the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution, and that he should be ashamed of himself and that this was another sign of the loss of liberty in this country, but I did not bother to contest it further and just put the camera away and left after this because I did not have the time to hassle with it.
There is a war going on over the 1st amendment in this country, and the police are usually on the wrong side of it (as in they are usually on the anti-liberty side).
If I recall correctly it was on July 4? Or maybe that was another incldent there. I remember you got hassled for trying to shoot a home video in the street there. Also, in 2000 the Libertarian candidate was hassled for collecting petitions for himself over by the Liberty Bell iirc, on July 4, while Democratic and Republican politicians campaigned openly all over the area without any problem.
Here is a video of a husband and wife being arrested for passing out End The Federal Reserve fliers in front of Independence Hall – the place where the Declaration of Independence was signed – in Philadelphia, PA.
Is this another example of the “noble police officers” whom Judge Gray thinks that we should all thank, respect, and admire?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0vS8VTZ4Sw
On August 10, 1995, McVeigh was indicted on 11 federal counts, including conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction, use of a weapon of mass destruction, destruction by explosives and eight counts of first-degree murder. I’m pretty sure he was never out of jail again after that for the rest of his life. Aside from the fact that he was a Turner Diaries worshipping neo-nazi and thus the opposite of a libertarian, and Ilya Somin’s diligent research not finding any evidence to confirm the wikipedia claim that McVeigh voted for Browne, when would McVeigh have been free to do so even if he wanted to, which I doubt he would have?
JP, the reason it would need to establish that police corruption is the norm is for the same reason that we reject GUILT BY ASSOCIATION.
If McVeigh voted Browne as is reported, we’d not want to be considered guilty by THAT association, yes?
Plessy Proves Legislation Is Not Law
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1sqbePvpik
“16-Year-Old Jailed at Rikers for 3 Years Without Trial”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJMR56H6MA0
Paul said: “And that’s just the ones that get reported and picked up somewhere.”
Yes, this is an important thing to point out, and this is that many of the abuses committed by cops never get reported.
The problem is much worse than most people realize.
Just one page of headlines from reddit badcopsnodonut and this is very barely scratching the surface…
Cops: On Duty Officer Raped Young Woman On Squad Car – Neal has been placed on administrative leave with pay (breitbart.com)
Cops Spray Woman’s Vagina With Mace To “Punish” Her After Drug Arrest (benswann.com)
16-Year-Old Jailed at Rikers for 3 Years Without Trial. He says he spent more than 400 days in solitary confinement, was deprived of meals, and was assaulted and beaten both by officers and fellow inmates. Browder attempted suicide at least six times. (alternet.org)
Militarization of the civilian authorities? You don’t say? (i.imgur.com)
Since installing cameras at his store in June 2012, a Quickstop owner has amassed footage of police arresting people for trespassing despite them having permission to be at the store. An Employee has been put in jail 56 times, searched more than 100 times and questioned more than 250. (youtube.com)
[TX] Jasper woman gets $75,000 settlement in police brutality case. Two officers and a dispatcher fired. (11/25/2013) (12newsnow.com)
Another Mass State Trooper drunk driving off duty – Hit another trooper and bystander. All three injured (boston.com)
Nevada Lawmaker to Police: Please Stop Killing Our Dogs (nationaljournal.com)
Chicago Officer Charged in Off-Duty Fatal Shooting (nbcchicago.com)
Texas Police Officer Arrested for Handcuffing and Raping 19-Year-Old at Traffic Stop (videocafe.crooksandliars.com)
Police Receiving Leftover War Vehicles For ENFORCEMENT — USE! (foxnews.com)
ATTENTION anyone who was at the Minnesota Gophers vs. Wisconsin Badgers game on 11/23 – I was arrested in the Floco Courtyard before the game and need video evidence to prove excessive force! Please help! (self.Bad_Cop_No_Donut)
Cops to use licence to disqualify anyone guilty of anything (heraldsun.com.au)
19 year old reports being raped while handcuffed during traffic stop at 2 am by 11 year police veteran who has dismissed sexual allegations (rt.com)
Florida police officer charged with making harassing phone calls to his immediate supervisor (sun-sentinel.com)
Police Officer Admits Ordering Mentally Ill Black Man to Sing, Make Animal Noises (Video) (opposingviews.com)
Good Cop or Bad Cop #2 Detroit, Mi – Aug 2013 – 2 Cops Fight with 2 Young men (youtube.com)
San Antonio officer accused of rape in police car (newspressnow.com)
Off-duty State Police trooper facing DUI in Route 1 – admitted to using crack 1hr before ramming another cop’s car (myfoxboston.com)
Minneapolis cop cuts off bicyclist riding in bike lane. Cites bicyclist with interfering with arrest and being an unlawful parade. (m.startribune.com)
SPOILS OF WAR: POLICE GETTING LEFTOVER IRAQ TRUCKS (hosted.ap.org)
Cop in my town kidnaps then murders man with baseball bat for sleeping with his ex wife. Police chief calls and warns him of arrest warrant giving him time to bury body and flee. Chief gets suspended for 1 day. (thetowntalk.com)
There’s been so many of these stories I could literally sit here all day evry day doing that and still wouldn’t come close to posting eveything. And that’s just the ones that get reported and picked up somewhere.
A Noble Lie – The Oklahoma City Bombing 1995
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiDLHu8y1sc
“In reality, McVeigh was a neo-Nazi and his attack was inspired by the Turner Diaries, a 1978 tract that advocated the use of terrorism to overthrow the US and establish a government”
In reality, Timothy McVeigh was a patsy that the government used to blame the OKC bombing on so they could have an excuse to pass new legislation and increase their power and budget. McVeigh was used as a “boogey man” to demonize militias, gun owners, and people who are fearful of big government.
Either or both may be true.
Larken Rose: When Should You Shoot A Cop?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ9w1HHRMQw
“In reality, McVeigh was a neo-Nazi and his attack was inspired by the Turner Diaries, a 1978 tract that advocated the use of terrorism to overthrow the US and establish a government”
In reality, Timothy McVeigh was a patsy that the government used to blame the OKC bombing on so they could have an excuse to pass new legislation and increase their power and budget. McVeigh was used as a “boogey man” to demonize militias, gun owners, and people who are fearful of big government.
Jill Pyeatt said: ” So what if the bad cops committing those acts, such as killing family pets and conducting body cavity searches, are technically in the minority?”
Jill, I do not buy this myth that bad cops are in the minority. The majority of cops do not really give a rat’s behind about individual freedom. Look at the type of people who become cops. They are either control freaks, or unthinking conformists who blindly follow orders, as in not exactly the same type of people who get involved with the Libertarian Party or movement.
If they were really good people, they would refuse to enforce any laws that violate individual rights, like drug laws, gun control laws, etc… If they were really good people they would never trample on the rights of people who are engaging in first amendment activities, be they peaceful protestors, petition circulators, people handing out Fully Informed Jury Association pamphlets in front of court houses, street preachers, etc… If they were really good people, then there would not be a prison/jail population in this country where over half of the people in it are there for “crimes” where there was no victim.
I will say that there are different degrees of how bad a cop is, with some being worse than others, but I have to wonder if there really are any cops out there that are truly good.
People who don’t think that there is a problem with the police in this country, or who think that problems with cops are rare, are either delusional, uninformed, or they are intentionally lying.
http://www.volokh.com/2010/04/20/timothy-mcveigh-was-no-libertarian-conflating-two-types-of-anti-government-movements/
Timothy McVeigh Was No Libertarian: The Fallacy of Conflating Two Very Different Types of “Anti-Government” Movements
By Ilya Somin on April 20, 2010 4:00 pm in Libertarianism
Some commentators are associating the Oklahoma City bombings of 15 years ago and other far right violence with the rise of “anti-government” sentiment in opposition to the Obama health care bill and other recent expansions of federal spending and regulation. Former President Clinton’s recent New York Times op ed is a good example of this genre:
Byron York catalogues several other examples of similar rhetoric. From such statements, you might think that Timothy McVeigh and friends were libertarian foes of big government who hoped that their terrorist attacks would somehow lead to tighter constraints on government power.
Nothing, however, could be further from the truth. In reality, McVeigh was a neo-Nazi and his attack was inspired by the Turner Diaries, a 1978 tract that advocated the use of terrorism to overthrow the US and establish a government explicitly based on Nazi Germany. If you suffer through the experience of actually reading The Turner Diaries, as I did, you will find that author William Pierce did not support anything remotely resembling limited government; indeed, he explicitly repudiated limited government conservatism inthe book.
Rather, Pierce promotes the establishment of a totalitarian state modeled on Hitler’s (the book refers to Hitler as “the Great One”). There is absolutely no evidence that McVeigh’s attack or Pierce’s book were motivated by concerns about “American freedom” understood in a libertarian or conservative sense or that they sought to strike “a blow for liberty.” Rather, they were motivated by a desire to suppress Jews and non-whites and establish a Nazi-like “Aryan” state. Likewise, the original German Nazis also supported unconstrained government power, including in the economic realm. They weren’t the National Socialist Party for nothing.
If you study other instances of extremist right-wing violence in modern American history, most of it looks similar to McVeigh’s in the sense that it is motivated by racist, anti-Semitic, or authoritarian sentiments rather than a desire to limit the power of government. Think of the Ku Klux Klan (may of whom were economic populists, and favored a massive government role in enforcing segregation) or violence by various Neo-Nazi groups that, like McVeigh and Pierce, look to Nazi Germany as a model. The longtime Neo-Nazi activist who attacked the Holocaust Museum last year is a recent example of the latter. These people are “anti-government” only in the sense that they hate and fear the present government; by that definition communists are “anti-government” too. They have no general desire to constrain government power or to limit government control of the economy.
By contrast, the Tea Party movement that many seek to conflate with McVeigh is primarily motivated by wholly different concerns. As a recent New York Times survey concluded, “When talking about the Tea Party movement, the largest number of respondents [who were supporters of the movement] said that the movement’s goal should be reducing the size of government.”
This is not to say that it is completely impossible for genuinely anti-government libertarians or conservatives to engage in terrorist violence. The fact that such incidents have been vanishingly rare so far does not mean that they can’t happen. Nasty, potentially violent people can be found in almost any political movement. I don’t endorse the all too common assumption that depraved people are only found among our ideological opponents, whereas “our” side is morally pure.
It’s also true that statist racists and neo-Nazis have obvious reasons to hate Obama and that they might therefore try to latch on to movements that oppose the administration for wholly different reasons. That does not, however, make the latter racists or neo-Nazis themselves. Similarly, genuine communist totalitarians such as Fidel Castro (who called Obamacare “a miracle”) might endorse Obama’s health care plan as a step in the right direction. That does not mean that Obama himself is a communist.
The bottom line is that Clinton and others have drawn an unwarranted connection between “anti-government” movements that seek to limit government spending and regulation and a very different set of groups that have no real objection to big government as such. Instead, they seek to use massive state power to enforce racism, anti-Semitism, and neo-Nazi totalitarianism. No one should confuse that with a genuine anti-government ideology motivated by concerns about the fate of “American freedom.”
UPDATE: The point made in this post also undercuts claims that libertarian anti-government rhetoric somehow inspired McVeigh-like violence even if the libertarians don’t intend such a result. Clearly, the violence was actually inspired by neo-Nazi ideology that is very far removed from libertarianism (or even limited government conservatism).
UPDATE #2: In writing the initial post, I did not take sufficient account of McVeigh’s statements written while he was in prison. In this April 2001 letter to Fox News, McVeigh describes his motive for the attack as “retaliation” for the federal government’s “increasingly militaristic and violent” actions, including the 1993 Waco incident. This is not inconsistent with the neo-Nazi ideology of the Turner Diaries, since most of the actions in question seem to have been against far right groups. Still, it could be interpreted in a more libertarian “anti-government” sense as well. The letter also includes attacks on US foreign policy similar to those made by various groups on the far right and far left.
McVeigh’s wikipedia entry claims that he described himself as a “libertarian” while he was in prison and voted for Libertarian Party presidential candidate Harry Browne in 1996, citing various news reports. However, extensive research in the Lexis-Nexis and Westlaw newspaper data bases finds no corroboration for this wikipedia claim, except for a 2001 Washington Post article (not available online, as far as I can tell) that quotes McVeigh as saying he was a libertarian in the context of expressing his position on vegetarianism. There is no corroboration for his supposedly having voted for Browne.
On balance, I see no reason to alter my bottom line conclusion on McVeigh. When you look at the evidence that emerged from the time of the attack itself, it is clear that The Turner Diaries was the principal inspiration. I suspect that in later years, McVeigh sought to characterize his motives in ways that would be more likely to win a measure of mainstream sympathy and perhaps help him avoid the death penalty. Still, this additional evidence is relevant and I thought I should point it out.
UPDATE #3: Some commenters and people who have e-mailed note possible pre-attack statements by McVeigh that point in an anti-government direction. In my view, these either 1) predate his reading of the Turner Diaries, or 2) are compatible with hating the existing US government without opposing big government generally (the view held by Pierce and other neo-Nazis). I also think it’s very clear that The Turner Diaries was the book that actually precipitated his attack, even if he hated various aspects of US government policy previously. I do have to acknowledge, however, that McVeigh’s thought turns out to be more complex and multifaceted than I initially thought, and it’s arguable that his position was a hodgepodge of different views hostile to the US government, some of them inspired by neo-Nazism, but others much less so.
“Robert Capozzi November 25, 2013 at 9:59 pm
Andy, Timothy McVeigh voted for Harry Browne. Should those who disapprove of McVeigh’s behavior not vote L?”
I’ve never heard of Timothy McVeigh having voted for Harry Browne. I heard that he once sent away for an information packet about the Libertarian Party, but that was it.
Also, I think that there is substantial evidence that says that Timothy McVeigh was a patsy, and that the OKC bombing was an inside job, as in a false flag operation carried out by factions within the government.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bad_Cop_No_Donut/
Other Subreddits
/r/Forfeiture
/r/AmIFreeToGo
/r/Police_v_Video
/r/PuppyCide (Police shot your Dog?)
/r/Good_Cop_Free_Donut
/r/Prisons
/r/ExCons
/r/badgovnofreedom
RC, why does PF need to establish that bad cops are the norm? There are bad cops stories from all over the country, and they seem to be getting worse. So what if the bad cops committing those acts, such as killing family pets and conducting body cavity searches, are technically in the minority? If the cops on their force are allowig it to happen, they’re bad cops, too, in my book.
And I haven’t see anyone establish any reason other than faith for me to suppose that it isn’t.
“Robert Capozzi November 25, 2013 at 10:09 pm
PF, Andy cites ONE incident and extrapolating wildly.”
I cited multiple incidents. No wild extrapolation is necessary.
“I know of no evidence that corrupt cops are the norm OR the exception”
I’d say that corrupt cops and/or cops who violate people’s civil rights, are the norm.
“Robert Capozzi November 25, 2013 at 9:59 pm
Andy, Timothy McVeigh voted for Harry Browne. Should those who disapprove of McVeigh’s behavior not vote L?”
I don’t know what the relevance of this question is.
PF, yes, there are a lot incidents. You nowhere that I’ve seen established that police corruption is the norm.
We’ve cited lots of incidents and links to a lot more in these threads, but there are of course far many more that have never been reported.
I know of no evidence that corrupt cops are the norm OR the exception. But my guess is that if all acts by cops added up to one million per day, the corrupt ones might by 10,000 or less.
If it’s more like 600,000, I’da thunk I’da heard about it….
News reaches some people faster than it does others.
PF, Andy cites ONE incident and extrapolating wildly.
I know of no evidence that corrupt cops are the norm OR the exception. But my guess is that if all acts by cops added up to one million per day, the corrupt ones might by 10,000 or less.
If it’s more like 600,000, I’da thunk I’da heard about it….
Andy, Timothy McVeigh voted for Harry Browne. Should those who disapprove of McVeigh’s behavior not vote L?
IOW, do exceptions make for rules in your mind?
Which of Andy’s comments are you responding to?
Or are you taking it as a self-evident truism that dirty, corrupt and abusive thug cops are the exception and not the rule?
When fucking the police make sure to use protection; there are a lot of dirty cops out there…
Andy, Timothy McVeigh voted for Harry Browne. Should those who disapprove of McVeigh’s behavior not vote L?
IOW, do exceptions make for rules in your mind?
After having my own rights violated by the police on multiple occasions, I can see why somebody would be inspired to write a song with lyrics like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M8vei3L0L8
Here is video of the police in Dallas, TX – who obviously have no respect for the 1st amendment – assaulting peaceful protestors in who were assembled in Dealey Plaza to protest the official government story about the JFK assassination on the 50th anniversary of this event.
And Judge Gray thinks that we should admire the police and thank them?
Rampaging Federalized Police Attack First Amendment Demonstrators
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxYqpfUdths#t=127
That would be even better!
“paulie November 25, 2013 at 10:54 am
Since Judge Gray responded to the Opposing Views on Policeman, I’m wondering if we could get him to also reply to Judge Napolitano and IPR readers about Teddy Roosevelt as well.”
I’d love to see a debate between Judge Gray and Judge Napolitano.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSh_6n_haWw
Since Judge Gray responded to the Opposing Views on Policeman, I’m wondering if we could get him to also reply to Judge Napolitano and IPR readers about Teddy Roosevelt as well.
?Americans Killed by (Since 9/11) Cops Now Outnumber Americans Killed in Iraq War
http://filmingcops.com/2013/11/13/americans-killed-by-police/
Here’s a music video of the Washington petitioner being surrounded and harassed by police and guys in military uniforms (what in the heck were guys in military uniforms doing there?) set to the tune of the song “For What It’s Worth” by Buffalo Springfield. This is a common intimidation tactic that the police use against petition circulators as well as against others who engage in 1st amendment activities, that is having multiple cops show up, even if there are only one or two petitioners, and surrounding them so they are cut off from the public. I’ve had times where I was gathering signatures by myself and 5 or 6 cops showed up to surround and intimidate me. I’ve had private security guards do the same thing. This has even happened when I have not had petitions with me and was attempting to talk to whoever was “in charge” of said location to try to work it out so I could gather petition signatures there without being harassed by the police and/or security guards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_8MB-Gp46w
Here’s another video from the same petition circulator from the state of Washington, where they are told by the police that they have to stand in a “free speech zone” which is sectioned off in a public park where a festival is being held, and which is also so far from where most of the people are that they will not be able to gather very many signatures, and they are threatened with arrest if the ask people to sign the petition outside of the “free speech zone.” This is a common tactic that is used against petition circulators on college campuses, in parks, at public festivals, and in other locations. Once again, the cops are flat out wrong, and they are violating both the state and federal constitution, as well state and federal statutes, and there are also multiple court rulings which clearly indicate that they are wrong, but hey, they’ve got shiny badges and guns and clubs so they can do whatever they want and get away with it in most cases.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVW4sP9UZRE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2PGIRRCHo8
Here is a video of a petition circulator in Washington being harassed and run out of a public bus transit center by two police officers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2PGIRRCHo8
Now I will say that the police officers in this video were not particularly rude (I’ve seen police officers get really nasty in confrontations with petition circulators as well as in other types of confrontations), but they were flat out wrong and they did violate this petition circulator’s rights, as well as the rights of anyone at the transit center who wanted to sign the petition, as well as the proponents of the petition, as well as anyone in the state who wanted the petition to qualify for the ballot. I have gathered signatures on petitions in Washington on several occasions, so I’m familiar with the law there in regard to this activity, plus I’m also familiar with multiple court rulings at both the state and federal level in regard to this activity, so I know damn well that these cops are flat out wrong.
I heard about this exact situation happening at this same location when I was working on a petition drive in Washington a few years ago. I was not there, but I heard about it from other people. The cops harassed and ran some petitioners out of this bus transit stop and there were some phone calls that went back and forth between the petitioners and/or petition coordinators and I believe it was the city attorney’s office, and the police ended up backing down and the petitioners were able to go back. As often happens in these situations, the fact that the police were told to back down is either forgotten or is intentionally swept under the rug, and they go back to harassing and running off petition circulators again a few months or years later. This is one of the reasons why ballot access is so difficult.
http://reason.com/blog/2013/11/12/if-nyc-police-are-worried-about-new-crim
If NYC Police Are Worried About New Crime Wave They Should All Wear Video Cameras
Thank you for clarifying Mr. Perry. I absolutely agree with you, then.
You may well be right. I hope other IPR writers join us in submitting some opinions for each other to publish.
I might do one on the Affordable Care Act. I’m not in the health insurance business, but I understand insurance. I think the economic chaos coming up is far worse than any of us are prepared for.
Jill, thanks for posting https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2013/11/paulie-response-to-derek-hunter-at-townhall-on-the-problem-with-libertarians/ .. We should start posting each other’s opinion columns more (I don’t mean just you and me as individuals but other IPR writers too).
Let me clarify my question: “Could it be that the ‘good cops’ are in fact the minority?”
This does not imply that the “bad apples” are the majority, rather that a plurality of cops are apathetic!
Thanks for your comment about making them separate articles, Paulie. I considered that, but decided one article was better for posting to Facebook for discussion and for forwarding to Judge Gray. If I get any more, they’ll probably be posted individually.
I’ve sent the article to Judge Gray.
I just found this:
http://libertycrier.com/firing-bad-cop-damn-near-impossible/?utm_source=The+Liberty+Crier&utm_campaign=184e2dca20-The_Liberty_Crier_Daily_News_11_13_2013&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_600843dec4-184e2dca20-284901389
That too.
“I think most cops probably think they’re doing the right thing”
Some of the most dangerous people around are people who do bad things, but believe that they are doing good.
Jill, thanks for posting the article. My one nit pick is that I think they would have been better off being separate articles.
Sure, I’d love to. Along similar lines, I saved an opinion piece by myself (not about the police issue) under your name as IPR article author (but explaining that it is an opinion by me) in drafts. Take a look and if you are OK with it please go ahead and publish it.
Jed
Well, a majority haven’t, but I don’t know that they wouldn’t. I didn’t see anywhere that Darryl went overboard. At the very least it’s a fact that very, very few cops, whether good or bad themselves, ever cross the blue line of silence that protects the bad cops.
Maybe. Or maybe most cops don’t really think too much about what’s wrong and what’s right. Or don’t care. Or feel that the end justifies the means.
Andy
True
Anyone who has done a lot of petition signature gathering knows that most police officers do not give a rat’s behind about the 1st amendment, relative court rulings in regard to free speech and petition signature gathering, election laws, or any codes or statutes that are supposed to protect people’s rights to engage in free speech activities.
Pros & cons to what everyone wrote, including Judge Gray. I tend to have a more negative outlook toward the police, but I think Mr. Perry goes a bit overboard, with all due respect. I don’t think the bad apples are the majority, meaning I don’t think the majority of cops would blindly kill innocent people or pets. I do think, nay, know, that there is a blue code: protect your fellow officers at all costs, even when they’re in the wrong. This attitude, which is prevalent in every police force in America, breeds bad cops.
I think most cops probably think they’re doing the right thing, though often they’re very wrong & bound by very bad laws. However, there are bad cops, more than we’d like to think, there is police corruption, there is police racism (stop & frisk, anyone?), and there is a blue code. Don’t be naive: the state is not your friend.
Be as respectful to the police as you would be anyone else, but don’t trust an armed authoritarian with your life & best interests.
I’ll send this to Judge Gray tomorrow. Also, I can add an article as an update or write a second article if anyone else wants to write something. I might try to write something about the killing of family pets in the next few days, in which case Paulie or Chris can perhaps post it for me.