Judge Gray: The Police As Noble Public Servants

Judge Gray

The Functional Libertarian
October 31, 2013

One of the most noble public servant positions in our society is a police officer. These men and women often have difficult jobs, and frequently do not get the credit and appreciation they deserve. When I was a child my parents drummed into me that “if I was lost I should find a policeman, because they are my friends.” I still believe that, but, unfortunately, we don’t hear those sentiments too often these days.

Why is that? Well, one reason is that, with the policy of Drug Prohibition, often the police are seen, at least in some neighborhoods, as an occupying force. Another is that, with many cities in such financial distress, the police are sometimes “strongly encouraged” by mayors and city managers to write more traffic citations. I view this as a corruption of our criminal justice system, because it should never be seen as a revenue-gathering source.

In addition, while no one likes receiving a traffic ticket, most people will accept the situation if they believe they reasonably deserve it. But if the process is seen as arbitrary or unfair, most people will carry a prolonged grudge, which reduces the reservoir of good will for government in general. And that is not a good thing for any society.

In some ways all of us citizens can help the police. For example, if you are ever stopped for a traffic citation, remember to lower your car window, and then keep your hands in plain sight on the steering wheel. That will take away much of the stress for the police officer, which should help everyone. Furthermore, if/when you are asked for your driver’s license, car registration and insurance information, remember to tell the officer where they are, and ask him or her if you may get them. That response will have the same effect.

Tragically, many police have been shot by drivers or passengers when they approached a car in these traffic situations. Put yourself in their position, the police officers frequently have almost no idea who the drivers are, or what trouble or frame of mind they may be in. Therefore, the police officers are frequently and understandably on guard. So some consideration by us drivers to alleviate their concerns will certainly be appreciated.

Nevertheless, no matter what the circumstances, we as citizens have a right to expect that our police officers will act as trained professionals at all times. So even if some low-life people swear or even spit on them, the police simply cannot be allowed to overreact. Of course, they can and should report those actions to prosecutors so that the perpetrators can be held accountable for their actions. But if the police take that punishment into their own hands, they should expect to be disciplined or even prosecuted themselves. If you think about it, there is no reasonable alternative to this result.

Functional Libertarians believe that people at all levels of society should and must be held responsible for their actions – and the higher the position of trust they hold, the higher the standards of behavior should be. For example, judges know and expect that we will be held to a higher level of conduct than the average person, and that also should apply to anyone in public office, including the police. Since they have the authority to stop, detain and even arrest just about anyone under any circumstances there must be consequences if that power is ever abused.

Nevertheless, during my many years as a federal prosecutor and a judge, I personally dealt with thousands of police officers in almost any conceivable circumstance that one could imagine. And, with only rare exceptions, they made me proud of them. Yes, in hindsight, some things could have been done better. But most of them proved to me, time and again, that they were trained professionals and true public servants in the fullest sense of the word.

So please join me, whenever you have the chance, in expressing your appreciation to the police that you encounter in your daily life. In almost every case, your appreciation will be richly deserved.

James P. Gray is a retired judge of the Orange County Superior Court, the author of “A Voter’s Handbook: Effective Solutions to America’s Problems” (The Forum Press, 2010), and the 2012 Libertarian candidate for Vice President, along with Governor Gary Johnson as the candidate for President. Judge Gray can be contacted at JimPGray@sbcglobal.net.

76 thoughts on “Judge Gray: The Police As Noble Public Servants

  1. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I have such a problem with the message that it took me over a week to post this. In light of the horrid police abuses going on, I simply can’t consider policemen as noble servants. They’re a long way from that, at this time in history.

  2. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I just re-read the article. Judge Gray must not be reading Facebook and about all the atrocious pet-murders and roadside rapes (also known as cavity checks) going on across the country. I have a friend in town here who is married to a cop–a prison guard, actually. Well, he’s my friend, too. She asked me one day why I posted so many articles about bad cops on Facebook, and she assured me that all cops aren’t bad, and that some of them agonize over things they’ve seen and participated in during the day.. I promised her I’d post every good cop article I find, and I have. Needless to say, the bad cop articles outnumber the good by 15- or 20- to one.

    It’s time for good cops to step up and rid their ranks of the bad ones, or lawsuits will put the police departments out of business.

  3. Andy

    Jill Pyeatt said: “It’s time for good cops to step up and rid their ranks of the bad ones,”

    There wouldn’t be that many very many cops left if this happened.

    “or lawsuits will put the police departments out of business.”

    Far easier said than done. Cops violate people’s rights on a regular basis. They get away with most of the crimes they commit because it is so difficult, time consuming, and expensive to sue them, and even when somebody successfully navigates through the hoops and is able to sue them, the money they win usually comes from the tax payers and not from the cop, and bad cops rarely lose their jobs.

    I talked to an ACLU attorney a few years ago who told me they did nothing but sue the police for civil rights violations for a few years, and they never saw a cop get fired.

  4. Andy

    “One of the most noble public servant positions in our society is a police officer.”

    LOL! Maybe in fantasyland, but not in the real world.

  5. paulie

    Perhaps he would be more comfortable reading a book?

    http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Warrior-Cop-Militarization-Americas/dp/1610392116

    The last days of colonialism taught America’s revolutionaries that soldiers in the streets bring conflict and tyranny. As a result, our country has generally worked to keep the military out of law enforcement. But according to investigative reporter Radley Balko, over the last several decades, America’s cops have increasingly come to resemble ground troops. The consequences have been dire: the home is no longer a place of sanctuary, the Fourth Amendment has been gutted, and police today have been conditioned to see the citizens they serve as an other—an enemy.

    Today’s armored-up policemen are a far cry from the constables of early America. The unrest of the 1960s brought about the invention of the SWAT unit—which in turn led to the debut of military tactics in the ranks of police officers. Nixon’s War on Drugs, Reagan’s War on Poverty, Clinton’s COPS program, the post–9/11 security state under Bush and Obama: by degrees, each of these innovations expanded and empowered police forces, always at the expense of civil liberties. And these are just four among a slew of reckless programs.

    In Rise of the Warrior Cop, Balko shows how politicians’ ill-considered policies and relentless declarations of war against vague enemies like crime, drugs, and terror have blurred the distinction between cop and soldier. His fascinating, frightening narrative shows how over a generation, a creeping battlefield mentality has isolated and alienated American police officers and put them on a collision course with the values of a free society.

  6. Nicholas Sarwark

    Judge Gray needs to read Balko’s book. I don’t know how long it’s been since he was a prosecutor, but there’s a pretty broad spectrum of police behavior that I see. The good officers are like the picture he paints, but the bad ones go well beyond “some things could have been done better.”

  7. From Der Sidelines

    What’s a good cop? Is that one of those mythological creatures we hear about but never actually see, like a dodo bird, a unicorn, a Democrat or Republican balanced budget, or Wayne Allyn Root as a libertarian?

  8. paulie

    I’ve had cops that have treated me decently and cut me a break when they did not have to. I don’t know if that means they were good cops or just felt like being nice that day. That sort of thing is happening less and less though. Presuming good cops exist, they hardly ever feel empowered to break the blue wall of silence that protects bad cops. And I don’t necessarily blame them – the few times that cops have broken it, they have often suffered severe consequences.

    Things have gotten a lot worse on the police front since I was a kid, but I did grow up in what was then one of the most high crime neighborhoods of NYC. What passed for a good cop in our local precinct was one cop who, as far as I know, all he ever did on his job was steal joints from kids who were smoking them openly in public all shift long and smoke them. He would smoke probably 40 joints a night. The rest of the cops in that precinct were much worse.

  9. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Would someone like to write a rebuttal to Judge Gray that we can post here? Something along the lines of, “How Things Have Changed”? I think it might be an interesting article for him to address, if in fact he does fun for the 2016 nomination.

  10. Andy

    “George Phillies November 10, 2013 at 2:17 pm
    Remember, this guy is being identified as out Presidential nominee in 2016.”

    Gray seems like a nice fellow, but I would not support him for the LP Presidential nomination unless he changes his stance on jury nullification (he opposes it), and perhaps a few other stances he takes.

  11. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I think we should consider Judge Gray a serious coontender for the Presidential nomination. I think that’s a primary reason he’s doing these article, although it might be simply for publication in his local paper. This is why I’m suggesting a dialog on article many Libertarians disagree with.

  12. Andy

    “Nicholas Sarwark November 10, 2013 at 8:40 am
    Judge Gray needs to read Balko’s book.”

    It also may help if he went out and spent some time dealing with the police in the real world. If Gray went out on the road and worked as a petition circulator for a few months I bet that he’d change his opinion of the police pretty quickly.

    My experience in dealing with the police is that most of them are power tripping egomaniac assholes who don’t give a rat’s behind about the Bill of Rights, and who actually get offended when a regular “citizen” expresses any knowledge of the law or even questions their “authority” in any way. I’ve had cops flat out lie to my face, and I’ve witnessed them lying to other people.

    A lot of cops are also completely useless when you actually report a legitimate crime to them. I remember years ago a person in the neighborhood I was in (which was a place where crime was rare) had their motorcycle stolen. I happened to stumble upon it in this patch of woods where I used to take hikes. I went to the person house and told them that I found their motorcycle in the woods, and I took them to where it was located. It had already been stripped for parts, but there were plenty of footprints in the mud, and there were probably finger prints of the thieves on the motorcycle. There was a local cop who went lived in the neighborhood, so we went to him to report the crime. We told the cop where the motorcycle was, and offered to take him to it, and I even said that I think that I knew who the thieves were, and I said that he should investigate these kids that lived a few blocks away. I figured that the cop would thank me, and that he’d come down to the patch of woods to see the motorcycle, and that the police would do an investigation of the crime scene, and that they’d take the foot prints in the mud and take the finger prints off the motorcycle, and also check out those kids a few block away who I suspected of being the ones who stole the motorcycle. What did this cop do? NOTHING. He acted like he did not give a shit and said something like, “Go file a report.” The police never did any kind of investigation or follow up. This cop was a real ass too, as he’d harass people over petty nonsense, but when he had a real crime that probably would have been easy to solve fall into his lap, he did nothing. This was a reality check about the true nature of the police to me.

  13. paulie

    Would someone like to write a rebuttal to Judge Gray that we can post here?

    Good idea. I might do it, but I’d prefer it if other people beat me to it.

  14. paulie

    My experience in dealing with the police is that most of them are power tripping egomaniac assholes who don’t give a rat’s behind about the Bill of Rights, and who actually get offended when a regular “citizen” expresses any knowledge of the law or even questions their “authority” in any way. I’ve had cops flat out lie to my face, and I’ve witnessed them lying to other people.

    A lot of cops are also completely useless when you actually report a legitimate crime to them.

    Yep!

  15. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Perhaps another potential 2016 candiate would be interested? Darryl or George? Okay, I can’t see George writng an article about bad cops. I’d still like a rebuttal to Judge Gray, however. I’ll put the call out on Facebook.

  16. Andy

    My experience in dealing with the police is also that many of them are the type of people who mindlessly follow orders, and most of the people who give them orders are also power tripping assholes. I have no doubt that there are many cops in this country who would have no problem with implementing tyranny, because most of them are already doing it, even though we have not reached say a North Korea level of tyranny, at least not yet anyway. I bet that there are a lot of cops who, if given an order to round up libertarians, and ship them off to concentration camps, would do it, and some of the most twisted among them would actually enjoy doing it.

  17. Andy

    “So please join me, whenever you have the chance, in expressing your appreciation to the police that you encounter in your daily life.”

    This quote from the article makes me want to puke.

  18. Andy

    “From Der Sidelines November 10, 2013 at 2:03 pm
    What’s a good cop? Is that one of those mythological creatures we hear about but never actually see, like a dodo bird, a unicorn, a Democrat or Republican balanced budget, or Wayne Allyn Root as a libertarian?”

    You neglected to mention the mythical creature known as the Ronald Reagan Libertarian, unless by Ronald Reagan Libertarian you really mean a person who sort of talks like a Libertarian sometimes, but then does the opposite of what they said when they sort of talked like a Libertarian.

  19. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I have put a call out of Facebook for someone to write a rebuttal. I’m quite serious about this. Please spread the word.

  20. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Norma Jean Almodovar (From Cop to Call Girl) said she’s a little too busy to write something, but posted some links to sources on my Facebook page. I have a feeling I’ll have a few responses here to post.

  21. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    The situation with cops is absolutely out of control and should be utterly unacceptable to any civilized person. The good cops that are left need to step up and start ridding their ranks of the psychopaths.

  22. paulie

    The situation with cops is absolutely out of control and should be utterly unacceptable to any civilized person. The good cops that are left need to step up and start ridding their ranks of the psychopaths.

    Agreed!

    Unfortunately, they may not feel safe in doing so.

  23. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    This is why Oathkeepers is such an important organization. All dramatics aside, I think that organization could make the difference between our country being taken over to martial law, or not.

  24. langa

    It’s not surprising that Gray thinks highly of cops. Being a former judge and prosecutor, I’m sure he’s used to cops kissing his ass, so I guess he’s just returning the favor. If he got out in the real world, I think he would see that most cops are a lot less respectful to normal people than they are to federal prosecutors and judges. Based on my experience, I’d say at least 70% of the cops are assholes, and almost all of the others are enablers of the assholes.

    Some of these “Functional Libertarian” articles are almost as embarrassing to the LP as Root’s interviews. Maybe “functional” is a euphemism for “old, rich white guy who’s out of touch with reality”, in which case, I would suggest the LP do its best to remain non-functional.

  25. Matt Cholko

    I almost second what langa says above. However, I don’t think its as embarrassing as Root’s crap, because Gray doesn’t sound like a used car salesman. The stuff he is selling sometimes is just as bad, but the delivery is much less off-putting.

    With that being said, I see about 50% of Gray’s writings as improperly representing Libertarianism.

  26. Andy

    langa said: “langa November 10, 2013 at 8:21 pm
    It’s not surprising that Gray thinks highly of cops. Being a former judge and prosecutor, I’m sure he’s used to cops kissing his ass,”

    BINGO! I was going to make the same comment. Yes, cops are going to treat a federal prosecutor and judge a lot better than they are going to treat most people. Also, as an upper class, older white guy who probably doesn’t do anything that is more “radical” than run for office as a minor party candidate, he has probably been fortunate to not see the “other side” or the “dark side” of the police that a lot of the rest of us have seen.

  27. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I’m pleased to say that I’ve received a second rebuttal to Judge Gray’s article. I hope to receive a couple more, and then I’ll string them into an article to post here.

  28. Thane Eichenauer (@ilovegrover)

    JP quote “In light of the horrid police abuses going on, I simply can’t consider policemen as noble servants”

    All policeman start their day as human beings, some go to work and use their power to harm people in various ways. Others do the job they were paid to do in the manner they believe they should. Some become elected sheriffs like Richard Mack, others become elected sheriffs like Joe Arpaio. My opinion changes depending on how recently a police officer has pointed a firearm at me and the reasonableness of the reason he gave as to why he did what he did.

  29. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I’m renewing my request for people to write rebuttals to this article. I’ve received two so far. I’ll probably post the ones I’ve received in an article tomorrow, so if you want to say something, please send it to me by tomorrow evening: stone@altrionet.com.

    I wish someone would write about the family pets killed. I can’t do it because I can’t even read the articles. It just breaks my heart too much.

  30. J.D.

    I just read this for the first time and I am really really offended. First, I make my living as a professional security officer which does throw me into the public safety field. I mention that just as a matter of full disclosure. Second, all police officers I have ever met, except for two, have been complete and total asses. They don’t know the laws, they don’t respect anyone, and they are lazy. At the very least my security officers are taught a little bit about customer service and respect towards others.

    I was suggested as a possible Sheriff candidate for the LP here in Evansville and my main platform was nullification. In essence I was to set the priority for the department which is all the Sheriff does anyway. While it was a full nullification platform of federal laws it would have left in tact anything involving wreckless endangerment of human life. I was also going to mandate customer service training for all deputies, which was to be paid out of their pockets.

    What was the response? Occupy loved it, tea-partiers threatened me, and the LP pissed their pants because I was too radical. So that was the end of my candidacy.

    In short, it is really easy to just say respect the police and they will respect you, unless you have actually had to deal with them on the personal of professional level. I have had the misfortune of doing both. My brother and I both had our apartments broken in to in the state of Kentucky for God knows what reason. We were never told why the cops barged in. All I know is they pointed a rifle in my brothers face. Lets also not mention the night I was pulled over driving my girlfriend home because I didnt turn down the street the officer thought I was turning down. He literally said he pulled me over because I turned down the wrong street. I also wont forget the fact that a Kentucky State Trooper literally escorted me out of Owensboro my last day there. My stuff had already been moved to Indiana. I was in my vehicle and had just dropped off my apartment key and the piece of pig shit followed me from my apartment all the way across the Indiana line.

    If any of you still think there is even 1% of the police in this country that are decent look up Chavis Carter. Officially this guy was wearing nothing but shorts, had been frisked by police, was handcuffed, and placed in the back of a cruiser. Chavis seems to have pulled a gun out of his hind parts, removed the cuffs, shot himself, and them managed to slip back into the cuffs post-mortem. That is the official story. Explain that one Judge Gray.

  31. Andy

    JD said: “Second, all police officers I have ever met, except for two, have been complete and total asses. They don’t know the laws, they don’t respect anyone, and they are lazy.”

    This has been my experience with most police officers as well.

    “At the very least my security officers are taught a little bit about customer service and respect towards others.”

    A lot of security guards that I’ve encountered are just as bad, if not worse, than the police. The only good thing is that they do not have as much power as the police.

  32. J.D.

    Andy, I was only speaking about those that work for my company. They are all well versed in customer service and understand the very limited scope of their authority. Well trained and respectful security officers help make a very good case for private police. You can fire employees. It’s much harder to get rid of entrenched public servants.

    As for the two cops I happen to be friends with, they are good guys that mean well, but they aren’t exactly enlightened when it comes to the law. They think that the ends justify the means and that any ordr always means they are making people safer. In short they are drones. I like them but we don’t discuss the law.

  33. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I got it, Darryl, and it’s very good. I’m glad you have links to back up what you say. I’ll put the three opinions I’ve received into an article tonight.

  34. Joe

    Disgusting.

    Interestingly I had the following email exchange about this issue with the Judge a year and a week earlier.

    On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Jim Gray wrote:
    Hi Joe,

    I am so sorry this happened to you! Unfortunately, things like happen far too often. But what you have is a problem of proof. As you will recall, the Rodney King case would have never gone anywhere but for a video tape, and yours probably will not either.

    As I know you agree, we need leadership that sets the example for honest police work, and one that will screen out and hold accountable aberrant behavior like you described.

    Otherwise, I have no suggestions to make to you, other than to go on with your life, and not to speak unnecessarily to the police. (What a sad piece of advice to have to give!)

    Jim

    On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Joseph Buchman wrote:
    Judge,

    I don’t want to bother you with this during the campaign, but Grant and others here at the HQ (where I’m writing while listening to the debate) thought you should know that I was (as I understand the legal term) assaulted (but not battered) by two Long Beach city police officers.

    The incident occurred at about 11pm at the Long Beach CA airport where the two officers had been tending to my 15 year old daughter after she was bumped from a Delta flight out of Salt Lake City and left alone at the airport for about 2 hours. My wife (her mother) thought she would be fine in the secure area of the airport until I arrived and was assured of that by the Delta agents in SLC who promised to take care of her.

    Instead, the airport terminal was under construction in Long Beach and closed early. She was directed to the rental car area where the rental car agents called the police.

    I got there as quickly as possible and upon arrival was asked for my ID which I provided. I was then asked to step out of the vehicle (my Roadtrek RV), my daughter was directed some distance away from me and I was told that because of my “Libertarian poster” (in the back window), my “driving a van” and the fact that I had been at a “UFO conference” (false, BTW, I was at a campaign event in Marina Del Ray with Sara Bales and the GJ Van, and had been blocked in by other cars which, in part, cause the delay) . . . that they would investigate me.

    I was never loud nor rude but pulled out my handout from copblock.org about what to say to the police. I asked what they needed to investigate given my ID showed who I was, that my daughter had identified me as her dad, that my wife had spoken to them on the phone.

    I was asked what business I had in southern California and what my plans were. I said “I don’t know. What does this have to do with your investigation?” (I honestly did not know, we had planned to go on to Disneyland, but my back was hurting, the RV was having mechanical problems, and I really just wasn’t sure what we would do).

    One of the two officers then got within an inch of my face and screamed something to the effect of — you don’t know what you’re facing. We will impound you van, put you in jail, put your daughter in child protective custody and make your wife fly down here to get her.”

    I said, if you know she is my daughter, then I would like to leave with her now. Am I being detained? May I have my driver’s license back and be on my way?

    I was then told that while I might speak to the “small town cops back home that way” I had “no idea who I was dealing with” and to sit down on a nearby bench. I asked if I could stand (I had had back surgery 3 years ago and I was in awful pain). The officer then came back to within an inch of my face and said, “You just want to punch me don’t you?” and “You’re just trying to stare me down, but you have no idea what you’re up against” so I looked away from him. At that moment he spun me around, told me to spread my legs and put my arms to my side. I put the cop block handout in my pocket which was very upsetting to him and he forcibly pulled my hands behind my back while he frisked me and said, “Do you have any weapons on you? Is there anything I should know about?”

    His partner said, “You better start answering his questions.”

    I said, “I don’t have any weapons. You know who I am. Am I being detained? If not I would like to leave with my child now.”

    They walked away from me to talk to each other and I started for the door to my van — the window was down and I wanted to turn off the headlights before the battery died.

    One of the officers screamed at me — YOU ARE NOT GETTING BACK IN THAT VAN.

    I said, I just want to turn off the lights.

    Before I could stop him he reached into the open window and turned off the lights.

    I said, I did not give you permission to enter my RV!!!!

    At about that time the other officer give me back my driver’s license and told me to be on my way.

    He said something like “You’re free to go Mr. Buchman. Hope you appreciated our taking care of your abandoned daughter.” (or something to that effect).

    I said, “It’s Dr. Buchman and officer, really, Thank You for being there for Anna. I wish this had been different.”

    And then I drove away scared to death they, or their buddies, would then pull me over for a minor traffic violation.

    I had also been scared that they would plant drugs or other “evidence” in the van, and that this was getting very dangerous.

    I consider their behavior outrageous. I believe all of this should be on various security cameras positioned at the airport (this all occurred just outside of the car rental area, I believe).

    To their credit they did not hit me, although it seemed clear to me the one playing the “bad cop” wanted me to hit or push him — I was exceedingly calm and physically passive — (kinda like I was observing what was happening more than fully present). They also did not plant evidence (as far as I know) — BTW, I have never done drugs of any kind ever. But I have a Burning Man sticker on my spare tire cover (along with lots of other bumper stickers), and a large LIVE FREE poster in the back window.

    I was scared nearly out of my wits, and disgusted that they would mention the Libertarian poster on the van, or imply that because I was driving a van/RV there was some special risk to my child.

    I feel stupid. I should have recorded the incident on my cell phone (Which I left in the van). And I should have turned off the lights, rolled up the window and locked the van after getting out.

    Two questions:

    1) Is there anything I should do to report what I thought was horribly abusive behavior to other authorities there — (I could not sleep that night, and had a miserable time for the next day)

    2) What should I have done differently, if anything and/or what should I do if something similar happens in the future?

    I gather I should have gotten their badge numbers and/or names and have started at least an audio recording, but they seemed so friendly at first and it all went from that to abuse so fast.

    No need to respond until after the campaign is over (if then). But Grant, Apollo, Sarah and others all suggested I should let you know about this.

    Joe

  35. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I haven’t heard back from the judge after I forwarded him our responses, but I remembered yesterday that he’s out of town. I know that because he had sent his article for this week last week, saying he’d be out of town so he was sending the article early.

  36. paulie

    I haven’t heard back from the judge after I forwarded him our responses, but I remembered yesterday that he’s out of town. I know that because he had sent his article for this week last week, saying he’d be out of town so he was sending the article early.

    Well, they’ll be here when he gets back :-)

  37. Andy

    It will be interesting to see the response from Judge Gray.

    Most of the people whom I run into who are libertarians, or are open to libertarians, have a less favorable opinion of the police than what James Gray expressed in that article.

  38. Pingback: Judge Gray Responds to IPR’s Opposing Viewpoints on Policemen As Noble Servants | Independent Political Report

  39. Pingback: Judge Napolitano vs. Judge Gray on Theodore Roosevelt | Independent Political Report

  40. paulie

    So, in some of the other threads we are talking about getting other response columns from Judge Gray or possibly getting into some debates with other libertarians who hold different views with him on issues such as admiring the police and certain past US presidents. I’m wondering if he’ll have some interest in that?

  41. Andy

    Here’s a song that was performed at Porcfest in 2011 that has got a different view of the “noble servants” that Judge Gray thinks that we should all respect, admire, and thank:

  42. Andy

    “paulie November 28, 2013 at 11:58 am
    It’s got a beat and you can dance to it.”

    That song was performed at Porcfest in 2011. I’ve been wanting to go to Porcfest for years, but every time they happen I’ve either been too busy, and/or I’ve been far away, and/or something else came up. It looks like a good time.

  43. Andy

    “paulie November 28, 2013 at 12:14 pm
    I’ve had the same issue myself. I think the next one is at the same time as the LP National Convention.”

    I thought that Porfest was in July and the LP National Convention was in May.

    It would be f’ing stupid for the Libertarian Party to hold its National Convention during the same time as Porcfest, unless of course the LP National Convention was held at Porfest, which would be really cool.

  44. paulie

    Apparently they are both memorial day weekend next year according to a discussion I saw. The convention was scheduled long before anyone knew when Porcfest would be and as far as I know no one looked into that when looking at dates. Porcfest organizers are not interested in considering rescheduling. The LNC is not either, since it would be really hard to get a good deal with a hotel this late in the game.

  45. Andy

    “paulie November 28, 2013 at 12:21 pm
    Apparently they are both memorial day weekend next year according to a discussion I saw. The convention was scheduled long before anyone knew when Porcfest would be and as far as I know no one looked into that when looking at dates. Porcfest organizers are not interested in considering rescheduling. The LNC is not either, since it would be really hard to get a good deal with a hotel this late in the game.”

    If this is true, this is really stupid. Major libertarian events that lots of people are going to travel to should avoid being held on the same day. This is like when the Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania Convention had its convention the same day as a big Ron Paul rally in Philadelphia. Most of the “cool people” were at the Ron Paul rally, and that turned out to be the LP of PA Convention that resulted in Tom Stevens becoming the State Chair. This disaster could have been avoided for the LP of PA if they had simply had their convention a different weekend.

  46. paulie

    Yeah, but if you have ever scheduled events, especially way in advance, it’s hard to take all factors into account especially when they are not yet known. The LP convention was scheduled last term (that is a couple of years ago) and we already have the 2016 convention scheduled as well. Breaking these contracts on our part by rescheduling after they are made also carries a huge penalty. Some people on the LNC wanted to schedule 2018 now, but we did not go ahead with that. As for Porcfest organizers, I don’t think they consider the LP convention to be a major libertarian event.

  47. Andy

    “paulie November 28, 2013 at 12:52 pm
    Yeah, but if you have ever scheduled events, especially way in advance, it’s hard to take all factors into account especially when they are not yet known. The LP convention was scheduled last term (that is a couple of years ago) and we already have the 2016 convention scheduled as well. Breaking these contracts on our part by rescheduling after they are made also carries a huge penalty. Some people on the LNC wanted to schedule 2018 now, but we did not go ahead with that. As for Porcfest organizers, I don’t think they consider the LP convention to be a major libertarian event.”

    Well this is pretty foolish. Everyone knows that there is a lot of cross participation between people who attend Libertarian Party conventions and people who attend Porcfest. I know quite a few LP members who’ve been to Porcfest. Events like this should be working together rather than creating situations where people who’d like to attend both events have to chose one over the other.

    I think that it would be really cool to have a Libertarian Party National Convention at Porcfest. Somebody should float this idea at an LNC meeting. I think that it would bring more publicity, and more people, to both events.

Leave a Reply