Email Exchange Between CCTUC Chairman Cody Quirk And Don Grundmann

Cody Quirk is the national chairman of the Clarion Call to Unite Committee (CCTUC) and is an officer in the Inedpendent American Party (IAP) of Nevada. Don Grundmann is the founder and former chairman of the Constitution Party of California.

Here it is. These emails have already been forwarded to the authorities, so I’m making them public.

– Cody

—– Forwarded Message —–
From: Cody Quirk
To: Bill Lussenheide, Frank Fluckiger and others
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:16 PM
Subject: Who really is Don Grundmann?
To the members & leaders of the CP that have been addressed already-

This man (Don Grundmann) that is making these wild accusations about me and others that he has a personal, and very psychotic vendetta against, is one that you should be aware of and made known about his reputation and serious liability that he poses to the CP.

First off, Mr. Grundmann was removed as the State Chairman of the California CP many months ago-

http://www.constitutionparty.com/Portals/0/SiteImages/Newsletter%20PDF/Newsletter%20January%20Volume%202%20Issue%202.pdf

-yet since then, has continuously lied about his position, as well as take his criticism and bashing of others that didn’t agree 100% with him to a extreme level that had posed a serious liability to the CP, with the language and rhetoric that he has repeatedly used on Independent Political Report, some examples of the nature of his unhinged viciousness can be viewed here-

http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2013/03/libertarian-party-vs-constitution-party-an-analysis/

(Comments #91 & #92 is where he claims that he is the Chairman of the California CP, Comments #293 & #323 is when he starts attacking people and going off the deep end- while still claiming he’s the Chairman of the California CP)

Because of the nature of these attacks, I contacted Janine Hansen about it and she then contacted Frank Fluckiger, in which Mr. Fluckiger replied in this manner:

From: Frank Fluckiger
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 7:23 AM
To: Janine and others
Subject: RE: Don Grundmann is causing serious problems for our party
Janine:
The most effective thing that both you and Cody could do I feel is to write
a short note to IPR and remind Don that he is not the chairman of the party
in California, but that Nathan Johnson was elected the new chairman at the
March state meeting in Bakersfield… a meeting at which he was in
attendance. He is also registered as a member of the AIP in CA and not a
registered CP voter. I will write him a letter directly and ask that he
refrain from using that title in his emails. For him to imply that he is
the chairman is a diservice to not only him but to the party as well.
I have been award of this problem for some time and that was one of the
reasons he was not re-elected as chairman of the party.
Frank
* * *
And this email was made public in order to put a stop to Grundmann’s divisive rhetoric and bad rap he was giving to the Constitution Party, which can be viewed here-

http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2013/04/constitution-party-national-chairman-confirms-don-grundmann-is-no-longer-chairman-of-california-cp/

-as you can see, Mr. Grundmann is a very unstable and unbalanced character, enough that when arguing about how I outed him on IPR, he had this to say:
—– Forwarded Message —–
From: Don Grundmann
To: cqiap@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: Don

Cody – I saw your reply – going to the authorities!!! – and lost it somehow in my return to my e-mails but it is just as well as it indicates that my e-mail is ” self-flushing ” itself of BS like yours.

You go ahead nitwit and ” call the authorities.” My reference was that I can beat the crap out of you in many different ways above and beyond physical but of course that went wayyyyyyyyy over your head. The ” authorities ” will listen to your whine, say ” thank your Mr. Twerp, er, Quirk, and then think exactly what I know – What a twerp!!

I have realized how logical it is that you are working with Robinson and Hoefling. You are a backstabber and betrayer just like they are. You are a coward just like they are. You are ultra concerned with your oohhhhhhhh sooooooo precious ” image ” just like they are. You are a fake just like they are.

And how are you a fake?? Of course I am not a Mormon but I would say that no REAL Mormon will run interference for and/or give defense to the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement. But YOU will. And that makes you just like Robinson who is a fake Christian and works behind the scenes to promote what he publically proclaims that he is against.

And just like Robinson and Hoefling you know that you could not build a political party but will instead ( in your case ) join the betrayers – the very people which have stabbed the CP more in the back than anyone else. So while Robinson is literally a criminal as he committed the crime of fraud to steal the AIP that doesn’t matter a second to a budding betrayer like you.

I have personally heard Robinson express his contempt for Eileen and Bill. But of course you will brownnose one of the most infamous people in the history of the party with the preposterous idea that he will promote the CP in any way all due to your groveling.

And you will do this as a justification for your idiotic ” Clarion Call ” which claims to be working to unite the parties while starting from the base of rejecting Christian evangelicals – the very people you could appeal to to build the party ( if you actually had the slightest speck of ability to build it instead of destroy it as you are working toward and for ).

And then you top it off by attacking his/their greatest enemy – myself. The primary person out here working to build the CP.

Add all of your cowardice together and it is obvious why Robinson can praise you – Good dog. He knows that he has a fellow/kindred backstabber that he can count on to continue working to destroy the CP. All he has to do is to throw you any occasional bone and, as the stupid dog that you are, you will do all the damage that he and his fellow moles/traitors of Seidenberg, Hoefling, Keyes, AND THEIR CONTROLLERS can’t do.

Well dog you will be answering – sooner or later – for your cowardice, betrayal, spinelessness, and just plain corruption.

Don Grundmann .
—–Original Message—–
From: Don Grundmann
To: cqiap
Sent: Sun, Apr 14, 2013 10:09 pm
Subject: Re: Don

Cody – A) I don’t give a f### how many lawyers you know or contact. B) YOU started the ” pissing contest.” C) I am working around the state to attract people to our party who believe in REAL marriage and NOT pervert marriage. But of course YOU attack those efforts as you rush to the defense of your pervert marriage supporters – rodents who have not the slightest agreement with the Christian moral principles upon which our nation was founded. They will NEVER support the CP UNLESS we drop our opposition to pervert marriage; something which the ” Cody wing ” of party will do. D) So you attack MY efforts to build the party and then threaten me??? I will NEVER for one damn second be afraid of YOU in the slightest possible degree. E) Your ” level headed practicality ” is actually your pathetic wimpiness and weakness. Robinson, Seidenberg, Hoefling and the whole gang – yes, they are a ” gang ” as this is far bigger than a pea brain like you has any comprehension of – have spitting contempt for everything that Bill did. So what does an idiot like you do? You attack me, someone working to build the party in California, and then go into alliance with its attackers; people working to destroy the entire 3rd party conservative movement. And then, as the fool that you, you pat yourself on the back for your ” practicality.”

WHY DO YOU THINK THEY ATTACKED THE PARTY IN THE FIRST PLACE??????

Maybe the ” division ” you speak of is by design – both theirs and ESPECIALLY their controllers you fool. Where do you think that they got the money for their army of lawyers? You have NO concept of what the stakes are in this battle nor who you ( actually not ” you ” because ” you ” are a fraud ) – so make that ” we ” – are up against. We – REAL constitutionalists/conservatives are fighting a force far bigger than a pea brain like you could ever acknowledge. They have ZERO concept of or agreement with ” the good of the country.” To them AND THEIR CONTROLLERS that phrase is a total joke. But you will follow them because they give you exactly what you MOST want – they polish your oooooooh so precious ” image ” as being ” practical.” They give you a dog bone with the total assurance that you will accept it and then do their bidding. And the result? Their dog attacks their greatest enemy!!!! They could not be happier as it is YOU who are deliberately working to divide the party, by negotiating with its greatest enemies, and smear their greatest enemy!! So Cody – Good DOG!! You are doing exactly what your Masters – and the deadliest enemies of the CP – want. The very people who are the cutting edge of the attack against the CP – the cutting edge which is wielded by THEIR CONTROLLERS – have YOU to kiss their butts. And all because you want to build your damn ” image.” Yes, you will ALWAYS be a fool. And that is exactly what they are counting on. They know, as I do, EXACTLY how pathetically weak and cowardly you are.

And then you, still avoiding your own support of the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement, attack me for being single? SO, moron? That is supposed to stop or disqualify me from working to stop children from being attacked? THAT is your great nitwit argument against me?? Yet another example of what a total fool you are. Ditto for living with my mother. If I care for her THAT is supposed to disqualify my work to aid children? Yet another example of what an ultra shallow creep you are.

So keep kissing their butt; something you an expert at. And then turn around and backstab the people who are working to build the party so that the enemies of the party will love you for your ” practical ” brownnosing and groveling. They are gleeful that you are attacking me and giving aid to the outright enemies of the CP. They know that they can play you like a fiddle because you are so prideful and arrogant in your supposed superiority. You will do exactly what they want you to do because you are soooooo concerned with your precious ” image;” i.e.; what is far more important to you than God.

Lastly don’t EVER think that you can intimidate me in any possible way. I will kick your ass no matter which way it needs to be kicked and in any way and at any time that I decide to do it.

It was you who ” started an internet campaign ” to attack me. And then you kept on after that. And then you keep on going. Attacking me while I work throughout the state to build the party. And you expect no consequences??

Don Grundmann – your superior in every possible way
—–Original Message—–
From: Cody Quirk
To: Don Grundmann
Sent: Sun, Apr 14, 2013 8:42 pm
Subject: Re: Don
You know its really really sad that while you’re older then I am, I swear I am reading the written temper tantrums of a 5 year old here; its more then obvious who has the level-headed practicality.

You bleat and bitch about the homosexual agenda and the safety of our children and the unborn, yet at the same time look at you- you still live with your mother, you’re single, and you don’t have any kids -and yet you behave like the state of California is now going to force your own kids to become homosexual or otherwise they’ll be taken away from you, yet 1. -Again, you don’t have kids, 2. -your state is certainly Pro-Gay, but not to that extent. 3. -even if everything you’ve said about abortion and homosexuality are true, is acting like a spoiled brat and telling off anyone that doesn’t agree with you 100% going to help your cause? Will it get you closer to your goal?
NO IT WON’T.
There’s a ton of people in the CP that have had it with you, Don; Janine, Randy- they already think you’re a nutjob and a serious liability to the CP. And so do I.
And yes, I am working with Seidenberg and Robinson, because getting the California CP on the ballot is downright impossible and we need to get the AIP back in the fold, and regardless of what happened in 2008; both of them run the AIP and are still going to hold the reins of it, whether we like it or not- and both to get ballot access back in California, and to restore Bill’s legacy as well, the AIP must be brought back into the fold, period. Even if it means Robinson and Seidenberg are still going to be in charge, yet as long as they’re willing to work with us on the matter of bringing the parties together and staying together, then something can be agreed upon.
I’m also working with Mr. Hoefling too, because this division and splintering among constitutionalists and principled-conservatives needs to come to an end for good- our country is slipping even further into darkness and to continue these pissing contests and working alone is now counterproductive and politically simpleton to do; we have to unite and work together, despite any past animosity and feuding that may have gone on in the past- we need to put that behind us and focus on uniting the parties in order to create a unified party that will be powerful & organized enough to start electing candidates into major office.

But of course, with your lack of practically and perhaps logic, along with other personal attributes which makes me wonder if you have some sort of mental or psychological problems that you seriously should get resolved and straightened out -you do not understand, or even comprehend this at all, like I do.
Maybe you should get a social life, or at least get a prescription for cannabis; perhaps that could help out any kind of issues you’re going through at the moment. Otherwise, just go ahead and do your street preaching and online bashing elsewhere (never mind you’re not going to get anywhere in politics, or life, doing what you’re currently doing), while I’m going to unite a bunch of third parties and indirectly get the political system of this country changed, for the better.

– Cody Quirk

PS- And if you start any internet campaigns or attempt to sabotage my efforts, then I will return the favor and also get in touch with a few lawyers that I know down there in California.

PPS- Ed Noonan left the AIP last year and started his own party, if you didn’t know that.

* * *

In conclusion, Mr. Grundmann is deranged psychopath and possibly dangerous, and I have already forwarded his emails to the proper authorities, as of today.

And on the matter relating to the CCTUC, despite the nature of the last National Committee meeting in Baltimore, the CP was firm in how it felt about the CCTUC, and in having dialogue with the other parties, of which I vehemently disagree with that decision, yet it’s obvious the CP spoke loud and clear on the matter at Baltimore.

And because of that, the divisive response from the national leaders of the CP that followed, and the beginning of Grundmann’s attempted stalking of me, and of many other frustrating issues,I can no longer consider myself as a member, or even a supporter, of the National Constitution Party.

For the time being, I am a State & County Officer of the Independent American Party of Nevada, and that is that.

Sincerely,

Cody Quirk

110 thoughts on “Email Exchange Between CCTUC Chairman Cody Quirk And Don Grundmann

  1. Krzysztof Lesiak Post author

    Goddamnit, I have no idea why there’s no spaces between the stuff.

    This happens to me A LOT with posting articles, and it’s really aggravating me.

  2. paulie

    Go through the code and take out the div tags. Just leave a normal space between paragraphs, no HTML tags needed.

  3. Cody Quirk

    Click in front of the first letter of the sentences and press ‘enter’ once or twice- depending on how many times you may need to hit return in order for it to be normally spaced out.

  4. Cody Quirk

    Anyways, these emails have already been shared with the authorities, and so they should be made public to see just how deranged Mr. Grundmann is.

  5. Nick

    Another John Blare type!

    One issue we have in party politics is that occassionally we get a crazy with a god complex that decides to go on a rampage and it never ends well.

  6. Dave Terry

    Careful Cody, Don MAY have to excommunicate you! He clearly suffers from Papal Syndrome!

  7. paulie

    Finally off the phone. I don’t know whether it’s too late to call you; if you want my help on this it’s 415-690-6352.

  8. Trent Hill

    I don’t really see any threat. At any rate, this seems beneath IPR–it’s just bitching between two non-leaders.

  9. Cody Quirk

    In case people need glasses here-

    From email #2:

    “… I can beat the crap out of you in many different ways above and beyond physical but of course that went wayyyyyyyyy over your head…”

    From email #1:

    “…I will kick your ass no matter which way it needs to be kicked and in any way and at any time that I decide to do it…”

  10. Jill Pyeatt

    Dr. Grundmann is a seriously troubled man. I think he could be dangerous, especially now that he’s being squeezed out of the party. Maybe the best thing to do now is just ignore him. I’ve learned that that’s the best way to handle control freaks. When they realize they can’t get a rise out of you they have to pretend that that was their idea, to continue their illusion of control. So they leave you alone and look for someone 3else to harrass.

  11. Trent Hill

    I fully agree. Don is troubled, to say the least. It’s best to just leave him alone.

  12. Mike McDonald

    It would be best to leave him alone in a padded cell, wearing a straight jacket.

  13. Peter Gemma

    OK then, are all agreed to take the Grundmann Pledge? No matter what his rant or the juicy bait he provides, we will not respond.
    Can I see a show of hands?

    wait, I can’t see a show of hands …

  14. Don Grundmann

    Well here I am, Don ” Roadrunner ” Grundmann, ready to drop yet another well-deserved ” Acme Anvil ” on the head of Cody ” Wily Coyote ” Quirk/Twerp when – shock of shock – I find that he has already, as he always does, dropped the anvil on his own head via his desperation putting out of e-mails which A) divert attention from the real issues ( something which he ALWAYS, just like his hero Jill, does ), such as every issue I wrote of in my open letter, and B) continue his sob story that he is just wittle picked upon Cody who is like Bambi in his total innocence. How pathetic but yet how very Cody.

    Well Cody, I am waiting for the police to show up and when they do I will invite them in to have a seat in front of my computer. Then, with them sitting right there, I will proceed to, simply by typing words, reach through the computer screen, grab you by the neck, and slap the snot out of you – JUST AS I AM DOING RIGHT NOW!! I will, just as I said that I would, beat the crap out of you, even when I am hundreds of miles away. And, as the detectives will note, you will be totally helpless to stop it!!

    Just as with an old TV show known as ” The Outer Limits; ” where the announcer toned – ” WE now control your television. WE control the vertical. WE control the horizontal;” I control Twerps/Wily’s brain, such as it is. I simply expose the most important thing in his existence, his ” image,” as a complete fraud; along with his treachery, backstabbing, and betrayal; and he is reduced to a blubbering mass of goo. I now, just as Robinson and Seidenberg do, can control Twerp in any way that I like and he is helpless to resist. They control him by giving him dog treats in appreciation for being a good pet and loyal dog while I control him by attacking him at the core; i.e.; exposing how corrupted he is; while knowing that his pride and arrogance ( Pride goeth before the fall ) will, unfortunately, stop him from ever recovering. He will think about me constantly every day as his weasel brain plots revenge; all the while leaving ever further behind the solution, which I gave him ( publish the last e-mail Twerp ), to ALL of his problems – look in the mirror.

    For when he looks in the mirror he will see the reason that CCTUC and/or himself could/can NEVER succeed and this due to the character; actually both its total lack and sickness of any remains; of its founder.

    So rather than do the life saving action of seeing the truth he will, as he is currently demonstrating, pull a ” Jill ” – ignore the facts and say that they simply don’t exist; and all to protect his precious ego – his, like hers, dearest possession in his existence and his best friend.

    So yes, I will reach right through the screen and beat the snot out of Cody right in front of the detectives while knowing that they will indeed immediately arrest me – for child abuse.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. disciplining children, and especially those who want to attack them, one snot nose brat at a time. Beep Beep.

  15. Don Grundmann

    Cody @ #18 – Despite your desires and claims I am very much in the leadership of the California CP. I am not being ” squeezed out ” in any way, such as suggested by your fellow Homosexual/Sodomy Movement supporter Jill. And, as usual and always, I will be doing far more for the party and in the war to save our nation than you ever could or shall.

    But of course, as I predicted in my open letter, you can be expected to continue attacking the party in any way possible.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Founder and Ist Chairman of the California Constitution Party

  16. Don Grundmann

    Jill @ #20 – Good news for you!!! The California Assembly is advancing a bill to allow any child in any school to decide, on any day that they wish, that their ” gender expression ” is actually the opposite of what they were born as; i.e.; any time that they wish boys can use the girls bathrooms, lockers, showers, etc. and the reverse.

    So I sure that you are thrilled at the coming success of this additional Social Engineering scheme to warp, destroy, and shatter the moral foundations of the children who are chained to the slave ships/brain annihilation factories known as our public schools.

    Because if they aren’t born homosexual, as you so claim, then they will be crushed to be that way, or at least to minimally support the soul pathology, via good old Social Engineering and their loving attackers like Jill P.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Founder and 1st Chairman of the Constitution Party of California, the last party still fighting to protect the most precious part of any child – their soul

    P.S. – You can save pulling a ” Jill ” out of your witches hat/brew; i.e.; that what I write of doesn’t exist. It has been mentioned on many talk shows, both national and local, and by many commentators throughout the day.

  17. Don Grundmann

    For all of the castrated males, such as Cody, and muscle-brained females, such as Jill, who write at this site, inclusive of those who support the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement or any other pathology, the excellent 5-02 article by Wendy Holland at HenryMakow.com entitled ” Rebel Bishop Affirms Gender Differences ” has the possibility, however slight, of awakening them to what has shattered their soul and warped them to where they now are. It is a soul warping which is at the heart of ALL of the problems currently killing our nation.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. waiting to, as usual, be attacked for offering true healing to those afflicted by, and in allegiance to, The Enemy of God

  18. Concerned Citizen

    We all need to come together to bring back our country. One way is to unite under Newt Gingrich. That way we can both fight political correctness and work to balance the budget. In the words of the great libertarian and Pat Robertson follower John Lennon, “come together, right now, over me.”

  19. Mark Seidenberg

    Cody Quirk,

    As I told you before, last week I visited with officials at the Election Division of the California
    Department of State. They told me that the current chairman of the Constitution Party of
    California was Don Grundmann.

    I noted yesterday that the National CP is giving
    the contact person for the California CP is now
    Nathan Johnson (as of yesterday).

    Secretary of State Debra Bowen recognizes Don
    Grundmann has heading the Constitution Party
    and not Nathan Johnson. I was even asked Tuesday of last week for my opinion on the
    head of the CP by one of the supervisors in the
    Election Division of the status as to who is heading the Political Body know as the Constitution Party, because they knew Don Grundmann is registered American Independent
    Party.

    This posting by Don Grundmann proves my point that he claims he is the current “1st Chairman of the Constituion Party of California.”

    Therefore, could anyone post a copy of the circa
    August, 2010 by-laws of the Constitution Party
    of California.

    Sincerely, Mark Seidenberg
    Vice Chairman. American Independent Party of California

  20. Mark Seidenberg

    I just read an AP story about a high school that has established a “gender-neutral changing room”.

    However, this is not a new idea. My mother was
    raised on the Key Peninsula, Washington State.
    Circa 1897 the anarcist town of Home (Colony),
    Washington had “gender-neutral changing room”
    next to the school. That town had a lots of nudest living there. The school-master of the local school grades 1 through 8 at Home Colony
    acted as a “school-marm” even down to a dress.

    Until my mother moved away from that area
    circa World War I, as a small child she thought
    nothing about how sick some of the people living
    at Home Colony, Washington were. Having small children taught by a man acting out his
    transvestite delusion as a “school-marm” is not
    the type of person that should be teaching small
    children.

    One thing I have not figure out is why Dr. Don
    Grundmann does not give equal treatment to
    males and females. He write about Sodomits
    (male to male sex acts), but he does not write
    about Gomorreans (female to female sex acts).
    Does he not believe in equal treatment of women!?

    Sincerely, Mark Seidenberg

  21. John Macy

    “This posting by Don Grundmann proves my point that he claims he is the current “1st Chairman of the Constituion Party of California.””

    You are full of crap, he never says he is a current anything. He just said “first chairman and founder” That means he was the first person to be the chairman, and was later replaced by a different chairman. Which I’m sure you know, you are just being intentionally dense.

  22. Mark Seidenberg

    John Macy

    On this thread Dr. Don Grundmann states that
    he is the “Founder and Ist Chairman”. On other
    thread he states he is the First Chairman.

    The California Secretary of State posts on here
    website that Dr. Don Grundmann is the Chairman
    of the Constitution Party. Grundmann asseverates here that he is a chairman of the
    California Constitution Party. On other website
    he claims he is chairman of the Constitution
    Party of California. There is nothing on these
    websites that states Dr. Grundmann was the
    former Chairman. He just states that he is the
    First Chairman.

    Sincerely, Mark Seidenberg

  23. Cody Quirk

    John, did you read his posts on the previous IPR thread on the Libertarian Party vs. the Constitution Party? Early in his posts, he plainly says that he is the state chairman of the California CP as recently as last month.

  24. Mike Koch

    Yes, that was before he was corrected on that. Now he is saying he was the first chairman, which is not the same thing as saying he is still the chairman.

    Neil Armstrong continued to be “the first man to walk on the moon” until he died last year; that doesn’t mean he was still walking on the moon the rest of his life. I don’t know if “first man to walk on the moon” was part of his email signature (or if he even had one), but if it has been, it would not have been inaccurate.

  25. Cody Quirk

    Well I was the one that corrected him, and he went apesh*t over me exposing his fraudulent claims that he was still the State Chairman, hence these threats he has made.

  26. Don Grundmann

    Cody – I was hoping that you could not be so stupid. I was REALLY REALLY hoping. BUT…

    The simple fact is that you made a big mountain out of less than an anthill regarding the title of ” Chairman ” as an attempt to smear me when I was nailing your ultra corrupt friends to the wall regarding their support of the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement and all of the monstrous things that it is doing and they support. You could not logically defend them so you did as you do – change the subject in an attempt to divert attention away from the real issue.

    It was a stupid move on your part but yet, inclusive of your post above, shows your continuing pattern of avoiding the issues by throwing up false flags such as ” Chairman ” or my supposed ” threats ” against you.

    Moron – I had no interest in engaging you in anything until you A) rushed to attack me in defense of your horrific and totally rotten friends like Jill P. and B) then made your own threat against me in your e-mail response to my courtesy phone call. And THEN you wrote that you were passing on my e-mail responses to you to others. It was this action which inspired me to write my letter to the party so that your fool CCTUC would be finally and totally exposed and utterly destroyed.

    Now when I respond to your challenge you do as you did with the ” Chairman ” word issue – you yourself go ” ape#### ” ( actually ape stupid ) and make yet a bigger and utter fool of yourself by your beyond nitwit attack regarding my ” threats.”

    Your spreading of the personal e-mails as an attempt to justify your stupidity throughout your CCTUC ” crusade ” really put the Scarlet Letter ” F ” ( for Fool, and a total one at that ) on your head far better than my letter did. I certainly blew the hell out of your CCTUC by exposing the fraud and lies behind it to the party but YOU put ” the cherry on top ” by confirming via your e-mail action both the validity of my letter and ( especially ) your own pathetic and warped character.

    It also illustrates yet another of your endless character flaws in that you blubber, whine, and act like your own 5 year old child reference by claiming ” threats ” against you and claiming to be a ” victim ” while ignoring that you threw the first rock.

    And now you CONTINUE carrying on and on and on and on with your same stupidity in order to justify yourself to, as usual, protect your soooooo precious ” image.”

    It was actually Divine Intervention which allowed you to expose what a fool you are so that I could perform the public service of dynamiting your idiotic CCUTC to oblivion.

    You could grow up and no longer attack myself or the California CP, or even the national CP, but your nonsense post above illustrates that there is no way that such will happen. You will blither and blather on and on and on in your perpetual attempt to polish your image to something which it is not and which you yourself make sure that it NEVER will be. Just as many elderly compare their diseases to be ” one-up ” on their fellow sufferers Cody Quirk will be in a rest home proclaiming, just as you do now, to all that won’t listen that it was a monumental event in the way that I used the word ” Chairman.” I can always count on you to make that big ” F ” on your forehead ever brighter so that all who interact with you will be blinded by the red light which pours from it.

    And as a public service to you I will mention the following that it may, if anything, wake you up – I got a call from a person whom I have never met and have only heard of. This person was on the list of those whom I sent my letter to and he/she was the first person who called me regarding the letter.

    While we discussed many different topics his/her comment regarding yourself – He is very arrogant and very very definitely needs help.

    Take it as you will. You could take it positively and actually, and finally, LOOK IN THE MIRROR can SEE what is right in front of you and, especially, right behind your eyes. You COULD then actually and finally grow up.

    As before ( in the letter which you did not print/pass out ) you need only look into the mirror to see the source of your failure and actually all other troubles. No conspiracy. No secret votes. No anti-Mormon bias. None of the other endless excuses which you will spout.

    No. It all starts and ends with you. To gain such knowledge can be just the bitter pill which you can use to grow and heal but based upon your continual and continuous whining, stamping your feet, and ludicrous nitwit actions to justify your stupidity the chances of such growth are, unfortunately, zero.

    I would be happy to be proven wrong but the possibility of that is virtually zero.

    Meanwhile, until and unless you do grow up, have fun in your playpen/pathology.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. a grown up who wishes that you did not want to stay as a child

  27. Don Grundmann

    Cody @ $45 – It is too bad that you will never recover but, as you show in this comment ( which, as ever before, never addresses the issues ), it will NEVER happen. Your stupid ego will NEVER see anything other than the stupid ” image ” which you must see to imagine the alternative reality which you exist in. Of course you are only one among legions such as your friend Jill P.; having an entirely different fantasy in your head than what you are doing, or especially what you will ever admit that you are doing, in reality.

    Hence it is as it is.

    Don’t say that you were never warned. altered, nor given a chance. You, as with Jill P. and the hoards like you both, had/have the chance to divert from your path but the protection of your god – your image/ego – is the most important thing in your existence and hence determines all that you do. The entire CCTUC scam was really an ” all about Cody ” show. That is, among many other reasons, why it failed but, as with your sickened character, you will never admit that truth. Such is your loss.

    It is by your own choice that you will forever be a retarded child no matter how old you are. No need to, and don’t try to, blame anyone other than you. You are the architect of your own demise. I am simply putting the spotlight on your own foolishness.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. the guy who brought the truth to you but you were too weak to accept it

  28. Mark Seidenberg

    Cody Quirk

    RE; Post 43.

    I had a long 45 min.+ telecom today with Nathan Johnson about Grundmann. He has the
    same concerns that we do.

    Sincerely, Mark Seidenberg

  29. Cody Quirk

    That’s good to know, Mark.

    I’ve decided that I’m going to stick with Jill’s advice about him.

    In fact, I think if all start doing that with this psychotic creature, he’ll start shutting up gradually, or until he ends up in legal hot water for his postings here and elsewhere.

  30. Mark Seidenberg

    Cody Quirk
    Nathan Johnson believes Grundmenn created no By-Law in 2010 for the CP of CA. I therefore,
    will take this as ca fact now.

    Nathan Johnson also informed me that he needs
    to work out what the CP plans to do by 2016 to
    try to get ballot access, since he believes that will
    not take place by 2014.

    I therefore have a concern that Don Grundmann
    might try to get first on a County Central Committee in Alameda County. I therefore,
    plan to have a talk about this with AIP county
    official in Alameda to make sure he gets no
    appointment.

    Bottom line Grundmann will find no home in the
    AIP at any level. He even will be blocked from
    running for a set in a primary election in 2014.
    That is what the trial is about.

    Sincerely, Mark Seidenberg

    .

  31. Cody Quirk

    With the requirements of having to obtain tens of thousands of signatures for a party to gain ballot access in your state. The CP doesn’t stand a chance to get on the ballot in California, especially with how anti-third party the state legislature is there.

    Good for you guys on the second part. I know he would try to run for anything under the AIP and did so last year, in fact.

  32. Mark Seidenberg

    Cody Quirk

    Do you have any idea when, where, and with whom Don Grundmann form the Constitution
    Party at a convention circa August, 2010?

    Nathan Johnson was not aware of any By-Laws
    for the Constitution Party. Some of the 72
    orginial Constitution Party California Electors
    from August, 2010 were from the old Constitution Party of the 1950’s that picked MacArthur for President in 1952 .

  33. Mark Seidenberg

    John Maddox

    Thank you for that information. Now I understand the comment of Chelene Nightingale
    circa February 15, 2011.

    Therefore, the Convention was held on the street
    in front of the Rhino Theatre in the Castro.

    Sincerely, Mark Seidenberg

  34. Mark Seidenberg

    John Maddox

    It was explained to me that post # 51 was ment
    to be joke.

    Mark Seidenberg

  35. Mark Seidenberg

    John Maddox

    So when Chelene Nightingale was using the term
    RHINO and not RINO she ment Republican
    Homophobic In Name Only

    I know that at the 2007 convnention of the American Independent Party in Sacramento
    Don Grundmann requested the convention to
    take an extra long lunch break to picket a Sacramento Theater which were showing “Sodomite Pornographic Movies”.

    He then led the delegates to a movie theatre to join some male freinds of his in front of the theatre

    One of these male friends starts to tell me the
    plot of the Sodomite movie. I asked him how
    he knew the plot of this movie. He then tells
    me he paid money to see it and then reported to the police.
    I still question why any friend of Don Grundmann could sit through a movie showing
    obscenity. The other thing that bothered me he said “in Russia the police would close down such
    a theatre.”

    If the movie had a plot than it could be viewed by some in the community of Sacramento as art and I questioned why Grundmann suggeste we go to that theatre in the first place. So I went to
    have lunch.

  36. Sam Kress

    Did some of them like Grundmann and/or his friends go inside to witness to the sinners inside the theater during the film?

  37. Mark Seidenberg

    Sam Kress

    This was in the time of Lunch. I do not recall if
    the theater was even open. I will ask around to
    see what others remember.

    Remember Don Grundmann was only using the
    term of art “Sodomite” This means “male unnatural intercorse with a male human or
    animal”. “Gomorrbean” is the word that
    means “human female unnatural sexuality with an other female or animal.” The term “Buggery” covers both terms.

    The reason I am aware of these terms I was on a jury in a court case in Beverly Hills, CA many
    years ago. Those terms were explained to the
    jury by the Deputy District Attorney.

    .

  38. Mark Seidenberg

    Sam Kress

    The courthouse in Beverly Hills, CA covered crimes that took place in West Hollywood, CA.
    The above was a male prostitution case.

  39. Jill Pyeatt

    Omigoodness, Mark, attorneys actually allowed you on a jury about male prostitution? Libertarians would have found that be a fine opportunity for jury nullification.

  40. Sam Kress

    Agreed with Jill. That the legal profession still uses such antiquated and historically inaccurate terms is yet more proof such laws should be taken off the books, and nullified in the meantime. And that includes the moronic laws against prostitution.

  41. Mark Seidenberg

    The counts were more than just male prostitution
    he was charged with also Solicitation and spreading AIDS (which had additional penalty).

    To: Sam Kress

    What “inaccurate terms”? in post 62.
    To Jill Pyeatt at post 61.
    The public defender did not ask anyone a question of what they thought about the laws the
    Defendent was charged with.

    I raised the issue because that was how I learn the meaning of the terms.

    Therefore Grundmann express interest relates
    to male to male sex or male to animal sex and women sex acts are not part of his expressed concerns.

  42. Sam Kress

    What “inaccurate terms”?

    The three single words in quotes @59.

    “The public defender did not ask anyone a question of what they thought about the laws the
    Defendent was charged with.”

    They usually don’t. That’s why juries need to be educated about their rights.

    “he was charged with also Solicitation and spreading AIDS”

    Solicitation should not be a crime. Spreading AIDS intentionally, i.e. knowingly and without informing partners of the risk or using precautions, is legitimately a crime, so I can see a case there.

    Otherwise the jury should have nullified.

  43. Mark Seidenberg

    Siam Kress

    I left out one other charge in that case. It was
    Lewd conduct. The acts took place in an automobile on a public street. I recall that charge
    was a violation of CA Penal Code 647.

    The question was did he do those events. We
    all agreed the defendent did those acts charged.

  44. Sam Kress

    The question also should have been which of those laws should be laws at all, and the answer should have been that prostitution/solicitation laws should not be laws at all.

  45. Jill Pyeatt

    Mark Seidenberg. I suggest you look into jury nullification. It’s a wonderful tool we citizens have available to us that is definitely not being used enough.

    Having said that, I can’t imagine a set of attorneys ever allowing me to sit on a jury. I’m not a good enough actress to hide my disdain for many, if not most, of the laws on the books.

  46. Mark Seidenberg

    paulie

    Thank you for the information. These events did
    not happen behind closed doors. They happened in a public place.

    Jill Pyeatt

    Why should you hide information in court?

    I understand how you feel. I have been reject
    three times from jury duty when I am asked the
    same question if I think the current laws on firearms are sufficient.

  47. paulie

    In the case of a mix of legitimate and illegitimate charges, the jury should nullify the illegitimate laws and convict on the legitimate ones if they believe the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

  48. Mark Seidenberg

    Paulie

    All the events took place in public in or near an
    automobile. It was not behind close doors.
    Therefore, in my mind all the acts were crimes.

  49. paulie

    So if eating cucumbers was outlawed and someone ate cucumbers while shoplifting, you would convict the accused of both crimes?

  50. Mark Seidenberg

    Paulie at 72

    Maybe not. Look at this way. If a person was at
    a public place committed a lewd act such as
    oral sex the answer would be yes. I would convict on all counts.

    These are not act between adult done in private.

    a

  51. paulie

    That doesn’t make prostitution or solicitation a legitimate crime, just like shoplifting (a legitimate crime) while eating a cucumber (not a legitimate crime) does not make the act of eating a cucumber legitimately a crime.

  52. Mark Seidenberg

    I now hope some one else will bost the article
    from blogcritics.org The article is entitle
    “Disturbing the piece on receiving oral sex.

    The fool commonwealth attorney charge “Disturbing the Piece” on a event of
    Oral Sex in public in Virgiria. It this case I
    would not convict because of the spelling error.
    If it was” Disturbing the Peace” then I would convict.

  53. Mark Seidenberg

    paulie

    Why do you think your view are more proper that
    the legislature of ‘virginia?

  54. Mark Seidenberg

    paulie

    It was for oral sex. But it was in an automobile on a public street. It was not behind closed doors. The max that could happen in Virginia
    for that crime was 5 years.

  55. paulie

    Well that doesn’t really deserve an answer, but I don’t believe any legislature or anyone else should have any right to stop any action between consenting adults. I think any such so-called laws should be disobeyed, nullified and overturned, and the people who pass and enforce them should be considered to be and treated as criminals. I think they are an affront to humanity, and that’s putting it mildly. You claim (ridiculously) to be a small l libertarian, so you should already know this.

  56. paulie

    It’s absolutely batshit insane that oral sex would be a felony or get anyone any time in prison at all, even if it is on a public street. And the conviction was not dependent on it being on a public street, nor was that what the felony was. So I stand 100% by what I said.

  57. paulie

    It should certainly not be a felony and draw prison time, that’s nuts. And it was cunnilingus, not that it matters.

  58. Mark Seidenberg

    paulie

    If it happened behind closed doors than there would be no conviction. It happened in public.

    The Commonwealth of Virginia has sentence guide lines. This is not early 19th century France
    and this does not take place in the Victor Hugo
    novel LES MISERABLES, where Jean Valjean
    get 19 years for stealing bread.

    The act is a crime. It was done in public.
    The real question is how Don Grundmann would
    react because it is not and act of a “SODOMITE”

    .

  59. paulie

    That it was in public is not what made it a felony. There was nothing at all about the act which should have been a felony.

  60. Mark Seidenberg

    paulie

    Section 18.2-361(A) CRIMES AGAINST NATURE

    “If a person carnally knows in any manner any brute animal, or carnally knows any malr or
    female person by anus or by oe with the mouth
    or voluntarly submits to such carnal knowledge
    he or she shall be guilty of a class 6 felony [with
    exceptions].

    Therefore it is a felony.

  61. Mark Seidenberg

    Paulie

    I have read LAWRENCE v. TEXAS (2003). In the case of the 21 year old Virginia woman raised
    in the above post. It was in public therefore the
    privacy exeption does not apply.

    She took the case to a jury and the jury there
    sets the sentence in the Commnweath of Virginia.

  62. Mark Seidenberg

    Paulie

    There is a case currently going on in Idaho of the
    crime againsts nature. It is a woman have sex with her dog. It was in private, but was recorded
    on a video. Since the dog like a child can not give
    consent, the private issues then goes away.

    There what is your view on laws relating to having sex with an animal, since they can not give consent?

  63. paulie

    People who engage in such activity in pubic should be taken out of society. That is why it should be a felony.

    Insanely disproportionate, even if you think it should be a crime at all.

  64. paulie

    Section blah blah blah….Therefore it is a felony.

    And I am saying that law is illegitimate, just like a law outlawing you practicing your religion would be illegitimate. There is nothing inherently force initiating about people having sex in public. True, many parents don’t want their kids to see it. Not all parents though – when I was a little kid my whole family lived in one small room, so there was no privacy; it’s normal in much of the world and throughout most of history.

    Well, some parents don’t want their kids exposed to other people’s religions. Not as many as object to having their kids see people having sex, but still a lot of parents. So should it be a felony to pray, display religious paraphanelia, talk about religion or prosletize in public?

    She took the case to a jury and the jury there
    sets the sentence in the Commnweath of Virginia.

    Juries are kept ignorant of their power to judge the law as well as the facts.

    There what is your view on laws relating to having sex with an animal, since they can not give consent?

    Animal cruelty laws should apply. The only laws I am talking about being unjust are those involving consenting adults.

    BTW, bodily fluids can count as assault, so if any people having sex in public expose non-willing participants to their semen, spit, etc., that can legitimately be a crime.

    Due to overwhelming public views on this, any kind of sex in public will probably continue to be a crime for some time, but it should most certainly not be a felony – that’s just nuts.

  65. Don Grundmann

    I was not planning on any further commentary on this thread but since it was started by Cody, most immediately as a colossally idiotic and utterly stupid counterattack to my open and general letter to the CP exposing his work with and support of the greatest betrayers of the party and from first beginnings by his defense of Jill P. and others who were/are promoting the evil of the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement, I feel that the noted article – ” Gay Adoption results in Chaos and Suffering,” on 5-09, written by Jack S, and found at henrymakow.com – shows part, and only a small one, of the great tragedy which will engulf countless children of the nation and indeed the world if the monstrous and horrific evil of the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement is not stopped.

    It is this great and monstrous evil which so many people are working to achieve – Cody and KL by their spineless defense of ” marriage equality ” and their evil ” friends ” who support it, the evil friends themselves ( like Jill P. ) who will be cheerleaders that will sacrifice and lead countless children to the annihilation of their soul, and, yes, totally evil sociopaths like Mark Robinson and Mark Seidenberg who will A) work to disable any organizations ( such as the original and REAL AIP ) which could rally for the defense of the children, and B) this in service to their SPLC, ADL, and Republican RINO masters who are totally in favor of the soul annihilation of these children.

    Few will care, especially at IPR, but I make this small comment to place on the record that there are those such as myself who will know who ” greased the skids ” ( and did it happily ) so that countless children could be destroyed by their Homosexual/Sodomy Movement attackers and. especially, their controllers.

    The children may not be saved from a horrific fate here on earth but their attackers, and their supporters, will answer, and this eternally, to The Creator for their crime(s) against humanity.

    They will laugh at it now but they will not escape divine justice.

    Don J, Grundmann, D.C. a chronicler of the evil and its supporters/lovers in our time

  66. paulie

    Seidenberg,

    I see no reason to read those articles. It’s not a subject I am interested in, and I have other things to do.

  67. Mark Seidenberg

    paulie

    To post 98. O.K. thank you for informing me you have no interest in the subjects in 95 & 96.
    I will then move on.

    I note that a California legislative Committee
    this week has voted to let the Constitution
    Party be abandon based on its registration
    figures 154 days before the 2014 primary
    election.” Bottom line “1st Chairman” Grundmann will be “thrown out with that
    political body is declared abandoned by Secretary of State Debra Bowen in early January,
    2014. This became an issue when Charles Deemer won his lawsuit against Debra Bowen

    I have no idea what Dr. Grundmann plans to
    run for in 2014 or if he plans to stay registered
    in the American Independent Party.

    The trial of Dr. Grundmann if he is convicted
    will end his ability to use the name of the
    American Independent Part with his name

    .

    .

    ,

  68. Mark Seidenberg

    i note again that Dr. Grundmann at post 97 has
    limited his interests to just “Sodomy Movements”. Therefore, he seens to have no concern of the issues of concern to women, viz.,
    “Gommorrbean Movements” Why is that?

  69. Mark Seidenberg

    I just noted a typo in my post 99. I left off the “y”
    in ‘party’. it should have stated that Dr. Don
    Grundmann will not be allowed to use the name
    of American Independent Party with his name.

  70. Sam Kress

    Mark Seidenberg,

    You make way too many typos to worry about any one in partycular :-)

    Against my better judgment, what particular verses in your bible do you think prove that the inhabitants of Sodom were believed to have a particular proclivity for male homosexuality, or the inhabitants of Gomorrah to have had a particular proclivity for female homosexuality?

    I’ve read your bible a number of times, but rather than reprint the whole thing here, here’s a summary from wikipedia:

    The Book of Genesis (chapters 18-20) tells how God wished to destroy the sinful cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Two angels (literally “messengers”) are invited by Lot to take refuge with his family for the night. The men of Sodom surrounded Lot’s house and demanded that he bring the messengers out, so that they can “know” them. Lot protests that the “messengers” are his guests, and offers them his virgin daughters instead, but the Sodomites threaten to “do worse” with Lot than with his guests; whereupon the angels strike the Sodomites blind, “so that they wearied themselves to find the door.” (Genesis 19:4-11, KJV)

    One can just as easily conclude that the sin of Sodom was rape, pedophilia, etc – I see nothing to indicate that it was male homosexuality per se. Wikipedia goes on to note that the term has little modern usage outside Africa, the Islamic countries and the United States. It goes on to say that Elsewhere, the legal use of the term “sodomy” is restricted to rape cases where anal penetration has taken place….In modern German, the word “Sodomie” has no connotation of anal or oral sex, and refers specifically to bestiality. (See Paragraph 175 StGB, version of June 28, 1935.) The same goes for the Polish “sodomia”..

    I find no biblical or historical support at all for your uses of Gomorrh(y) or buggery; the latter appears to be a British synonym for “sodomy” derived from the alleged sexual practices of a heretical religious sect that originated in Bulgaria.

  71. Mark Seidenberg

    Sam Krass

    At post # 102 you state that Wikipedia is you Bible source. It is not mine. According to the
    Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins (New
    York, Facts On File, Inc. 1997) at page 626,
    it states that “Sodom and Gomorrah, the twin
    Cities on the Plain in the Bible, have long represented male and female vice respectively,
    — a Gomorrbean, in fact, meaning a lesbian…”

    This gets back to my central point, why is Don
    Grundmann only concerned with thev vice of
    ‘sodomy movements’ and not cocerned with
    the vice of the Gomorrbean?

  72. Dave Terry

    Sam Kress @ 102: “One can just as easily conclude that the sin of Sodom was rape, pedophilia, etc – I see nothing to indicate that it was male homosexuality per se.

    THAT is NOT what those scriptures say, at all!

    Clearly the Sodomites (ie. male residents of Sodom) were only interested in “KNOWING”
    the angels (presumably MALE) staying with Lot as guests.

    Equally clearly the offering of his daughters to them was 1. cowardly, 2. misogynistic and 3. indicative that “the sin of rape, pedophilia, etc.” was clearly more to the taste of the Israelites.

    This Israelite attitude of women as simply vessels for the ‘use’ of men is further indicated in Genesis 20:1’1, “Now Abraham moved on … and … for a while he stayed in Gerar, and there Abraham said of his wife Sarah, “She is my sister.” Then Abimelek king of Gerar sent for Sarah and took her.

    Clearly Abrahm didn’t have the balls to defend his wife’s honor and left to YhWh to speak to Abimelek directly.

    After YhWh tells Abimelek that Sara was Abraham’s wife, Abimelek tells YhWh: “Did he not say to me, ‘She is my sister,’ and didn’t she also say, ‘He is my brother’? I have done this with a clear conscience and clean hands.”

    At THIS point YhWh absolves Abimelek of any fault in this misunderstanding. BUT incredibly also absolves Abraham and tells Abimelek not ONLY that Abraham is a “prophet” but that he will “pray for you”.

    Please tell me what KIND of God NEEDS this kind of prophet OR would absolve him of this kind of behavior?

    If ANYTHING the Sodomites should have been spared and Lot, Abraham & Company should have been erased from the pages of history AND any mention is allegedly “SACRED” texts.

  73. Todd Maxwell

    Actually Mark, Sam Kress did not say wikipedia was his source, he said he has read the bible himself more than once, but did not feel like posting the whole text of all those chapters here and just used wikipedia as a handy summary.

    However, if you think Kress or wikipedia left something significant out, please quote directly from the bible to show where it supports your theory of what these terms mean. Where does it say exactly what sins the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were guilty of, that male homosexuality (as opposed to say rape) was the sin of Sodom, much less that female homosexuality was the sin of Gomorrah? Name one verse, please. And include a chapter and verse reference.

    If you are going to quote a secondary reference, please state where that reference can be found online. I doubt anyone will want to run down to the library to chase down an offline reference. And besides, you should be able to prove your case with a primary reference, no secondary reference needed, if you actually have a case, which I don’t think you do.

    Last, where did you get the “b” in “Gomorrbean”? I have never, ever seen that before, nor does it make any logical sense based on the name Gomorrah, so that makes me think you just made that up. Even if you didn’t, go back and show me the chapter and verse in the bible to lead anyone to believe that you are correct. I bet you can’t do it.

  74. Todd Maxwell

    “Clearly the Sodomites (ie. male residents of Sodom) were only interested in “KNOWING”
    the angels (presumably MALE) staying with Lot as guests.”

    Was it consensual sex that the Sodomites wanted? Clearly not, so it is reasonable to conclude that male homosexual rape, not male homsexual sex per se, was the crime of which they were guilty. You are correct that females were allowed to be raped in certain contexts (IE by or with the permission of their male owners, usually but not always their husbands or fathers), but that is besides the original point of whether it is biblically or historically accurate to assume that consenting male homosexual behavior is “sodomy.”

    Also, why are you assuming that the angels were male, or even human, in this story? As far as I know angels to the extent the bible defines them don’t have sex or reproduce, don’t die and therefore don’t need to have offspring, and thus they would be neither male nor female. I don’t immediately recall whether they ate or drank; maybe they were without any sex or excretory organs, or at least without sex organs even if they ate and drank and thus had excretory organs?

    Presumably they are some kind of hominid-like creature, but does that mean they are the same species as homo sapiens? I see no reason to presume that they are, and if they are not, sex with them would be interspecies sex (bestiality), which may have been the sin of sodom. It’s really hard to determine exactly from the story in the bible.

  75. Dave Terry

    TM @ 106: “Was it consensual sex that the Sodomites wanted? Clearly not, so it is reasonable to conclude that male homosexual rape, not male homsexual sex per se, was the crime of which they were guilty.”

    NO, it is pure presumption on YOUR part. First of all the exact acts ‘desired” are not stated, NOR is it specified that resistance was preferred.
    If the angels ‘happened’ to be gay, and were ready, willing and able to participate, there is no indication that those who solicited Lot would suddenly refuse to participate. Further, since Lot did not send out the angels to be raped OR soliticited, there was no crimes committed or individuals to be guilty of them.

    > “Also, why are you assuming that the angels > were male, or even human, in this story?”

    Throughout the entire Bible there are ONLY four angels mentioned by name; ALL MALE names;

    Only ONE mentioned in both OLD & NEW Testiment; 1. Michael, see; Daniel 10:13,21 & 12:1, also Jude 9 and Revelation 12:7

    Only ONE other mentioned in the OLD Testiment; Lucifer (ie Satan) see; Isaiah 14:12, and Ezekiel 28:11-19

    And TWO others mention only in the NEW Testiment; 1. Gabriel; see St.Luke 1:19,26 and
    2. Abaddon; see Revelation 9:11

    Are you seriously contending that at a time and place where women where considered chattel, that God, by any name would send angels who appeared to be women as his “official” emissaries
    OR that they would be listened to or respected?

    > but that is besides the original point of whether it is biblically or historically accurate to assume that consenting male homosexual behavior is “sodomy.”

    Sodomy is an ACT independent of the specific attributes of the “actors”. Whether the object is a penis, dildo or broom handle and the subject is a anus or vagina makes to difference. ANYTHING other than the penetration of a vagina by a penis has traditionally been called “sodomy”, PERIOD!

    One great irony is that in 1778 Thomas Jefferson wrote a law in Virginia which contained a punishment of castration for men who engage in sodomy, however, what was intended by Jefferson as a liberalization of the sodomy laws in Virginia at that time was rejected by the Virginia Legislature, which continued to prescribe death as the maximum penalty for the crime of sodomy in that state.

    >”As far as I know angels to the extent the bible defines them don’t have sex or reproduce, don’t die and therefore don’t need to have offspring, and thus they would be neither male nor female.”

    So you would say that Jesus was neuter? Why is he referred to as the “son” of God? Why was he given a MALE name? WHY, for that matter, do
    people refer to G-d or YhWh as “OUR FATHER,”

    It was easier at the time!

    I don’t immediately recall whether they ate or drank; maybe they were without any sex or excretory organs, or at least without sex organs even if they ate and drank and thus had excretory organs?

  76. Jill Pyeatt

    I don’t think Mr Seidenberg gets a most basic point: WHO CARES what consenting adults do?? It’s not your business, it’s not the LP’s, the US government’s, nor is is it the Constitution Partys (or AIP, or whatever name you call your party).

    Mind your own business!!!

  77. Mark Seidenberg

    I did make a spelling typo.The letter “B’ is just below the letter “H”. The word is “Gomorrhean”.

  78. Mark Seidenberg

    Jill Pryatt at post # 108.

    I do care what adults do. If they comment vices
    it is wrong. However, people have a greater right
    to privacy. Therefore, the state should not look
    what adult pervert do behind closed doors if it i
    concenting.
    However these acts in public is an other story.

    Grundmann concern appears to be just “Sodmite
    Movements” and has no concern about “Gomorrhean Tribo-clitoris”!

  79. Todd Maxwell

    Dave Terry – please remedy your sloppy posting and sloppier thinking.

    I didn’t presume anything.

    I will grant that the people of Sodom who wanted to have sex with the angels may have wanted it regardless of whether the angels were willing or not, but they clearly demanded to have sex with the angels who were not coming out on their own, so it is obvious they were ready, willing and able to commit rape, not just homosexual acts.

    As to whether the angels were male, yes they had male names, but so what? As immortal beings that had no need to reproduce, why do you suppose they had a gender or needed one? Is there any indication anywhere that they had sex or sex partners or even sex organs? I have seen none. Thus it is more likely that they were asexual and gender neutral.

    Apparently or maybe only anecdotally they also had wings, or some other things humans don’t have. Thus it is speculation at best that they are the same species as us.

    I certainly never said that they were women. No idea where you got that from.

    But given that they may have been non-human, and that the people of Sodom wanted to rape them, it is plausible from the story that the sin for which Sodom was judged was bestiality, or rape, etc.

    There are other passages that indicate it may have been a combination of many sins.

    There is nothing to indicate it was male homosexual behavior or proclivities alone.
    Nor is there anything in the biblical story to justify the common usage you allude to ANYTHING other than the penetration of a vagina by a penis has traditionally been called “sodomy”, which again is in no way based on what the story actually says…..and according to references posted above is not the definition in many other languages.

    As for Jesus or God I said nothing about them, so stick to what I did comment about.

    And try to distinguish what you say from what you quote more clearly; it’s hard to talk to you otherwise.

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