What’s Going On with the Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania?

 
This event page was found on Facebook
 

By Steve Scheetz and James Babb

Saturday, February 16, 2013
12:30pm until 5:00pm in EST

Libertarians across the state of Pennsylvania, there are not enough counties represented by their own committees! We would like to rectify this problem, and to help with this, we invite all Libertarians to this event.

The Goal will be to cross pollinate ideas in order to share what works/does not work, establish a sort of mentorship program where successful county organizations can help fledgeling organizations become successful in their goals promoting liberty. Finally, it is my hope that we can find volunteers to take part in leading the statewide committee chairs.

Let’s work together so that we can accomplish a great deal more!

The VF Beef and Ale is a regular haunt for our group, we have WIFI access, and for those who want to attend but can’t, we will have a live stream with interaction so that questions can be asked and comments can be made.

I can be reached at 610-636-8039 though if an immediate response is not required, I would appreciate it if you e-mailed or messaged me.

 

So–then the following comment was posted by Dr. Tom Stevens, Chairman of the LPPA:
 

LPPA Board Members:

This is an extraordinary alert. There have been postings on Facebook about a “Pennsylvania Libertarian Organizational Workshop” being held on February 16th that Steve Scheetz of Montgomery County is promoting. This event is NOT sponsored by the Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania and is, in my opinion, not what it appears to be. I strongly recommend you do not co-sponsor, attend or participate in this event.

Steve Scheetz did not obtain a single petition signature for Gary Johnson or our Statewide Candidates and he was not one of the 84 volunteers who helped defend our petitions against the GOP challenge. In fact, his opinion of Gary Johnson was that “Gary Johnson did not represent Libertarianism. He represented the ideals that maybe if we sacrifice our principles, we can gain more votes…” His chapter was also the home base of the Vote for Nobody campaign where voters were encouraged NOT to vote for Gary Johnson or any other candidate. In addition, that event is being promoted by individ
In addition, that event is being promoted by individuals with more ties to the GOP and Campaign For Liberty than to the Libertarian Party.

Eleven new County Committees and Regional Committees have been organized since I became State Chair and more are in the works. We have support services in place to help each of the new county organizations as well as existing ones. Candidates are stepping forward to run for office, membership is up almost 100% since April and members are joining the national LP from Pennsylvania at double the national rate.

The so-called “Pennsylvania Libertarian Organizational Workshop” will not provide you with information you might expect it to. The Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania is a political party that educates the public and runs candidates for public office. There is no place in this party for anarchists who are unwilling to work within a party structure.

In Liberty,

Dr. Tom Stevens
LPPA State Chair

 
 
 

502 thoughts on “What’s Going On with the Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania?

  1. Erik Viker

    The nutshell: The state chair likes to have meetings and control LPPA online content. Some LPPA members don’t like the chair because he does too much controlling. Some LPPA members don’t trust the chair because he only just recently moved into PA, has a history of organizational contention, and was a candidate with another political party (like Republican Ron Paul but not as well-known). The Montgomery County guys like to protest stuff. The Montgomery County chair wants to be the next state chair, so some LPPA members suspect Workshop = Campaign Rally.

    It’s all very entertaining, and it keeps those who need conflict out of the way of those who are actually promoting Libertarian principles in government.

  2. JamesT

    Having been active on and off in the LPPA for awhile I’ll through in my two cents. MontCo has always been great at promoting events. Including protesting our candidates getting kicked off the ballot in 2010. Tom Stevens (besides being the candidate of the Objectivist party thus the hypocrisy of his attack on Steve) seems to be an ego maniac. He legitimately thinks there is a “conspiracy against him.” The LPPA and LP in general should be a bottom up organization but he is basically trying to run it as a monarchy and attack long time activist who have a great effect outside of JUST running candidates. But the LPPA has been “Bob Barr’ types since I’ve been active outside of MontCo.

  3. Jeremy C. Young

    How did Dr. Tom Stevens become chair of the LPPA? I thought he lived in New York. Regardless, he is an egomaniac and inveterate shit-stirrer who humiliated and torpedoed his own candidate for LP-Pres in 2012. I’m sorry for the LPPA that he’s now in charge, because if past experience is any guide, he will be a cancer on the party, and will be difficult to dislodge.

  4. Tim Doran

    “His chapter was also the home base of the Vote for Nobody campaign where voters were encouraged NOT to vote for Gary Johnson or any other candidate.”

    Is this true about the Mont. County LP?

    If so, despite the personal defects TS may or may not have, I would have to side with him that there are issues with Mont. Co. that need to be addressed. I think truly the only requirement that NEEDS to be placed on LP chapters is that they don’t actively oppose LP candidates on the ballot.

    Anybody aware if this accusation is true?

  5. Mike Kane

    “Doctor Tom” became state chair because there were only 2 candidates if I recall correctly, himself and Erik Viker.

    And the vast majority of the LPPA delegation chose to attend a Ron Paul Rally in downtown Philadelphia on Sunday Morning – rather than attend the business portion of the LPPA convention a few hours away in Wilkes Barre.

  6. Steve P

    The Mont. County LP seems to be the best Libertarian group in the country. Their higher knowledge of libertarianism is impeccable compared to most. Kudos for standing up for what you believe in, although I do feel sorry that your PA party has been hijacked by an outsider named Tom Stevens.

  7. Andy

    “In addition, that event is being promoted by individuals with more ties to the GOP and Campaign For Liberty than to the Libertarian Party.”

    I don’t know about all of the internal stuff going on with this situation, but I see reaching out to Campaign for Liberty people to try to get them to join the Libertarian Party is a good thing. Most of them are already small “l” libertarians, they just are not members of the Libertarian Party.

    “There is no place in this party for anarchists who are unwilling to work within a party structure.”

    Hopefully there is a place for anarchists who are willing to work within a party structure.

  8. James Babb

    Just to clarify, the Montco LP has never been involved in the “Vote for Nobody” Campaign, though some of our members are. Withholding consent and boycotting a corrupt and immoral system is a perfectly valid, principled approach.

    Some of our members did volunteer hundreds of hours of work for the Johnson campaign.

    If it matters, I personally did not support the Johnson candidacy, for the same reasons I didn’t support Bob Barr’s. D’s and R’s insist that party label trumps principles. We don’t.

  9. Tim Doran

    JB – 12

    “Withholding consent and boycotting a corrupt and immoral system is a perfectly valid, principled approach.”
    TD – Boycotting or not participating is different than actively working against the party candidate (ie pushing people not to vote for LP candidate)

    “D’s and R’s insist that party label trumps principles. We don’t”
    TD – on a personal level that is fine. For the leadership of an active affiliate of the LP that is not OK. Labels DO matter when you are an official part of the a political party. You only work to undo the party when you actively work against it. Go advocate as an individual or with another group, but for the LP to survive as an organization that runs candidates, it absolutely cannot allow leadership within the party or any officials to advocate against our candidates. You can withhold support or refuse to endorse, but you CANNOT work against them.

    It defeats the entire purpose of working within a party!!

  10. Richard Winger

    Tom Stevens led the Pennsylvania Libertarian Party to the greatest ballot access victory in the state party’s history. The Pennsylvania Libertarian Party’s 2012 ballot access victory was the first time any statewide minor party or independent candidate for statewide office has ever defeated a challenge backed by one of the two major parties. Also the Objectivist Party of Florida is no longer ballot-qualified. Tom Stevens told me he would not have accepted the Objectivist Party’s nomination if he had known at the time that he would soon be the Pa. LP state chair.

  11. JamesT

    Yeah. I’m a Montco LP member & voted for GJ as my personal way of sending the middle finger. Even though he wasn’t Libertarian enough & I am an AnCap. Also how can someone who was actively the candidate of another party in 2012 complain about someone being not loyal enough to the party? Which is worse? Not voting on principle or being the candidate of a party/philosophy that isn’t libertarian on foreign policy or religious liberty?

  12. Wes Wagner

    PA = Oregon 2.0 ?

    Mr. Stevens … do not fight them. You will not win.

    Negotiate now, early and often and build a solution based on consensus. If you choose to fight a war with them, you have lost already.

  13. Steven Wilson

    I think people need to focus on Jeremy Youngs posting.

    He explained Stevens exactly as he really is and to what extent he can “help” an organization. How someone setting up a workshop to network and brainstorm is a detriment to any group is only known the Stevens.

    Again, reread Jeremy Youngs posting. Or move to another state.

  14. James Babb

    @Tim Doran

    There is only one member of “Party Leadership” that is openly working to undermine the organization. Perhaps you didn’t review the event details. The Montco LP is actively recruiting LP candidates. We have supported numerous candidates at all levels, for many years.

    Luckily, in a big state like Pennsylvania, the state party is of little consequence. The Montco LP is bigger than many state chapters and functions just fine on it’s own.

    It’s just somewhat amusing that this newcomer to the LPPa felt the need to issue his “Extraordinary Alert” to discourage participation in our workshop.

    Ironically, If “Doctor” Tom, wasn’t such an authoritarian sociopath, his re-election would be a given, as no one really wants the job. Several people have stepped up now in the interest of damage control. So I guess we can thank “Dr.” Tom for generating interest.

  15. Andy

    “14 Richard Winger // Jan 28, 2013 at 1:04 pm

    Tom Stevens led the Pennsylvania Libertarian Party to the greatest ballot access victory in the state party’s history. The Pennsylvania Libertarian Party’s 2012 ballot access victory was the first time any statewide minor party or independent candidate for statewide office has ever defeated a challenge backed by one of the two major parties.”

    While it is nice that they won the challenge, it needs to be remembered that if the petition drive had been correctly from the beginning, that the challenge would not have been likely to have happened in the first place.

    Just to recap the many mistakes that were made in the way the drive was conducted:

    1) The drive could have started earlier than it did. Several weeks were wasted at the beginning.

    2) A person whose name I’m not going to mention granted an exclusive monopoly to one mercenary petition contractor, and this individual only hired mercenary petitioners (as in non-Libertarians), and several of them did not have any prior petitioning experience.

    3) There were several other proven, high quality petition circulators, most of whom were actually Libertarians, who had expressed interest in working on the petition drive, yet they were all turned away from the petition drive.

    4) All of the paid signatures were collected out of the Philadelphia area. I looked up the voter registration statistics for the Philadelphia, and they actually are not bad, so this does not excuse the low validity rates on the signatures collected from that area, however, the petition was not just to get the Libertarian Party on the ballot in Philadelphia, it was to get the Libertarian Party on the ballot in the entire state of Pennsylvania. Also, in PA the statewide candidates are at the top of the petition, but in lower spaces on the petition there is space for candidates running for US House and the state legislature, and the signatures to qualify these district candidates have to come from the districts where the candidates are running, and also note that the petition pages are separated by county. I know that a few district candidates outside of the Philadelphia area did make the ballot from volunteer signatures, but it also needs to be pointed out that the district candidates were lucky enough to not get challenged (so they may, or may not have had enough valid signatures to survive a challenge if they had been challenged). Note that the petitioners who got turned away from working were all outside of Philadelphia at the times they got turned away from working (some were in the Harrisburg area, two were in Pittsburgh, one was around the Butler and Erie areas, another one was in Lancaster, another one was in Johnstown, etc…).

    5) Nobody checked the validity rate of the paid petition crew in Philadelphia until several weeks into it, after thousands and thousands of signatures had been collected. A Libertarian Party members in Philadelphia who had a current voter registration disc from the PA Elections Department checked the signatures and found that the validity rate was low, so then the party paid the same crew to get more signatures to make up for the low validity rate. This would not have been necessary if the job had been done correctly the first time, and especially if the proven, high quality petition circulators I mentioned above had not been turned away from working. They were either told that their services were not needed, or that if they wanted to work, they had to work under the mercenary contractor in Philadelphia who wanted to keep a large cut of the pay for an override, so therefore, none of these people ended up working the LP petition in PA.

    6) I actually warned about all of this stuff well before it happened. I sent out warnings to the person on the LNC who was directing the petition drives, as well as the LP National Chairman, as well as other members of the LNC, as well as members of the state party in Pennsylvania, and my warnings were ignored (although I did later have 3 members of the LP of PA tell me that I was right after the fact).

    So yeah, it is nice that the LP of PA survived the challenge, but let’s not kid ourselves by not remembering that they walked right into the situation by not executing the petition drive in the most logical and efficient manner from the beginning.

  16. Andy

    Keep in mind that in Pennsylvania, potential challengers can examine the signatures to decide whether or not they want to do a challenge. If the LP of PA had turned in signatures that were of a higher average validity rate and if their signatures had been more distributed across the state (instead of the majority of them coming out of the Philadelphia area), then it is not likely that the challenge would have happened, and even if it did still happen, the LP of PA would have won more quickly, but the most likely scenario is that there would not have been a challenge.

  17. ATBAFT

    The real challenge in Pa. (and other states as well) is to organize locally. Chester Co. has
    2,000 registered Libertarians of whom maybe
    40 are LPPA or national members, and of those
    40 only 3 0r 4 have expressed interest in attending a county organizing meeting on Jan.31st. Either these numbers go way way up or the LP will never achieve any of its goals.

  18. Ed Reagan

    Andy makes many valid points.

    In-fact if “Doctor” Tom was living in Pennsylvania, instead of Queens, NY during 2012 he could have had his finger on the pulse of the petiton problems and could have adverted an “extraordinary” effort of a long fought 9 week slog to get on the ballot.

    This resulted in the LPPa volunteers being tied up with the ballot challenge, at a time when our efforts would have been more effective campaigning for LP canidates.

    “Doctor” Tom keep droning on about how many new members he has recruited at his his buffet tour of Pennsylvania. (He actually host most of his meeting at all you can eat buffets, talk about a classy first impression.) It is my personal belief that the “Doctor” is creating new county and regional committees to build a firewall of new members to try to keep the state chairmanship in 2013.

    The “Doctor’s” actions have lit a fire under Libertarian activists in Pennsylvania, who are mobilizing the grass roots to remove this cancer from the LPPa.

    While the “Doctor” presides over his top down, authoritarian grass roots AstroTurf campaign. Based on fraud and deception, and the censoring and banning of those who do not walk lock step with this petty tyrant.

    The “Doctor” also is the chair of my county LP, Northampton County. The LPNC is a closed membership, invite only boys club, where you must be invited to join. The LPNC Bylaws read, “Membership: The Executive Committee shall determine who shall be members of the Libertarian Party of Northampton County.”

    So the “Doctor” is hopscotching across Pennsylvania from buffet to buffet signing up new members and blowing his own horn. But is setting up county parties like the LPNC so that new members can not join. I wonder what flavor Kool-Aid he is serving at the “Doctor’s” buffet revival meetings?

    Sunlight is the best disinfectant, and the more we find out about the “Doctor” the clearer it becomes that the Rx for the LPPA is to show the “Doctor” to the door, not just as the state chair, but as a LPPA party member, following in the footsteps of the LP of NY and many other.

    Hey “Doctor” Tom, the definiton of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. If it didn’t work elsewhere it ain’t gonna work here.

  19. NewFederalist

    Wow! I just joined the LPPA. This is certainly discouraging. I haven’t been a member of the LP since 1985 (national, state or local) and finally decided to get re-involved but I sure don’t want to step right in the middle of a bar fight. All this infighting is what drove me out in the first place.

  20. Andy

    “Ed Reagan // Jan 28, 2013 at 4:37 pm

    Andy makes many valid points.

    In-fact if ‘Doctor’ Tom was living in Pennsylvania, instead of Queens, NY during 2012 he could have had his finger on the pulse of the petiton problems and could have adverted an ‘extraordinary’ effort of a long fought 9 week slog to get on the ballot.”

    Yes, but it should also be pointed out that these problems started before Tom Stevens became the State Chairman. I think that he became the State Chairman in late April of 2012. These problems started in February of 2012.

  21. Erik Viker

    “New Federalist,” do not be discouraged. Let those who like the drama revel in it, while you promote Libertarian principles in public policy. The state chair was the person selected by the majority of LPPA members who cared enough to attend the annual business meeting. I was also nominated, as the reluctant candidate who promised to do exactly what the state bylaws required of a chair and nothing else. The delegates in attendance wanted a more active state chair, and he had actively campaigned. The incumbent and Montgomery Co. chair Steve Scheetz have announced their interest for next year, and in April, those who care to attend the next annual meeting will decide who they want chairing the LPPA. If we’re wise, that person will never be very important to the work of promoting Libertarian principles in public policy. That work should be done by individual Libertarians every day.

  22. James Babb

    @NewFederalist

    It’s unfortunate that the chair’s actions would discourage you. Rest assured, that he has very little actual impact on libertarian activities in the state. Anything of value here happens from the bottom up.

    If folks are going to be scared off by the rantings of a petty administrator with no power, how effective can they be against the state?

  23. NewFederalist

    Thanks Messrs. Viker and Rabb. I do not fear any state or national chair or what they may say. I just find it so annoying that libertarians waste so much time debating how many angels can dance on the head of a tax collector rather than showing how freedom works.

  24. Ken V. Krawchuk

    I’m the secretary of the Montco LP, a post I’ve held for 5 years now, a 2-term past chair of the state party, and the Libertarian Party candidate for governor in 2002 and 1998 (http://www.KenK.org), so I think I can credibly speak to this issue. Let me be polite and say that Mr. Stevens is blowing smoke.

    For example, in 2012 ALONE, we Montco Libs achieved the following:
    – SHUT DOWN a suspicionless (i.e., DUI) checkpoint!
    – Organized “Philly Freedom Fest” with Ron Paul (over 4000 people attended!);
    – Staged Jurors’ Rights Outreach rallies at the Montco courthouse (a dozen times!);
    – Organized the “Who Would Jesus Punch in the Face” rally after a Philly cop punched out a harmless woman;
    – Ran the Hospitality Suite at the LPP convention for the 18th consecutive year;
    – Launched our Operation Leprechaun web outreach initiative;
    – Hosted the East Coast Bitcoin Summit;
    – Held a huge holiday party where we gave out the prestigious Monty Awards!
    – Helped free NJ Weedman;
    – Instigated a counter-gun-buyback to a police gun buyback;
    – Jim Babb spoke at Nullify Now (Philly), Restoring Freedoms (Wilkes Barre), Manhattan LP, and the Democracy Unplugged presidential forum;
    – I spoke at the Free State Project’s Liberty Forum (Nashua, NH), Restoring Freedoms (Wilkes Barre), and York 9-12′ers on ballot access reform. I’ll also be speaking at the Liberty Forum again next month.
    – Darren Wolfe spoke at Nullify Now, Fedstock II, and Angel Clark’s radio show, as well as videographer of numerous rallies. In fact, his video coverage of the checkpoint nullification got over 20,000 views!
    – I ran for State Rep in 2012 and am running for Abington Township commissioner this year–as a Libertarian, of course.

    And that was just 2012.

    Don’t forget that in 2009 we saved a little old lady from having her property seized under eminent domain. And WHO can forget our finest hour in 2010 when we made INTERNATIONAL NEWS with our nationwide boycott of the airlines with WeWontFly.com. The TSA backed down on that one, and because of the pressure we brought to bear, they’re now removing their pornographic scanners from the airports. (Video summary of the story at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EksxEFOdBBI.)

    Does that sound like we’re anti-freedom? Anti-Libertarian? Hardly.

    On the other hand, in 2012 STEVENS DELIBERATELY DELETED ALL OF THE PARTY’S WEB RECORDS FOR THE LAST TEN YEARS! Then, to add insult to injury, he renamed the hollowed-out shell of the board e-mail list to be the “Atlas Snubbed Fan Group” in mockery of my new novel, Atlas Snubbed (www.AtlasSnubbed.com).

    I have no idea what this guy is thinking, why he does what he’s doing, or why. All I know is that if he were an agent provocateur, he’d be acting just the way he is. Perhaps it’s that age-old enmity that all Objectivists have for Libertarians? I don’t know. All I know is that all the party records are gone, and he’s using innuendo to malign THE most active and most successful chapter in the entire history of the Pennsylvania Libertarian Party.

    Go figure.

  25. Jay Edgar

    I think Stevens does deserve some credit for what he did during the ballot access fight. However he is the one that seems to be the cause of all this infighting. He tries to exclude anyone who doesn’t agree with him. He tries to run the County organizations from the top instead of encouraging bottom up activism. He disparages many hard working, and very principled libertarians in PA. I sincerely hope that he doesn’t succeed in turning PA into another Oregon.

  26. Steve M

    I am with Richard on this. Congratulations to the LPPA for keeping Gary Johnson and the statewide slate of candidates from being knocked off the November ballot.

    As far as the other trash talk and issues goes. I have respect for those that show respect. So far, the self professed Montco lp hasn’t shown any respect, lots of trash talk, no respect.

    Cut the whining, turn out the votes and replace your state committee chairman if that’s what suits you.

    If you want respect, get the jobs done. For example, if you believe in bottom up organization, then it isn’t just up to the state chairperson to get the required signatures. Its up to every member of the state party.

    You all goofed the signatures and you all get credit for the recovery. Before you go off pointing fingers and passing blame around, how about asking what each of you could do to prevent this problem in the next election cycle?

  27. James Babb

    @Steve M

    “Trash talk” from the Montco LP?

    Perhaps you didn’t realize that this entire thread started when the state chair went out of his way to limit participation in our local workshop. No one asked for his opinion.

    We wish the LPPa well, but the odd behavior of the chair has little bearing on the work of the Montco Libertarians.

    It would behoove the LPPa to find an alternative administrator, but it’s certainly not our responsibility. Regardless, to that end, we are organizing a public chair’s candidate debate, where the incumbent may choose the place, time and moderator. So far, he has refused participation.

    I’ll let others debate the merits of spending $100,000 and 1,000+ volunteer hours to have Gary Johnson on the Pa ballot. But the 50K resulting votes have not freed a single mind or saved a single ass, so my interest is limited.

  28. SteveS

    Tim, before you pass judgement on those suggesting that voting for nobody is an alternative, bear in mind that tom stevens did actively run against Gary Johnson across the United States… He did not do very well, but he absolutely DID run for a party that was NOT the LP

  29. Q2Q

    Tom Stevens is an idiotic control freak. Everything he does is to promote himself at the expense of building a strong political organization for the members. He’s rather have a little club where he can be supreme poo-bah rather than a strong political party with an active membership. Why do you think he was kicked out of NYC? Because he pissed way too many people off because of his ego and his need for control. If he’s not removed, the LPPa will implode.

  30. Steve M

    @34, I doubt it. My guess is this has been going on a lot longer.

    My guess is that your rally is meant to organize for your side. If so go ahead and do it. But don’t expect the other factions of the party to just roll over for you.

    A debate may or may not help you, but you replace the chair by running someone else and winning.

    I am grateful that the LPPA did get Gary Johnson on the ballot apparently without your help. Some of that cash was mine. The volunteer’s time was theirs not yours. If you apposed having Johnson on the PA ballot after he won the national nomination then I definitely am not on your side.

  31. Steve M

    yes trash talk James and you are right in the thick of it.

    James Babb

    “he’s a sociopathic authoritarian.”

    again

    If “Doctor” Tom, wasn’t such an authoritarian sociopath

    Q2q

    “Tom Stevens is an idiotic control freak”

  32. James Babb

    Steve M, anyone with first hand experience will confirm the “authoritarian sociopath” diagnosis. The story is the same in the NYLP, the Ron Paul Revolution, Outright Libertarians and now the LPPa.

    Our work in Montco speaks for itself. We only have so much time to deal with the shiny-badge people.

  33. JamesT

    Yeah Dr Tom is continually berating members of MontCo LP for not being true party loyalists. Which is hilarious as he ran twice in 08 & 12 as the Presidential candidate for the fledgling Objectvist Party. He also refuses to debate potential challengers to his chairmanship. I guess the LPPA needs to change its title to the Monarchist Party of PA. Also anyone who thinks its all trash talk should just read his posts to Facebook.

  34. Q2Q

    Steve M,

    Tom Stevens is an idiotic control freak. I learned first hand when he invited me into the Objectivist Party. The man views himself as some great savior and the only person who knows how to do anything right. He micromanages to the point of idiocy, and he blames others when his ideas/plans fail. Hell, this is the guy who removed an OP party member for celebrating Christmas. This isn’t trash talk, these are the facts.

  35. Erik Viker

    A state party chairgman position should not be important enough or influential enough to warrant a debate between candidates. Read the bylaws and decide which person will most effectively do the things in the bylaws required of a chair.

    Those bylaws also describe the purpose of the political party. The extent to which local affiliate organizations contribute to that purpose defines how successful they are as a local affiliate.

  36. David Colborne

    Hi – I’m the author of the article that Jill posted @32.

    I live in Nevada, and as most of you are probably aware, we’ve had some similar issues here as well. We no longer have formal county affiliates, we still don’t have an ETA on when our state convention is going to be (bear in mind that LP California is already selling tickets to theirs), and so it goes. Much of this is due to conscious and deliberate policy choices enacted by our state Chair and his supporters. How did he gain the power to do all of this? Well, that’s simple – he and his supporters had more people at the state convention than the rest of us and his supporters were better prepared than we were. He and his friends invited family, acquaintances – pretty much anyone they could find – set up a slate of Executive Committee candidates, then made sure that everyone they brought exercised proper voting discipline and voted for the slate. Not surprisingly, when it came time to make some changes, there was little dissension among the reconstituted Executive Committee.

    In other words, Politics 101.

    Which brings me to my point. I agree with Erik – a state party chairman should not be important enough or influential enough to warrant a debate between candidates, but a really, really good or bad one almost certainly will be, either by accident or by design. That’s why, when given a choice between fraternizing with 4,000 libertarians (hey, I enjoy large rallies too – I get the instinct, believe me) and having a nice, pleasant koom-bay-aah moment, versus showing up to the one event per year (or two – in Nevada, we hold ExComm elections every other year; not sure how it is in PA), sometimes you just have to eat your oatmeal, grit your teeth, and make sure that some clown doesn’t start calling themselves “Chair” just so they can make your life needlessly difficult to assuage their ego. No, it’s not fun. Yes, it can seem pointless at times. Yes, “Chair of the LP-Your State Goes Here” should be a meaningless, inconsequential position devoid of drama and content. But, as Mr. Wagner can point out, Sayre’s Law doesn’t just apply to academia.

  37. NewFederalist

    “Freedom does not work.”

    This quote is from poster 29 above. Nobody is going to challenge this statement? With all the Libertarians and libertarians posting here I find this a bit disconcerting. It was directed at me and I chose to ignore the individual but I would have thought someone would have jumped in.

  38. James Babb

    “Freedom does not work.”

    It’s best to ignore trolls, but maybe this belief really is the key problem. It explains why anarchists are criticized for following the non-aggression principle. It explains the censored communication channels. It also explains the current LP preference for libertarian-ish candidates over the more principled ones.

    Steiger’s Law: “People involved in a structure spend more time and energy maintaining that structure than in working toward its goals.”

  39. Erik Viker

    Those who want to cheer a Republican Party candidate with 3,999 other fans are certainly free to do so, but they cannot pretend this helps get Libertarian Party candidate elected. This sort of pro-Republican activity is just as questionable to me as an LP official representing a non-LP party on the ballot. See the purpose statement in the Libertarian Party bylaws. I do not trust those who promote some vague “liberty movement” while supporting Republican Party candidates and staging protests that don’t inspire mainstream voters to trust Libertarian Party candidates with posiitons of responsibility. We’ll always have political parties in government due to human nature- we’re a civilization of joiners. We need an alternative to those Republican goons and their Democrat flunkies. We should promote Libertarian Party candidates for office who will advance Libertarian principles in public policy. After the past few decades, anyone who thinks any Democrat or Republican can be trusted to accomplish this is a fool.

  40. James Babb

    Right Erik, party label is the most important thing. It works for D’s and R’s, so the L’s must follow their lead on the path to greatness. (See my comment above about Steigler’s Law.)

  41. Steve M

    Q2q and you talk trash. It doesn’t help your position.

    Trash talk is not only foolish but counter productive if you are trying to convince others.

    Instead, get yourself organized and elect a new chair and executive committee.

  42. David Colborne

    @47:

    It also explains the current LP preference for libertarian-ish candidates over the more principled ones.

    Speaking as someone who tends to veer “libertarian-ish” in my voting habits, my issue with “pure libertarian” candidates has nothing to do policy. It has to do with execution. If a candidate is a “pure libertarian” but has no budget and no media contacts, how on Earth are they going to present a “pure libertarian” agenda to anyone that doesn’t already believe it? The entire point of having a Libertarian Party in the first place is to use the political process to not only present our agenda to the American public, but to also enact it as public policy. You can’t enact a libertarian (or a Libertarian) public policy if you don’t actually win once in a while.

    Consequently, when someone who’s within a standard deviation or two of a “pure libertarian” policy and actually has a budget and some media savvy steps up and says they want to run for office under the LP banner, I generally say “go for it”. If nothing else, purer libertarians will end up picking up some media and support contacts they wouldn’t otherwise get introduced to, and the less-pure libertarian candidate will find themselves surrounded by purer libertarians that can help him or her better enunciate a libertarian vision. I’ll note, for example, that GJ’s “libertarian-ness” noticeably improved over the course of his campaign as he spent less and less time with his GOP Primary crowd and more time with the LP campaign crowd.

    More importantly, the more sophisticated (if slightly less ideologically pure) candidate will bring in several people into the LP that normally wouldn’t consider it. For example, Libertarian Party voter registration numbers in Nevada are significantly higher than they were pre-2012 (over 2000 new registrations between 2011-2013, which would be a 20%+ improvement).

    As for party line, well, personally, I’d be perfectly fine if the LP found itself “obsolete” one day – my dream is to wake up and find Democrats and Republicans both trying to out-libertarian each other. However, the GOP is a long way from that point – even with Ron Paul’s herculean efforts, I’d say that GOP is maybe 15% “libertarian-leaning” – and the Democrats haven’t started traveling down that road at all. Consequently, instead of trying to move a really large rock (either major party) into adopting a more libertarian platform, I prefer to spend my time and energies on trying to make our really small rock a little bit bigger.

    Your mileage, of course, may vary.

  43. Thomas L. Knapp

    Quoth Stevens:

    “Eleven new County Committees and Regional Committees have been organized since I became State Chair”

    Real ones, or fake ones like the “state affiliates” you “organized” (read: Claimed existed and appointed friends who didn’t live in those states as “chairs” of) for the Boston Tea Party (right before trying to hold a non-bylaws-compliant “one affiliate, one vote” to have yourself nominated for president)?

  44. Ed Reagan

    @Erik
    Q: Which is worse Libertarians going to a Republican Ron Paul rally OR Liberatisans standing up for an LINO that is the founder, current national party chair and 2008 and 2010 presdential canidate for the Objectivist Party?

    Tom Steven should have been run out of the LPPa for running for President aganst the LP’s Gary Johnson.

  45. Erik Viker

    You perpetrate a straw man fallacy, Babb at 49, in which you ignore my actual position and substitute a distorted and misrepresented version of that position because your verison is easier to knock down. See here to learn more: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

    You may disagree that we’ll always have political parties in government due to human nature, and your experiences may lead you to think we’re not a civilization of joiners. My observations have shown me that we are a civilization of joiners, that we will always have party labels, that the Ds and the Rs have consistently turned against liberty, and that as many resources as possible should be directed to a Libertarian political party nurtured locally and nationally to combat 200 years of failures. I know your opinons. Govern yourself accordingly.

  46. Manuel Gomez

    I agree with Ed Reagan on this one. It’s a shame that many in and around the LPPA are allowing Dr. Stevens to debase the organizational and functional integrity of the LPPA and its affiliates.

    Dr. Stevens has recently launched a misinformation campaign targeting the York County Libertarian Party; as he does to any organization/individual that challenges his dictates and questions his actions. Read our response here:

    http://yorklp.org/dr-tom-stevens-lppa-disinfo

  47. Manuel Gomez

    @52 that activity by Dr. Stevens would constitute perpetration of fraud and would be grounds for dismissal from the LPPA. I understand the allegations and they should be explored and fully examined for accuracy with subsequent action undertaken upon validation.

  48. Erik Viker

    Ed @ 53, both are equally bad in my opinion because both fail to promote Libertarian principles in public policy as effectively as possible. I dismiss the so-called Objectivist Party the way I dismiss vanity license plates. And I dismiss any support for Republican Party politicians because I have read their platform and I condemn their schemes as repugnant to individual liberty. I think “the liberty movement” should stop all that random moving and start promoting reputable Libertarian Party candidates who will bring Libertarian principles into public policy at all levels of government. The mass feel-good veneration of one old fringe Republican has done little to reform how government operates.

  49. Steve M

    York has simply eliminated pay-for-play ($15 membership dues) and instituted a sponsorship system for membership. One does not need to be a voting member to be an active member in our committee structure, which was established expressly for this purpose. Much of the York County Libertarian Party’s newly amended Constitution was borrowed directly from the structure of its parent organization, as a matter of fact.

    If you want to vote to spend party funds, or vote for members of our Executive Board, you need to be a member of our Board of Directors. Which means you have been an active member for one year (a single election cycle) and voted in by our membership. We have also adopted the (national) LP’s Statement of Principles as our own, and it remains our only “test” of “purity”. This is the “Party of Principle”, folks. Methinks our Chair doth protest too much.

    So York County has made the Libertarian Party a private club with very restrictive membership requirements.

    To become a member the current membership has to vote you in.

    I am apposed to such restrictive membership policies so again I would side with anyone who wants a more open organization.

  50. Steve M

    When registered libertarian party voters are not allowed to participate in their counties parties because the good old boys have set discriminatory entrance policies….

    Something smells terribly wrong in York.

  51. Steve M

    Think about it…..

    To become a “voting member” the existing voting members have to vote you in. If you are unknown, they won’t vote you in. But if you are related or a friend of a significant member you get voted in.

    This makes it very difficult for anyone other then members of the good old boy club to become a member.

    It is a destructive self defeating policy.

  52. Steve M

    ah think (always dangerous) that the membership requirements should be…

    1) a registered voter affiliated with the party.
    2) dues (and i hate dues and strongly think that they should automatically be waved for anyone who is willing to work them off by activism)
    3) ok pay your dues ahead of time and set your party affiliation ahead of time by some reasonable amount
    4) libertarians have this silly pledge that nobody really knows what it means a non-initiation of force thing…. That i argue, implies you engage in any activity that causes an increase in green house gasses that might melt frozen waters and lead to flooding someone’s land. As an extreme argument. But libertarians want to have people make this pledge so ok.

    beyond these any other demand for political purity is anti-libertarian.

  53. Manuel Gomez

    @58 we’ve very openly, and quite explicitly, instituted a merit based membership system. No more dead weight, no more buying influence in York. You earn your keep through concerted action and consistency, guided by our Statement of Principles, available for all to examine, and borrowed directly from LP national.

    Individuals can operate with full organizational backing and authority via our committee system, which does not require fully sponsored membership, or any membership at all, actually.

    By calling what we have in York a ‘good old boys’ private club you betray your extreme lack of familiarity with our organization and its governing bylaws.

    They’re on our site for anyone to examine as you clearly have; although I’d request that individuals examine the contents of our bylaws and constitution exhaustively and not engage in facile abstractions the way you have above.

  54. Steve M

    York, you are a system based upon existing members deciding on who can be a future member.

    This is an autocratic system. It is so much like the system of nobility in England as to be funny for its claim of being libertarian.

  55. Steve M

    I wonder… York, would you complain if another group tried to organize under the libertarian party banner in the County of York Pennsylvania? if it asked the state libertarian party to acknowledge it as the legitimate libertarian representative of York County? what if it had more members?

  56. Manuel Gomez

    @64 give it a shot. We keep a torrid pace of publicly documented, conspicuous activity; you’d be hard pressed to erect a facsimile of our party anywhere near our circumference.

    The people know and recognize our presence in York. Unlike Tom Stevens, we have a record and a material history to back our status and underscore our credibility.

    You continue to show just how out of touch you are with our institution. Stevens really should invest in a higher quality of trolls and agitators; the petty malcontents that comprise his current crop of lackeys devolve prematurely.

  57. Steve M

    Sir York, your laws speak for itself, louder then your protesting on behalf of doing “good deeds”

    Is it unfair to characterize that in york, to be a voting member you have to have a majority of the voting members vote to admit you?

    How does this differ from a college fraternity? How are such membership limits tolerated as requirements for some fraction of a larger political party?

  58. Steve M

    Manual and I thought you were a better class of trash talker…

    “the petty malcontents that comprise his current crop of lackeys devolve prematurely.”

  59. Steve M

    @68 was that a threat of some kind?

    You know who I am?

    I can’t imagine anyone who asks doesn’t. Let me help you.

    I am Stephen Meier of Fremont California.

    I hope that cleared up your confusion.

    You still haven’t answered up to the question of does the York County Libertarian Party require that to be a voting member you have to have a majority of the voting members vote to admit you?

    How does this differ from a college fraternity? How are such membership limits tolerated as requirements for some fraction of a larger political party?

  60. Manuel Gomez

    ha! Confusion? I’m done with you, troll. You can’t back your threats to supplant what we have in York.

    You really think you can post suggestive comments in our direction without us engaging in requisite preparations?

    One thing you should know about York: we fight coercion and antagonism from within ‘our ranks’ just as vigorously as we fight it when it emanates from the state.

    You don’t meet the requirements to saddle up next to us.

    I’ve entertained you long enough. Txt the LPPA’s outgoing chair, Tom Stevens, and give him our regards.

    York signing out.

  61. Be Rational

    “… does the York County Libertarian Party require that to be a voting member you have to have a majority of the voting members vote to admit you?

    How does this differ from a college fraternity? How are such membership limits tolerated as requirements for some fraction of a larger political party?”

    The answer to this question would be quite revealing.

    The LP at all levels should be recruiting members, donors, candidates, activists, registered Libertarians, supporters and interested onlookers. We should be open to all.

    For voting party membership, signing the pledge and paying your minimal dues should be the maximum requirement. Alternatively, being registered to vote as a Libertarian may suffice for some LP groups to become a voting party member.

    The following quote, coupled with the sponsored admission limiations sounds like a coercive paranoid cult:

    “One thing you should know about York: we fight coercion and antagonism from within ‘our ranks’ just as vigorously as we fight it when it emanates from the state.”

    OTOH: Being an LP State chair or holding any LP party office while running as a candidate of another party should be disallowed as a conflict of interest. Dr. Stevens should have resigned either his Chairmanship or from his POTUS campaign as a matter of personal ingegrity, even if not required.

  62. Steve M

    From the York County Libertarian Party Bylaws.

    Its the board of directors who determines who is or isn’t a member. And the chair can suspend a membership at its whim.

    ARTICLE I: MEMBERSHIP
    Section 1 — Establishing a Membership
    An applicant shall become a member of the YCLP by fulfilling all of the following
    qualifications:
    1. Sponsorship of applicant by a member of the Board of Directors, submitted at a
    regular business meeting.
    2. Completion, by applicant, of a probationary period of one year.
    3. After completion of probationary period, passing a majority vote of the Board of
    Directors to induct the new member. If the applicant does not pass this vote it
    may be taken again after a period of six months, as needed.
    4. Explicit agreement with the following statement, by signature filed with the
    Secretary: “I hereby certify that I do not believe in or advocate the initiation of
    force or fraud as a means of achieving political or social goals.”
    5. Submission of contact information to the Secretary.
    6. Applicant must be a registered voter who has registered their party affiliation as
    “Libertarian Party.”
    Section 2 — Standards of Membership
    A member of the YCLP is expected to uphold and affirm our Statement of Principles
    through education, political action, and social activities.
    Section 3 — Good Standing
    A member in “good standing” is one who has attended the last two consecutive monthly
    business meetings of the YCLP.
    Section 4 — Suspension of Membership
    The Chairperson has the power to temporarily suspend any membership until the next
    business meeting, where the Board of Directors shall arbitrate upon the suspension as
    the first item of business at that meeting. The Board of Directors can likewise initiate a
    suspension vote by bringing forward a motion at any regular business meeting, to be
    arbitrated immediately. A period of suspension can then be decided upon and assigned
    by the Board of Directors with a two-thirds majority vote of those present at the meeting.
    If a member is suspended all privileges of membership are likewise suspended,
    including but not limited to powers or funds made available to said member. Suspended

  63. Lefty Danger Pistolero

    Forget something, troll? Our Chair is under the same scrutiny.

    Section 5 — Dismissal of Officers

    Dismissal of an officer of the Executive Board for negligence, gross dereliction of duty, or for violations of the YCLP’s Constitution, Statement of Principles, or Bylaws, may be petitioned for by a majority of the total membership and submitted at a regular business meeting. The dismissal must pass by a two-thirds majority vote of the Board of Directors at the next subsequent meeting. Any vacancy created must be filled immediately as outlined in the Constitution.

  64. Steve M

    The board picks the membership and then the membership picks the board. There is no doubt that York Libertarian Party is nothing more than an exclusive private club.

  65. Manuel Gomez

    @72 I find your statement humorous. How is it that a band of trolls with obfuscated identities and no discernible track record or history of productive endeavors can equate the York LP with a cult? That’s quite a heavy bout of projection.

    Anyone with legitimate questions or concerns can download/view our organization’s documents online.

    The abstractions being raised and presented as inquisitive are merely aspersions that have been addressed numerous times, both in our post at http://yorklp.org/dr-tom-stevens-lppa-disinfo and in this comment section.

    Should anyone have any lingering doubts, you can examine the bylaws and accompanying set of documents.

  66. Lefty Danger Pistolero

    Additionally, from the Constitution:

    Article IV: Membership

    “Any individual endorsing the principles of the YCLP may become and remain a member subject to the provisions of the Bylaws.”

    Ergo, refusing membership to someone can be considered a breach of our Constitution. The only caveat emptor being that they must “endorse our principles”, which is the same Statement of Principles as the national LP.

    The vote to induct a new member is based upon the inductee’s level of involvement. We’re not trying to run a liberty-minded supper club here, but a political PARTY. The stated purpose of the YCLP is also called out in the Constitution thusly:

    Article II: Purpose

    “The purpose of the YCLP is to uphold and affirm our Statement of Principles through education, political action, and social activities.”

    None of those say “supper club”.

    You’re looking at the term “Membership” through a lens of ignorance. Simply: it doesn’t mean what you think it means. Members are those trusted with the guidance of our party. These people are already Libertarians, and getting one more member means very little where getting them involved means so much more. Without being a member a person can Chair a Regional Committee the size of a House Rep district, organize people in their area and affect real change. Membership ONLY effects one’s ability to sit on the Board of Directors.

    “Section 3 — Board of Directors

    The Board of Directors shall be responsible for the control and management of all the properties and funds of the YCLP consistent with this Constitution and its Bylaws. Only members of the Board of Directors may vote on YCLP business. No member of the Board of Directors shall at any time cast more than one vote. Voting by proxy is not allowable for any reason. The members of the Board of Directors of the YCLP shall be:

    1. Officers of the Executive Board.

    2. Chairpersons of standing and regional committees, as described in the Bylaws.

    3. Persons among the general membership in good standing, as described in the Bylaws.”

    If you’re clever you can already plainly see I said you don’t have to be a member to Chair a Committee, but Committee Chairs sit on our Board of Directors. Ergo, they get a vote because they have taken a mantle of responsibility.

    A membership in the YCLP does not “grow” the party, it grows the Board of Directors. The only time “growth” is mentioned in the specific verbiage is right here:

    Bylaws; Article V: Committees
    “Section 2 — Regional Committee

    The purpose of the Regional Committee is to focus on growing the YCLP locally through education, political action, and social activity.”

    Your argument is baseless.

  67. Lefty Danger Pistolero

    Your assertion at #64 plainly says:

    “Steve M // Jan 30, 2013 at 12:28 am

    I wonder… York, would you complain if another group tried to organize under the libertarian party banner in the County of York Pennsylvania? if it asked the state libertarian party to acknowledge it as the legitimate libertarian representative of York County? what if it had more members?”

    You’re totally right, we should have implemented a system where you throw down $15, damn the poor who do a lot of our heavy lifting, damn principles, damn actual merit — what we need to do is make it easy for people who want to come in and dismantle our party from the inside!

    I think you have made your intentions abundantly clear. Now begone, troll.

  68. Steve M

    Manual and your alter Ego Lefty do no more more then toss out insults?

    Your bylaws are clearly in place to protect the status quo of the York County Libertarian Party Board.

    Dr Steve’s alleged the York Party doesn’t want to grow the Libertarian party. Too me the evidence is pretty clear the he is correct.

    I have to admit, that now I am really curious about the Montgomery County Libertarian Party bylaws.

  69. Steve M

    http://www.lppa.org/smf/index.php?topic=33344.0;wap2

    If these are the bylaws of the Libertarian Party of Northampton County then they are as bad as the ones from York county.

    Section 1. Membership: The Executive Committee shall determine who shall be members of the Libertarian Party of Northampton County. No dues may be collected from current or prospective members of the LPNC. The individuals identified as the Founders of the Libertarian Party of Northampton County shall be permanent members of the LPNC and no amendment to these bylaws can change that status. The Executive Committee shall have the power to terminate the membership of any LPNC member without cause.

  70. Lefty Danger Pistolero

    Reply to #79
    Your arguments have been refuted with a preponderance of evidence. Anyone can become a member of the YCLP and it is against our Constitution to disallow them membership should they show themselves to be principled and active. We no longer charge $15; here in York we ask for a different kind of currency: action.

    Since you have no argument which I have not already refuted, calling you a troll is a statement of fact. Please do continue trolling, as Mr. Viker requires amusement.

  71. Steve M

    Lefty,

    Under the bylaws does membership depend sponsorship of an existing member?

    Under the bylaws does membership depend upon a vote of the board?

    Under the bylaws does membership depend can the board for any reason suspend the membership of an individual?

  72. Mike Kane

    Is this the most productive use of either of your time?

    How about a phone call to a new potential member?

    I’m going to make a few right now

  73. Steve M

    The plain fact is these rules can be used to block new members that the board finds “unacceptable” Thus the board decides who the members are.

    Now are these membership votes taken in public or private?

    This board power is disturbing in that why would a voter want to support a candidate of an organization that claims to be pro individual rights but is in fact very restrictive in its written methods?

    If you currency was “action” then it would have an established value. For example volunteer to participate in so many hours of party activities. Then any one would know what they had to do and could go out and do it.

    But that is not the case, the case is that you have nebulous membership requirements of which each individual is judged by the board.

    Absolutely no doubt about it, if you don’t want to appear to be an exclusive old boys club then set clear membership rules that the board can’t overwrite.

  74. Lefty Danger Pistolero

    Yes, and any member can sponsor you at ANY meeting. Three sponsorships took place at our last regular business meeting.

    Yes, which is far LESS than the LPPa, which requires you to have 12 active dues-paying members for a vote (at $15 a pop) AND a vote to be recognized by the board. I have already stated what is required of sponsored members during their probationary period: adherence to our statement of principles and activity. I have also fully explained what membership actually is, and not being a member does not preclude you from holding committee position in the party nor from being involved in any of our activities.

    No, the suspension must first be arbitrated, which means there needs to be a valid reason as determined by the board. The LPPa likewise has membership suspension policies.

    Making me repeat myself does not help your argument.

  75. Manuel Gomez

    The rules are clearly depicted.

    Why does someone who is purportedly in California care about what is in the bylaws of the York County Libertarian Party, anyway?

    Why do you put up such a zealous defense of Dr. Stevens’ questionable activity, while you’re in California, supposedly? You clearly have a vested interest in our locale and affairs, but who knows, trolls are known to exhibit bizarre, perplexing behavior.

    Mike is right. This is detracting from actual productive activity. Our rules are clear and we’ve addressed your trolling far too much as is.

  76. Lefty Danger Pistolero

    “The plain fact is these rules can be used to block new members that the board finds “unacceptable” Thus the board decides who the members are.”

    Absolutely the board decides. We have no shortage of rival political organizations and even some people who would claim to be Libertarian while publicly calling for coercive action.

    “This board power is disturbing in that why would a voter want to support a candidate of an organization that claims to be pro individual rights but is in fact very restrictive in its written methods?”

    We make no apology for ensuring the continuation of our organization and its future growth. Our Bylaws preclude people who are not Libertarian from joining. If you find this a difficult hurdle perhaps you are not a Libertarian.

    “If you currency was “action” then it would have an established value. For example volunteer to participate in so many hours of party activities. Then any one would know what they had to do and could go out and do it.”

    Defining this and keeping track of this is logistically impossible. With our new committee structure there are countless ways for people to find their niche and help the party. This is such a farcical notion I don’t even know where to begin.

    One Internet troll’s interpretation of our organization, having never attended a meeting or knowing any of the members actually involved, means nothing. I have explained to you what these things mean in good faith and have received nothing in return but accusation and condescension. If you wish to come down from your ivory armchair-throne wherein you know all of what is right and good for the Libertarian Party and lead us to victory and freedom, by all means — do so. Until you show us the way, oh Great One, please keep your nose out of county business that does not concern you, and your mouth shut while York County leads the way forward.

  77. Be Rational

    “… what we need to do is make it easy for people who want to come in and dismantle our party from the inside!

    I think you have made your intentions abundantly clear.”

    Fear of outsiders …
    Paranoid delusions about the intentions of unknown others …
    Exclusive membership …
    Permanent membership for the founders …
    Ability to remove all others …

    These county organizations are not political parties.

    Sad to say, the two county groups now exposed above appear to be textbook examples of cults.

  78. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Wow. I found this info from Pennsylvania over the weekend along with the info about Florida, and decided to post them as articles. At the risk of getting a reputation as a trouble-maker, my hope is to get these disputes out in the open so that they can be talked through. Or, if that doesn’t work, maybe the parties involved will be embarrassed enough to do something about it. I REALLY want the Libertarian Party to succeed, and, if not ths year, then when??? This is our chance, folks, and it’s not gonna happen if individuals don’t put their egos aside to work together.

  79. Manuel Gomez

    Jill, thanks for your post and for allowing such open, frank discussion.

    I’m a firm believer that these matters (of public concern) should be handled as openly and conspicuously as possible.

    This thread has promoted discovery and (some) fruitful dissemination of information.

    As for those with the obfuscated identities posting seemingly never-ending, recalcitrant abstractions, well – that’s what’s wrong with the LPPA; that seems to be the prevailing way within its ranks.

  80. NewFederalist

    Lefty @95… why not? I don’t either and after looking you up on the website I am just curious. If (and/or when) I say my actual name nobody will know who I am so NewFederalist works as well. I am interested in your reasoning. Thanks!

  81. David Colborne

    Wow… That escalated quickly.

    I’m not going to lie – like most Libertarians, I prefer transparent, rules-based governing structures. Allowing a board, even one of my peers, to subjectively determine whether I or anyone else is suitably “active” to participate in an LP organization definitely rubs me the wrong way. On the other hand, I do like the fact that York, at least, meaningfully separates those who wish to “run the Chapter” and care about such things from those that just want to show up, help with campaigns, and basically avoid intra-party nonsense. If only more chapters ran like that.

  82. George Phillies

    The most important issue here is that Pennsylvania has nomination by petition. As a result, if your local county group excommunicates you, you can proceed by ignoring them, and forming an organization of grownups that actually does politics. Whether or not you use the exact word “Libertarian” in your group’s name is not of great consequence, in that the press will get it right and say that your candidates are Libertarians.

  83. Manuel Gomez

    @98 and all this time I’ve been avoiding the use of the term intra-party … but your comment is spot on in that regard.

    Much of our intent is driven by the division of labor and compartmentalization that is inherent within our new system.

    We studied the application of our newly amended bylaws judiciously before implementation; and concluded it would best serve our current direction and organizational work flow.

    As the saying goes, time tells no lies, and history will judge us. I’m confident we’ve set ourselves in the right direction; and I’m excited we’re in a better position to grow our ranks and fulfill our mission.

  84. James Babb

    RE: Libertarian Party of Northampton County Bylaws

    “The individuals identified as the Founders of the Libertarian Party of Northampton County shall be permanent members of the LPNC and no amendment to these bylaws can change that status. The Executive Committee shall have the power to terminate the membership of any LPNC member without cause.”

    Would anyone here disagree the the author of this bylaw is paranoid and pathetic?

    Guess who takes credit for personally recruiting and forming this new committee on 9/21/2011, and has been it’s only chairman?
    http://www.lppa.org/smf/index.php?action=printpage;topic=33344.0

    Although Northampton County is in my region, I am not aware of them advertising a single event or candidate. Neither their board rep or chair appear to live in Northampton County. Was the committee formed for the singular purpose of generating an executive board seat?

  85. Mark Axinn

    I’m joining this discussion a little late in the game, so I will just touch on a few points.

    1. Tom Stevens ran for President as the candidate of the Objectivist Party in 2008 and 2012. I believe he was on the ballot in Florida and Colorado both years.

    2. Like me, Tom has a Juris Doctor degree (in fact I believe we earned them the same year, 1981, but I may be wrong on his graduation date). I have known many, many lawyers in my lifetime, but he is the only one I know who uses the title Dr. without also having a Ph.D or M.D.

    3. In addition to being Chair of LPPA, Tom is also Membership Director of the LP of Queens (NY) County. He is not currently a member of LPNY.

    4. The Manhattan LP and the liberty movement have many friends, but one of the truly best of the best is Jim Babb who has spoken more than once in Manhattan. He is to be particularly admired for all of his great work educating the sheeple of the evils of the TSA.

  86. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    MA @ 103: Re: Jim Babb: “He is to be particularly admired for all of his great work educating the sheeple of the evils of the TSA.”

    I agree. I know about Mr. Babb’s activism way out here in California.

  87. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    105 & 106: Oh. My.Goodness.

    Dr. Stevens, if you’re reading this, is there any way you can explain some of the above behaviors?

    And, you ran for President against Gary Johnson this last dampaign season? Huh?

  88. Manuel Gomez

    Perhaps now folks will understand why Dr. Tom Stevens openly discourages any unmoderated discussion concerning his behaviors past and present; and why he and his lackeys discourage open discovery generally.

  89. ITK

    Stevens seems to have a history of violent expressions towards women and foes
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ManhattanLibertarians/message/20855

    “Andrea’s summary conclusions, illogical application of rules she never
    adopted and banning of Nic and my posts during her Nazi reign over this list
    triggered these recent attacks on her, and BOY do I feel better!

    If she were a member of the Rutgers Women’s Basketball Team, she’d be
    nothing more than a nappy-haired ho!

    And I also must admit I was wrong to criticize anyone who would sexually
    harass this bitch. The greater the harassment of her, the better, I say.

    Too bad you can’t censor me now. But you would love to, wouldn’t you?

    The list deteriorated under Andrea’s reign and she revealed herself to be a
    vindictive little hussy.”

    TRS

  90. Manuel Gomez

    Wow. I can’t say I’m surprised that Dr. Tom Stevens would post comments where he revels in thoughts of rape and murder, and then blames the subject for the harassment, but I’m still shocked.

    @108 I’m afraid there’s no rationalization or explanation for such maniacally violent and abhorrent postings. Very shocking, indeed.

  91. Mark Axinn

    Two points to follow up from my earlier comments at 102:

    1. Sunday is the fifth anniversary of the founding of the Objectivist Party, which chose the February 2 date to coincide with the birthday of Ayn Rand.

    3. I was remiss in failing to commend Dr. Stevens for his superlative work for many years in securing excellent speakers every month for meetings of the Queens LP chapter. Queens and Manhattan are the two largest and most active chapters in LPNY, and each has an interesting and thought-provoking speaker month after month, in large part due to Tom’s work in LPQC.

  92. wes wagner

    In Oregon 1.0 there was an occasional good deed thrown in by the person in question.

    On further review it often, but not always, turned out to be someone else’s work he was taking credit for.

    Still smells if Oregon 2.0

  93. James Babb

    I don’t think it’s fair to blame “Dr.” Tom for the problem of the LPPa. He’s just a symptom of bigger problems in the LP (or at least the LPPa). When this guy shuffles off to his next organization, the problem will still remain. The LPPa has been in decline since Bob Barr. Our party functions were moved to remote corners of the state to limit participation of the “radicals.” Those that didn’t join the Bob Barr train were attacked for not being “big tent” enough. Now, the tent is too small to accommodate the hard core folks that take bold actions and inspire others.

    Less than a decade ago, the LP was the key place to network with fellow freedom lovers. I have met some absolutely amazing people in LP. I know many solid libertarians that were were inspired to join the movement by Harry Browne and Michael Badnarik. I don’t see folks getting fired up by Barr’s DOMA or Johnson’s “Fair Tax.” When the GOP has a candidate that’s more libertarian than the LP, that should be a wakeup call. Jesus, the LP ran a guy that voted for the Patriot Act and helped murder 1,000,000 Iraqis. WTF? There was bound to be fall out. The last guy promoted “a strong military alliance with Israel” and wanted to keep Gitmo open, so the problem remains.

    Hard working, principled libertarians with skills and means have little need for the party as it is. We now have facebook, meetup and youtube. We can network across borders and collaborate in single issue alliances. It’s never been a better time to be a freedom activist, yet the LP seems to have been left behind.

    Most of what remains in many LP quarters are the “shiny badge seekers,” folks that want to play politics (cargo cult), and authoritarians looking for pond small enough to feel like a big fish. Those of us who actually want to “challenge the cult of the omnipotent state” run away from these losers.

    “Dr” Tom became the LPPa chairman, because it was basically an empty net situation. Interest was so low, that virtually anyone willing to do the job could seize that shiny badge. The LP needs to reinvent itself as the place to go if you want to use the electoral system to promote libertarianism. Voting in a corrupt game may be a total waste of time, but running for office can still be a great way to bring attention to issues, reach new people and network.

    I’d love to see a strong LP, because I’ve seen what our (actual libertarian) candidates can do. The LP will either find it’s roots, or just become another political party who’s only mission is it’s own perpetuation.

    Regardless of the central party’s future, our work in Montco will continue. If the shiny-badge people decide to treat us as an enemy, it’s of little consequence. For anyone struggling with a wanky central party, just remember that the all of the interesting things happen at the local level. A strong movement needs a broad base, with folks at all levels of development Use the LP to free minds. Don’t chastise the free-minds for not being held back by the LP.

  94. Andy

    James Babb said: “Less than a decade ago, the LP was the key place to network with fellow freedom lovers. I have met some absolutely amazing people in LP. I know many solid libertarians that were were inspired to join the movement by Harry Browne and Michael Badnarik. I don’t see folks getting fired up by Barr’s DOMA or Johnson’s ‘Fair Tax.’ When the GOP has a candidate that’s more libertarian than the LP, that should be a wakeup call. Jesus, the LP ran a guy that voted for the Patriot Act and helped murder 1,000,000 Iraqis. WTF? There was bound to be fall out. The last guy promoted ‘a strong military alliance with Israel’ and wanted to keep Gitmo open, so the problem remains.”

    I agree with your overall point here, but in all fairness I will say that the Gary Johnson campaign was not as bad at the Bob Barr campaign (and remember that Bob Barr was also for the Fair Tax).

    “Hard working, principled libertarians with skills and means have little need for the party as it is. We now have facebook, meetup and youtube. We can network across borders and collaborate in single issue alliances. It’s never been a better time to be a freedom activist, yet the LP seems to have been left behind.”

    The freedom movement has grown a lot since 2007 and a lot of that is because of Ron Paul’s two campaigns for the Republican nomination for President. The Libertarian Party has not benefited from this anywhere near as much as it could have and that is mostly due to internal problems in the party. I do think that the situation has been improving though.

    “The LP needs to reinvent itself as the place to go if you want to use the electoral system to promote libertarianism. Voting in a corrupt game may be a total waste of time, but running for office can still be a great way to bring attention to issues, reach new people and network.”

    I do think that Libertarians can get elected to local offices, and I think that we could elect Libertarians to seats in state legislatures in at least a few places if an intelligent strategy was followed.

    Most offices are realistically out of reach, and yes, in many ways it is a rigged game.

    This is why I think that it is important for Libertarian Party candidates to promote solutions that the general public can implement in their regular lives to help in the struggle for freedom that do not rely on electoral politics.

    One such tactic is jury nullification. I’ve been saying for years that the Libertarian Party should promote this issue a lot more than it does. If the power of jury nullification was common knowledge among the general public then the would have an extremely difficult time prosecuting people for victimless crimes.

    Another tactics which I believe that the Libertarian Party should be more vocal about is the use of alternate barter currencies. I’m talking about things like gold, silver, and Bitcoins.

    We need to realize that we may not be able to win at the ballot box, but even so we can still use the process of running for office to promote outside-the-box solutions where we can have a great effect without winning elections.

  95. James Babb

    Great observations Andy, especially on jury nullification and alternative currencies. These are real solutions that bypass the establishment. We actually win big here.

    Checkpoint nullification is another great opportunity to keep people out of jail, if you can get wind of the checkpint schedule in advance.

    We had a great recent experience doing FIJA pamphleting at the trials of NJWeedman. We nullified his pot distribution charge (http://www.trentonian.com/article/20121020/OPINION03/121029999/jury-upends-marijuana-law-njweedman-walks-free). The judge even gave us pamphleteers credit for “attempting to scuttle the judicial process” after his first trial with a hung jury. The second trial was nothing but net, 12-0 NOT GUILTY.

    In addition to our regular End-the-Fed rallies, we just had a ball hosting the “East Coast Bitcoin Summit” (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-sagavSvMdMBK36FBIfnVupeJdt_lMi5).

    Although there is not much for “the party” to do on these fronts, candidates, individuals and local committees can make a big impact.

  96. LPP

    Can Dr. Tom Stevens please explain why he calls people who disagree with him “””jewish niggers””” and “””pig fucks”””

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ManhattanLibertarians/message/20219

    Pig Fuck,

    Your ceaseless postings and rants, almost daily against myself, the Queens
    LP, Clifton, Axinn etc., no matter what the thread is actually about, is in my
    opinion harassment and proves you are a “sick fuck”.

    Saying you are one sick fuck is only the tip of the “iceberg” (not a Jewish
    word but often confused for one) regarding your mental condition. Everyone is
    already making up their own mind in that regard.

    Finally, I have been elected THREE times to represent the Manhattan LP. I
    have nothing else to prove. No one foisted me on the State Committee except
    the Manhattan LP members themselves.

    End of story. But I am sure you will continue to repeat your story over and
    over until some new people who weren’t around actually start to believe it.

    As Nic might say, stop acting like a Jewish Nigger!

    TRS

    how could the lppa ever move forward if this is the man they voted into power as chair of the party? Did Jamess babb vote for Dr Tom Stevens like all the other complainers did? hes your problem!

  97. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    LPP @ 120: Dr. Stevens: If you’ve said even one-tenth of the things mentioned above, you are harming our party. Unless you miraculously have a change in character (if such a thing is possible), I sincerely hope you’re replaced as the state chair. What a travesty.

  98. LPP

    Change of character @121? He brags about driving a foe to suicide just like he bragged about fantasizing of rape and killing. from Stevens:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ManhattanLibertarians/message/20317

    “””If he had remained as my friend and in the Queens LP, I am fairly certain he
    would be alive today. Instead, he went over to the dark side and kept company
    with thieves, pigs and sub-humans. Staheli then lied and made up stories
    about me to please his new keepers.

    Then out of shame at the recognition of his betrayals, he committed suicide.

    Shame on Monheist, Annoyan and Turnoff for abusing this young man and shame
    on Staheli for using me and then lying about what our conversations consisted
    of and for dragging an innocent man, Jeff Grizlo, into the discussion when
    all Jeff did was appoint Staheli VP of Stonewall Libertarians New York.

    If there is a hell, Chris Staheli is definitely burning in it right now.””” how people voted him in to lppa is a good question babb how did this happen on your watch if you are so active were you part of him getting in?

  99. LPP

    and I quote Dr tom stevens “””I must agree with Blay that I had a role in enabling him to commit suicide.”””
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ManhattanLibertarians/message/20307?source=1&var=1&l=1

    so there he brags about running a political foe to his death. hitmen, racist rants against black women, calling political foes “””jewish niggers””” promoting bestiality, setting political foes up with outrageous activty why is this man even active in the lp period? I don’t want anything to do with any of you in the lppa because of your closeness to stevens. this guy is not libertarian he is a cause for concern i don’t care what he chairs dr tom stevens you need to step down thats all

  100. Andy

    “As Nic might say, stop acting like a Jewish Nigger!”

    He must mean somebody acting like this guy:

  101. James Babb

    Wow, the rabbit hole is even deeper than I imagined.

    @LPP 122:

    “how people voted him in to lppa is a good question babb how did this happen on your watch if you are so active were you part of him getting in?”

    I believe I explained above how the current chair was elected. There were no good choices, and nobody gave a crap, because the the LPPa is not currently relevant. We do our own thing. It’s not my responsibility to rehabilitate the wrecked organization.

    So, NO I certainly did not vote for Tom and it’s not “my watch.”

  102. LPP

    ook 126 I thought you had enough activity to deal with stevens especially now he is said to live in your backyard you would be silly to ignore him he causes great harm as we call see he is far from libertarian in his acts. what about this Viker guy he wasnt good either you mean to tell me you think viker is as bad as stevens?

  103. Steve M

    ah think (always dangerous) that there are a lot of problems n all parties.

    So far, at least two of the PA county parties have arbitrary and capricious for determining who can be a member.

    Then we have a whole lot of mud slinging at the PA chair much of it old and unsubstantiated but what the hell we are libertarians and so we hang people with out fair hearings with evidence?

    As a voter…. this collection of activities makes me very comfortable with libertarians running the government…Not!

    Essentially, if the county parties don’t trust people who want to be members of the party why would voters in general trust this party?

    If we are going to engage in internet lynchings why would anyone think we could be any good at creating a system that guaranties liberties?

  104. Steve M

    I am trying to keep track of the “obfuscated identities”

    So we have LPP, Andy, ITK, NewFederalist, Be Rational, MLP, Me, James T, Lefty Danger Pistolero and of course Steve M.

    Why would anyone trust the lot of them on a jury?

  105. Steve M

    Ah think (you already know my refrain)

    that hard line libertarians would rather be in control of their small pieces of turf then build coalitions that can win elections. Thus they build groups that are as restrictive to “outside” participation as the systems that democrats and republicans build to prevent participation in elections.

    Ah think, that these hard core libertarians are so out of touch that being out of touch is more important then participating in a competitive way.

    Ah think, that George Phillies is absolutely correct that “you can proceed by ignoring them, and forming an organization of grownups that actually does politics”

  106. Steve M

    In Pennsylvania of course the proof is that the hard core did nothing and that a coalition rallied together and despite a well funded republican challenge put Libertarians onto the ballot.

    What we see here is a backlash by the hard core against this success.

  107. Ed Reagan

    Here is a little Tom Stevens history from his Ron Paul supporting days in 2007….

    http://grylliade.org/drupal/node/962

    Here are a few choice passages….

    1) He has also sent out mailings in the past to start checking accounts and to have donations put into a private account and does not work with the Ron Paul Organization, but as a separate entity.

    2)Yesterday I finally decided to take Dr. Tom Stevens off my meet-up members group because I took notice that when I clicked on his member profile where he had 70 friends I saw that one was completely nude and another was of a young boy who was nude from the waist up as well as that most of the men were shirtless. I clicked on a few more links and came up with two websites started by Dr. Tom Stevens that you can view below. One is listed in the gayteen meet-up category and one is in the men category.

    3) Tom Stevens, who added me to a Paul for Power Coalition that I never asked to be on, blacklisted me as a Jew Hater and Bigot. He also censored my mail so that my answer to his huge diatribe was not seen by anyone on the coalition so as I was blacklisted I was not able to defend myself.

    4)Dr.Tom Stevens,
    You have got to be kidding. The only reason I took you off my meet-up group was because I didn’t feel that a fully naked man showing his cock or a meet-up group photo of you squeezing a young boys nipples was the appropriate thing to see on a Ron Paul meet-up board. Now I had no idea you were gay or jewish so blaming my actions on bigotry was quite out of line. Instead you can blame it on my conservatism.

  108. Ed Reagan

    There is also this blog posting about Tom Stevens from 2010….

    http://mockingtomstevens.blogspot.com/

    Is Tom Stevens a Pedophile, or just a Liar and Sociopath?
    Thomas Stevens, a Fresh Meadows, NY resident, has made quite the spectacle of himself lately ever since being expelled from the Libertarian Party of New York.

    Chris Cantwell, who is a Libertarian Party of NY State Committeeman, as well as Director of Outreach for the Libertarian Party of Suffolk County, and Assistant Organizer for the Suffolk County Campaign for Liberty said

    Since the name of this blog is “Mocking Tom Stevens” I’m going to write about myself in the third person like he does. It feels absolutely ridiculous, and I don’t understand how Stevens manages to do it so frequently.

    In any case, Stevens is a serious problem and I’m proud to have put into action the motion which got him expelled from the Libertarian Party of New York. Stevens has been accused of raping children and soliciting the murder of his political rivals in the past. He has made a mockery of the Libertarian Party and some suspect he has used it as a vehicle with which to lure young men into sexual encounters with him. Nobody is sure if Tom Stevens is a child raping, rival killing, sociopath, or just a lying manipulating sociopath, but what is certain is that Tom Stevens is a sociopath who lies and cheats to get what he wants.
    Teddy Ruxpin, a talking child’s toy whose words are about as relevant as anything Tom Stevens has to say said,

    Come Dream With Me Tonight, go to sleep, sleeping time. Will you go to sleep before i do? This lovely night
    Stevens has recently taken a number of fraudulent actions against the Libertarian Party of New York and its affiliates, including but not limited to,

    Incorporating a Non-Profit organization called “Libertarian Party of New York”, which is in no way affiliated with the real LPNY.
    Registering the domains lpny.org, lpny.com, and lpny.net, then trying to sell them to the real LPNY for $10,000
    Claiming to be chair of “Long Island Libertarians” an organization which he has never attended a meeting of, and was found by Bruce Allan Martin years ago.
    Claiming to have endorsed Randy Altschuler, the least Libertarian of all candidates in the Congressional race in New York’s 1st District over the duly nominated candidate, Chris Cantwell.
    Supporting Sam Sloan in his feeble attempt to usurp the Libertarian Party nomination for governor of New York, which Warren Redlich won in a landslide victory at the LPNY convention.
    And all this after being voted out of the LPNY by a 13-1 vote of the State Committee on over 300 charges of Bylaws violations including knowingly, seriously, and repeatedly disrupting meetings and activities of the LPNY, claiming to represent the LPNY while knowing that not to be the case, and following a continued public course of action knowing it to be contrary to the principles and objectives of the LPNY as set forth in Article I of the By-Laws.

    Tickle Me Elmo, another talking child’s toy with more brains than Stevens and his co-conspirators said,

    Ah Ha Ha Ha, That Tickles!

  109. Steve M

    Since 103 there has been a real turn towards character assassination. Lots of accusations, where is the proof?

    Accusations of course, don’t equal proof, at least not in a libertarian world… unless these accusers are the “libertarians” who rule.

  110. Steve M

    Ed Reagan, for example is a member of the Montgomery Libertarian Party.

    Full disclosure when you comment would be honest.

  111. Steve M

    I asked indirectly so I would like to ask more directly…. Where are the Montgomery County Libertarian Party Bylaws published?

    After all you have nothing to hide?

  112. Steve M

    Ed Reagan,

    lots of criminal accusations. lots of character accusations… where are the convictions? where is your proof?

    Hardly libertarian if you have none.

  113. Ed Reagan

    @135
    I am a member of any County parties in Pennsylvania that wants me, which includes Montgomery County.

    I live in Northampton County and can not join that County party since the bylaw do not allow open membership.

    Tom Stevens wrote those Bylaw and is the Chair of th Northampton County LP, the Philadelphia LP and the LPPa.

    Since I can not join my home County party, I have been voluntering my time to any county party in Pennsylvania that wants it.

    I want to run for office as a Libertarian Party candidate in 2013, but my candidacy must be endorsed by the my county party and the LPPa, which Tom Stevens chairs both.

    Tom Stevens has written, “Ed Reagan, who has explicitly and unanimously been denied endorsement by the Northampton County LP for any office in 2013 or 2014″

    This is my punishment for wanting to change the LPPa Bylaws at the 2013 state conention to require residency to hold a board position of the LPPa and all affilated county and regional groups. And for wroking to remove Tom Stevens from the LPPa for violating the NAP.

  114. Steve M

    Lets be clear about this… while the “hard core” libertarians of Montgomery county sat on their collective asses. The Pennsylvania Green party activists, concerned republicans and real libertarians volunteered their time to defend the right of the libertarian party to run a candidate for president in Pennsylvania.

  115. Steve M

    “I want to run for office as a Libertarian Party candidate in 2013, but my candidacy must be endorsed by the my county party and the LPPa, which Tom Stevens chairs both. ”

    Nonsense you can collect the petitions and run for office with or without the local county party endorsement.

  116. Ed Reagan

    @139

    Steve M, I vounteered my time to work on the ballot access challenge for the LPPa as did other members of the Montco LP.

    As for collecting signatures, the LP and Johnson campaign hired a firm to do the petitons.

  117. Ed Reagan

    @140

    I have been informed that now that we have achieved minor pary status, that path is no longer available.

  118. Steve M

    Well then you must not be a hard core Libertarian from Montgomery.

    But why would the lack of pay have stopped you from collecting signatures for the party presidential candidate or other state wide offices?

  119. Steve M

    @142 now that would be interesting…. ask your sources to quote you the law that they are referring too. I am skeptical.

  120. Ed Reagan

    Tom Stevens blog formerly called “Liberty Lion” is now named “Rising Action”.

    This change was caused by Tom Stevens violating the trademarked name “Liberty Lion” which is owned by Doctor Mark Mitchell Who is a medical doctor, not a JD like Tom Stevens. How many JDs call themselves “Doctor”?

    Dr. Mitchell’s trademark is for the use of Liberty Lion for: Providing a website featuring blogs and non-downloadable publications in the nature of articles and journals in the fields of political science, economics and world affairs.

    His website is http://www.libertylion.com

    USPTO link: http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4010:12ie0g.3.1

  121. James Babb

    Steve M 131:
    “In Pennsylvania of course the proof is that the hard core did nothing and that a coalition rallied together and despite a well funded republican challenge put Libertarians onto the ballot. What we see here is a backlash by the hard core against this success.”

    Steve M 139:
    “Lets be clear about this… while the “hard core” libertarians of Montgomery county sat on their collective asses.”

    Actually, at least two of our officers (RIchard Schwarz and Kat Valalley) worked full time for weeks to defend the Gary Johnson petitions. If some of us did not support the GJ candidacy, does not equal “nothing.”

    And frankly I must say, who the F’ are you to tell me that we “sat on their collective asses?” You know nothing about what we do here, and you haven’t even bothered to find out. I’m not even sure why you care.

    I’m happy to have a civil discussion about issues, but please refrain from baseless insults.

  122. James Babb

    @Steve M 130

    “Thus they build groups that are as restrictive to “outside” participation as the systems that democrats and republicans build to prevent participation in elections.”

    Who is this comment directed at? The chair of the Northampton County LP or the chair of the LPPa?

  123. James Babb

    @Steve M 128
    “So far, at least two of the PA county parties have arbitrary and capricious for determining who can be a member.”

    You do realize that the one of these (Northampton County) is a 100% Tom Stevens committee, right? If you are referring to York County for the other one, I’m not aware of any “arbitrary and capricious [standards]” for membership.

    @Steve M 136
    “Where are the Montgomery County Libertarian Party Bylaws published?

    Knock yourself out. http://files.meetup.com/197261/Montco%20Bylaws.pdf

  124. LPP

    its not old or unsubstantiated to show that the Dr tom stevens lppa chair is a racist sexist pig that uses threats of violence intimidation bullying and controversy to control.
    there is reason why he was thrown out of ny is now in pennsylvania trying to control. Will he answer for his actions as has been requested here by many? Why does he attack his foes and wish crimes of rape & murder on them? Why does he threaten them? Dr tom stevens please do tell.
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ManhattanLibertarians/message/20920

    Tom said:
    > ===
    > I’d say “go fuck yourself” but you may not want to after the Nazi Youth get
    > their turns at you.
    >
    > Andrea calls me a “sick fuck”. If she believes that, she’d better stay away.
    >
    > TRS

    What Stevens- is this a threat? How ridiculous. And why are you so hostile
    anyway? Is it really a surprise that you wouldn’t be invited to my list?
    Honestly, chill out!

    Andrea

  125. LPP

    to 134 the proof is obvious why do you think many have called for Dr tom stevens to answer to his own postings? Dr tom stevens can answer for his actions without you running to his defense each time a claim is made. Are you a relative or ally of Dr tom stevens? next step is to contact the democrat and republican parties. After we go to press with evidence of Dr tom stevens behavior.

  126. LPP

    to Dr tom stevens is this something you can explain?

    Subject: RE: [Paul_Power] Re: A Sensitive Issue & A Broad Coalition
    Date: 7/21/2007 10:23:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
    From: BowmanComputers
    Reply To:
    To: Paul_Power@yahoogroups.com
    Dr.Tom Stevens,
    You have got to be kidding. The only reason I took you off my meet-up group was because I didn’t feel that a fully naked man showing his cock or a meet-up group photo of you squeezing a young boys nipples was the appropriate thing to see on a Ron Paul meet-up board. Now I had no idea you were gay or jewish so blaming my actions on bigotry was quite out of line. Instead you can blame it on my conservatism.
    Please remove me from the coalition I never even asked to be a part of so I don’t have to deal with this ridiculous nonsense any further

  127. LPP

    telling female foes you want to grope them and calling them whores Dr tom stevens? there is NO accusation only links to his posts
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ManhattanLibertarians/message/20859?source=1&var=1&l=1

    getting into costume,
    > Andrea applying the makeup and me pinching and feeling her up,

    Dream on, Nic. It’s bizarre to me that you would even say that – what? you
    can’t stand me, you think I’m a nazi – but you still want to grope me? That’s
    just weird.

    =======
    A feel is a feel. You don’t have to like the whores you grope.
    =======

  128. LPP

    LPPA chair Dr tom stevens everyone
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ManhattanLibertarians/message/20808?source=1&var=1&l=1

    Dr. Stevens wrote:
    ===================
    > Ms. Jodi,
    >
    > I never called Blay a “Jew Pig”. Please get your facts straight.
    >
    > After Blay has repeatedly (for 4 years) called me and implied that I am a
    > pedophile,
    > I did abandon “intellectual debate”, which I feel was inappropriate in
    this
    > instance,
    > and called him a Jewish Nigger and a Pig Fuck.
    >
    > I never called him a “Jew Pig”. Provide your evidence or retract your
    > statement!!!
    >-
    > Dr. Tom Stevens
    > Manhattan LP State Representative

  129. LPP

    don’t ask “doctor” tom stevens why he calls himself “doctor” he’ll threaten to sue you! LOL crazy tyrant====
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ManhattanLibertarians/message/10428?source=1&var=1&l=1

    You are asking for a lawsuit if you continue to put my “Dr.” in quotes. You
    are now on notice. I have a Juris Doctorate degree and the New York State Bar
    Association says I may use it both professionally and socially. I use it
    because I teach and it is the most appropriate title for me.

    And as usual, your arguments above are as full of holes and lies as your
    recent claim that I was “kicked out” of the Young Republicans.

    Can’t you keep silent when you have nothing contructive to add?

    Dr. Tom Stevens

  130. Ed Reagan

    @143

    Because I was living in Stamford, CT doing a project for a client until May. I switched parties in May when I got laid off and expolored running for the PA House 137 district, but could not get on the ballot since I needed to switch parties prior to the primary.

    After joining the LPPa I heard nothing from them. In early Sept I recieved an email from the LP asking for help with the ballot access issuse and called right away to help out.

  131. Erik Viker

    “This Viker guy” agreed to accept a nomination to provide an alternative to none-of-the-above, and ran as the “I won’t do a damn thing you should be doing yourself” option for state chair. The majority of delegates at the annual meeting wanted a sttae chair who did more than the LPPA bylaws required.

  132. Mark Axinn

    Steve M. at 134 wrote:
    “Since 103 there has been a real turn towards character assassination.”

    I just re-read my comments at 103 (and 114), all of which are factually accurate. Which of my statements are “character assassination”?

    Who are you and what is the basis for accusing me of character assassination? To the contrary, I have been inordinately circumspect in my comments!

  133. JamesT

    Wow…we need to get Dr. Tom out of organization. If the LPPA ever amounts to anything the media can just look into him and make us all look crazy. No wonder NY kicked him out.

  134. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Steve M: Are you purposefully being obtuse, or do you just enjoy being contrary? Those links look official enough to “prove” to me that Dr. Stevens is a dangerous loose cannon who is harming the LP, nd has clearly done so in the past. I recall you said above that you’re from California. Would you like to enlighten us of all the activism you’ve done for our state, which would entitle you to be so rude to the LPPA members who are commenting here?

  135. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I’ve decided to send Dr. Stevens a message on FB asking him to participate in this discussion. For the record, I had asked him last Sunday before I posted this article if it was all right that I post his letter which was in the article above, and he answered “Yes, of course”. Here’s what I’ve sent him just now:

    “Some very serious accusations of your past behaviors, especially in New York, are being discussed in the Independent Political Report article which I started last Sunday. I would urge you to try to convince us they’re not true, and, if they are, please try to explain such behavior to us.” I’ll report here if/when I hear from him, unless he posts here directly.

  136. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I notice that a fairly high amount of the comments from the LPPA folks keep getting caught in the spam filter, probably because of the links in them. I’ll try to monitor it throughout the day and pull them out.

  137. Ed Reagan

    @134 States: “Since 103 there has been a real turn towards character assassination.”

    Maybe “Doctor” Tom Stevens should have not used the LPPA_BB Yahoo Group to post a now deleted, but delivered to the entire listserv, character assassination of me.

    That triggered me filing a formal complaint against “Doctor” Tom Stevens with the LPPA Judicial Committee. They rules on what was in their jurisdiction. My change that “Doctor” Tom Stevens violated the LPPA’s non-initiation of force oath. Which reads, “I hereby certify that I do not believe in or advocate the initiation of force or fraud as a means of achieving political or social goals.

    Following the Judicial Committee’s direction, which was that only Board may remove a member for violating the non-initiation of force oath. I drove 4.5 hours round trip to the LPPA board meeting on January 26, 2013, with the intent to file a complaint with to file with the board to investigate “Doctor” Tom Stevens.

    When we got to close to the new business portion of the meeting, “Doctor” Tom Stevens slid a note to the new LPPA Secretary that was appointed at that meeting. “Doctor” Tom Stevens then motioned to adjourn and the Secretary quickly seconded the motion and the meeting was adjourned. An hour into its scheduled 3 hour duration.

    I was not the only one who was there to submit items under new business. So were the Chairmen of the Montco and York LPs.

    “Doctor” Tom Stevens was overheard another member stating “that is how we operate around here” or something to that effect.

    “Doctor” Tom Stevens refers the two counties listed above as the “Montco Problem” and the “York Problem”. It has been shared with us that he is planning on developing a Membership Committee, then organize replacement county groups for Montco and York Counties and recognize those new groups as the “official” groups after the new Membership Committee rules that the new county groups are “more Libertarian” in makeup.

    “Doctor” Tom Stevens has also not recognized the request of several county LPs for a copy of the LPPA membership list so that the county LPs can each out to the LPPA members to notify them of upcoming events or to send out campaign materials.

    Ken Krawchuk the Secretary of the Montco LP and has on at least two occasions submitted proposed Bylaw amendment to the LPPA Secretary. The receipt of his proposed Bylaw changes has never been confirmed, nor have they been uploaded to the “Proposed Bylaw Amendments For the 2013 Annual State Convention” folder on the LPPA_BB Yahoo Group.

    Also be aware that anything posted to the LPPA_BB Yahoo group needs to approved by “Doctor” Tom Stevens as the sole moderator of the LPPA_BB Yahoo Group. “Doctor” Tom Stevens uses this the LPPA_BB email listserv as his bully pulpit to bash and defame those who question or stray from HIS definition of Libertarianism.

    One last item, the LPPA’s Annual State Convention was schedule to be held at the Best Western Lehigh Valley Hotel & Conference Center in Bethlehem, PA on April 19 & 20, 2013. “Doctor” Tom Stevens shared with me in early September, 2012 when he assigned me to the Convention Committee that the convention was being held in the Lehigh Valley in 2013.

    On October 11, 2012, “Doctor” Tom Stevens posted to the LPPA_BB Yahoo Group “As was previously reported, a lack of suitable convention
    Space in Northampton County (together with the geographic location of that county) already forced us to look elsewhere.”

    “Doctor” Tom Stevens then moved the LPPA’s Annual State Convention to Danville, PA on April 26 & 27, 2013. Due to “a lack of suitable convention space in Northampton County (together with the geographic location of that county)”

    Members of the Montco LP have been told by other party members that “Doctor” Tom Stevens “picked Danville because he knew that his drunk opposition will not make the trip”.

    So “Doctor” Tom Stevens moved the convention away from the Montco LP since the original hotel was 45 miles one way from central Montgomery County vs. Danville which is 134 miles one way. I also think me living 10.7 miles from the original hotel was a factor as well.

    Now to address “Doctor” Tom Stevens claim that there was “a lack of suitable convention
    space in Northampton County”. I call bullshit. Here is why:

    1) I have attended a regional convention for my fraternity Alpha Phi Omega at that same hotel, with my fraternity brother and current NJLP Chair Jay Edgar. Who can vouch that the facility suitable to handle the convention.

    2) That is the hotel where the Northampton Friends of the NRA dinner is held, which I am involved with.

    3) That is the hotel that Senator Pat Toomey hosted his primary election night party at.

    4) Lastly all there other facilities in the Lehigh Valley could have hosted the convention and are all much nicer that the Days Inn in Danville.

    http://www.theeastonian.com/
    http://www.hotelbethlehem.com/
    http://www.pasands.com/pennsylvania-casino/events/meetings/
    http://www.artsquest.org/hostanevent/artsquestcenter/facilities/
    http://www.hilehighvalley.com/
    http://www.bcmountainresort.com/events-bear-creek
    http://www.lehigh.edu/~inocs/wood.shtml

    So “Doctor” Tom Stevens please feel free to explain your actions documented above.

    We are ALL waiting for your response.

  138. Steve M

    Jill,

    last time I checked an accusation is not the same thing as proof. Did you bother to read the email or message threads.

    As too my activism….. zero …. unless you want to count the tens of thousands of dollars that I have contributed to multiple candidates, state parties, national party and other libertarian organizations.

  139. JamesT

    @103 to add to Ed’s point. Look at the Montco event. The look at the Dr Tom’s response. It’s literally just a character assassination of MontcoLP members. It didn’t take a turn it started that way.

  140. Be Rational

    Steve M.

    Why are you supporting Dr. Tom Stevens? It seems obvious that he needs to go.

    The LP PA needs to get together and vote him out of his State and County LP positions.

    The LP PA also needs to make sure that the state LP and the county LP groups (such as the York county cult, the county bunker of Stevens and any others so limited) are open to new members and encourage newcomers, without any kind of voting-in or other paranoid, cult-like restrictions.

    Every member of the LP PA should be an automatic member of the county group where he or she lives. The county and state LP groups should work together.

  141. LPP

    Steve M 167 you told your name is Steven Meier in California yes? According to your fb activity it seems you are much closer. Allentown? You too have ties to NY area and frequent same crowds as Dr Tom Stevens. Of your donations you gloat are these yours?
    http://www.campaignmoney.com/political/contributions/steven-meier.asp?cycle=12

    MEIER, STEVEN-
    CHICAGO, IL-
    60622- Jenner & Block Llp/Attorney $375 10/19/2012 G OBAMA VICTORY FUND 2012 – Democrat-
    MEIER, STEVEN
    CHICAGO, IL-
    60622 Jenner & Block Llp/Attorney $1,000 10/16/2012 G OBAMA FOR AMERICA – Democrat-
    MEIER, STEVEN R MR
    LINCOLN, MA
    01773 State Street/C.I.O. $1,000 09/06/2012 P SCOTT BROWN FOR US SENATE COMMITTEE INC – Republican
    MEIER, STEVEN
    NEW YORK, NY
    10022 Self-Employed/Attorney $250 06/08/2012 P OBAMA FOR AMERICA – Democrat-
    MEIER, STEVEN
    CHICAGO, IL-
    60622 Jenner & Block Llp/Attorney $2,500 03/12/2012 P OBAMA VICTORY FUND 2012 – Democrat-
    MEIER, STEVEN
    CHICAGO, IL-
    60622 Jenner & Block Llp/Attorney $375 12/31/2011 P OBAMA FOR AMERICA – Democrat-
    MEIER, STEVEN
    CHICAGO, IL
    60622 Jenner & Block Llp/Attorney $250 09/30/2011 P OBAMA FOR AMERICA – Democrat-
    MEIER, STEVEN
    CHICAGO, IL-/
    60605 Jenner & Block/Attorney $500 06/29/2011 P QUIGLEY FOR CONGRESS – Democrat/
    MEIER, STEVEN-
    CHICAGO, IL-
    60605 Jenner & Block Llp/Attorney $500 06/02/2011 P OBAMA FOR AMERICA – Democrat-//

  142. Manuel Gomez

    @170 I shouldn’t qualify your comment in any regard, but I ask that you discontinue referring to York as a cult.

    We’ve refuted your abstractions, and all relevant York LP documents are on our site for all to freely examine.

    We run candidates in every election and do arguably better than most chapters. Our candidates are not mired in the 0-3% range; we well exceed those meager returns. Check it for yourselves if you have any doubts.

    Here’s my hyper-local twitter account where I engage media daily and tackle local issues from a Libertarian position with regularity : https://twitter.com/NoPovertyPimps

    Our website is full of original articles chronicling our public advocacy and activity. I myself am like the furniture at local city council; I’m always present, and functionally active in my participation. Unlike you I’m not in the shadows using obfuscated identities to promote strife and discord on the web. I’m active on a hyper-local level, and proud of my record of promoting libertarian solutions to local problems.

    Here’s our January open invite for our first meeting operating under newly amended bylaws.

    http://yorklp.org/january-york-lp-monthly-meeting

    Clearly we’re coddling power in a centralized private club, right, anonymous troll?

    Now, if you can, would you please provide us with your track record and history?

    I reckon you cannot.

  143. Manuel Gomez

    @170 furthermore, about LPPA members having automatic membership in local affiliates – NO.

    Chapter autonomy will NOT be acquiesced to allow LPPA bureaucrats to determine the fitness of, or requirements pursuant to, membership in the York LP.

    Local chapters determine membership rules. We wouldn’t abide by any LPPA dictates contravening our membership rules.

    That’s what makes you think we’re a cult? You’re either another Tom Stevens lackey, or woefully uncultured and apprised of local organizing standards and practices.

  144. Manuel Gomez

    meant not apprised … but that’s clear. Either you have a problem operating in a network of mutually observed, spontaneous shared interests, or you’re another Dr. Tom Stevens plant.

    One of the two. Anyone not in those two categories would have no problem ‘letting go’ and respecting chapter autonomy as both fruitful and prudent.

  145. Ed Reagan

    Mark @ 171:

    I stopped by the Days Inn in Danville on the way to the LPPA board meeting last weekend.

    The palace is a dump.

    None of the exterior door to the hotel’s interior hallways lock. One exterior door even had a hole where the lock used to be.

    If I was was a female member of the LPPA, I would plan in staying at a different hotel or bring a side arm along for your protection. Since this hotel sits right next to I-80.

    Seriously this hotel looks like a place truck drivers would take a dead hooker to.

    Don’t believe me?

    Look at the TripAdvisor review and photos.

    http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g52470-d96351-Reviews-Days_Inn_Danville_Conference_Center-Danville_Pennsylvania.html

    Now compare and contrast this hovel to the hotels that are located in the orginal location in the Lehigh Valley on 166 above.

    Top nothch site selection there “Doctor” Tom Stevens.

  146. Be Rational

    @173 Since I”ve called for the replacement of Tom Stevens, you should have the wit to realize I could not be a lackey.

    You have refuted nothing. You have objected and whined, but not refuted. You cannot.

    However, you keep proving that the York County LP is a closed cult with your comments. Your chapter is closed to all outsiders – your board elects itself and only adds those it wants.

    That is how a cult operates.

    It is no way to organize a politcal party.

    The LP PA needs to kick out Tom Stevens and set up its own county party system and ignore your cult.

    Membership should be inclusive and as automatic as possible. Combined PA and National memberships should be standard with automatic inclusion of local county membership … This should be the system – if there is a dues based membership. Otherwise, all registered LP voters should be considered automatic members of the PA LP and the local county LP.

    Your group could continue as an independent cult outside the LP where you won’t do any harm.

  147. Manuel Gomez

    @176 who are you? It’s clear who I am, it’s clear who runs the York LP, and it’s clear we run an above board operation.

    Who are you, other than anonymous troll fleeing the ship captained by Dr. Tom Stevens? You started by praising him and admonishing his detractors, and now you’re dumping on him and purporting to know the best way forward.

    You have no say in who is and isn’t fit for membership in York, never will, and should just get a grip.

    What local affiliate do you help administer, structure and operate? I’d like to examine your history and operations.

    Please elucidate as to your function in the LP, local state or otherwise.

  148. Mark Axinn

    Ed @ 175:

    The only thing I know about Danville is the Friendly’s. The ice cream is very good!

    I assume the rest of Danville is a shithole like most poor, depressed towns are. But the very next town is Lewisburg, where Bucknell and the federal pen. are, and it is lovely with a beautifully restored historic hotel and many good restaurants and shops.

    Manuel @ 173:

    I do not know anything about the internal politics of the LPPA , but I am interested to see that chapter autonomy appears to be an issue. Tom Stevens has a long history in New York of arguing for that issue, especially when his own chapter was threatened, and I supported him in such effort.

  149. MLP

    where’s Dr. tom stevens to respond to calls for his removal? if your lppa and dont see a problem then you ARE the problem..

  150. MLP

    where’s Dr. tom stevens to respond to calls for his removal? if your lppa and dont see a problem then you ARE the problem…

  151. Be Rational

    Michael Gomez. I see now that you cannot read and comprehend the content of your reading. This will add to your inability to function rationally and contribute to your paranoia.

    To be precise: There is no statement by me anywhere at any time praising Dr. Tom Stevens. He was a detrimental factor in the New York LP and is now in the Pennsylvania LP. He should be voted out.

    And here you go again exposing your paranoid cult:

    “You have no say in who is and isn’t fit for membership in York, never will … ”

    No outsiders admitted. Total control by the current cult leadership.

  152. MLP

    no wonder the Steve meier character is opposed to locals doiing their own thing he has money and the York cult wahatevr they are did away with pay to play as they say. I dont favor York because they are in pa and such are still tainted by lppa. I still say that at least they took measures to act but maybe Dr tom stevens will end up with them i’ve seen it in Ny. As for Dr tom stevens he should respond to what is here. Now we wait. next step will be full exposing of Dr tom stevens.

  153. Manuel Gomez

    @182 you read that correctly. You are an anonymous troll and I repeat: you have no say in who is a member in the York LP. Though clearly, for some reason you wish you did. Very bizarre crop of trolls in this thread. I must say.

  154. Manuel Gomez

    @ 182 it’s Manuel Gomez. For all your maniacal obsessing over the York LP functions, you seem to have a very poor retention of pertinent details.

    I ask once again, for the last time. Please state your identity, and elucidate as to your role in the LP, local, state, or otherwise. You’re fixated upon York – what is your interest other than internet trolling?

  155. Be Rational

    Manuel Gomez, yes it’s not Michael, why are you so afraid to have an open membership that chooses it’s own leaders? Are you so afraid that they won’t choose you? Will you be replaced?

    If you are qualified, you should be able to convince your expanding membership base to continually reelect you. If you are not qualified you should be replaced.

    However, your paranoid fear of outsiders does disqualify you as a leader.

    Why should I care?

    Because poor leadership of various state, local and the national LP is the reason the LP is still languishing at 1% for POTUS and hasn’t elected a single member of the US House or Senate.

  156. Ed Reagan

    Mark @ 179

    I will more than likly end up having casual meal at Quaker Steak and Lube in Buchhorn. Formal meals at The Inn at Turkey Hill in Bloomsburg. And get my drink on at Russel’s and the Turkey Hill Brewing Company in Bloomsburg.

  157. Mark Axinn

    Ed–

    Sounds good.

    I frequently drive across 80 between NYC and Ohio, and Bloomsburg, Buckhorn and Lewisburg have all been good places to stop along the way for a bite. But my favorite is the Power House Eatery which is bit closer to the Poconos.

  158. Manuel Gomez

    @186 my are you dense and offbeat. I’m not even a member of the executive board, which makes your inaccurate abstractions all the more superfluous.

    I’m an active committee member, just like any York resident can be, at any point, no sponsorship needed.

    Dr. Tom Stevens, if you would please answer to your use of the phrase ‘jewish nigger’ to attack those who disagree with you, I’d like to see your explanation.

    The posts from Dr. Tom Stevens calling for rape and murder of his detractors alone should disqualify him from membership in any LP organization. That is a violation of the non-coercion principle, clear and without question.

    I guess this is a million times worse than I thought. What we have here is not a case of a merely inept, socially repugnant LPPA chair; but a case of a serious potential exploit within the LPPA structure from someone who is clearly volatile and suggests violent tendencies.

  159. Manuel Gomez

    I should clarify Dr. Tom Stevens didn’t call for rape and murder of his detractors. The post above indicates some have felt he has murderous fantasies. He did post the following:

    Tom Stevens wrote:
    > =========
    > Perhaps but I would simply have had her shot by now AFTER her being of use
    > to all the boys in the Nazi Youth camp, of course.

    It’s very disturbing, and I’m afraid that’s reason enough for removal from LPPA authority.

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ManhattanLibertarians/message/20908?source=1&var=1&l=1

  160. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 1

    Babb wrote: “Why would an LP state chair feel threatened by this? It makes no sense, unless he’s a sociopathic authoritarian.”

    Stevens response: I do not feel threatened by this and I am not a sociopathic authoritarian. The “workship” is not what it is being sold as. In the January 8th Montco Minutes, the event is being referred to as an “LPPA Pre-Convention Convention” and an “Eastern Regional Conference” with one goal being to “colonize” surrounding counties. This “workshop” is not an LPPA event and the goal is only to help undermine the gains we have achieved this past year by those concerned about the ideological purity of newly recruited members. Babb has stated that the LPPA is a detriment to liberty and he is not a member yet he is co-sponsor of this event.

  161. Be Rational

    @189 I don’t believe that you had ever stated that you were a member of the exclusive board that runs the cult, thank you for clarifying, so you are just a follower of the cult and a defender of the cult leadership. Got it.

  162. Be Rational

    @191 Dr. Tom. You need to explain all of your quotes listed above.

    Many people here, including myself, have called for you to be replaced as chair of the LP PA.

  163. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 4

    James T wrote: Tom Stevens…seems to be an ego maniac. He legitimately thinks there is a “conspiracy against him.” The LPPA and LP in general should be a bottom up organization but he is basically trying to run it as a monarchy and attack long time activist who have a great effect outside of JUST running candidates. But the LPPA has been “Bob Barr’ types since I’ve been active outside of MontCo.

    Stevens response: I am not an ego maniac. I do not run the LPPA as a monarchy. All actions taken are with authorization and approval of the Board of Directors. All actions of the Board are noted in detailed Minutes available for all members to review. We have a variety of libertarian activists in the LPPA and most are not Bob Barr types. The Montco LP is good with activism but many are anarchists and purists who don’t believe in structure and organization. Finally, in the end, groups must be sustained locally but where the State LP can help is in identifying activists interested in being involved and then putting them in touch with each other. I do not believe there is a “conspiracy” against me. Only people obsessed with obtaining power at all costs and tearing down those diligently working to build the party and local county organizations.

  164. Manuel Gomez

    I guess I’ll just have to live with your characterization, anonymous troll, however inaccurate it may be.

    And yes, Dr. Tom Stevens, please do respond to the methods you have employed which are exposed in this thread.

    I’m afraid your postings and attacks on others are unlibertarian, and can serve to sully and damage the reputation of good libertarians in this state should they be proliferated.

  165. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 5

    Jeremy C. Young wrote: How did Dr. Tom Stevens become chair of the LPPA? I thought he lived in New York. Regardless, he is an egomaniac and inveterate shit-stirrer who humiliated and torpedoed his own candidate for LP-Pres in 2012.

    Stevens response: I was elected State Chair by a 60-40 vote at the LPPA Annual Convention held in April, 2012. At the time, I told the delegates my two big negatives; that I did not live in Pennsylvania and that I would be on the ballot in Colorado and Florida as the candidate of the Objectivist Party for President. However, I promised not to campaign against Gary Johnson and to put 100% of my time into the LPPA. As for harming the LP candidate for President I was Campaign Manager for, why would I do something like that?

  166. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 6

    New Federalist: Is he a Ph.D.?

    Stevens response: No, I have a Juris Doctorate degree.

  167. Manuel Gomez

    @197 Dr. Tom Stevens, you were in fact campaign manager for Carl Person, seeking presidential nomination for the LP. He expelled you from his campaign after you promoted bestiality as a plank in his platform without his authorization.

    IPR covered this fiasco: http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2011/12/lp-pres-carl-person-fires-campaign-manager-apologizes-for-bestiality-comments/

    You also blogged about bestiality on your webspace, to which Person commented he felt you harmed his campaign.

  168. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 7

    Tim Doran wrote: Is this true about the Mont. County LP?

    Stevens response: Yes, Babb is active with the Montco LP and he promoted the Vote for Nobody campaign but just in case there is any question about it, Steve Scheetz, the Chair of the Montco LP (who lives in Bucks County) and the entire chapter did not get one signature for Gary Johnson or our statewide LP candidates and Scheetz was not one of the 84 volunteers who helped defend the petitions against the GOP challenge. In fact, Scheetz, who wore a Campaign for Liberty teeshirt to the last Bucks County LP meeting supported Ron Paul, attended the Ron Paul Rally in Philly instead of last year’s LPPA Annual Convention and is being aided by individuals who some believe were spys for the GOP during our petition defense. It is Scheetz and Babb who are running this alleged legitimate “workshop”. Do you see my problem with it now?

  169. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 9

    Mike Kane wrote: “Doctor Tom” became state chair

    Stevens response: I earned my Juris Doctorate degree and have the right to use “Dr.” both socially and professionally. Esq. is not a formal title for a lawyer but only a title for someone without any other title who in the 19th century were considered gentlemen. It disappoints me that Mike would put “Doctor Tom” in quotes.

  170. Lefty Danger Pistolero

    “So far, at least two of the PA county parties have arbitrary and capricious for determining who can be a member. ”

    One, actually. We’ve already had this discussion and you lost quite badly, Steve M. Give it a rest already and cast your spurious aspersions elsewhere.

  171. Mark Axinn

    Tom @ 198:

    I am sitting in my office with my Juris Doctor degree on the wall behind me and the damn thing is in Latin!

  172. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 10

    Steve P wrote: The Mont. County LP seems to be the best Libertarian group in the country. Their higher knowledge of libertarianism is impeccable compared to most. Kudos for standing up for what you believe in, although I do feel sorry that your PA party has been hijacked by an outsider named Tom Stevens.

    Stevens response: The “higher knowledge of libertarianism” of Montco LP members only leads to purity tests and the chasing away of new members. Ever wonder why the same people are leading the Montco LP with all those registered Libertarians in the county? A 5-person philosophy/street demonstration club does not a Libertarian Party make. I did not “hijack” the LPPA. I brought no friends from outside Pennsylvania to the Annual Convention. I was elected by the democratic choice of Pennsylvania LP delegates.

  173. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 199

    Manuel Gomez wrote: @197 Dr. Tom Stevens, you were in fact campaign manager for Carl Person, seeking presidential nomination for the LP. He expelled you from his campaign after you promoted bestiality as a plank in his platform without his authorization. You also blogged about bestiality on your webspace, to which Person commented he felt you harmed his campaign.

    Stevens response: Yes I was Campaign Manager for Carl Person. When Carl was asked by someone what was the list of victimless crimes he believed should be decriminalized, he placed bestiality on the list. This issue was never placed on his website. I did blog about this but nothing was done without Carl Person’s explicit authorization. When a shit-storm arose, Carl fired me to try to re-start his campaign. If you read his statement carefully, he apologizes for the diversion, not for the statements he made or his stand on the issue.

  174. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 30

    Ken Krawchuk wrote: On the other hand, in 2012 STEVENS DELIBERATELY DELETED ALL OF THE PARTY’S WEB RECORDS FOR THE LAST TEN YEARS! Then, to add insult to injury, he renamed the hollowed-out shell of the board e-mail list to be the “Atlas Snubbed Fan Group” in mockery of my new novel, Atlas Snubbed (www.AtlasSnubbed.com). I have no idea what this guy is thinking, why he does what he’s doing, or why. All I know is that if he were an agent provocateur, he’d be acting just the way he is. Perhaps it’s that age-old enmity that all Objectivists have for Libertarians? I don’t know. All I know is that all the party records are gone, and he’s using innuendo to malign THE most active and most successful chapter in the entire history of the Pennsylvania Libertarian Party.

    Stevens response: When I became Chair, I asked for the party archives from the Past Chair and the Past Secretary. Not a single document had been preserved. Not one! I then asked for a list of past chairs and state activities. No one had such a list. I started a major effort to recover party archives and made great progress in this regard. The Board of Directors authorized the deletion of two Yahoo Groups. All the documents in those groups were backed up or existed elsewhere. Ken Krawchuk refused to obey the directive of the Board and said “I decline”. I then took action to make sure the will of the Board of Directors was followed. That is my job as State Chair. Not only were no archives deleted but archives were recovered during my administration.

  175. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 36

    Q2Q wrote: Tom Stevens is an idiotic control freak. Everything he does is to promote himself at the expense of building a strong political organization for the members. He’s rather have a little club where he can be supreme poo-bah rather than a strong political party with an active membership.

    Stevens response: I am actually a mind-mannered fellow who has no interest in being a big fish in a small pond. I am confident enough in my leadership to recruit as many new activists as I can and to integrate them into the party. It is those with no leadership ability who fear new members who will vote them out in a second as long as there is a level playing field.

  176. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 42

    Q2Q wrote: Hell, this is the guy who removed an OP party member for celebrating Christmas.

    Stevens response: The Governing Board of the Objectivist Party did vote to expel an officer who promoted God and Christmas. Objectivist Party members pass no Objectivist purity test but when they accept an officership, there is a conflict in serving as a officer and publicly promoting God at Christmas.

  177. James Babb

    Thank you DOCTOR Tom Stevens for responding to some of your critics.

    @209

    “It is those with no leadership ability who fear new members who will vote them out in a second as long as there is a level playing field”

    You mean like the leadership of Northampton County LP?

    Now go blame that on somebody else, even though you are on record bragging about recruiting those members, submitting the new (unanimously approved) bylaws, and you are the county chair.

  178. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 52

    Thomas Knapp wrote: Real ones, or fake ones like the “state affiliates” you “organized” (read: Claimed existed and appointed friends who didn’t live in those states as “chairs” of) for the Boston Tea Party (right before trying to hold a non-bylaws-compliant “one affiliate, one vote” to have yourself nominated for president)?

    Stevens response: All the chapters of the Boston Tea Party recommended by me were real and led by residents who lived there with one exception of an individual who lived both in New York and the state in question. You, on the other hand, violated the bylaws of the Boston Tea Party, let the group die on the vine, left and then when others tried to pick up the pieces and pull the group back together, you couldn’t leave your baby alone and came back to criticize others trying to get the group back on track.

  179. Ed Reagan

    Q2Q wrote: Tom Stevens is an idiotic control freak.

    Stevens response: I am a self-important bullshit artist.

  180. Thomas L. Knapp

    @213,

    “You, on the other hand, violated the bylaws of the Boston Tea Party”

    I won’t deny the allegation until I know its particulars. In your opinion, how did I violate the bylaws of the Boston Tea Party?

  181. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 101

    James Babb wrote: The Executive Committee shall have the power to terminate the membership of any LPNC member without cause.” Would anyone here disagree the the author of this bylaw is paranoid and pathetic?

    Stevens response: The York LP and the Northampton LP bylaws (as well as other local county chapters) have similar, if not, identical provisions in their bylaws. The wording is less important than how they are implemented. The “without cause” language prevents long drawn-out judicial appeals which occurs when a membership is terminated for “reasonable cause”. The Executive Committee votes to terminate someone’s membership under the Northampton LP bylaws and no individual has ever been kicked out using this provision. The Northampton LP is thriving and only one person has not been permitted to join for more than justifiable reasons.

  182. Lefty Danger Pistolero

    @Be Rational (were you going for irony?)

    #170 “Every member of the LP PA should be an automatic member of the county group where he or she lives. The county and state LP groups should work together.”

    #177 “Membership should be inclusive and as automatic as possible. Combined PA and National memberships should be standard with automatic inclusion of local county membership … This should be the system – if there is a dues based membership. Otherwise, all registered LP voters should be considered automatic members of the PA LP and the local county LP.”

    From Libertarian Party (National) Bylaws and Convention Rules (excerpt):

    Article VI; Section 5 — “The autonomy of affiliate and sub-affiliate parties shall not be abridged by the National Committee or any other committee of the Party, except as provided by these Bylaws.”

    Pursuant to the Libertarian Party’s own Bylaws, we see that enacting such a top-down travesty is quite impossible, fortunately. Mr. Gomez was never being paranoid, he was being rational.

    #72 “The LP at all levels should be recruiting members, donors, candidates, activists, registered Libertarians, supporters and interested onlookers. We should be open to all.”

    All of these things are possible within York County’s amended Constitution and Bylaws, WITHOUT voting privileges. The only thing voters can do is elect members to Executive Board positions, control our funds, and nominate candidates. The end.

    #177 “You have refuted nothing. You have objected and whined, but not refuted. You cannot.

    However, you keep proving that the York County LP is a closed cult with your comments. Your chapter is closed to all outsiders – your board elects itself and only adds those it wants.”

    I have refuted all of this and more. Your speaking circuitously and denying cited sources of evidence does your argument no credit whatsoever. Furthermore, ad hominem has no place in a rational discussion. If you wish to discuss the YCLP’s new Constitution and Bylaws, please direct all inquires to me. I wrote them and, as such, am the must qualified to speak on them.

    I can explain every step of the process to you if you’re interested, and why each provision was carefully implemented and tied into the whole. Or, as is your wont, you can continue to cast defamatory aspersions further inculcating yourself into this fantasy you have created.

    I do not think it is the York County Libertarian Party which is the paranoid member of the argument. You seem to irrationally believe, without evidence, that we are out to hamstring ourselves and the party we conduct. Why? For someone who commands rationality, there seems to be very little to find in your invective.

  183. Manuel Gomez

    @217 the wording DOES matter, and the York LP bylaws DO NOT have similar or identical provisions.

    The Northampton bylaws are without question some of the most draconian bylaws in the entire state.

  184. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 214

    Ed Reagan wrote: Q2Q wrote: Tom Stevens is an idiotic control freak. Stevens response: I am a self-important bullshit artist.

    Stevens response: I did not write what Ed Reagan wrote. But now you might some insight why some county organizations don’t want him within 100 miles of their pro-liberty activities.

  185. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 219

    Manuel Gomez wrote: The Northampton bylaws are without question some of the most draconian bylaws in the entire state.

    Stevens response: Not draconian at all. In fact, they are some of the most open and welcoming in the state. LPPA members disenfranchised elsewhere come in as full voting members of the Northampton LP and are fully integrated without any purity tests. I can name 6 other chapters with identical provisions.

  186. Manuel Gomez

    @220 Dr. Tom Stevens that’s fine and well, but you certainly can’t knock others for less than curtsy behavior and posts.

    Your rants where you call political foes ‘jewish niggers’, ‘pig fucks’, ‘faggot ears’, and speak suggestively about thoughts of rape and murder preclude any such pontification from you.

  187. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 216

    Thomas L. Knapp wrote: I won’t deny the allegation until I know its particulars. In your opinion, how did I violate the bylaws of the Boston Tea Party?

    Stevens response: By letting the deadlines set forth in the bylaws pass without action while you were still in charge and then when others stepped in to rectify the situation, you claimed they were violating the deadlines set forth in the bylaws, which situation you caused.

  188. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 105

    MLP wrote: At least Thomas R Stevens hasn’t threatened to kill and rape over a disagreement like what is posted here http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ManhattanLibertarians/message/20908

    Stevens response: I can’t figure out the context of the statements referenced here from a post dated May 20, 2007. I do recall this woman made a formal accusation of sexual harassment against a party member. I can’t recall what my statement was in reaction to.

  189. Ed Reagan

    Re 217

    Tom Stevens wrote: The Northampton LP is thriving and only one person has not been permitted to join for more than justifiable reasons.

    Ed Reagan asks: Please list:

    1) All the candidates that the LPNC has run in the county on your watch

    2) All the pro-liberty events that have taken place in the county on you watch.

    3) Help me understand the majority of LPNC board meetings are be teleconference.

    4) Help me understand why the LPNC board meeting are not open the LPPA members to observe.

    5) Help me understandwhy you stole a member of the Chester County LP to istall as a board member on the LPNC board when the individual lives in Chester County? Sure seems link you needed a warm body to keep the membership at 12 to retain a board vote for you sock puppet LPNC committee.

  190. Ed Reagan

    Tom Stevens wrote: The Northampton LP is thriving and only one person has not been permitted to join for more than justifiable reasons.

    Ed Reagan asks: So holding you accountable for your use of fraud to advance yourself social and politically is a “justifible reason”?

    Tommy Boy you will be held accountable at the State Convention. Might as well start packing your carpet bags now.

  191. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 106

    Ed Reagan wrote: Though according to the NY Times he did tried hire a hitman to kill a rival in 1993.

    Stevens response: In 1993, I was President of the New York Young Republican Club and had announced my interest in seeking the GOP gubernatorial nomination. I was too libertarian and not socially conservative enough for many. For two years, a group of people worked to set up this story with the cooperation of the alleged victim who, to establish motive, publicly admitted to spreading rumors I had acted inappropriately with minors. I was arrested as noted and fought 10 months to expose the set-up. When their stories crumbled under pressure, all charges were dropped. I have no criminal record and never went to trial on any criminal charge. Yet political enemies still use the arrest against me without noting the outcome. In fact, my current political enemies are not unlike the ones who set me up in 1993.

  192. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 227

    Ed Reagan wrote: Tommy Boy you will be held accountable at the State Convention. Might as well start packing your carpet bags now.

    Stevens response: I may lose and if I do, I will devote my time to other pro-liberty activities but you will always be Ed Reagan and that you can never escape.

  193. Ed Reagan

    @220

    Stevens response: I did not write what Ed Reagan wrote. But now you might some insight why some county organizations don’t want him within 100 miles of their pro-liberty activities.

    Ed Reagan replies: I have been welcomed at every county meeting I have attended. The only person who has an issue of me attending is YOU.

    I love how you ban me from all the County Facebook and Meetup groups you rule over. Don’t worry the county groups tell me, Montco and Yotk when the meetings are. In fact most of them will be at the Montco event on Feb 16th. Why don’t you show up and debate Steve Scheetz?

  194. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 226

    Ed Reagan wrote: Help me understandwhy you stole a member of the Chester County LP to istall as a board member on the LPNC board when the individual lives in Chester County? Sure seems link you needed a warm body to keep the membership at 12 to retain a board vote for you sock puppet LPNC committee.

    Stevens response: No out of county LPPA members can count toward making up the 12 LPPA members needed for the Northampton LP State Representative to have a vote. I believe a Chester County LP member came over to us for a free laptop we were handing out, but I could be wrong about that.

  195. Ed Reagan

    Re: 221

    Stevens wrote: Not draconian at all. In fact, they are some of the most open and welcoming in the state. LPPA members disenfranchised elsewhere come in as full voting members of the Northampton LP and are fully integrated without any purity tests. I can name 6 other chapters with identical provisions.

    Ed Reagan replies: Than how come one of the county chairs said you stole one of his members to fill a hole in Northampton County?

  196. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 111

    Manuel Gomez wrote: Perhaps now folks will understand why Dr. Tom Stevens openly discourages any unmoderated discussion concerning his behaviors past and present; and why he and his lackeys discourage open discovery generally.

    Stevens response: It is just that I have found such threads time consuming and counterproductive so I have chosen instead to focus my time on party-building and not party-destroying but Jill asked me to weigh in and so I will. I am an open book.

  197. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 232

    Ed Reagan wrote: Than how come one of the county chairs said you stole one of his members to fill a hole in Northampton County?

    Stevens response: I cannot comment on what some County Chair said or why. But the person in question was waiting for an officership vacancy to occur in his county and when it didn’t materialize, he accepted an officership in the Northampton LP. No one can steal a person any more than someone can steal a vote. I told the County Chair in question that said individual was still interested in filling a vacancy there if one should occur.

  198. Ed Reagan

    Re 229

    Stevens wrote: I may lose and if I do, I will devote my time to other pro-liberty activities but you will always be Ed Reagan and that you can never escape

    Ed Reagan replies: Tom I will alwasy be the Ed Reagan that rallied the grass roots in Pennsylvania to rid ourselves of you.

    Tom the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

    I am not the one who has been exiled from every political organization I was involved with…oh wait I am sorry out needed to create a few and control them so thightly that you can;t be voted out.

    Now what was that you were you saying about liberty?

  199. MLP

    Dr tom stevens you are unfit for leadership. you think racist rants against asians and sexual inuendo are valid organizing tools?
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ManhattanLibertarians/message/20630?source=1&var=1&l=1

    I’ll only attend if Nic agrees to take off his clothes and hand out
    flyers in the nude. Not just topless, but completely nude.

    Jim,

    =========
    Jim,

    With Andrea, she has what every other woman has (I presume), except for
    Asian women who sport horizontal slants (I am told) but with Nic, I think we
    would need to evaluate whether what he presents
    would draw any additional crowds or drive them away.
    -
    -TRS—

  200. MLP

    Dr tom stevens you are unfit for leadership. you think racist rants against asians and sexual inuendo are valid organizing tools?
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ManhattanLibertarians/message/20630?source=1&var=1&l=1

    I’ll only attend if Nic agrees to take off his clothes and hand out
    flyers in the nude. Not just topless, but completely nude.

    Jim,

    =========
    Jim,

    With Andrea, she has what every other woman has (I presume), except for
    Asian women who sport horizontal slants (I am told) but with Nic, I think we
    would need to evaluate whether what he presents
    would draw any additional crowds or drive them away.
    -
    –TRS—

  201. Ed Reagan

    Re 261

    Stevens wrote: No out of county LPPA members can count toward making up the 12 LPPA members needed for the Northampton LP State Representative to have a vote. I believe a Chester County LP member came over to us for a free laptop we were handing out, but I could be wrong about that.

    Ed Reagan replies:
    I know members can be from other counties, and you need move your pawns around to keep you bare minimum county commitees afloat. Instead of play games moving people around how about organizing events in the counties to actually recuit new members.

    BTW Tom what is the current active PAID membership in the LPPA? Instead of making a smoke am mirrors number up how about producing a membership report like every other LPPA Chair before you. What ae you hiding? I love how you talk alwauy talk in percentages. Drop the shit and present some cole hard auditable numbers you unethical hack.

  202. MLP

    to 225 Dr tom stevens admits making the sexist racist statements how can you even defend this? i challenge the lppa to do something. this is exactly why i do not donate or support lppa activity because it seems Dr tom stevens has either pulled you all under his wing or you are afraid to do what is right by justice no one should have to endure such threats and rants about violence like what he subjected ny libertarians to

  203. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 112

    IDK quoted a post dated May 19, 2007 in which I allegedly wrote: “Andrea’s summary conclusions, illogical application of rules she never adopted and banning of Nic and my posts during her Nazi reign over this list triggered these recent attacks on her, and BOY do I feel better! If she were a member of the Rutgers Women’s Basketball Team, she’d be nothing more than a nappy-haired ho! And I also must admit I was wrong to criticize anyone who would sexually harass this bitch. The greater the harassment of her, the better, I say. Too bad you can’t censor me now. But you would love to, wouldn’t you? The list deteriorated under Andrea’s reign and she revealed herself to be a vindictive little hussy.”

    Stevens response: It’s hard to recall the situation and I may not have written it but I generally remember Andrea’s involvement in the Manhattan LP, her charges of harassment against a party member and then when we went to address her charges, she got upset with the Manhattan LP for taking up her complaint. The “nappy-haired ho” reference was to a news story at the time involving the Rutgers Women’s Basketball Team but I can’t recall the context of the cultural reference. I know I was objecting at the time to this women’s arbitrary deletion of posts made to an official list by Nic Leobold and myself, Manhattan LP members at the time. I will say that for someone to go back to check every message over 6 years posted to obscure Yahoo Groups shows a sick obsession I rarely see in individuals. But there is one person posting in this thread who has such an obsession with me and while I might consider it flattering in other contexts, I consider it a real threat to my physical safety in this context.

  204. MLP

    to 233 michael gomez i have never saw Dr tom stevens allow discussion until today. when he contacted me to deal with the york problem i asked he list the porblems in lppa forum to which he said no such discussion will be allowed that’s when i saw he deosn’t like any one to discuss but no one asked for his participation i just thought maybe cooler heads can gather but i guess not and thats no reason to tell everyone to be silent just because he doesn;t want bothered

  205. MLP

    to 240 i see you did post the stuff about harassment and sexual inuendo the list says so
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ManhattanLibertarians/message/20855?source=1&var=1&l=1

    From DrTomStevens@… Sat May 19 20:51:21 2007
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    From: DrTomStevens@…
    Subject: Giving Her What See Deserves
    X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=184210666; y=UhQYCooz7V1-TN0yWrx8U_myL9obMNrHEBVgQ_kj9-RAkyd9TbzEIjj4Z8A
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    Andrea’s summary conclusions, illogical application of rules she never
    adopted and banning of Nic and my posts during her Nazi reign over this list
    triggered these recent attacks on her, and BOY do I feel better!

    If she were a member of the Rutgers Women’s Basketball Team, she’d be
    nothing more than a nappy-haired ho!

    And I also must admit I was wrong to criticize anyone who would sexually
    harass this bitch. The greater the harassment of her, the better, I say.

    Too bad you can’t censor me now. But you would love to, wouldn’t you?

    The list deteriorated under Andrea’s reign and she revealed herself to be a
    vindictive little hussy.

    TRS

  206. MLP

    to 240 you made posts that seem to indicate threats against persons.. now you say you feel threatened? i see no one threatening you here it seems like a cop out be honest and assume responsibilty Dr tom stevens

  207. MLP

    to 244 you are something else Dr tom stevens. if you remember the context of one message from then then you must remember the context of all messages from then. please do the right thing and step down before real damage happens to reputation of lppa over what has already occurred under your leaderhsip

  208. MLP

    are you rebelcrusader2525 among other usernames Dr tom stevens? if so then you are the poster of the violent sexual rant posted above

  209. MLP

    i do not know ed regan. i am not ed regan. i am an organizer you propositioned to be in your lppa staff but i left after you instructed me to not post in lppa forums for fear of “””bad image””” that would scare new members and look at your history and controversy to. i am not pleased with what you have turned party into and many have stated they will not assist us until you step down and correct

  210. Ed Reagan

    Tom Stevens claims to be a resident of Philaldelphia. In a posting I read somewhere he stated roughly that he moved before the end of the year but for business reasons he will ofically move on 1/1/2013.

    Tom since do not seem to work for a law firm one must assume that you are in private practice. I am looking forward to seeing your Philadelphia Commercial Activity License the next time I see you.

    Also since you moved to Philadelphia on 1/1/2013, you have 60 days under commonwealth law to obtain a Pennsylvania drivers license and register your car in Pennsylvania. I look forward to seeing Pennsylvania tags and your Pennsylvania drivers license on or before the deadline of 3/1/2013.

    Keep in mind that Pennslvania have very strict insurance fraud laws, so be careful.

    Lastly doesn’t the PhillyLP require you to be resident of Philadelphia and registered to vote as a Libertarian to be a member of the PhillyLP? If you currently have a NY drivers license and have registered to vote in Pennsylvania this is called voter fraud. I shure hope you are not commiting voter fraud or insurance fraud.

    If you are truely a resident of Philadelphia, yo might want to get your ducks in a row legally.

  211. MLP

    i still suspect jim babb and montco have plans with Dr tom stevens. I do not see why Dr tom stevens would move into the backkyard of montco if the plan was not for a olive branch so to speak. maybe this was all in name of attention getting. still lppa has much work to do to restore good name of libertarians in pennsylvania. i warn montco not to cooperate with Dr tom stevens in any way if they care about saving the party in this state.

  212. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 120

    LPP or is it IDK or MLP: Whoever.

    Stevens response: The note was written to Blay Turnoff. The only time I will ever voluntarily be in this man’s presence again is at his funeral and then, only to make sure he is dead. He is an openly homophobic man who along with Gary Annoyan attacked my involvement in the party from the day after I get involved.

  213. Ed Reagan

    Re: 241

    Tom Stevens wrrote: Who is MLP and IDK? I suspect it is also Ed Reagan.

    Ed Reagan replies: No sock puppeting here. In fact I will be getting a copy of the IP address logs from the webmaster of this site later tonight. To see who the sock puppets are and to to see if you are posting from Queens, NY or Philadelphia, PA tonight ands every other time you posted to this site.

    Damn ain’t computer forensics a bitch

    Since you can not be trusted, we must verify.

    Sorry Tommy Boy

  214. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 248

    MLP wrote: i do not know ed regan. i am not ed regan

    Stevens response: Then who are you? Why don’t you identify yourself.

  215. MLP

    to 251 you call political foes “””faggots””” several times and “””jewish niggers””” and continue to post about political foes death in celebratory way. i don’t think you should do that as a leadership in lppa. why do lppa members allow this?

  216. MLP

    to 254 if you apologize for your conduct and for your racist rants i will tell you my name. you must first step down from lppa. with your record of violent threats and activity it is very wise to stay safe after you have already come n contact with me and know who i am through our first contact when you asked me to help with lppa and york. lou is aware and so is vern. unlike lou and vern i am fed up is only difference.

  217. MLP

    i am the one who must be careful i don’t take your violent possts as jokes Dr tom stevens. we are libertarians and should not resort to violent posts or actions to achieve our means. please agree and step down to save the good name of lppa. there is no excuse for the threats you have made against others you are a black cloud over libertarians in pa.

  218. Thomas L. Knapp

    @224,

    “By letting the deadlines set forth in the bylaws pass without action while you were still in charge”

    To what deadlines do you refer?

    “when I stepped in to try to rig the presidential nomination”

    There, fixed that for ya.

  219. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 132

    I never worked with the Ron Paul organization in any official capacity but I was a Political Consultant to an independent Ron Paul coalition that set up Meetup Groups for Ron Paul in cities throughout the county and then turned them over to local activists. This was before Ron Paul announced he would be a candidate for President in 2008. On Meetup, we used to have “friends” and as noted, I had 70 of them and one had up a profile picture of himself naked. He was a model and person living in Dublin. I didn’t know him.

  220. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 133

    This Christopher Cantwell, who put up this one-post blog is a convicted felon, who through my actions, did not secure sufficient petition signatures for a Libertarian Party Congressional Run and dropped out of the race.

    Recently Montco Minutes has his noted as a “Libertarian Comedian” who they say will get a $2,000.00 fee for appearing at this year’s LPPA Convention, even though they are not booking the “talent” for the upcoming convention.

  221. Ed Reagan

    Re: 260

    http://grylliade.org/drupal/node/962

    Subject: RE: [Paul_Power] Re: A Sensitive Issue & A Broad Coalition
    Date: 7/21/2007 10:23:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
    From: BowmanComputers
    Reply To:
    To: Paul_Power@yahoogroups.com
    Dr.Tom Stevens,
    You have got to be kidding. The only reason I took you off my meet-up group was because I didn’t feel that a fully naked man showing his cock or a meet-up group photo of you squeezing a young boys nipples was the appropriate thing to see on a Ron Paul meet-up board. Now I had no idea you were gay or jewish so blaming my actions on bigotry was quite out of line. Instead you can blame it on my conservatism.
    Please remove me from the coalition I never even asked to be a part of so I don’t have to deal with this ridiculous nonsense any further.

  222. Ed Reagan

    Re: 260

    Tom Stevens states: On Meetup, we used to have “friends” and as noted, I had 70 of them and one had up a profile picture of himself naked. He was a model and person living in Dublin. I didn’t know him.

    What about the “a meet-up group photo of you squeezing a young boys nipples “?

    Are you gonn claim you didn’t know him too?

  223. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 145

    Ed Reagan wrote: Tom Stevens blog formerly called “Liberty Lion” is now named “Rising Action”. This change was caused by Tom Stevens violating the trademarked name “Liberty Lion” which is owned by Doctor Mark Mitchell.

    Stevens response: I have been using Liberty Lion since 2007 as the name of my personal blog. At the last Board Meeting, Ed Reagan gleefully handed me proof of a service mark for “Liberty Lion” held by Mitchell and said I would be receiving a cease and desist letter in the mail. I did not think it necessary to have Liberty Lion service marked but the chances that the person service marking Liberty Lion in December, 2012 is an independent fellow not connected to Ed Reagan I think are slim. You will also note the references made by Ed Reagan to voter and insurance fraud. Although none have taken place, does anyone doubt his sick obsession with me will cause him to act in a manner to attack me criminally all because of an internal party dispute in the LPPA? Can you all see why this man has not been permitted to join the Northampton LP or why they unanimously voted NOT to endorse him for any office in 2013 or 2014?

  224. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 262

    Ed Reagan wrote: What about the “a meet-up group photo of you squeezing a young boys nipples “?

    Stevens response: I don’t recall any such photo.

  225. James Babb

    Re: 261 Tom Stevens

    “Recently Montco Minutes has his noted as a “Libertarian Comedian” who they say will get a $2,000.00 fee for appearing at this year’s LPPA Convention, even though they are not booking the “talent” for the upcoming convention.”

    This is a lie. FYI.

  226. MLP

    to 264 you seem to have a selective memory of some things. it is clear that you have made violent racist statements many times and you even admit it. for that i think you should be removed from lp activity as you are unfit.

  227. Ed Reagan

    Re: 261

    Yeah Mr. Cantwell will be at the NJLP Annual Convention on 3/16 and rumor has it her and many more of the Tom Stevens Fan Club will be in attendenc at the LPPA.

    In fact the State Convention will be one big Tom Stevens Roast.

    We will be busing in LPPA members from all over PA to rid ourselves of you.

    It is going one giant party. Just wished you picked a better place for your LPPA retirement party.

    Tom you truely do not realize how the bullshit you have spread has fertilized the grass roots in in the LPPA. Hell even the York guys are paying their dues.

    You can keep up you AstroTurf campaing on the LPPA_BB group and here but you only have one vote to cast Tom.

    I heard about your rant about the Chester County LP meeting last night. Ironically it was the older Chester County member who spoke VERY highly of Steve Scheetz and Jim Babb last night. Thank you for not only mobilizing the Montco and York counties but the old school died in then wool Liberarians are reactivating to get rid of you.

    You know Tom you did reactivate the LPPA, to first and foremost get rid of you.

    I and other will be making appearances at each and every county and regional group meeting in the Commonwealth to speak about Steve Scheetz for LPPA Chair. That is what you can do when you have real grass roots and not AstroTurf.

    I know becuse I am managing Steve Scheetz campaign for LPPA Chair.

    You really should not have sent that defamatory email about me in September, because karma is a real bitch. Ain’t she.

  228. MLP

    to 267 can you please post the contents of that email here? if this is true why is Dr tom stevens allowed to use force agianst political foes for years without a challenge? Dr tom stevens, at the request of many here will you please accept my offer to step down in honor of the good name of the lppa and libertarians in pa?

  229. Ed Reagan

    RE 264

    Tom as I have said before karma is a bitch.

    I would not have done that trademark search if you did not post the email below to the LPPA_BB list.

    Tom you reap what you sow, so don’t cry wolf when people do back to you what you did to them first.

    =====

    Violation Of Our Intellectual Property Rights
    Posted By: rebelcrusade… rebelcrusade… Send Email
    Fri Jan 4, 2013 7:22 pm |
    Options View Source
    Use Fixed Width Font
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    Greg Teufel, Legal Action Committee Chair, submitted the following report to the
    Board of Directors of the Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania on December 1, 2012.

    Ed Reagan, an LPPA member living in Northampton County, is currently using our
    mark by maintaining a Meetup Group named “Berks County Libertarian Party”. This
    illegal use of our trademark has been reported to the Legal Team at Meetup and
    appropriate action will be taken to protect our mark.

    Greg Teufel’s Legal Action Committee Report:

    “It is important for the Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania to maintain and
    defend rights it may have in a mark that has value and to be vigilant against
    infringement generally. The State Chair holds the opinion that the words
    “Libertarian Party”, “Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania” and the name of all
    local County Committees, Regional Committees and proposed local chartered
    affiliates must be protected but the word “libertarian” in most circumstances
    cannot be defended as a service mark or trade mark because of its general usage
    to describe a philosophical perspective and ideology. If an entity other than
    the trademark owner uses a mark, the mark’s ability to function as an indicator
    of source is diminished. For this reason, all third-party uses of a mark should
    be licensed, and monitored carefully. Unlicensed uses, or unmonitored
    third-party licensing, can result in a finding that a mark has been abandoned.
    Trademark infringement also diminishes the source-identifying capabilities of
    marks. When marks are appropriated unlawfully by unlicensed third parties,
    consumers are likely to become confused regarding the source or origin of goods
    or services. Therefore, trademark owners should take steps to discover, and
    prosecute, adverse users. A trademark owner’s failure to prosecute known
    infringers of a mark, may result in a finding of abandonment of trademark
    rights. The State Chair has been vigilant in monitoring the unauthorized use of
    our marks on social media sites and has been acting to defend our marks since he
    was elected Chair. If any LPPA members observe any infringement of our marks,
    please bring the situation to the attention of the Legal Committee and the State
    Chair as soon as possible.”

  230. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 166

    Ed Reagan’s many charges against me filed with the Judicial Committee were all dismissed with prejudice.

    The Board of Directors’ meeting on January 26th was adjourned unanimously after all business on the Agenda was completed. The Montgomery County Representative and the York County Representative, both voting members of the Board, did not object to the adjournment.

  231. MLP

    to 269 i recall he told me and lou to make a meetup for berks cumberland and york as ways to meet libertarians to take over uncooperative groups in those areas. its ironic he then challenges regan for something he himself has done across pa. and you still haven’t answered for your vioent racist rants Dr tom stevens

  232. MLP

    to 271 can michael gomez or moncto reps verify this? Dr tom stevens please address the racist violent statements you have made as well. will you accept my earlier offer as a solution? i will go to the press next as a resort to save the lppa. the rep and dems oppo teams as well.

  233. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 265

    Jim Babb says: “Recently Montco Minutes has his noted as a “Libertarian Comedian” who they say will get a $2,000.00 fee for appearing at this year’s LPPA Convention, even though they are not booking the “talent” for the upcoming convention.”

    This is a lie. FYI.

    Stevens response: Let’s see who the liar is?

    Montgomery County Libertarian Committee
    Monthly Meeting Minutes
    Tuesday, January 8, 2013

    Attendees:
    – Steve Scheetz, Chair
    – Ken Krawchuk, Secretary
    – Jim Babb, Troublemaker
    – Richard Schwarz, Troublemaker
    – Darren Wolfe
    – Marc Cooper
    – Jon Reed
    – Steve Piotrowski, Troublemaker

    Chris Cantwell
    – Libertarian Comedian
    – Want him at the LPP Convention
    – Approve $2,000 fee

    Thanks to Jim & Steve & Richard for bringing the beer!

    Adjourned 9:24 PM EST

  234. Ed Reagan

    RE 271

    Nice parliamentary procedure trick there Tom, we won’t let it happen again.

    So you blocked me this time from getting the board from investigating you, since the judicail committee had no authority to remove a member.

    I and Bill Sloane talked for about a half an hour the other night, and he detailed exactly how I should proceed.

    Isn’t it funny that I am getting advice from inside the board of the organization you claim to be the leader of?

    It speaks volumes that the people closest to you are the ones who are helping me.

  235. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 272

    Nick Liberty. I am very sorry you chose to leave active involvement in the LPPA. Certainly I never called for the formation of groups to undermine existing groups in the LPPA. Berks is now organized but Cumberland is not. There were two Meetup and Facebook groups formed for York and Montgomery County but those were groups to support Gary Johnson since those two county LP organizations did not get signatures for Johnson, did not defend our petitions from the GOP challenge and in Montgomery’s case, did not even support Johnson for President. If you wish to go to the press to tell them about statements I posted on a New York list 6 years ago, feel free to do so.

  236. MLP

    to 277 i was told by you that the groups were uncooperative never told that they didn’t support johnson. i contacted york and an individual who i will not mention offered me bumper stickers and signs for johnson. i made this test for you and lou and now you attack me for being loyal. again I say please answer to your racist violent rants which are my real reason for being here. i will go to the press and don’ t think that time is a defense Dr tom stevens bad is bad and force is force they do not expire simply because you don’t want to answer to it.

  237. James Babb

    RE: 274

    Yes, “wanting” him at the LPPa convention, is not the same as “booking” him (as Tom falsely stated).

    If Tom hadn’t blocked all new business from the last board meeting, the board would have heard the motion to instruct the convention committee to give him a slot.

    If he can’t be trusted to tell the truth on insignificant details, why should anyone trust him at all.

    I must say though, this is the most interest anyone has shown in the LPPa in years. Thanks DOCTOR Tom!

  238. Ed Reagan

    Re 274

    Yeah those minutes are a lie, because I was at that meeting and not listed as an attendee.

  239. Ed Reagan

    Re: 277

    Stevens wrote: Certainly I never called for the formation of groups to undermine existing groups in the LPPA.

    Really Tom you just did that with the PhillyLP and Montco and York have been warned by many members of the eastern PA county and regional groups that you are planning to do the same thing to Montco and York.

    Do you think we don’t get reports about you Tom, like I said the grass roots are strong and sprouting new grass every day.

    Go ahead and live with you denial, the people who you think are the closest to you are the ones who tell us the most. We have eyes and ears everywhere.

  240. MLP

    to 277 i was aware of the york problem but i cautiously helped you and you knew i wanted to help them rather then replace them. shutting down discussion was not my plan and you retaliate by posting damaging remarks. you have not changed. Dr tom stevens you continue to initiate force and fraud in the lp. would you please step down as requested by several posters here?

  241. Warren Redlich

    That the LP consistently gives attention and power to disasters like Stevens shows the problems the LP has.

    I can only say that I’ve dealt on and off with Stevens for roughly 8 years. There has never been a good moment.

    It’s not just about Stevens. It really is a reflection on the LP (and maybe on politics in general). The LPNY appears ready to endorse Kristin Davis for mayor, and the national LP had no problem working with Roger Stone.

    This failure to do basic research on people is certainly not limited to the LP, but it seems to happen in greater proportion.

  242. MLP

    to 277 both lou and andy agreed with me and my stance. you were the only one along with maybe one more person who planned to do meetups in the counties mentioned. when i brought up the legal risk you said only if asked to be removed. clearly that means you knew the inappropriate way you were handling things with the counties mentioned.

  243. MLP

    to 284 yes that is my point. how can someone who threatens with statements of violence racial slurs and sexual harassment be in a position of leadership. how can he even be in lppa is a good question Dr tom stevens admits all this is factual.

  244. MLP

    for the record I was not aware of Dr tom stevens violent postings and sexual harassment or racist rants when we first worked together. i guess we all learn as we go. but i did immediately end our working relationship when this came to light. former secretary lppa vern etzel is aware as well but not as vocal though i have asked him to stand for truth and the good name of lppa

  245. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 281

    Ed Reagan wrote: Go ahead and live with you denial, the people who you think are the closest to you are the ones who tell us the most. We have eyes and ears everywhere.

    Stevens response: Reminds me of the KGB and East Germany – “eyes and ears everywhere”. So, all I can say is that power has never been important to me. All I care about is promoting liberty and if you pack the convention and elect your own Scheetz as State Chair, then the LPPA will be what it will be and I will probably move on to other pro-liberty activities because the vehicle is only secondary to my goal of helping our nation achieve freedom and to stopping our slide towards socialism.

  246. Mark Axinn

    Ed @ 284–

    Caputo was Paladino’s (R, NY) campaign manager in 2010 (when Warren was LP candidate for Governor). His most (in)famous moment was threatening to punch Fred Dicker (Albany bureau chief for NY Post) in the nose!

    When was he connected to the LP?

    The others I obviously know about.

    BTW, thanks for the recommendation in Del. Water Gap. I will check it out at some point.

  247. MLP

    as if Dr tom stevens racist sexist violent comments were not enough he is still listed as chair of governing board of Objectivist Party!
    http://www.objectivistparty.us/6485.html

    what an embarrassment. Dr tom stevens why won’t you accept my deal to step down save face for the lppa and yourself too many others here have said the same

  248. MLP

    Dr tom stevens what about your comments about driving a political foe to his death celebrating that the “””pond scum””” was “””burning in hell””” for not “””remaining your friend”””. you said if he “””remained your friend you’re confident he would still be alive””””. does that sound like coercive mafia talk or what??????
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ManhattanLibertarians/message/20307?source=1&var=1&l=1

    “””If he had remained as my friend and in the Queens LP, I am fairly certain he
    would be alive today. Instead, he went over to the dark side and kept company
    with thieves, pigs and sub-humans. Staheli then lied and made up stories
    about me to please his new keepers.

    Then out of shame at the recognition of his betrayals, he committed suicide.”””
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ManhattanLibertarians/message/20317?source=1&var=1&l=1

    how can any normal person not be REPULSED by Dr tom stevens????

  249. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 292

    MLP writes: what an embarrassment. Dr tom stevens why won’t you accept my deal to step down

    Stevens response: I decline your “deal”. I have no idea what “deal” you are referring to except possibly your promise not to go to the press if I resign. Promising some negative consequence if you do not get someone to do as you say is criminal extortion. Look it up. So if you mention it one more time, we will know your true intention.

  250. MLP

    to 293 but that is not true. the deal is if you step down i reveal my identity as you have requested. remember you are the one with the admitted history of violent racist sexual attacks not me or anyone else here.

  251. MLP

    to 294 but that is not true. the deal is if you step down i reveal my identity as you have requested. remember you are the one with the admitted history of violent racist sexual attacks not me or anyone else here.

  252. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 294

    MLP wrote: you are the one with the admitted history of violent racist sexual attacks

    Stevens response: Be careful MLP. I don’t think it is accurate to say I have admitted to “a history of violent racist sexual attacks” on people. To be clear, if that is the “deal” you offer, then I formally reject it. Who cares who you really are? I know you are an internet troll hiding your identity behind MLP, which also happens to be the abbreviation for the Manhattan Libertarian Party but maybe you are Nick Liberty or someone else. If so, it doesn’t matter to me.

  253. Mark Axinn

    Tom @ 292–

    As Secretary of the Manhattan Libertarian Party, which I always call MLP, I noticed that too.

    BTW, we are NOT an obscure yahoo list!!!

    Mr. MLP–

    Since your identity is not disclosed, do you mind changing it to some other initials?

  254. MLP

    to 296 you asked for my identity and i respond with what i consider agreeable terms of exchange in value. I didn’t request any personal gain. i’m not the only person who has asked for you to step down here. are you accusing the entire thread of extortion? what a scheister. no wonder lou refused to partner with you in nj.

  255. MLP

    to 298 any future posts using the handle MLP will not be from me. i accept your request. please accept my apology for any confusion.

  256. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 298

    MLP wrote: what a scheister. no wonder lou refused to partner with you in nj.

    Stevens response: Your use of the word “scheister” is problematic. Lou never refused to partner with me in New Jersey. Why don’t you ask him. I was never involved in New Jersey in any capacity.

  257. LPP

    to 251 you are being untruthful Dr tom stevens.
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ManhattanLibertarians/message/20219?source=1&var=1&l=1

    you used terms “””pig fuck””” along with “””jewish nigger””” to attack your political foes during disagreements. the proof is there. you wrote the “””note””” as you called it

    Pig Fuck,

    Your ceaseless postings and rants, almost daily against myself, the Queens
    LP, Clifton, Axinn etc., no matter what the thread is actually about, is in my
    opinion harassment and proves you are a “sick fuck”.

    Saying you are one sick fuck is only the tip of the “iceberg” (not a Jewish
    word but often confused for one) regarding your mental condition. Everyone is
    already making up their own mind in that regard.

    Finally, I have been elected THREE times to represent the Manhattan LP. I
    have nothing else to prove. No one foisted me on the State Committee except
    the Manhattan LP members themselves.

    End of story. But I am sure you will continue to repeat your story over and
    over until some new people who weren’t around actually start to believe it.

    As Nic might say, stop acting like a Jewish Nigger!

    TRS

  258. Warren Redlich

    @Mark Axinn (290):
    “When was [Caputo] connected to the LP?”

    Caputo is connected to Kristin Davis. Her campaign manager is a Stone/Caputo operative and was on Paladino’s payroll (managed by Caputo) during the 2010 campaign.

  259. LPP

    to 302 you recall lou begging you do not involve yourself in lackawanna and your response was to try to hitch on montco berks cumberland then york as safety net to build your own base. lou was not a choir boy but he was more restrained than you have been i give him that.

  260. LPP

    jill asked Dr tom stevens to respond to the posts here. he has responded and admitted guilt by acknowledging the posts were his. he has made racist violent even sexually based verbal attacks over the years when confronted by political foes. i urge caution with Dr tom stevens as chair of lppa. as jill said he is a dangerous loose cannon that has harmed the lp is also harming the lppa.

  261. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 306

    LPP wrote: you recall lou begging you do not involve yourself in lackawanna

    Stevens response: We still don’t know who LPP is but I have no recollection of Lou ever begging or asking me not to involve myself in Lackawanna and I have no idea where Lackawanna is. Simply didn’t happen.

  262. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 307

    LPP wrote: he has responded and admitted guilt

    Stevens response: I have no guilt nor regret. In the context of anti-gay homophobic harassment and the circumstances of a particular incident which occurred in 2007, I responded in what I felt was an appropriate manner. Why doesn’t someone post something inappropriate I wrote during my service as LPPA Chair. That might be more relevant.

  263. LPP

    to 309 first you said you were unsure the posts were yours. then you said you were unsure of the context. now you accept full responsibility for making the racist violent sexually harassing statements. it is a shock you have no regrets of statements wishing someone to die and be raped. its also a shock you have no regrets of calling a political foe a “””jewish nigger””” i see no valid context for such verbal attacks. you Dr tom stevens are reprehensible

  264. Mark Axinn

    Warren @ 305–

    Kristin’s campaign manager will be (surprise!) Andrew Miller.

    You and I are obviously aware of the Stone connection and relationships between the parties; I just don’t see Caputo in the picture any more and was wondering about him.

    As far as LPNY endorsing Davis for Mayor, right now there are no other viable candidates. Randy Credico already dropped out of the race and Carl Person has very little support.

    But the nominating convention is still two months away and lots can happen by then.

    This is probably not relevant to this LPPA article which certainly has enough drama already. I guess eventually we will have an article on the 2013 NYC Mayor selection, but it’s too soon for that.

  265. Mark Axinn

    Clarification on my post @ 311.

    Randy Credico dropped out of seeking the LP nomination for NYC Mayor; he is still a candidate for the Democratic nomination.

  266. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 311

    Mark Axinn wrote: As far as LPNY endorsing Davis for Mayor, right now there are no other viable candidates. Randy Credico already dropped out of the race and Carl Person has very little support. But the nominating convention is still two months away and lots can happen by then. This is probably not relevant to this LPPA article which certainly has enough drama already.

    Stevens response: Sure, it’s relevant. Everything is relevant when I am the issue. I still maintain a law office in New York State until I am admitted to the Pennsylvania Bar. I am still the Political Director of the Libertarian Party of Queens County that endorsed Kristin Davis for the LP’s Mayoral Nomination over Carl (The Cat’s Meow) Person.

    Roger Stone, Kristin Davis and Andrew Miller were all on the same side as myself and Sam Sloan where Redlich was concerned. Kristin Davis and Andrew Miller both recently spoke to the Queens LP. Roger Stone, who is sponsoring the Libertarian Campaign College in Ft. Lauderdale, is a mutual friend and he asked the Pennsylvania LP and the Queens LP to co-sponsor his event, which was done. It is all a web of intrique with more layers than an onion!

  267. Warren Redlich

    “Roger Stone, who is sponsoring the Libertarian Campaign College in Ft. Lauderdale, is a mutual friend and he asked the Pennsylvania LP and the Queens LP to co-sponsor his event, which was done.”

    An event that so far does not appear to be scheduled, and which is missing from the local Libertarian meetup groups here in Florida.

    In other words, a fictional event.

  268. Steve M

    170 i am not supporting Tom Stevens or apposing him. I am apposing unfair play and a lynch mob mentality.

    171 try using the last name Stephen Meier and then look for as I said earlier for Fremont CA.

    if you did you would see this report.

    Non-Federal Receipts “Exempt From Limits”

    MEIER, STEPHEN
    FREMONT, CA 94536
    MRA TEK LLC

    LIBERTARIAN ACTION SUPER PAC
    09/19/2012 500.00 12940786301

    Total Soft Money: 500.00

    Contributions to Political Committees

    MEIER, STEPHEN
    FREEMONT, CA 94536
    MRA TEK LLC

    PHILLIES, GEORGE DAVID JOSEPH
    VIA PHILLIES 2008
    12/26/2006 250.00 27980031748
    12/30/2006 1000.00 27980031748
    01/18/2008 1000.00 28931164807

    MEIER, STEPHEN
    FREMONT, CA 94536

    WRIGHTS, ROGER LEE
    VIA WRIGHTS FOR PRESIDENT 2012
    12/27/2011 500.00 12030731771

    MEIER, STEPHEN
    FREMONT, CA 94536
    MRA TEK

    LIBERTY FOR AMERICA POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE
    08/22/2011 500.00 12970346367
    09/08/2012 500.00 12972541719

    MEIER, STEPHEN
    FREMONT, CA 94536
    SELF

    LAMONT, EDWARD M
    VIA NED LAMONT FOR SENATE
    10/24/2006 250.00 27020272760

    MEIER, STEPHEN F.
    FREMONT, CA 94536
    MRA TEK LLC

    BADNARIK, MICHAEL
    VIA BADNARIK/CAMPAGNA 2004
    05/30/2004 1000.00 25991020854
    11/02/2004 1000.00 25970676945

    MEIER, STEPHEN MR.
    FREMONT, CA 94536
    MEIER RIPPIN L.L.C.

    NOLAN, GARY P.
    VIA GARY NOLAN FOR PRESIDENT
    10/26/2003 250.00 24990653439

    MEIER, STEPHEN MR.
    FREMONT, CA 94536
    MRA TEK LLC

    NOLAN, GARY P.
    VIA GARY NOLAN FOR PRESIDENT
    05/25/2004 250.00 24961975060

    MEIER, STEPHEN F
    FREMONT, CA 94536
    MRA TEK LLC

    BADNARIK, MICHAEL
    VIA BADNARIK FOR CONGRESS
    09/22/2005 500.00 26930227248

    BARR, BOB
    VIA BARR 2008 PRESIDENTIAL COMMITTEE
    07/12/2008 450.00 28992160508
    09/04/2008 450.00 28993922794

    MEIER, STEPHEN F.
    FREMONT, CA 94536
    MEIER RIPPIN LLC

    LIBERTARIAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE, INC.
    10/28/2003 500.00 24971653008
    04/13/2004 250.00 24961709799
    08/14/2006 250.00 27990344630
    09/25/2006 250.00 27930997986

    MEIER, STEPHEN F.
    FREMONT, CA 94536
    MRA TEK LLC

    LIBERTARIAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE, INC.
    07/09/2007 250.00 27990654994
    06/17/2008 250.00 28991904638

    MEIER, STEPHEN F.
    FREMONT, CA 94536
    RETIRED

    JOHNSON, GARY EARL
    VIA GARY JOHNSON 2012 INC
    12/28/2011 1000.00 12951393027
    04/19/2012 250.00 12971241863
    05/01/2012 250.00 12952203806
    05/18/2012 500.00 12952203806
    06/04/2012 500.00 12971799537
    07/19/2012 500.00 12972065524
    09/01/2012 1000.00 12954465822
    10/23/2012 900.00 12962897516

    MEIER, STEPHEN F. MR.
    FREMONT, CA 94536
    MRA TEK LLC

    LIBERTARIAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE, INC.
    05/21/2012 500.00 12952189940

    MEIER, STEPHEN MR.
    FREMONT, CA 94536
    MRA TEK

    PAUL, RON
    VIA RON PAUL 2008 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN COMMITTEE
    01/08/2008 1000.00 28931485867

    Total Contributions: 16050.00

  269. Steve M

    LPP it apparently wasn’t my face book account you were looking at. So how long have you been an internet stalker?

  270. Stephen VanDyke

    @318: Thanks for being a solid financial backer of libertarian campaigns. I was a part of Badnarik’s web team in 2004 and just wanted to say thanks for the support you gave.

    If you’re ever looking to fund, I’ll gladly bend your ear you with my desires.

    @SQUABBLERS: this comment thread doesn’t impress anyone, least of all potential donors.

    I’m not sure what *anyone* is attempting to accomplish here after 300+ vitriol-filled remarks, but I have a feeling a lot of you are going to regret what you’re writing here when the next campaign kicks off and contributions are flatlining because someone Googled your name and it doesn’t look all that professional (or even funny).

    @Warren: I’m sure you’re thrilled to host and participate in such drama on IPR (pageviews, huzzah), but dude… Where’s the beef?

  271. Andy

    Stephen VanDyke said: “If you’re ever looking to fund, I’ll gladly bend your ear you with my desires.”

    Whatever happened to the $10,000 in donations that was supposed to pay for Liberty Mix, and why did Liberty Mix never happen?

  272. Stephen VanDyke

    @Andy:

    That project did not materialize as it should have due to several reasons I won’t get into here.

    You can also go ahead and fault me for raising nearly $1M for Badnarik’s Campaign and he never became president. Or $250K for Peirce’s campaign and he never became governor of Ohio.

    Let’s focus on what’s ahead and learn from what has passed (wins *and* fails).

    PS- where’s your resume so I can return the favor and kick your teeth in over all your failures?

  273. Stephen VanDyke

    @Andy

    Let me say this about LibertyMix: one day I’ll launch a new and useful project there, and then a lot of do-nothing haters are going to be ultra-pissed because even after six years of…

    …it STILL has AMAZING name recognition.

    //keep “calling me out,” I ain’t even mad

  274. Erik Viker

    The state chair should not be important enough to warrant having a debate between people willing to do the job. A state chairmanship does not require debate skills and charismatic visionary posturing. A state chair should do the things required of the position in the LPPA bylaws, and thereby support people who want to promote Libertarian principles in public policy.

    Attention Steve Scheetz: your rival is already interacting on this website, so you could stage your “debate” right here. We’ll read your words, and Tom’s words, and decide which of you (or neither) might be the person we want signing state documents and running meetings. And it’ll save us all from a bunch of windy little speeches.

  275. Ed Reagan

    @289

    Tom Stevens wrote: Reminds me of the KGB and East Germany – “eyes and ears everywhere”.

    Ed Reagan replies: Actually Tom, I have a TS clearance, and have done many projects for the U.S. government including work for the US versions ??????? ??????????????? ????????????? that you mentioned above., the KGB ceased to exist after 1991. I think you may want to update your references the replacement agengy is ?????? ??????? ???????? Sluzhba Vneshney Razvedki also known as the SVR.

    My entire career I have been building crisis management plans, enterprise business continuty plan, continuity of coperations plans, continutity of governement plans. These plans are designed to allow for the smooth transition of mission critical functions in the event of any loss of key vendors, personnel or facilites.

    So setting up reduncancy is part of what I do. Redudant facilites, cross-trained personnel, even complete opertations that will assume the functions of an organization that is impacted by an event or even overtaken on purpose.

    Tom I had 11 cliensts in the World Trade Center, all of who would have been able to execute trades and options contracts the next day, if not sooner. The limiting factor was the destruction of the AT&T and Verizon telecommuncations infrastructure in lower Manhatten, this is why trading did not resume until later in the week.

    I then spent the next few years working in Washington, DC area building Continuity of Operations Plans for that little five sided building across the river from DC. I and sure you know of the bunker under the Greenbriar Resort where Congress would continue work if we were attacked by the Soviet Union. Well it was decomisioned and declassified. When 9/11 happened it became neccessary to have alternate facilites for the legislative branch to operate from in-case the Capitol building was attacked. I assisted with the development of that alternate facility and how to activate it and move the entire legislative function of the US government to an secure alternate facility.

    You mentioned the KBG in your original post, I did not do work for them. I did however do work on a contract basis for a company that does provide intelligence services as part of their service offerings. The are currently known as Acedemi, and formerly Blackwater USA. You are more than welcome to ask to see my Blackwater Alumni card at the next LPPA board meeting or county LP meeting we bump into each other at.

    Tom do you know what function creep is? It is when a tool or skill is develped to solve one problem and the it is repurposed for differen problem. This is one of the key functions of In-Q-Tel, the not for profit organization venture capital firm run by the CIA. They fund technologies that can be repurposed. Their most publically visible one was the investment in a company called Keyhole, a satellite mapping company. Keyhole was acquired by Google and we got Google Earth, I am sure the version he CIA got has way more features.

    So let me get to my point. I have certain skill sets that were deceloped in my work life that can be applied to elsewhere. Specifically intellegence gathering skills, a decentralized approach to building organizations and most importantly building alternate organization to take the place of existing organizations.

    This ain’t my first rodeo Tom.

    If you doubt anything I said above, feel free to check out my LinkedIn profile and read what my clients have said about me and my capabilties. http://www.linkedin.com/in/edreagan/

    I have read a lot about you, while doing me intel gathering. Unfortuatly yhe only person I can find that has anything good to say about you, is you. Can you please direct me to someplace where I can read what others have said about all the successful things you have accomplished in your life. I want a third party perpective, other than yo writing about yourself in the third party.

    Thanks for providing links so that we all can see the positive things others are saying about you. Because quite frankly I am not finding any.

  276. Ed Reagan

    Sorry for the ???s in my pevious post, I was not aware that this site did not support Cyrillic characters.

  277. Ed Reagan

    Re: 310

    Tom that is bcause you have actually learned to only say them verbally, as not to leave an audi trail like you did in the past. Thanks for proving that Neanderthals do eventually evolve into Humans.

  278. Ed Reagan

    Erik @ 326

    Erik said: “A state chair should do the things required of the position in the LPPA bylaws, and thereby support people who want to promote Libertarian principles in public policy. ”

    Erik then why does Tom Stevens in his role as the LPPA Chair and chair of my county LP, publiclly and roudy state that Mr. Reagan will never recieve he LP’s endorsement as a candidate in 2013 or 2014.

    I support Libertarian principles, and want to run pubic office, but the LPPA chair has systematically block, banned and censored me on the LPPA_BB list, all the Facebook pages he controls including the LPPA’s facebook page, and all of the Meet-up groups that he has started or worm his way into using the trademark to use the name “Libertarian Party” and/or the LPs logo.

    So much for Tom Stevens being a principled Libertarian. Tom Stevens pushes awat principled Liertarians that dare ask one question of Tom.

  279. Be Rational

    @218 Lefty Danger Pistolero

    You’ve done it again. You have both proven and admitted to exactly what I’ve been saying:

    The York County LP group in PA is a paranoid, exclusive oligarchy where the board of directors re-elects itself and participants, donors, activists and other would-be members are not allowed to actually join, vote or have any say in the administration and management of the group, or the selection of candidates, or selection of its leaders. In other words, its a cult.

    According to you, LDP:

    “All of these things are possible within York County’s amended Constitution and Bylaws, WITHOUT voting privileges. The only thing voters can do is elect members to Executive Board positions, control our funds, and nominate candidates. The end.”

    You see there Lefty … you admitted it and proved it … your group is closed entirely. No one except the board may elect the board. Nice little paranoid, self-perpetuating, personality based cult.

    Yes, you did. You admitted it: … ” WITHOUT VOTING PRIVILEGES” you said.

    And you also admitted that only the board may elect the board – itself.

    Only the board may manage party funds.

    Only the board may nominate candidates.

    Now, a powerful board might be fine for day to day operations, if it is subject to regular election or replacement by all County Libertarians, but …

    Only the board may elect the board.

    Wow. A permanent dictatorship.

    Yes the Northhampton county cult may be the same or worse as your York County cult, and there may be several other county cults in the PA LP, but that doesn’t make things better, it makes it that much worse.

    The PA LP should set up its dues structure so that dual membership is automatic by selling only dual memberships. they should also make an effort to contact any National only members to get them to donate and thereby become members of the PA LP.

    Every member of the PA LP or the National LP should automatically be voting members of the county LP where they live.

    There is nothing in the National LP bylaws to prevent an open, rational, joint membership system. And there is certainly nothing in the National LP bylaws that requires, recommends, suggests or even hints at having closed personality cults in place of open County LP groups.

    Open up your county groups PA LP. There is no reason to protect County LP leaders from being replaced by a vote of all Libertarian Party members in each county – except, of course, the paranoid fear of outsiders.

  280. Mark Axinn

    Erik @ 326 wrote:
    “The state chair should not be important enough to warrant having a debate between people willing to do the job.”

    I respectfully disagree. It’s a very important job, although it may depend on the state and the persons involved as to whether it merits debates, etc.

    While there are many examples I can point to, I will just pick one: Ohio, to your immediate west. Kevin Knedler has done a superb job building that organization which only had two or three chpaters when he started and now has ten or more active chapters. The Ohio LP model is a spectacular model for all states to emulate, and it is in no small part due to the excellent work of its state chair.

    I picked Ohio and Kevin as jut one example; fortunately for the LP there are many, many more hardworking jerks, oops state chairs, trying to grow their organizations.

  281. Mark Axinn

    Follow up to 333:

    I know you were talking about the role of the state chair in PA, but I think my comments apply equally to LPPA as to every other state affiliate. Without a good person at the helm herding the cats and making sure the liberty ball is rolling in the right direction, which cannot happen without the hard work of many other people too, the affiliate lanquishes and does not grow.

  282. Lefty Danger Pistolero

    #338 “You see there Lefty … you admitted it and proved it … your group is closed entirely. No one except the board may elect the board. Nice little paranoid, self-perpetuating, personality based cult.”

    This is an entirely false assumption. I have already proven it so. Once again, ad nauseum, I will outright reject this false assertion with factually documented source material, available to all:

    YCLP Bylaws — “ARTICLE IV: MEMBERSHIP
    Any individual endorsing the principles of the YCLP may become and remain a member
    subject to the provisions of the Bylaws.”

    The Bylaws list the method for becoming a member — it is NOT exclusive. It is a process. It’s all very scary, I’m sure. We’ve heard not a single complaint from anyone who actually attends these meetings (the people whose opinions actually matter), of course. Everyone was quite excited to get started.

    “And you also admitted that only the board may elect the board – itself.

    Only the board may manage party funds.

    Only the board may nominate candidates.

    Now, a powerful board might be fine for day to day operations, if it is subject to regular election or replacement by all County Libertarians, but …

    Only the board may elect the board.

    Wow. A permanent dictatorship. ”

    This is an interesting bit of fiction you have going on here. There are two different boards: the Executive Board (our three officers) and the Board of Directors (our membership). The Board of Directors is principally four times larger than the Executive Board, and soon to grow. This was modeled after the LPPa’s structure directly. If you have a problem please submit your proposed changes to the LPPa Bylaws at convention.

  283. Erik Viker

    Mark Axin at 334, if you go read the LPPA bylaws you can see that the role of the state chair, when compared to the work of individual Libertarians in the state party, is not really very important at all. It is certainly not a job that requires demonstration of debate skills, rhetoric, or charismatic command of a room full of admirers. It’s clerk work more than anything else.

  284. Erik Viker

    Ed Reagan at 331, I cannot explain why Tom (or anybody else) does what he does. My comments were unrelated to any particular person and represnet what I expect of a state chair based on reading the bylaws. My comments about the role of state chair were neutral regarding the hypothetical Stevens-vs.-Scheetz matchup. At this point I see the “campaign” for state chair (what a silly idea) becoming a lose-lose situation for the LPPA.

  285. James Babb

    @336

    Erik is correct that the job of the LPPa chair is little more than a facilitator. Running meetings, and conducting the business as instructed by the board is basically all the chair SHOULD do.

    If the current chair was limiting his activities to the defined job description, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

    Unfortunately, the chair is in a position to do considerable damage to the party when he exceeds his authority, and behaves like an ass.

    If there had been an open debate prior to the last convention, folks could have known what they were getting. Perhaps with an opportunity for advance vetting, the other guy or even NOTA would have won.

  286. James Babb

    I’m going to turn off notifications. I don’t think I have anything left to add here, and I’ve now heard enough Tom horror stories for a lifetime.

    This thread started with a positive workshop in Montco. Our work has nothing to do with the Tom problem. I hope the LPPa can recover, but I’m not going to waste any more time with this black hole. I intend to continue to work with anyone interested in freeing minds. Feel free to contact me if you have a project I can help with (jamesbabb@mac.com). Peace!

  287. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Ed @ 227: With all due respect, I don’t usually think of “continuity of government” and “Blackwater” as having anything to do with Liberty. I associate them with a shadow government, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld,and the possibility of martial law and FEMA camps. Wow, this thread has certainly taken a surreal turn.

  288. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    rk @ 334: “fortunately for the LP there are many, many more hardworking jerks, oops state chairs, trying to grow their organizations.”

    Thanks for the laugh. Frankly, I can’t imagine why anyone would want such a demanding, thankless job. As I said earlier in the thread, I couldn’t even handle being an At-Large rep on the CA Ex Com. I only lasted one term. I’m much too thin-skinned for such a thing.

  289. Ed Reagan

    Tom Stevens @ 197

    Tom said: I was elected State Chair by a 60-40 vote at the LPPA Annual Convention held in April, 2012.

    Ed Reagan Says: There is Tom using percentages to hide th real numbers. There were 25 voting delegates, Tom got 15 votes. This year there will be more voting delegates there, lets see how many votes you get now that people knowy you better.

  290. SteveS

    Ladies and Gentlemen, I am thinking that this is an unproductive waste of time. my suggestion is that we leave tom alone and focus on removing him from Pennsylvania.

    There were some positive things accomplished, like winning the ballot access challenge. 4 of my county committee’s members worked on this project. In fact Richard Schwarz devoted weeks to the project, and Montgomery County honored the efforts of the volunteers at our holiday party.

    Ballot access was won, in 2012 with the spending of over $120,000 dollars to get the 26,000 signatures needed. Does this seem like a lot of money? It should, because it is.

    I suggest a better way. Leave Tom Stevens JD alone to find his way in the world and Help me find a better way to spend our money!

    Sincerely,

    Steve Scheetz

  291. Ed Reagan

    Jill @ 340

    Jill said: Ed @ 227: With all due respect, I don’t usually think of “continuity of government” and “Blackwater” as having anything to do with Liberty.

    Jill,

    I did the vast majority of continuity planning in the privates sector, but was the only employee of a small firm with a T/S clearance, so I got all the work that required a clearance. The same planning strategies I used with my private sector clients were the same I used with my pubic sector clients.

    It is just the private secor uses the terms “disaster recover” and “business contiuity” and the public sector uses the terms “continuity of operations” and “continuity of governement”.

    As for Blackwater, they also teach the NRA Fireams Classes at their facilities to civilians, which is what was doing there teaching since a few friends are instructrs there and asked if I wanted to make some extra cash.

    On the Libertarian spectrum I am more of a Voluntaryist/AnCap flavor, and support the end of the government monopoly on law enforcement. I would prefer free market competetion for all services provided by the government. Granted some of the things Blackwater did, I do not support, which is one of the reasons I no longer teach there. In fact I taught there way before the most notable incident took place there.

    As a Libertarian I support individuals and groups of individuals the using private security contractors. A prime example is the Palisades Patrol in Pacific Palasades and Malibu, where the residents were not getting good service from the LA County Sherriffs office and hired a private police force to patrol their towns. That is a Libertarian solution in action.

    http://www.palisadespatrol.com/palisadespatrol.html

  292. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Ed, thanks for your explanation above. Yes, contracting activities through the private sector is usually a good thing. So is learning to handle a firearm.

  293. Erik Viker

    Steve Scheetz, why not run the debate you seem to need right here? Tom Stevens has been answering all sorts of questions in this discussion thread.

  294. Andy

    SteveS said: “There were some positive things accomplished, like winning the ballot access challenge. 4 of my county committee’s members worked on this project. In fact Richard Schwarz devoted weeks to the project, and Montgomery County honored the efforts of the volunteers at our holiday party.

    Ballot access was won, in 2012 with the spending of over $120,000 dollars to get the 26,000 signatures needed. Does this seem like a lot of money? It should, because it is.”

    Go back and read my comments about what really happened on the 2012 ballot access drive in Pennsylvania. This is a much bigger point than surviving the challenge. If my advice had been taken, then it is likely that the challenge never would have happened, and even if it did happen, it would have been won a lot quicker, but the most likely scenario is that the challenge would not have happened. The petition drive would have also been done cheaper and far more effectively had my advice been taken.

    What really went wrong with the LP of PA petition drive was a FAILURE on behalf of LP national, and some individuals in the state party who did not step up and try to put a stop to the problematic situation caused by LP national.

    What really happened is like sound advice of not walking into a mine field was given, yet it is ignored, and they walked into a mine field anyway, but after a lot of stress and hard work they made it would of the mine field.

    It seems to me that the biggest point here is DO THE JOB RIGHT THE FIRST TIME FROM THE BEGINNING. DO NOT WALK INTO MINE FIELDS WHEN IT IS EASY TO AVOID THEM, ESPECIALLY WHEN SOMEBODY IS TELLING YOU, “HEY, THERE’S A MINE FIELD THERE. DON’T WALK INTO IT.”

    I was warning about this situation as far back as February of last year. All of this mess in PA would have been avoided if somebody had listened to me and implemented what I said.

    I’ve still got time stamped emails and text messages to back this up.

  295. Andy

    “and some individuals in the state party who did not step up and try to put a stop to the problematic situation caused by LP national.”

    Actually, there were a few people in the LP of PA who did step up a few weeks into it, and they agreed with me, however, by then it was too late as much of the damage had already been done.

  296. LPP

    to 346 be careful. the good doctor tom stevens is known to get nasty when confronted on the web. i hope steve sheetz is not jewish or else the good doctor will resurrect the “””jewish nigger””” rants. how do you feel working with someone that treats others in this fahsion viker? when i asked the good doctor to have you moderate the lppa communications he said you are too “””liberal for your own good”””. must be true since you give the good doctor a pass. maybe he has you by the balls who knows.

  297. Erik Viker

    Attention, person hiding behind the initials LPP at 349: I am very liberal about people doing whatever they care to do, provided they aren’t violating anybody else’s rights. But I do not take people who hide behind internet anonymity seriously, so name your name and maybe then I will tell you about my feelings.

  298. Richard Schwarz

    I have been a dues paying member of the LPPa continuously since 1992. I ran our statewide ballot access drives from 1992-1998 successfully and without drama securing our statewide slate of candidates on the ballot all 4 times during that period. I have assisted all statewide ballot drives since then. I volunteered over 100 hours, including taking days off work and losing pay, to help the LPPa defend its petitions against the Republican challenge this year. I admit to voting for Gary Johnson. For four years I wrote and edited our state party newsletter. I have organised 2 state conventions and assisted in the organization of several others. And I say this not to brag, or toot my own horn, but to point out I’m not some Johnny Come Lately into the LPPa, but that I have legitimate credentials to make the criticisms against Tom Stevens that I am about to make.

    The funny thing is, that as I first got to know Tom Stevens, this year, while working on the LPPa defense of our petitions, I liked him. I remember him telling me that he had been banned from the NYLP and myself thinking that was odd.

    But I started to sense something was amiss, even during this petition defense, that sometimes my posts to the LPPa board of directors yahoo group email list, the one controlled and moderated by Tom Stevens were censored and not permitted to be posted to the group. Other emails were edited, without my authorization, completely changing what I intended to say into something completely different, without any indication that this was done, yet still carrying my name as the author so that anyone reading it would assume I wrote it verbatim.

    I am NOT a Libertarian so that I can be censored and edited at the whim of the state chair.

    Tom Stevens has claimed many times that he only moderates the list to keep the tone civil and to keep out the negativity and personal attacks,

    This is bullshit. Tom Stevens does not permit ANY email to get through on his board list if the opinion expressed in such email differs from his own. I have the rejected emails to prove this. But the funny thing is the one person who is permitted to make nasty and unsubstantiated attacks on his email list and consistently posts negative drivel against others is Tom Stevens. Furthermore, barely a week goes by before Tom sends out another mass email post bragging about all that he is done and attributing any all success to himself. Yet if anyone tries to give an alternative point of view, such person is immediately banned from the list. So much for “Freedom of the Press.”

    Furthermore Tom Stevens has set up multiple facebook and meetup groups and then yields the same authoritarian control there that he does on the email list. Once you disagree with Tom, you are banned. But he runs his own re-election commercials on an almost daily basis. And he bad mouths everyone who doesn’t share his authoritarian vision.

    Tom Stevens claims he has recently moved to Philadelphia. I do not know or care whether or not this is true. What I do know is that Tom had set up a couple of organizational meetings for the Philadelphia LP. But when certain people RSVPd to those meetings that Tom did not approve of, he abruptly canceled those meetings. Turns out he instead decided to hold a secret meeting, inviting only those whom he deemed worthy of attending. I don’t really care, but then Tom, after the fact, sends out a completely BS propaganda piece announcing his own election as Chair of the LP of Philadelphia, and claiming that all residents of Philadelphia who are LPPa members were notified of and invited to this meeting. This is a complete and total lie. I was never notified of this meeting. I have lived in Philadelphia for over 20 years and been a continuous dues paying member. Tom Stevens intentionally did not notify me of this meeting because I disagree with him. I have asked him personally to explain himself in this action, yet he refuses to do so. I have over 20 years of dedicated service to both the Pennsylvania and Philadelphia Libertarian Parties and I resent being treated in such a disrespectful manner, especially by someone who only moved here in the past few weeks.

    These actions are just the tip of the iceberg. I have now witnessed firsthand many of the despicable behaviors attributed to Tom Stevens and can verify their authenticity.

    I wish I could write as eloquently as James Babb, but everything Jim has posted here has been correct. We here in Pennsylvania are so lucky to have Jim and all the wonderful activists that we do, especially the ones from Montgomery County, and it is amazing to have a state chair who instead of relishing this fact, does everything in his power to discredit them, to attack them, and to literally work against them.

    I believe “Authoritarian Sociopath” is a credible and accurate description.

  299. LPP

    to 350 lollol the good Dr tom stevens must have told the truth about this one i guess. what i say has nothing to do with the good doctor tom stevens attacking people. who i am has nothing to do with how you feel. you should feel ashamed to work so closely with the good Dr given his admitted racist violent sexual posts. you are afraid to cross him if you admit his racist sexist violent posts are unbecoming of leadership? Mr erik viker i removed myself from work with the good Dr tom stevens when his behavior became a distraction. i just asked why you work with him but i guess you like the good drs company. no other secretary has put up with his control now we see why.

  300. Kevin Knedler

    I want to thank my fellow state chair from New York ! In my 5 1/2 years as chair of the Ohio LP I have found my key focus to be on “herding cats” 24-7 looking for new talent to fill roles (headhunter), keeping everyone on the team focused, cheerleader, and playing Dr. Phil (volunteers+passion+human beings = challenges). I could write a book on this journey–LOL.

  301. LPP

    to 351 this is what drives libertarians like myself away from the lppa./ im afraid this is what viker and stevens want is to be left alone to suck the life blood of the lppa. that would be fine if it wasnt for the fact they also actively prevent any local “””problem organizations””” from growing outside their control. i am aware of the situation with the email lists. when tom was told to publish the lists he refused. viker has refused as well. but they see no problem using the lists as advertisements for lou jasikoff or anyone else with ties. no bids or competition just pure crony hijacking of lppa lists. same goes for any challenge made on the email lists it is removed as you have stated. as far as taking over local chapters it has been done at the call of the good Dr tom stevens. i was involved in work to seed berks cumberland york lancaster counties although they were already active. meetup groups fb pages have been started thats when i removed myself after the good Dr tom stevens refused to answer my concerns. he warned discussion of the “””problem organizations””” will “””not be tolerated””” in the lists. i am not surpirsed but you must be aware he is now in your backyard he has promised to make new organization committee to take over philly area. stay tuned

  302. LPP

    the good Dr tom stevens refuses to give lists of registered libertarians to any local chapter not directly controlled by him. if your not under his control he will refuse to provide what is essential onformation. what is described by richard is 100% true. this is why he sent an alert of the eastern libertarians havng a gathering the 16th he stops any libertarian activity he is unable to control. he admits this. the good Dr has told everyone he has “””sole domain””” of the word Libertarian in pa. i was asked to bring my skills to philly to assist tom in a student org to be the leading committee from philly. the good Dr has big plans for the philly area.

  303. LPP

    This is the third request for information regarding membership numbers as of today, a list of organized counties, and the names/contacts of the officers. This is public information, and should be posted on the LPPA website. Why is it being kept hidden? Tom, you need to provide the information requested, this is YOUR JOB. If you are unable to do your job, step down and someone else will do your job for you.

    On a second note, Tom Stevens JD created this meetup page: http://www.meetup.com/Montgomery-County-Libertarians/ it is in direct competition with the established Montgomery County Libertarian Committee http://montcolp.org Tom was asked to take his alternate meetup down so as to eliminate any confusion for Montgomery County Libertarians. So far, he has absolutely refused.

    Tom, it is not your place to create meetups in counties that are already established, you need to delete your meetup. The fact that you created it is a sign of disrespect. I should not have to state this to an adult.

    Sincerely,

    Steve Scheetz

    Chair, Montgomery County Libertarian Committee

    Mr. Scheetz,

    Your political posturing is unbecoming of an County Committee Chair.

    Membership numbers were published frequently and the last numbers were published on December 31, 2012.

    Do not tell me what my job is or what I should do? I have made the business of the LPPA more transparent than ever and published more details about Board action than any other past chair.

    The Montgomery County Meetup you refer to was formed for supporters of Gary Johnson in your county. You, as you may recall, didn’t feel Johnson was libertarian enough for you to support and you didn’t obtain a single signature for him or our statewide candidates.

    Dr. Tom Stevens

    LPPA State Chair

    Mr Stevens, I have no clue what you are talking about regarding “political posturing,” but I have asked you repeatedly for this information. Your response did not include any of the information I requested. (not even a link as to where to find said information. I did look on the LPPA site, but there was no information as of the last board meeting which was what I asked for.)

    Again, and to refresh your memory, I requested the numbers as of this past board meeting. During this past board meeting, you stated, in front of the entire room, that you would give them to me. You have not. You suggested something about needing to obtain numbers from National, but this was not the case, because I requested these numbers from national, and it was stated that only the LPPA has these numbers.

    I also asked for a list of counties that are recognized along with the names and contact information for their board members. You have FAILED to deliver this information to me.

    Regarding the meetup in Montgomery county that I am referring to was started by YOU, and you are specifically in charge of the meetup. Take it down unless you mean to challenge the Montgomery County Libertarian Committee’s authority in Montgomery County.

    Regarding who I supported in this past election. Frankly, Mr. Stevens, it is not your business, nor would any Libertarian make it his/her business who I supported. However, I will say that I did NOT support the Objectivist Party Candidate, “Tom Stevens JD” who won over 4,000 votes against Gary Johnson in 2012.

    I am telling you what your job is, Tom Stevens JD, because it seems that you are having difficulty performing tasks that you are supposed to be doing, SPECIFICALLY helping your county chapters with their events. So far, you have done everything in your power to make the success of the Pennsylvania Libertarian Organizational Workshop more difficult to achieve.

    After this meeting, Counties will be able to communicate, freely. They will be able to cross Pollinate, their ideas as to what works or does not work, we, in attendance or who will be watching will learn from the experience of our speakers regarding topics like statewide campaigns, Libertarian Solutions to government created problems, running for state rep, how to have fun running for office, and many more.

    The workshop portion will involve inter-county networking. Since you live in Philadelphia, you should come, you might learn from the experience. Tom, it has ceased to matter that you have censored the message board lists… Libertarians will ALWAYS find a way to network and make things happen. You can either help to facilitate our discussions or we will simply go around you and do our best to ignore your snarky little comments.

    Have a great weekend!

    Sincerely,

    Steve Scheetz

  304. LPP

    This is the third request for information regarding membership numbers as of today, a list of organized counties, and the names/contacts of the officers. This is public information, and should be posted on the LPPA website. Why is it being kept hidden? Tom, you need to provide the information requested, this is YOUR JOB. If you are unable to do your job, step down and someone else will do your job for you.

    On a second note, Tom Stevens JD created this meetup page: http://www.meetup.com/Montgomery-County-Libertarians/ it is in direct competition with the established Montgomery County Libertarian Committee http://montcolp.org Tom was asked to take his alternate meetup down so as to eliminate any confusion for Montgomery County Libertarians. So far, he has absolutely refused.

    Tom, it is not your place to create meetups in counties that are already established, you need to delete your meetup. The fact that you created it is a sign of disrespect. I should not have to state this to an adult..

    Sincerely,

    Steve Scheetz

    Chair, Montgomery County Libertarian Committee

    Mr. Scheetz,

    Your political posturing is unbecoming of an County Committee Chair.

    Membership numbers were published frequently and the last numbers were published on December 31, 2012.

    Do not tell me what my job is or what I should do? I have made the business of the LPPA more transparent than ever and published more details about Board action than any other past chair.

    The Montgomery County Meetup you refer to was formed for supporters of Gary Johnson in your county. You, as you may recall, didn’t feel Johnson was libertarian enough for you to support and you didn’t obtain a single signature for him or our statewide candidates.

    Dr. Tom Stevens

    LPPA State Chair

    Mr Stevens, I have no clue what you are talking about regarding “political posturing,” but I have asked you repeatedly for this information. Your response did not include any of the information I requested. (not even a link as to where to find said information. I did look on the LPPA site, but there was no information as of the last board meeting which was what I asked for.)

    Again, and to refresh your memory, I requested the numbers as of this past board meeting. During this past board meeting, you stated, in front of the entire room, that you would give them to me. You have not. You suggested something about needing to obtain numbers from National, but this was not the case, because I requested these numbers from national, and it was stated that only the LPPA has these numbers.

    I also asked for a list of counties that are recognized along with the names and contact information for their board members. You have FAILED to deliver this information to me.

    Regarding the meetup in Montgomery county that I am referring to was started by YOU, and you are specifically in charge of the meetup. Take it down unless you mean to challenge the Montgomery County Libertarian Committee’s authority in Montgomery County.

    Regarding who I supported in this past election. Frankly, Mr. Stevens, it is not your business, nor would any Libertarian make it his/her business who I supported. However, I will say that I did NOT support the Objectivist Party Candidate, “Tom Stevens JD” who won over 4,000 votes against Gary Johnson in 2012.

    I am telling you what your job is, Tom Stevens JD, because it seems that you are having difficulty performing tasks that you are supposed to be doing, SPECIFICALLY helping your county chapters with their events. So far, you have done everything in your power to make the success of the Pennsylvania Libertarian Organizational Workshop more difficult to achieve.

    After this meeting, Counties will be able to communicate, freely. They will be able to cross Pollinate, their ideas as to what works or does not work, we, in attendance or who will be watching will learn from the experience of our speakers regarding topics like statewide campaigns, Libertarian Solutions to government created problems, running for state rep, how to have fun running for office, and many more.

    The workshop portion will involve inter-county networking. Since you live in Philadelphia, you should come, you might learn from the experience. Tom, it has ceased to matter that you have censored the message board lists… Libertarians will ALWAYS find a way to network and make things happen. You can either help to facilitate our discussions or we will simply go around you and do our best to ignore your snarky little comments.

    Have a great weekend!

    Sincerely,

    Steve Scheetz

  305. Erik Viker

    Attention person hiding behind the initials LLP: I do not understand what you suggest by “working with” Tom Stevens. I was the other candidate when he ran for state chair. I was on the state board as Secretary for a few months but I resigned because I had no interest in the counterproductive foolishness that had developed since the officer elections. I have not “refused” to publish any “lists.”

    You seem confused.

  306. Patrick Henry Sellers

    Geeez, what a long, windy, at times pathetic thread. I just tuned in yesterday evening and have spent numerous hours to finally catch up. I guess I’m the “older libertarian” Ed Regan referred to at the recent Chester County meetup. Thanks Ed, I’ll remember you kindly too. I had no idea all this crap was going on. I don’t know anything about Tom Stevens other than what I have now read and heard from reliable sources. But, I do know Jim Babb and I do know Steve Scheetz. I’m a lifelong Chester County resident and a long time liberty activist. I met these two men during the 2008 Ron Paul campaign and have attended their meetings when I can. We have worked together on eminent domain battles, marched at End the Fed rallies…

    I only wish I had the time and energy Jim and Steve have for jury nullification, check point nullification, fighting the TSA… For me the Montco LP is a model for others to emulate. They always have multiple liberty battles going on.

    I have a real problem with anyone claiming to be a libertarian attacking them.

  307. LPP

    to 357 attention erik viker i don’t want to get between you and your plans for chair. don’t misunderstand. i do thank you for admitting the good Dr tom stevens has brought nothing but counterproductive foolishness to the lppa. the good Dr tom stevens was leary of your fights with Mr krawchuk. the good Dr used that as an example of why the various lists need strict moderation to which he said you offered full support. if the good Dr used your words in error or in the wrong i apologize. that is what i meant by working with.

  308. LPP

    to 358 hello sir. i do agree with mr viker to some degree when he says the eastern anarchist crew likes conflict. i do admire the anarchists for being excellent protesters. i would admire them more if they ran candidates thats where i do agree mr viker has a point. the good Dr tom stevens is making a committee to remove scheetz and the bunch. are you part of the committee at all? if not you should request the good Dr let you in.

  309. Erik Viker

    Person hiding behind the initials LPP @359, you are definitely confused about some things. I have no “plans for chair” other than to vote for the person who will do what the bylaws require and nothing more, or I’ll vote for “none of the above.” I support consistent application of posting guidelines for friend and foe, not “strict moderation.” And you are (or your dubious source is) mixing up Ken Krawchuk with David Jahn. Your apology is accepted.

  310. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    kk @ 353: Any stories or articles you’d like to write would be welcome here. In fact, there’s been so much lately about states that have terrible infighting, it might be nice if you can share some of the things that have worked for you. My email is stone@altrionet.com, and I love posting things here from new sources.

  311. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    So…will we hit 400 comments here? We haven’t had a thread like that for some time.

  312. LPP

    to 363 mr viker i am sorry i have been keeping distance from myself with the lppa since parting i guess it now shows. you have to admit it is hard keeping up with the circus the good Dr tom stevens has brought to town

  313. LPP

    to 363 mr viker why did the good Dr tom stevens send out an email to lppa stating mr viker requested the changes in moderation? but i can’t say it isn’t true that you may have been misquoted. the good Dr may have put it out in error maybe even intentionally which i wouldn’t put past him his reputation is enough

  314. Ed Reagan

    Patrick Henry Sellers @ 358

    No disrespect was meant by my “older libertarian” label, I was trying to draw a disticnction between long time Libertarians and the new corp of recruits organized by Mr. Stevens used to take over counties with existing county groups and undermine the efforts of the counties he is unable to take over or control.

  315. Chuck Moulton

    As a native Pennsylvanian myself, I should probably weigh in here. I served a term as state chair of the Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania. Before that I served terms as Secretary, Election Committee chair, Website Committee chair, and Montgomery County representative to the LPPA board.

    Ken Krawchuk wrote (@30):

    I’m the secretary of the Montco LP, a post I’ve held for 5 years now, a 2-term past chair of the state party, and the Libertarian Party candidate for governor in 2002 and 1998, so I think I can credibly speak to this issue.

    Richard Schwarz wrote (@351):

    I have been a dues paying member of the LPPa continuously since 1992. I ran our statewide ballot access drives from 1992-1998 successfully and without drama securing our statewide slate of candidates on the ballot all 4 times during that period. I have assisted all statewide ballot drives since then. I volunteered over 100 hours, including taking days off work and losing pay, to help the LPPa defend its petitions against the Republican challenge this year. I admit to voting for Gary Johnson. For four years I wrote and edited our state party newsletter. I have organised 2 state conventions and assisted in the organization of several others.

    Mark Axin wrote (@103):

    4. The Manhattan LP and the liberty movement have many friends, but one of the truly best of the best is Jim Babb who has spoken more than once in Manhattan. He is to be particularly admired for all of his great work educating the sheeple of the evils of the TSA.

    I’ve known Ken Krawchuk, Richard Schwarz, and Jim Babb for a decade. In fact Jim Babb was county chair of the Montgomery County LP when I attended my first Libertarian Party meeting and we’ve been friends ever since.

    Although Jim hasn’t listed his record of LP activism here, it is equally impressive to Richard and Ken’s. Jim served as Montgomery County chair for many years. He edited our state newsletter for many years. He spearheaded many of our statewide mailings for things like candidate recruitment. And he was a LP candidate for state representative in 2004.

    I spent quite a few days helping defend the Pennsylvania Gary Johnson petition myself. Richard was a fixture there.

    Ken, Richard, and Jim have all been tireless and indispensable activists. They are not exaggerating their credentials… if anything they are being modest. Attempts to besmirch their motives or their long history of activism are quite sad.

    By the way, Ken and Richard are practically nemeses (Ken frequently called Richard a “negatarian” for criticizing the way Ken chaired the LPPA) — or frenemies if you will –, so if Ken and Richard agree on something (like they do here about Tom) that’s pretty newsworthy.

    Dr. Tom Stevens wrote (@274):

    Attendees:
    – Steve Scheetz, Chair
    – Ken Krawchuk, Secretary
    – Jim Babb, Troublemaker
    – Richard Schwarz, Troublemaker
    – Darren Wolfe

    I think Darren Wolfe was also at the first meeting I attended. He’s a great guy as well. I haven’t known Steve Scheetz as long as the others, but he’s good people too. Steve is passionate about liberty and the Libertarian Party along with my many other Montgomery County LP friends.

  316. Chuck Moulton

    James Babb wrote (@1):

    Anyone who knows Pennsylvania can confirm that that the Montgomery County LP has very long history of high quality events.

    Ken Krawchuk wrote (@30):

    For example, in 2012 ALONE, we Montco Libs achieved the following:

    – SHUT DOWN a suspicionless (i.e., DUI) checkpoint!
    – Organized “Philly Freedom Fest” with Ron Paul (over 4000 people attended!);
    – Staged Jurors’ Rights Outreach rallies at the Montco courthouse (a dozen times!);
    – Organized the “Who Would Jesus Punch in the Face” rally after a Philly cop punched out a harmless woman;
    – Ran the Hospitality Suite at the LPP convention for the 18th consecutive year;
    – Launched our Operation Leprechaun web outreach initiative;
    – Hosted the East Coast Bitcoin Summit;
    – Held a huge holiday party where we gave out the prestigious Monty Awards!
    – Helped free NJ Weedman;
    – Instigated a counter-gun-buyback to a police gun buyback;
    – Jim Babb spoke at Nullify Now (Philly), Restoring Freedoms (Wilkes Barre), Manhattan LP, and the Democracy Unplugged presidential forum;
    – I spoke at the Free State Project’s Liberty Forum (Nashua, NH), Restoring Freedoms (Wilkes Barre), and York 9-12ers on ballot access reform. I’ll also be speaking at the Liberty Forum again next month.
    – Darren Wolfe spoke at Nullify Now, Fedstock II, and Angel Clark’s radio show, as well as videographer of numerous rallies. In fact, his video coverage of the checkpoint nullification got over 20,000 views!
    – I ran for State Rep in 2012 and am running for Abington Township commissioner this year–as a Libertarian, of course.

    I’ve been amazed over the years at how effective my home county party (Mongomery County, PA) has been at liberty activism. Their recent successes have been outside the arena of running candidates (which is where I generally think the LP should be focused on), but they’ve run impressive slates in the past (such as in 2004 when I ran for U.S. Congress).

    My more recent home affiliate the Libertarian Party of Northern Virginia (LPNOVA) hosted Jim Babb this past month to talk about his Montgomery County activism. His speech to us closely mirrored his speech at the last Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania convention, which can be found on YouTube here.

  317. Chuck Moulton

    I’ve known Tom Stevens for many years. He supported me for Vice-Chair at the 2006 convention, where M Carling tried to remove the secret ballot in the New York state delegation and punish anyone that voted against him. Tom has always seemed like a nice guy and dedicated activist to me, so I found horror stories about him (even from some close friends) hard to believe.

    I’m also friends with Sam Sloan, who many lump together with Tom Stevens as associates. Sam and I both play chess and I frequently see Sam at chess tournaments like the World Open.

    James Babb wrote (@40):

    Steve M, anyone with first hand experience will confirm the “authoritarian sociopath” diagnosis. The story is the same in the NYLP, the Ron Paul Revolution, Outright Libertarians and now the LPPa.

    I’ve heard these charges from many friends, but have no firsthand experience with the episodes in question. Apparently Stevens has a history of setting up parallel organizations to already existing LP groups so he can be in charge. I tend to believe there is truth to that allegation.

    My experience has been that the Libertarian Party is a meritocracy — a do-ocracy. If you want to do work, people will be happy to give you responsibilities. It’s pretty easy to lead an LP organization in short order if you keep volunteering to do things that need to be done and aren’t afraid to get your hands dirty with grunt work (like stuffing mailers or collecting signatures or manning polls). Creating parallel organizations in an environment like that shows a lack of patience to me.

    I get the impression there has been personal drama in some of the organizations Tom (and Sam) have been involved in. Some people didn’t like Tom for silly reasons like perceived sexual orientation or having a picture with the cast of the musical “Naked Boys Singing!”. Perhaps these people blocked Tom from leadership positions or being a candidate, which led to frustration and trying to get around the organizational structure. I don’t think that would excuse the sort of language I’ve seen from past emails posted here (I’ve never personally seen Tom behave that way) or undermining of LP organizations with parallel ones.

    I was glad Tom was able to find a way around his New York snubbing by getting involved in Pennsylvania. I knew even if New York wasn’t a meritocracy (a do-ocracy), Pennsylvania always has been. Thus Pennsylvania would be a place where Tom could quickly get in positions of responsibility without worrying about personal drama and having to setup parallel organizations.

    I’m mystified why Tom has censored the board business list and Meetups and Facebook groups. He was a hero for the way he handled the petition challenge and could have easily sailed to re-election by just continuing to work hard to grow the party without creating drama.

    I’m mystified why Tom has created parallel county affiliates in places like Bucks County. All these affiliates welcome new members with open arms. It’s easy enough to recruit new members, get them attending local meetings, and have them be county officers within a year or 2 based on enthusiasm and merit. Disaffiliating county parties with longtime activists to immediately install a new slate of officers with neophytes displays a lack of patience.

  318. Chuck Moulton

    Mike Kane wrote (@9):

    “Doctor Tom” became state chair because there were only 2 candidates if I recall correctly, himself and Erik Viker.

    And the vast majority of the LPPA delegation chose to attend a Ron Paul Rally in downtown Philadelphia on Sunday Morning – rather than attend the business portion of the LPPA convention a few hours away in Wilkes Barre.

    I attended the LPPA convention on Saturday, the Montgomery County hospitality suite at the LPPA convention on Saturday night, and the Ron Paul rally on Sunday (along with Mike Kane, who I gave a ride to from northern Virginia). Saturday of the convention was a lot of libertarian speakers. The LPPA business session (which I missed) was on Sunday.

    The 2 candidates running were Erik Viker and Tom Stevens. Pretty much everyone I talked to at the Ron Paul rally was relieved that Tom Stevens won. (At the Ron Paul rally I ran into Jim Babb, Richard Schwarz, Ken Krawchuk, David Jahn, Darren Wolfe, and many others.) For months Erik Viker had been engaging in a flame war with David Jahn on the LPPA forum on lppa.org. (David Jahn is another longtime activist and former LPPA state chair with very impressive credentials).

    Tom Stevens was an unknown quantity for many and people did not like what they saw of Erik Viker (on the LPPA forum).

  319. Chuck Moulton

    Ken Krawchuk wrote (@30):

    On the other hand, in 2012 STEVENS DELIBERATELY DELETED ALL OF THE PARTY’S WEB RECORDS FOR THE LAST TEN YEARS!

    I turned over access to several LPPA Yahoo groups when Tom Stevens told me the board had passed a motion for shutting them down. I was administrator in trust for the LPPA and felt obligated to do what the board asked.

    I think it was a very bad idea to delete those groups, which contained archives of over 5 years of board emails and a files section containing meeting minutes. I regret not holding off for a month to ask the board to reconsider their deletion. I also regret not backing up the files section before turning over access. I had assumed those files would be backed up, which turned out to be a poor assumption.

  320. Kevin Knedler

    Voice of experience with “evolving” a state party. You Do NOT do it overnight or in a month or two. You do it over time, which could be a couple years, as it was for Ohio LP. Patience is critical. Plus, realizing that nearly EVERYONE has some value and can help in various areas of the party. A good leader not only finds the talent, but helps plug the existing talent-volunteer into the correct slot. And a good leader builds the team in order to leave a legacy of future leaders.

    No one person can do it all. To try that (ego)will ultimately lead to stagnation and actual resistance to change and future improvement.

  321. Chuck Moulton

    Tom Stevens has done a lot of great things for the LPPA — like reaching out to new inquiries and getting various working committees active at the state level and organizating of the Gary Johnson petition defense.

    If he stopped the censorship and the creating parallel county affiliates shenanigans he’d probably go down in history as one of the LPPA’s best state chairs.

    It’s a shame people will have to weigh the good against the bad while making voting decisions at the next state convention rather than making his re-election a no-brainer slam dunk.

  322. Mark Axinn

    Jill @ 365:

    I don’t know if you can count Ed’s and my culinary comments about fine dining along Route 80 in the race to 400. :)

  323. LPP

    to 375 what great things has the good Dr tom stevens done for the party? dictatorship of the term libertarian in pa? bad. venture to destroy any local chapter not adopting his bylaws &under his control? bad. as for the petition defense that will likely be lucrative payout for the good Dr tom stevens & a few cronies. real volunteers will get nothing but passing mention if lucky. you can also thank mr paul rossi for the success of the challenge. neither dr tom stevens or the other counsel were competent to lead without his knowledge. also read andy’s posts to learn the other problems why the petition process suffered. ask the good Dr tom stevens why the other local chapters didn’t participate aside from running their own candidates focusing on that. i have it on good authority the good Dr tom stevens made sure to dump on local chapters even though he made it difficult maybe impossible for them to be in process.

  324. Chuck Moulton

    Chuck Moulton wrote (@371):

    I’ve known Tom Stevens for many years. He supported me for Vice-Chair at the 2006 convention, where M Carling tried to remove the secret ballot in the New York state delegation and punish anyone that voted against him.

    Jill Pyeatt wrote (@380):

    Cm @ 371: What was M Carling doing in Pennsylvania?

    Vice-chair at the 2006 national convention.

  325. Andy

    “Steve Scheetz // Feb 3, 2013 at 1:37 am

    Andy, I would appreciate it if we could talk off list.”

    Sure, let me know how you want to get in touch.

  326. James Babb

    I just wanted to drop back in for one last comment.

    Thank you to all the folks that spoke up with nice things about myself and the Montco libertarians. I am genuinely humbled to work with you on so many projects over the years. I am so proud of our local crew and our allies around the world.

    To an outsider looking at 400 comments of “bickering” it may be discouraging, but that’s just the immune system kicking in to repel a foreign bacteria. Authoritarian, racist, sexist, violent assholes will not be tolerated. That much is clear.

    The strength of the libertarian movement is in the amazing individuals. It’s not bylaws, platforms, elections, or parties. When I see such awesome people, working so hard, I know who I want to work with, even if we prefer different tactics. Party “leadership” problems are temporary. We are in it for the long haul. Thanks again to everybody here who is working in their own way to promote freedom. Don’t let a few losers drag you down. Don’t get sucked in by the negativity. I certainly wont. We have too much work to do.

    Cheers!

  327. Erik Viker

    Person hiding behind the initials LPP at @367: on January 27 via email I suggested this to the state Board: “Our current state chair, Tom Stevens, has announced his intention to run for re-election and Montgomery County chair Steve Scheetz has announced he is running for chair. To minimize accusations of communications favoritism, I respectfully suggest that the Board re-assign moderator responsibilities for Facebook, website forum, and Yahoo Board Business group to a non-candidate until the election for state chair is concluded at our annual business meeting.” My motivation was to provide a way to ensure nobody “campaigned” for chair using official party channels. The Board took no action on this suggestion.

  328. Erik Viker

    The brilliant Chuck Moulton always carefully considers all sides of an issue and is usually dead-on correct. For example, I enjoyed a lengthy battle with David Jahn challening the dubious wisdom of his devotion to Republican Ron Paul as a strategy to grow Libertarian Party, which devoled in to various poetic versions of yelling “liar” at each other on line. It was magnificent, like Gandalf versus the Balrog. My reluctant campaign for state chair was limited to brief remarks at the convention that went something like this: I won’t to a damn thing you should be doing for yourself , and Republican Ron Paul is a fraud.” Tom got the gig because he was willing to do stuff nobody else wanted to do, and because that Viker is so mean you guys.

  329. Steven Wilson

    The utility becomes moot when it is corrupted at the ends and the means. Why would anyone be excited about gathering high numbers of members when those members just follow orders from the top person?

    Again, I’m sorry, but if the libertarian means conforming, then shut it down. Go back to your old party.

  330. Ed Reagan

    @387

    We are Libertarians, independent people, who fight for freedom and liberty.

    A top down, authoritarian, micromangement appoach will never work.

    Steve Scheetz has committed to allowing each board member, LPPA committee leaders and the county and regional committee leaders to take control of their own responsibilities and not mircomanage them. The leadership will be there to help when they ask for help, will not tell them what to do.

    This approach is very similar to how one of my past clients operates his company. When Warren Buffett’s Bershire Hathaway buys a new business, the keep the leadership that build that business in place, and lets them run their business as they see fit. He does not micromanage the leadership of every company he buys.

    One of the things that amazed me when working on projects at Berkshire Hathaway owned companies was those companies were truly free to run their business as they saw fit.

    For example when I was working with one the subsidaries they were using Penske Leasing for their trailers, not the Bershire Hathaway owned XTRA Leasing. They were appyling Sherwin Williams paint in their offices and plants, not the Bershire Hathaway owned Benjamin Moore Paint. There were Pepsi machines in all the breakrooms, eventhough Warren Buffet is one of the largest sareholders of Coca Cola stock.

    Sure Warren Buffett could have forced then to used the products and services of the other companies he owned, but he didn’t. This is becasue he knows that leadership that is free to make it own choices will in most cases make the best choices, and that top down micromanagement demotivates people.

    So come April the voting delegates at the LPPA Annual State Convention have to make choice between authoritarian, micromanagement and delegation and freedom to run your part of the organization as you see fit.

    I know one thing about the Libertarians I know, we did not become Libertatians so that a so called libertarian like Tom Stevens can try to use statist tactics to control what we do and how OUR Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania operates.

    We Pennsylvania Libertarians need to do the following:

    1) Renew your LPPA dues prior to the state convention and bring a paper copy of you PayPal receipt to prove that you are a member, since the current leadership has chosen not to respond to requests from the county committess for the membeship lists. This is because all memberships expire on 12/31 of each year, so even if you paid your LPPA dues on 12/30 your membership expires on 12/31.

    2) Show up early, Friday night if possible, so there current leadership does not try to move the time or day of the business meeting portion of the state convention, deviating from the published agenda like the LPPA Chairman Tom Stevens did at the January Board meeting.

    3) Make sure to to seek out Tom Stevens and tell him how you really feel about him. Keep in mind Tom has announced he will be staying at the Super 8 across the street from the convention hotel, so you may have to go looking for him to give him a piece of your mind.

    4) Plan on swinging by the Montco LP hospitality suite and meet the real Libertarians that are in the trenches every day fighting for freedom and liberty. Where we can natwork, share stories and not have to worry about being moderated, censored or micromanaged.

    5) Lastly do not forget to atttend the event that sparked this firestorm of Libertarian rising action. Details can be found at http://www.montcolp.org

    Thanks you for your support in our rising action to exile our current libertarian in name only, statist, authortarian, racist, sexist, State Chair who has advocated in the past for the murder and gang rape of people that have opposed him as documented above and confirmed by Mr. Stevens himself in this comment thread.

  331. Erik Viker

    @389, members of the LPPA should review the convention rules and relevant bylaws at http://www.LPPA.org under the Organization tab.

    About Ed’s #1 above, “Every member in good standing of the Party, as of 180 days before the convention, shall be entitled to be a delegate at such convention by attending in person. However, every attending member in good standing at the time of the convention may be a
    delegate if two thirds of the delegates present, in person, who meet the aforesaid 180-
    day requirement, vote to waive said requirement.”

    About Ed’s #2 above, a majority of delegates must approve any change to the business meeting agenda and the time and place is part of the agenda, so unless the board meets in advance to decide to change the convention schedule (they have that power) there probably will not be a surprise meeting time change. If you really fear this may be attempted, you may contact Board members directly at the emails listed at http://www.lppa.org/organization/lppa-state-organization.html and advise them you would oppose such shenanigans.

    While Ed’s #3 might be cathartic for some people, it’s not something members “need to do” in their capacity as voting delegates. Your vote at the business meeting will suffice, and you can contact Tom at chair@lppa.org without wandering from cheap motel to cheap motel like a hobo.

  332. Erik Viker

    Additional information relevant to the post @387:
    About Ed Reagan’s point #1, the LPPA bylaws state “Every member in good standing of the Party, as of 180 days before the convention, shall be entitled to be a delegate at such convention by attending in person. However, every attending member in good standing at the time of the convention may be a delegate if two thirds of the delegates present, in person, who meet the aforesaid 180-day requirement, vote to waive said requirement. Delegates must be registered Libertarian in Pennsylvania unless prohibited by law.”

    About point #2, any changes to the agenda of the annual business meeting must be approved by a majority of delegates, and the time and place is part of the agenda. The state Board would have to meet in advance of that day to change the time of the meeting (they have that power), so if you really are concerned about it you could advise your Board members that you oppose such shenanigans by email using the addresses at http://www.lppa.org/organization/lppa-state-organization.html

    About point #3, while telling Tom how you really feel about him might be cathartic for some people, it’s not something LPPA delegates “need to do.” Supporting your preferred chair nominee at convention will suffice. And through April 27 you can contact Tom at chair@lppa.org without wandering from one cheap motel to another like a hobo.

  333. Andy

    Erik Viker said: “I enjoyed a lengthy battle with David Jahn challening the dubious wisdom of his devotion to Republican Ron Paul as a strategy to grow Libertarian Party,”

    I think that the Libertarian Party most definitely should reach out to Ron Paul supporters. Most of the small “l” libertarians out there are in the Ron Paul movement, and many of them are activist types, and a lot of them are young. These are exactly the type of people that the Libertarian Party needs.

    I’ve been to numerous Ron Paul and Campaign for Liberty events / meetings all over the country, including Pennsylvania, and from my experience in interacting with many of these people, the majority of them are in fact open to the Libertarian Party. The main reason that a lot of them have not gotten involved is because they don’t think that the Libertarian Party is doing much of anything or going anywhere. Another big reason is that most of them did not like Bob Barr.

  334. Be Rational

    As written @ 335 by CLUELESS Lefty Danger Pistolero

    ” There are two different boards: the Executive Board (our three officers) and the Board of Directors (our membership). The Board of Directors is principally four times larger than the Executive Board, and soon to grow.”

    There it is, YOU said it:

    “The Board of Directors (our membership)”

    This means that the Board of Directors is the membership. It elects itself. It decides who can be members. It only has 12 members according to you. All other LP PA members, LNC members, and registered Libertarian voters who live in York County and who should be automatic members – at least the paid members should be automatic, however in numerous state LPs all registered voters are automatic members.

    Pennsylvania has the only state LP groups using this kind of cult structure that I’ve heard of. In all of the others that I’ve been involved with – dozens of them – you sign up, and you’re a member. Some require paying dues, some only require registration to vote.

    And you are wrong about the LP PA, your own state LP group has an open form of membership. According to the information above, you pay your dues, register to vote as a Libertarian and you’re a member.

    So, the York county LP organization is a self contained, paranoid cult of 12 self-selected members. It excludes everyone they don’t want.

    This is quite a tiny organization, so your additional information not only confirms that it’s a cult, it means it’s actually worse than I had previously thought. They are not growing in any real sense of the word and are excluding hundreds of individuals from membership.

    The real members who live in York county cannot control what should be their own local party organization even though they are Libertarian Party members or registered LP voters and should be automatic members able to control and elect their own board members. But they are excluded by the leaders of the cult.

  335. Ed Reagan

    Tom Stevens wrote: “Steve Scheetz did not obtain a single petition signature for Gary Johnson or our Statewide Candidates…”

    Tom since you are so concerned about how many signatures Steve Scheetz collected on the nomination petitions for Libertarian Party ballot access in Pennsylvania, please provide us the number of signature you personally collected on nomination petitions for Libertarian Party ballot acccess in Pennsylvania. Also since the ballot petitions are part of the public record due to the court case, please also provide a link to scanned copies of the actual nomination petitons you circulated.

    Some how I feel you will have collected the exact same number og signatures as Steve Scheetz. Please prove me wrong. Otherwise you are just the pot calling the kettle black.

    We are all waiting patiently for your documented proof.

  336. Erik Viker

    Andy @391, personally and as an LP activist I have always encouraged the LP to reach out to Ron Paul fans and invite them to become LP members and to support LP candidates. What I have not done is pretended that supporting and voting for a Republican Party politican will advance the goals of the national LP or the LPPA as described in our bylaws.

    I have consistently maintained that if those who spent so much money, time, and energy promoting a Republican Party politician would have instead invested their resources in the LP as leaders and activists, the LP would have most done more and gone farther in the past decade. I voted for Republican Ron Paul when he was our nominee in the 1980s but I have been mistrustful of him since he rejoined the Republicans the following year. I have long suspected the GOP leadership is happy to see him run on their fringes because he has kept many libertarian-leaning people in the Republican-voting fold.

    I agree with those who did not trust Bob Barr. I opposed his nomination and was unsurprised when he slithered back to the liberty-squashing, government bloating hypocrites of the Republican Party. Political parties will never go away, and I do not trust any Republican Party politicians or their Democratic Party cronies with government responsibility.

  337. Steven Wilson

    If the state chair is going to censor and manipulate the counties, why would you even bring up battles won in court over ballot access?

    If your county chair is active and helping liberty, then you should not have a state chair. You don’t need both.

    If your counties don’t have leadership, then the state chair should be actively “team building” for that county.

    No state chair should be giving commands or a litmus test for being a party member or participant.

  338. Andy

    Erik Viker said: “What I have not done is pretended that supporting and voting for a Republican Party politican will advance the goals of the national LP or the LPPA as described in our bylaws.”

    There are pros and cons to voting for small “l” libertarians running under a different party banner, but as a Libertarian Party member since 1996 I will say that I put the cause of liberty over the Libertarian Party itself. I see the Libertarian Party as one tool for fighting for liberty, but I do not see it as the only tool.

    “I have consistently maintained that if those who spent so much money, time, and energy promoting a Republican Party politician would have instead invested their resources in the LP as leaders and activists, the LP would have most done more and gone farther in the past decade.”

    I don’t fully agree with you here. The Libertarian Party and movement was in a down cycle before Ron Paul started his campaign for the Republican Party’s Presidential nomination in 2007. Ron Paul’s campaign gave the pro-liberty movement a much needed injection of energy.

    It’s not like the Libertarian Party had a lot going on and then Ron Paul’s campaign came in and took away from it. The truth of the matter is that the Libertarian Party was basically doing jack shit. The Libertarian Party grew from 1994-2000, but after the 2000 election the Libertarian Party started an overall downward trend.

    I was really glad when Ron Paul ran because his campaigns got a lot of new people activated, and it also got a lot of people who had been burned out on activism and who had become inactive to be reactivated. Ron Paul’s campaigns got a lot of people talking about ending the Federal Reserve System, ending the militaristic foreign policy, ending the overspending, ending the domestic police state, ending the war on drugs, and other important pro-liberty issues. Ron Paul’s campaigns did more to promote the cause of liberty to a large number of people than the Libertarian Party has ever done.

    I thought that the Libertarian Party had a huge opportunity in 2008 to take advantage of this wave for liberty that Ron Paul created, but the Bob Barr campaign and internal party dysfunction screwed this up big time.

    The situation for the Libertarian Party in 2012 was not as bad as it was in 2008 and the Libertarian Party most definitely had a better year in 2012 because of it, but there is still a lot more room for the Libertarian Party to capitalize on the Ron Paul / Campaign for Liberty crowd. The majority of these people are open to the Libertarian Party, we just need to do a better job and showing them that we are accomplishing things and reaching out to them, and if this was done effectively, I think that the Libertarian Party would be much larger than it is now.

    “I agree with those who did not trust Bob Barr. I opposed his nomination and was unsurprised when he slithered back to the liberty-squashing, government bloating hypocrites of the Republican Party.”

    I did not trust Bob Barr either, and later events have proven that I was right to not trust him. Bob Barr was probably the worst candidate the Libertarian Party has ever had.

  339. Andy

    Erik Viker said: “I have long suspected the GOP leadership is happy to see him run on their fringes because he has kept many libertarian-leaning people in the Republican-voting fold.”

    I don’t know about this. The Republican establishment has been pretty damn hostile to Ron Paul and his supporters. Ron Paul delegates got screwed over in multiple states and at the Republican National Convention.

    I think that the Republican Party’s establishment and the Democratic Party’s establishment do not like anyone who does not toe their party’s line, whether they are doing it inside their party or outside of their party.

    Also, one of the main things that caused Ron Paul to gain a lot of supporters was that he was able to get in most of the debates with the contenders for the Republican Party’s Presidential nomination contenders. One especially big moment which helped Ron Paul gain a lot of support was when he stood up to Rudy Giuliani during the Republican debates.

    I would have loved to see Ron Paul run as a Libertarian Party or independent candidate for President, but the fact of the matter is that if he had not run in the Republican primaries that he would never have gotten to debate any of the other major party candidates. Getting in those debates was one of the biggest things that increased his support. This is why the Commission on Presidential Debates works so hard to keep minor party and independent candidates out of the general election debates.

  340. Andy

    “This is why the Commission on Presidential Debates works so hard to keep minor party and independent candidates out of the general election debates.”

    Minor party and independent candidates have been able to get in some debates with major party candidates for state and local offices (even at those levels they are shut out of most of those debates, however), but the fact of the matter is that not nearly as many people watch those debates as the number of people who watch the debates with the major party candidates for President.

  341. David Smith

    After reading all of the comments, attacks and accusations on this page, I have to wonder a few things.

    A few considerations:
    • Dr. is an acceptable honorarium for an attorney to use, even though it is seldom done. Most attorneys prefer the term esquire, but it is not required.
    • Regardless of accusations, Stevens has no convictions
    • Stevens may have used bad judgment in the past in blog posts, but from what I know the people attacking him on here for such statements have said worse to county chairs who don’t share their opinions. There seem to have been endless attacks on county chairs who work well with Stevens from some of you, claiming that he was “hanging off Uncle Tom’s dick.” Is that any more or less appropriate? I don’t think so. People who throw stones should not live in glass houses. Or am I wrong that some of you have been attacking people who never said a nasty word to you in your lives?
    • Residency is an important issue that needs to be addressed. However, that issue has been so obfuscated by the name-calling and childish attacks that it is barely noticed at this point.

    Regarding the election

    • I’ve seen not a single post by the challenger or his supporters to explain what their goals are going to be if he is elected.
    • From this blog, I don’t even know who is running. The Scheetz guy, possibly?
    • Why are people so focused on Stevens’ use of the acceptable (though eccentric) use of the title “Dr.” when we could be looking at real issues such as growing the party so that our liberty agenda can truly gain ground?
    • It seems as if there are only two dissatisfied counties fighting against the state chair. Essentially, that demonstrates that there is far more of a personal conflict here than a professional conflict
    • Other than getting to be in charge, what is the challenger posing as a course of action if he is elected?
    • What has the challenger done to build unity, strengthen the LPPA or build consensus? Or are we going to go through this crap all over again if he is elected?
    • I’ve seen countless examples of one dictator being replaced by a far worse dictator. Considering that I see vicious attacks against Stevens from his opponents and a very tempered and reasonable set of responses from Stevens, I am very concerned that the challengers and his team represent the worst of the deal. Just like in the last presidential election, are we, the members of the LP supposed to choose between the lesser of two evils?
    • The person who is trying to recruit me into the LPPA explained Stevens’ accomplishments and some of his flaws. The party is starting to grow, we have minor party status, a bit of centralized authority seems to help get things accomplished and we won the Supreme Court challenge. How are these things bad, and why is the focus of attacks simply on statements, accusations and sexual preferences. Is this how the LP acts when people don’t get their way? If so, that’s pretty damn pathetic.
    • Is this how the challengers intend to build consensus and grow? By personally attacking people that disagree with them?
    • I am always open to new ideas and love to see a strong, reasonable challenge to a sitting chairman or elected official. However, I hate the mudslinging bullshit that endlessly occurs when challengers (or incumbents) don’t have a strong argument against the other person. This all looks just like a bunch of personal peeves and not really a question of the ability to lead.
    • The only real issues that need to be resolved are the residence issue and whether Objectivist Party membership creates a conflict of interest. Had the challengers focused on those two issues rather than engaging in endless personal attacks against Stevens – or anyone who supports him or even tries to be neutral – I might have been swayed to support a challenger. However, what I see here is not the type of leadership that I am comfortable supporting.
    • I am disappointed, because all I wanted to do was work to promote liberty. Not watch another organization dissolve due to petty disagreements over power, control and authority.

    This entire fight is over personal problems. As Lincoln stated, “A house divided against itself cannot stand”. Either we can fight amongst ourselves and do all that we can do to hurt each other, or we can focus on growing, building and promoting liberty. This crap needs to end. There may have been problems with the GOP and Democratic Party, but at least they can internally work together to screw us over. Sadly, we can’t even work together to make things better. Frankly, as a newly registered LP member, I am not too encouraged by any of this to join the LPPA. You guys are like a bunch of pissy children. Go take some pedialyte and put on a diaper. If I wanted to deal with childish behavior, I would have become a teacher.

  342. Lefty Danger Pistolero

    #392 “This means that the Board of Directors is the membership. It elects itself.”

    Of course our members elect our leadership. This is how almost every organization in the country behaves: shareholders; club members; unions; political parties.

    I have already stated that it is ILLEGAL for us to deny membership to anyone who “upholds and affirms our Statement of Principles”. Quite odd, how you continue glossing over that fact.

    “And you are wrong about the LP PA, your own state LP group has an open form of membership. According to the information above, you pay your dues, register to vote as a Libertarian and you’re a member.”

    FALSE. As I’ve repeatedly stated, membership does not mean what you think it means here. Membership allows for a vote. In our state organization (the LPPa), the Board must first vote to recognize you before you are able to cast a vote as a county on LPPa business.

    Currently, many people who are deeply involved in the LPPa are actively shunned at state meetings and not even allowed to speak. At the last such meeting, no recognized county was even allowed to submit new business.

    In York, all are welcomed with open arms. Furthermore, we encourage everyone to be ACTIVE. That is the difference. As someone who has never attended a single meeting of ours, your opinion in the matter carries no relevance whatsoever.

    If it turns out that this new system is NOT working out to the betterment of all, the York County Libertarian Party is dedicated to openness and will REVISE our Constitution and Bylaws to better serve Libertarians in our county. As Mr. Gomez already said, “time tells no lies, and history will judge us.” Perhaps your vision of things will turn out to be the correct path — perhaps not. I think the York County Libertarian Party is on the right track and I will continue to work hard to ensure our growth until empirical evidence tells me otherwise.

    Until such a time as that happens, we carry ultimate authority to shape our own future. The responsibility for any mistakes lies with us, and us alone. We are confident that we will shoulder this burden and that you will certainly be hearing great things about our county in the future.

  343. Erik Viker

    Andy #396: Nah, the Republican Party leaders love the old gent because he always does what they need him to do; lure libertarian-leaning people to keep voting Republican. Ron Paul was nominated every two years by Republican Party voters. His committee chairmanships were appointed by the Republican leaders in congress. He received Republican campaign money and caucused with the Republicans in Congress. He is a registered Republican voter. Do you need to see an elephant tattooed on his right butt cheek? His apparent marginalization was carefully orchestrated by the Republicans to keep the maverick liberty movement in the GOP camp. He’s a valuable member of their carefully engineered stranglehold on government. Libertarians don’t need Republicans to represent LP principles in national debates, we need to challenge the debate commission in court before 2016. That would be a better use of LP resources than ongoing veneration of a Republican politician would be.

    But analyzing the questionable value to the LP of Republican Ron Paul is way off topic here. Contact me via Facebook if you want to have a chat about it.

  344. Andy

    “Erik Viker // Feb 3, 2013 at 10:19 pm

    Andy #396: Nah, the Republican Party leaders love the old gent because he always does what they need him to do; lure libertarian-leaning people to keep voting Republican.”

    I do not agree with you here at all. I’ve attended numerous Ron Paul and Campaign for Liberty meetings and events all over the county, plus I have communicated with many of these people over the internet, and I can say that the majority of these people do NOT come from the rank-and-file Republicans, and most of them do NOT support any mainstream Republican Party candidates. Most of them are more likely to vote minor party or independent candidate or not vote at all than they are to vote for mainstream Republican Party candidates.

    The Libertarian Party received a lot more votes from Ron Paul supporters in this election as compared to the last election when Bob Barr pissed most o them off, and this is a big reason for the increase in votes for the Libertarian Party this time.

  345. Andy

    “He is a registered Republican voter”

    How can he be registered to vote as a Republican in Texas when Texas does not have partisan voter registration?

  346. Steve M

    @400

    Your claim of that it is ILLEGAL for us to deny membership to anyone who “upholds and affirms our Statement of Principles”.

    Is not supported by a reading of your written laws.

    The York County Constitution states

    ARTICLE IV: MEMBERSHIP
    Any individual endorsing the principles of the YCLP may become and remain a member subject to the provisions of the
    Bylaws

    The York County Libertarian Party bylaws state:

    3. After completion of probationary period, passing a majority vote of the Board of Directors to induct the new member. If the applicant does not pass this vote it may be taken again after a period of six months, as needed.

    Where is the written guarantee that your board wont arbitrarily reject a member?

    Compare this to the MONTGOMERY COUNTY LIBERTARIAN COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION

    ARTICLE II. MEMBERSHIP
    Section 1 – Establishing Membership
    Any person who consistently attends and supports Committee functions, who adheres to libertarian principles, and who generally supports the purposes and principles of the
    National Libertarian Party shall be considered a member of the Montgomery County Libertarian Committee.

    ARTICLE II. MEMBERSHIP

    Section 1 – Establishing Membership
    Any person who consistently attends and supports Committee functions, who adheres to libertarian principles, and who generally supports the purposes and principles of the
    National Libertarian Party shall be considered a member of the Montgomery County Libertarian Committee.

    Section 2 – Eligibility for Committee officers
    Any person who is nominated to be an officer of the Committee must be a member in good standing of the Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania, and, unless prohibited by law, a registered Libertarian within the County of his/her residence.

    Section 3 – Dues
    The Committee intends to operate on voluntary contributions. However, the Board of Directors may from time to time determine the amount of dues necessary for membership
    in the Committee, and may determine one or more classes of membership with different amounts of dues for each.

    Section 4 – Termination of Membership
    The Board of Directors shall have the power to suspend a member for cause by a two-thirds vote of the Board. A member may be suspended “for cause” for misrepresenting
    the principles of the Committee, endorsing or campaigning for, in the name of the Committee, a candidate for public office in opposition to one nominated by the Committee or by the State or National Libertarian Party, or for running for office purporting to have been nominated or endorsed by the Committee without having received such nomination or endorsement, or for other reasonable cause. Notice of suspension is subject to written appeal within fifteen days of notification. Failure to appeal shall terminate membership.

    Section 5 – Membership Appeal
    Upon appeal by the member, the Judicial Committee shall hold a hearing concerning the suspension. Following the hearing, the Judicial Committee shall rule either to terminate the membership of the member or to continue the member in good standing. Should the Judicial Committee fail to rule, the member shall continue as a member of the Committee.

    Montgomery Libs say attend some meeting and support the functions of the Montgomery Committee and generally agree with the national libertarian party and you are a member of the Montgomery Libertarian Committee.

    Now to kick you off it has be by cause and a 2/3 vote of the board with the right to appeal to a judicial committee.

    So York requires a majority vote by the Board to be a member and Montgomery assumes if you participate you are a member unless kicked of by the board with cause and a right to appeal the boards decision.

    The Montgomery Rules seem much much more open and fair the the York Rules.

  347. SteveS

    David,

    Some of my plan for the future has been mentioned. One of the things that I am planning is to, with the help of Libertarians across the state, select chairpeople of the various committees, both standing and working. Once selected, these individuals will be operating autonomously.

    I am one of those men who will admit, publicly, that he does not know everything. Fortunately, This realization enables me to find good people who are great at what they do, and who are willing to help. Who am I to micromanage someone who has been studying legislative maneuvering for decades? How bout Membership? I have never really been good at keeping accurate records, it is why I paid an accountant when I ran my business… (to make sure I was not screwing up!)

    What I do have, is an ability to identify problems that need to be fixed, and I have a very good track record of fixing these problems. Currently, Pennsylvania has a great many problems. People say there is not enough work to be found.. To them I say that they have not searched to terribly far or hard, because I can identify hundreds of problems that need to be fixed right here in my own neighborhood! Government does not fix these problems; in fact, government tends to create them or make them worse. There is a better way, a LIBERTARIAN way!

    I have some of the greatest minds in Pennsylvania to help me! The York County group? You might hate them, you may disagree with their methods, and yet, they are one of the most successful organizations in the Libertarian Party! Some call them a cult… I call them effective.

    Patrick Sellers… This man stood up when he did not have to… He stood and stated”This is WRONG and you will not get away with it!” Not once, but many times!

    I was called “a purist, a republican operative, and an anarchist” If you want to know what I consider myself? I will state it right here, clearly. I am a man who will not initiate force or fraud against another for so long as I live, and this applies to all aspects of my life. I am a man who wishes to have government replaced by someone who can actually do the job government was meant to do. Since that job is rather large, I suggest multiple private companies to compete and take charge of these issues.

    I know that the problems where I live are fixable, and are fixed on a regular basis by my own hands. My neighborhood does not need a police force because we all look after each others’ stuff.

    My plan of “Leadership”?? Facilitate discussion and get the bureaucracy out of the way of the very capable people who are running their respective counties! If they need help with the law, they will have a very capable person in charge of finding out whatever is needed and then communicating it to whomever asks.

    This will be the same with all other committees. Oh, and I will make sure that the convention will be in a place that can handle hundreds of Libertarians, because it will be in a place that Libertarians actually want to go, and it will be filled with Libertarians that other Libertarians want to see!

    You want a positive forward motion for the LPPA, There is the simple plan. The people of Pennsylvania need better from the LPPA than what it is receiving.

    Sincerely,

    Steve Scheetz

    P.S. Andy, Just shoot me an E-mail steve@stevescheetz.com and give me a good time to contact you during the day, but before 4PM (I work nights)

  348. Andy

    Erik Viker said: “His apparent marginalization was carefully orchestrated by the Republicans to keep the maverick liberty movement in the GOP camp. He’s a valuable member of their carefully engineered stranglehold on government. Libertarians don’t need Republicans to represent LP principles in national debates, we need to challenge the debate commission in court before 2016. That would be a better use of LP resources than ongoing veneration of a Republican politician would be.”

    I don’t agree with your theory here at all. There really was not much of a maverick liberty movement before Ron Paul started his campaign for the Republican Party’s Presidential nomination in 2007. The Libertarian Party had been going down hill since after the 2000 election, and even in the 2000 election the Libertarian Party’s candidate for President only received around 384,000 votes (and I say this as somebody who was a big Harry Browne supporter in 1996 and in 2000). The number of elected Libertarians was down by 2007. The number of registered Libertarians in the states that have partisan voter registration was down by 2007. Libertarian Party fund raising had gone down by 2007 from what it was in 2000.

    I don’t know what maverick liberty movement you are talking about prior to the kick off of Ron Paul’s campaign in 2007. It certainly wasn’t very big or much of a threat to the establishment.

    You make it sound like the Libertarian Party was doing big things but then Dr. Paul came in and sucked out all of the support. This is FAR from reality.

    Ron Paul got a heck of a lot of people involved in pro-liberty activism. Prior to 2007 I rarely heard anyone talk about the problems caused by the Federal Reserve System. A lot more people are talking about it now, and the primary reason a lot more people are talking about it now is because of Ron Paul. Ron Paul showed a lot of people that a person can oppose the welfare state and support the right to keep and bear arms while at the same time opposing foreign military imperialism and the war on drugs. Ron Paul’s campaigns in 2007-2008 and 2011-2012 got more people to become involved in the pro-liberty movement than the Libertarian Party ever has (and I say this as a Libertarian Party member since 1996).

    A more plausible theory is that the establishment sent Bob Barr in to sabotage the Libertarian Party because they were afraid of the maverick liberty movement that Dr. Paul inspired.

  349. Andy

    Erik Viker said: “Libertarians don’t need Republicans to represent LP principles in national debates, we need to challenge the debate commission in court before 2016.”

    We’ve been battling the Commission on Presidential Debates for years and it has not gotten us anywhere. I believe that they will continue to go to great lengths to keep Libertarian Party candidates out, as well as any other candidates who do not toe the establishment line. I’m not saying that we should give up the fight against the Commission on Presidential Debates, but I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for a Libertarian Party candidate to be included in their debates either.

    So I think that it is good to have people with pro-liberty views go into both the Republican Party and the Democratic Party and challenge the mainstream candidates from these parties in their internal debates.

  350. Manuel Gomez

    http://yorklp.org ? 100% original content, documenting the conceptualization of LOCAL issues from a theoretical and PRACTICAL Libertarian perspective.

    I can see why anonymous trolls would be frightened by the York LP activity and label us a ‘cult’. If you’re not catching flack, you’re not over the target … goes a saying.

    We’ve been operating under our newly instituted bylaws for less than sixty days. I’m proud to be a part of the organizational meritocracy that exists in York. Interestingly enough, I don’t even think the meritocracy aspect is even the highlight of our bylaws, I think it’s the committee structure, but I relent.

    It’s fine to wax poetic and theorize what ‘libertarian is’ and throw money around to validate your self righteous indignation; but in York we get our kicks out of making libertarianism a practical reality by effectuating libertarianism in motion. That is, we don’t linger in comment threads for the next gotcha moment, or sling greenbacks here and there as a barometer of libertarian merit. No. We run candidates, attend meetings, confront local issues, develop relationships with media, and document our activity all along the way. If you can’t cut it like we do, then I suppose it’s OK to diminish our style as ‘cultish’ to allay your own shortcomings.

    It may not be sexy and sensational enough for the big-tent name-dropping crew, but it works and that stands without question.

    Where can I find Steve Meier’s record of activity other than financial contributions?

    Search the minutes for my local municipal meetings; I’m on the ground where it matters most, for years, building relationships, mastering my understanding of local issues and contradictions with the intent of supplanting statist solutions with libertarian ones.

    I’m a hyper-local specialist; and I don’t apologize for that. If only we had more people focused on imbuing libertarian principles through on the ground ACTIVITY in their direct area of influence. Not just running a candidate here and there, but standing as a VISIBLE and ACTIVE libertarian 365 days a year, 24/7; not just when the cameras are on and the state sets you into motion with election calendar dates and deadlines.

    …and we’re definitely not like you self-styled tastemakers who think because you wield money you must necessarily wield influence as well. Not in York. THAT is what has raised the detractors’ ire, that and nothing else.

  351. Steve M

    Manuel, I am hardly anonymous, you have lots of accusations but none have a basis in fact.

    Where as the written law of the York libertarian party differs significantly from the verbal claims of the York Party Leadership and perhaps implementation in practice.

    Do you think, that the York Libertarian Party rules should be above discussion, debate and perhaps petition to change?

    Do you think it is unfair to compare and contrast the bylaws and constitution of the York County Libertarian Party Constitution and Bylaws to other county bylaws?

    Why do you use derogatory terms such as troll rather then discussing the issues and implementations in a civilized way?

    Is your intention to shut down discussion?

  352. Steve M

    Ah think (always dangerous) that Libertarians who want an open, transparent, and free society should also want open, transparent and just (non arbitrary) party organizations.

  353. Steve M

    Manuel,

    I wonder if we asked the campaigns who were recipients of my donations if they would rather I donate my time at the rate it is worth or the cash that I did?

    If you knew who I am, you would be aware that I have argued/lobbied for including activists in the party structure. That their time should be considered as currency as much as well cash is.

  354. Be Rational

    In other LP groups across the US, you sign up, pay the required dues, and you’re a member …

    *** There is no voting into membership and no removal possible. ***

    The members – anyone who chooses to be one is a member – then show up at an annual meeting (sometimes bi-annual) to elect the leadership. The leadership manages the party affairs during the one or two year period between elections.

    As we can see with several PA paranoid cult county groups – it is the leadership the elects and removes the members and elects and removes itself.

    This is backwards. It is how personality cults, oligarchs and dictatorial governments operate.

    Imagine Congress electing itself and choosing its own members. Only those elected to Congress were called voters when the voters vote for Congress.

    That’s what your York county system is doing.

    Other county groups have similar rules. Montgomery county having a process to vote out members it doesn’t like – such as those who oppose the leadership – is just as bad. And the LP PA rule of having all memberships expire on the same date no matter when paid coupled with a 180 day membership requirement to vote at conventions is far to limiting.

    The York county group is operating to protect its leadership at all costs. The leaders are obviously afraid of outsiders. They have put in place paranoid restrictions.

    The York county group is not worthy of the name Libertarian. They are making a mockery of libertarian principles. The system they’ve set up is worse than anything said or done by Bob Barr during his campaign. It’s a true shame.

  355. Be Rational

    So, what’s happening in PA?

    The aswer is that several leaders – the state chair and those in charge of several county groups – are all fighting to control their tiny little groups and to stay in power. They will lie and obfuscate on the internet and in person. The current state chair needs to be replaced. He’s an embarrassment for the things he’s said and done beyond his paranoid institutional attempts to perpetuate his leadership against the possibility of the membership removing him.

    However, his style is being emulated in a paranoid attempt by leaders in York and Montgomery counties – and apparently a few others – to set up dictatorial organization structures that will completely insulate the leaders from the members that are supposed to choose them.

    The worst is York county. They have reversed the usual democratic process the governs groups everywhere, that the members choose the leaders.

    In York county the leaders have declared themselves to be the only members. They only recognize those they want as members. They chose themselves. Everyone else is locked out.

    When the leadership fails, the membership should remove them.

    LP organizations must belong to the members – All of the members. Leaders serve the members. Leaders are selected by the members. All of the leaders – in this case the 12 person Board of Directors – should be subject to removal by the members at an annual meeting.

    In York county, the leadership elects itself and refuses to recognize those who are actually the members. They are so afraid of their own incompetence that they refuse to stand in front of all the members and face the possibility of being replaced at the end of a one year term.

    This kind of paranoid cult is not tolerable and should not be allowed to call itself a libertarian organization.

  356. Erik Viker

    Jesus tapdancing Christ, Andy. You might want to be rude to everybody here by hijacking the thread to praise your closet-theocrat Republican hero, but I will not. It’s clear that this discussion is about the LPPA chair “campaign.” I have already invited you to seek me out on Facebook if you want to discuss how a fringe Republican politician caused a slowdown in LP growth. Or maybe you can post an article here entitled something like “Ron Paul: Hot or Not?” and perhaps I’ll comment beneath it.

  357. Erik Viker

    SteveS @405, your decentralization committee model is a good approach for Libertarian activists who would prefer to work with colleagues removed from intrusive officer/board oversight, especially when there’s no bylaw provision for excessive control from the top down.

    You write “What I do have, is an ability to identify problems that need to be fixed, and I have a very good track record of fixing these problems.” Can you provide LPPA members with some examples from your history, relevant to political party development? Can you tell us how as chair you would tailor your fixing activity to the expectations outlined in the LPPA bylaws? I am especially interested in your idea for the balance between protest-type activity and the election-process-participation purposes of the LPPA as defined in the bylaws. Thanks.

  358. Andy

    “Erik Viker // Feb 4, 2013 at 9:09 am

    Jesus tapdancing Christ, Andy. You might want to be rude to everybody here by hijacking the thread to praise your closet-theocrat Republican hero, but I will not. ”

    I was NOT the one who brought up Ron Paul. I’d have to scroll up through the posts to check for sure, but I’m pretty sure that it was YOU who brought up Ron Paul.

  359. Andy

    Erik Viker said: “I have already invited you to seek me out on Facebook”

    I’m not signed up on Facebook. I’ve never been signed up on Facebook, and I’ve got little desire to be signed up on Facebook.

    “if you want to discuss how a fringe Republican politician caused a slowdown in LP growth.”

    So you are saying that Ron Paul caused a slow down in LP growth!?!?!??! WTF??? The Libertarian Party was SHRINKING at the time that Ron Paul launched his campaign in 2007. The Libertarian Party was growing from 1994-2000, but after the 2000 election the party began a downward spiral. How in the hell did Ron Paul cause the LP to have a slow down in growth when the LP was not growing when he launched his campaign in the Republican primaries in 2007?

  360. Erik Viker

    Andy@417. No Facebook? Then start a new discussion here by arranging to post an article in praise of everything your favorite Republican politican did to make the Libertarian Party grow in membership and votes. But stop naming me in your efforts to derail the actual topic of this discussion thread even further. Thank you.

  361. Erik Viker

    I originally brought up Republican Ron Paul in context because his Philadelphia rally was the reason why various LPPA members did not attend the 2012 annual meeting. Then I reminded us that he was off topic. Twice.

  362. Marc Montoni

    Personally I have seen quite damn well enough of chairs who think they were “given a mandate” by virtue of being elected.

    The reality, in Libertarian circles anyway, is that you weren’t given a mandate at all. Rather, no one else was willing to carry the red-hot potato for two years and as the last man standing, you were elected.

    Over many years of watching chairs let their position go to their heads, I have come to favor the “weak chair” model — which is actually what one would understand after a careful reading of Robert’s Rules.

    The purpose of the chair is to facilitate meetings and to carry out the will of the committee. Little more.

    A truly good chairman is one who delegates his duties to other people.

    He shouldn’t speak to the press — rather, he should appoint a volunteer to be the party’s spokesman.

    He shouldn’t be forming local affiliates — he should appoint a small team of volunteers to a committee tasked with that purpose.

    He should not be the writer of the state party newsletter or the primary contributor to the blog — he should appoint a Communications Committee to handle those things.

    The chair should then make sure those appointees let the Board know what they’re doing at meeting time or with monthly reports to the Board.

    If the chairman has controversy swirling about him, then that chairman is doing entirely too much.

  363. Ed Reagan

    Be Rathional @412

    Tom Stevens Chair of the LPPA is also the Chair of the Northampton County LP which is an invite only club.

    It appears most of the new county and regional committes set up Tom Stevens are following his Northampton County model.

    Even more draconian is Tom Stevens setting up parallel county and regional committes that he then gets recognzed as the “offical” LPPA affilate.

    Both Montco and York have been told that Tom Steven is planning on doing the same both Montco and York, if he wins re-election to LPPA Chair.

    This is why the Libertarians of Pennsylvania must elect someone other than Tom Stevens for LPPA Chairman.

    I fully expect Tom Stevens to keep talking about the ballot access win, while he tries to hide who he really is.

    Remember Hilter made the trains run on time, but it was his other actions that lead to his downfall.

  364. Wes Wagner

    MM @420

    Careful… you are getting dangerously close to endorsing the Oregon model of libertarian “governance” ;)

  365. Dr. Tom Stevens

    There has been talk of my alleged desire to undermine local chapters in the LPPA and to replace them with friendly newcomers and/or to control them from above. This talk is all trash and not based on reality.

    Mark Axinn spoke above of my complete commitment to the local automony of all chapters and that he agreed with my position. I have told all local chapters that while I helped them get started, that now they are on their own to set their own agenda, endorse local candidates and decide on the events best suited to their local needs without any interference by the LPPA Board of Directors or State Chair. We are here to help and no more, and only if asked.

    There has been talk of plans to undermine the Montgomery County LP after April. This is completely fabricated. While I don’t share the Vote For Noboby and anarchist leanings of many of its members, I appreciate their local activism and their independent spirit.

    Reference was made to a rival Montgomery County Libertarian Party Meetup Group. No such group ever existed. Because of Steve Scheetz opposition’s to Gary Johnson, the Board of Directors of the LPPA authorized the formation of a Montgomery County Libertarians for Gary Johnson group that had the following welcome message:

    “This group is for liberty-minded individuals who live in and around Montgomery County, Pennsylvania who support Libertarian Presidential Candidate Gary Johnson for President of these United States in 2012.”

    That group was never intended to represent the Montgomery County LP or to supplant it. Ivan Glinski, the Assistant Organizer of that meetup, attended Montgomery County LP meetings and its Holiday Party. That meetup group has now been dissolved.

    The Bucks County LP group was inactive and chaired by a woman who only owned a bicyle. No reports were ever filed and after one year, the group was automatically dissolved pursuant to the LPPA bylaws. A new Organizational Meeting was held, officers elected and the former Chair was appointed Yardley Representative in the new, thriving organization.

    It is so time-consuming to address all the misinformation published here and elsewhere. Very non-productive use of people’s time, in my opinion.

  366. Be Rational

    Northampton, Montco, York … all of these invigtation only groups operate on the model of paranoid cults.

    The LP PA needs a new chair.

    LP PA county affilates should be required to operate on an open model, allowing all members to elect or replace the leaders and not the converse.

  367. NewFederalist

    “Remember Hilter made the trains run on time…”

    I thought it was Mussolini who was credited with that.

  368. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 424

    Be Rational writes: LP PA county affilates should be required to operate on an open model,

    Stevens response: The LPPA is not a top-down dictatorship. We allow all local County Committees to develop their own bylaws and leadership structure within certain minimal guidelines. We don’t require local affiliates to do anything, except to report to the Board on a quarterly basis. Decentralization and soveriegnty for County Committees are my only guidelines. The York LP is free to have membership requirements as they see fit without interference from any outsiders.

  369. Lefty Danger Pistolero

    #404 “Is not supported by a reading of your written laws.”

    Incorrect. The membership must comport themselves in accordance with our Statement of Principles, and conduct business in accordance with our Constitution and Bylaws. It is grounds for removal if they do not. Ergo, “Any individual endorsing the principles of the YCLP may become and remain a member…” may not be abridged by the membership without breaching this trust. Our membership forms reflect this stance… but you wouldn’t know that since you have never attended any York County meetings or events.

    “So York requires a majority vote by the Board to be a member and Montgomery assumes if you participate you are a member unless kicked of by the board with cause and a right to appeal the boards decision.”

    The Montgomery rules also have no clear delineation between members and guests. Votes are arbitrarily assigned and counted. How does one even determine quorum? I’m not sure how they run their meetings but they seem to be doing just fine. It’s their responsibility to make sure their party runs smoothly, and it’s not my place to judge their Bylaws.

    Since we run an above-board operation in York, we require that the Secretary keep active membership lists for everyone for notification of events and activism, and for purposes of determining quorum for meetings.

    We have no right to appeal because we do not have any provisions for “kicking out”. What we have is suspension, for cause, and it is temporary and ALL decisions are arbitrated by the membership as a whole.

    #409 “Where as the written law of the York libertarian party differs significantly from the verbal claims of the York Party Leadership and perhaps implementation in practice.”

    False. I have quoted directly from the YCLP Constitution and Bylaws in every post.

    “Do you think, that the York Libertarian Party rules should be above discussion, debate and perhaps petition to change?”

    They have been discussed and argued rationally. What you are doing now is arguing ad nauseum. You have no cause to petition for change — that right belongs to libertarians in York County alone. If sufficient grievance is raised, rest assured, our system will change.

    #410 We are completely open and transparent. We have public meetings which are minuted, and soon to be made public on our website in PDF format.

    #411 No one cares to hear your self-aggrandizement. It has no bearing on this conversation. This is a sad attempt at an appeal to authority and fallacious from it’s onset. I reject it.

    #412 & #413 I reject this abstraction categorically as ad hominem and an appeal to consequences. This is nothing but defamatory speech and not a shred of it true. My refutations of your points are well documented. Concede your argument or find a new one, preferably one which does not rely on circular logic or false interpretation. It grows tiresome.

    Know what I mean, Vern?

  370. SteveS

    RE 412 and 413 Your charges against Montco are so LUDICROUSLY off base.. Please, if you know anyone at all who has ever been kicked out of Montco for ANY reason, please mention it.

    423 is another laughable post. In Tom’s announcement regarding the new Philly Libertarian Committee of which he is the chair, he even states that he invited the attendees. He suggests that he invited all Philadelphia Libertarians, I know, from an earlier post that Philadelphia resident Richard Schwarz was NOT invited. North Hampton County of which Tom is the chair, County resident Libertarians were banned from the group.

    This is NOT a fabrication, this is provable fact.

    The Montgomery County group that Tom says no longer exists is scheduled to have a meeting today if anyone wants to go… http://www.meetup.com/Montgomery-County-Libertarians/

    The name of the group “Montgomery County Libertarians” now has a title “closing down Gary Johnson meetup group” This after I wrote to the LPPA board 3 times asking why the LPPA chair would create a group in direct competition with the already recognized Montgomery County Group.

    We will just have to see if it is still there next week.

    By the way, Please feel free to name names Tom Stevens.. Who on the board voted to authorize this new county committee?

    AND, we are all still waiting for that number, in writing, of dues paying members as of this past board meeting along with the list of recognized county organizations along with the officers’ contact information.

    I do agree with Thomas R Stevens JD on one thing… The answering of misinformation is very time consuming, boring, and it would be much better if the State Chair would simply do his job instead of creating secret meetings, hiding public information, and working against county committees.

    The irony illustrated in all of this is that Tom Stevens would not have been contested if he had not worked so hard to censor, ban, and attempt to stop Libertarians from advancing the cause of Liberty. Most of us really did not care about the happenings within the LPPA, only the happenings in our respective counties. Tom changed all of that. Now there are quite a number of Libertarians paying attention, Tom.

    Sincerely,

    Steve Scheetz

  371. James Babb

    @413 & 424

    Be Rational: “However, his style is being emulated in a paranoid attempt by leaders in York and Montgomery counties – and apparently a few others – to set up dictatorial organization structures that will completely insulate the leaders from the members that are supposed to choose them.”

    BR, Your remarks were brought to my attention. MontCo as a “dictatorial organization???” LOL! I think you meant to say “Northampton County.”

    Please review the Montco Bylaws (http://files.meetup.com/197261/Montco%20Bylaws.pdf) that Steve M quoted above and then explain your reasons for such insults.

    Without a full retraction, you can’t be taken seriously. I’m assuming it’s just a careless mistake on your part, with so many tangents and hundreds of posts here.

  372. Be Rational

    @427 You have refuted nothing. The facts you have presented have in fact proven that what I’ve written is true:

    1) The York county LP board elects itself. It is a paranoid, exclusive cult.

    2) The actual LP members are excluded from participation in election of the board.

    3) The board pretends that only individuals on the board are members of the group and no one else is allowed.

    Having an open membership where: “all members of the LP PA who reside in the couty represented are allowed to choose the direrctors and officers of the county group at a convention of meeting to be held annually” – should be a requirement for affilation of LP county affiliates of the LP PA.

    Setting minimum standards for openness and democratic operating proceedures does not constitute interference in the management of the day to day affairs of the county group.

  373. Ed Reagan

    Since Tom Stevens did not address this, I will repost it, incase he did not see it the first time.

    =====================

    Tom Stevens wrote: “Steve Scheetz did not obtain a single petition signature for Gary Johnson or our Statewide Candidates…”

    Tom since you are so concerned about how many signatures Steve Scheetz collected on the nomination petitions for Libertarian Party ballot access in Pennsylvania, please provide us the number of signature you personally collected on nomination petitions for Libertarian Party ballot acccess in Pennsylvania. Also since the ballot petitions are part of the public record due to the court case, please also provide a link to scanned copies of the actual nomination petitons you circulated.

    Some how I feel you will have collected the exact same number og signatures as Steve Scheetz. Please prove me wrong. Otherwise you are just the pot calling the kettle black.

    We are all waiting patiently for your documented proof.

  374. Ed Reagan

    Re 424:

    Stevens wrote: The LPPA is not a top-down dictatorship.

    Then why are you often referred to as Chairman Cartman by many of the county committees?

  375. Lefty Danger Pistolero

    #430 False. Again, I reject your defamatory claims categorically as ad hominem and an appeal to consequence. Your logic is circular and your reasoning flawed.

    2) A requirement of the Board of Directors is that they are registered Libertarians.

    I accept your concession graciously, Vern.

  376. Be Rational

    @429 Yes, the Montco LP group seems to be more open, however, no group should have the right to remove an LP member of the group for any reason. As long as they’ve signed the pledge, registered to vote LP or paid dues as required, they should be members of the group with the right to vote for the managing committee, board or directors and officers at an annual meeting or convention.

    It may be that all the Montco group needs to do is repeal the provision that allows removing members.

    Removing officers and directors for cause is one thing, however LP members are above the leaders and managing committees. The managing committees and officers must not have the power to choose or remove members.

    It is the members who must have the power to choose, elect, and remove the officers, managers, directors and committee or board.

  377. Ed Reagan

    Be Rational @ 430

    Be Rational wrote:
    Having an open membership where: “all members of the LP PA who reside in the couty represented are allowed to choose the direrctors and officers of the county group at a convention of meeting to be held annually” – should be a requirement for affilation of LP county affiliates of the LP PA.

    Ed Reagan states: Well if the LPPA had this rule, than Tom Stevens could not Chair counties he does not live in. You see Tom’s modus operandi is to setup new county and regional groups, that he Chairs by cobbling together enough warm bodies to get to the magical number of 12 warm bodies so the committee gets a board vote. Even if this includes bringing in members from other counties.

    For example my county Northampton County, where I can not join because Tom and his cult members have not invtited me to join, since I do not drink Tom’s Kool-Aid. They lost a member and Tom grabbed a member from the Chester County LP with the bride of titles. That gentleman is now a board member of the Northampton County LP and at the state level one of Tom’s “Executive Assistants”.

    How many other State Chairs have “Executive Assistants’?

    Tom has a small troop of “Executive Assistants” currently. Though it is not clear what their role is.

  378. Be Rational

    @433 Lefty Danger Pistolero aka Vern

    You are truly obtuse.

    It is your nonsense that is cicular and simplistic. You actually respond just as a brainwashed cult follower would do. You think that the board is the membership because the board has declared it so.

    That is exactly the same as Congress only allowing itself to vote for members of Congress. Congress declates that the only voters allowed to vote in the US are those elected to Congress.

    Yes, you are truly obtuse.

    The board is not the membership.

    Every Libertarian in York county is already a member. The board must be chosen by the larger body in order to be representative. The board acts as representatives of the members. It is the larger body that constitutes the membership.

  379. Be Rational

    @435

    I agree with you completely about what Tom Stevens is doing . He should not be allowed to chair, or be a member of the managing committee or board of these county groups outside his home county.

    I have already called for him to be replaced at the next LP PA convention. It is up to the members of the LP PA to find a good candidate for chair and get behind that person.

    Hopefully every member of the LP PA will be allowed to vote for the officers and managing committee or board, and not just the board itself. It is that method of exclusion which is not libertarian and should be opposed, as it exists in York county, Northampton and any others which have been alluded to but not named.

  380. Be Rational

    @437 Lefty Danger Pistolero aka Vern

    “False, ad hominem, and previously refuted. Your concession is accepted.” = “I win. So there. Ha ha on you.”

    Come back when you finish Kindergarten, Lefty aka Vern.

  381. Erik Viker

    Marc Montoni @420 (props for scoring that spot, dude). Your description of a state chair is what I have favored for years. May I quote you in other venues?

  382. SteveS

    434. I asked before, I will ask again. Please demonstrate the member or members who have been rejected by the Montgomery County Libertarian Committee.

    Also, the provision is only there to cancel membership of any member who initiates force or fraud against another. Fortunately, we have not had any members in Montgomery County who fit that description.

    In fact, I never imagined that I would ever meet someone calling himself/herself a Libertarian who blatantly ignores the pledge, and if I had not met such an individual, I STILL would not believe it.

    Sincerely,

    Steve Scheetz

  383. Erik Viker

    Person hiding behind the fake name Be Rational @ 438, are you an LPPA member? As an LPPA member you might have some standing to raise concerns about the LP committee in your county of residence, or could establish one if none exists. If you are not an LPPA member you have no standing to raise concerns about how a county LP committee operates, nor do you have standing to call for any LPPA officer’s replacement in convention.

  384. Be Rational

    Actually, every LP PA member has the right to demand that minimum standards be applied to any group that seeks to be recognized or to continue to be recognized as an affiliate of the LP PA.

    Therefore, I call for all members of the LP PA to demand and amend the bylaws of the LP PA so that every LP PA county affiliate is required to recognize all members of the LP PA residing within their county as members of that county affiliate with all rights and privileges including the right to elect the managing board or committee or officers of the affiliate to be elected at a meeting or convention of the entire membership to be held annually at a date and place that is announced and notice mailed to all such members at least 60 days in advance.

    The National LP should set minimum standards of the same kind for its State LP affiliates.

  385. Lefty Danger Pistolero

    #444

    It is doubtful that they would be able to do so considering most groups were founded under a more lassiez faire system, where “the autonomy of affiliate and sub-affiliate parties shall not be abridged…” (national LP Bylaws and Convention Rules: Article VI; Section 5).

    It would likely take an act of coercion to “require” anything of parties established under the older auspices of the national LP. York, for instance, and I’m sure Montgomery as well, will not surrender our autonomy by top-down edict without a fight.

  386. Be Rational

    Having standards for affiliates does not constitute losing autonomy. Your group can still exist as an autonomous cult in York county. It will just be disaffiliated and no longer part of the LP PA.

    The LP PA will then be free to recognize a new LP York county affiliate that includes all LP PA members in York county.

    This bylaws change is not a top down edict but is rather a bottom up edict. It recognizes that the individual member has the right to control the county group and not the othe way round.

    It’s time for the individual members to assert control over their LP party groups and remove incompetent leaders.

  387. Lefty Danger Pistolero

    #446

    Two organizations of the same, or similar names, cannot exist within the same operational area. Especially when one of those has minor party status in said operational area and their foundational documentation is filed with the courthouse.

    Additionally, we are already recognized. We cannot be “unrecognized”. Therefore we maintain sole authority to nominate candidates within York County under the Libertarian Party label.

    There can be only one. Check the Bylaws of the LP and the LPPa, paying special attention to “functional division”.

  388. James Babb

    “Be Rational,” I’m still waiting for your justification or apology for accusing MontCo “leaders” of a “paranoid attempt…to set up [a] dictatorial organization.” This is a rather harsh accusation, that should not go unchallenged. Either back it up or retract it. Please offer a single shred of evidence or even hearsay.

    In my 10 years, I’ve never even seen a reason to consider removing a member for cause. To even use the word “leaders” in MontCo” is a stretch. Folks here do lead by example, but party officers in MontCo are mere facilitators when it comes to party business. Anyone can bring an idea for an op to our group for consideration. Why are you making these false statements? Is there a reason for masking your identity, “Be Rational?”

  389. James Babb

    While I’m here, I’d also like to clarify the issue of candidates in MontCo. Some folks here may be under the impression that MontCo is a “protest organization” (whatever that means). We do engage in educational activities, outreach and direct action, but we also support libertarian LP candidates. In the past 10 years, MontCo Libertarians have probably run for more offices, at all levels, than any other Pennsylvania committee. Precinct level, municipal, state rep, state senate, US Congress, even Governor… I myself have run for state rep two times. It can be a lot of fun.

    You can bet that when we run a workshop on running for office, we have ample experience to do so, in fact far more than the “doctor” from New York that issued his “extraordinary alert.”

  390. Erik Viker

    Person hiding behind the fake name Be Rational @ 444, I’ll ask again: are you an LPPA member? Because if you are, you can use established LPPA procedures to raise your many concerns. And if you are not, all your calling for this and that is little more than blowhard clowning. What LPPA member would take seriously the “calls for action” of a cowardly stranger on the internet?

  391. Ed Reagan

    On January 27, 2013 Tom Stevens sent an email the LPPA_BB Yahoo group with the subject line of “A Challenging Situation”.

    That message was utilized to attack the Montco LP, the York LP, Steve Scheetz, Dave Moser and myself, while also touting the achievements of Tom Stevens. This was sent via the official communications channel of the LPPA that Tom Stevens is the sole moderator of and that Tom uses as his personal bully pulpit.

    In the first sentence of that message Tom Stevens said, “Since I was elected State Chair in April, membership in the LPPA is up nearly 100%”

    This is an outright lie since the membership of the LPPA had fallen 15.9% between when Tom Stevens took office in April 2012 and January 1, 2013.

    =================================
    Tom Stevens LPPA Membership Totals as of 1/1/13:
    =================================
    13 Life Members
    125 Other Members
    138 Total Members
    Membership was 164 when Tom took office in April, 2012, a 15.9% decrease.

  392. Erik Viker

    Because the LPPA operates on a calendar membership cycle, all memberships expire on 12/31 and need to be renewed before being counted again as active, except for the 13 of us who have Life Member status. The best measure of membership fluctuation is a sample taken each year on December 31. How does the total on 12/31/12 compare to the total on 12/31/11? And as if it should matter, what part of that change can be attributed to a chair who began serving in April?

    We also need to remember that correlation is not causation. A chair cannot take credit for an increase (or blame for a decrease) in membership, because any number of unmeasured factors may have gone into each individual’s decision to become a member. Maybe causation can be established if new members sign an affidavit stating “Chairman Whatsisname has inspired me to become a member” but that would be very silly.

  393. Be Rational

    @448 “In my 10 years, I’ve never even seen a reason to consider removing a member for cause. To even use the word “leaders” in MontCo” is a stretch. ” – JB

    Ah yes. I’ve seen this line of exempting oneself from responsibility before.

    Example: The State has a law that makes it a crime with a fine and imprisonment for unmarried individuals of the opposite sex to cohabitate or engage in sexual activity. They refuse to repeal the law relying on the claim that it hasn’t been used in 10 years or more.

    Then, sometime later, the chief of police in a major city begins to use that very statute to force his targeted enemies on the police force to resign.

    You should repeal your bylaws provisions that allow the party to intimidate, control or remove the individual members.

  394. James Babb

    Well, “Be Rational” anonymous troll, we gave you a chance to correct your “mistake.” Now the true nature of your character has been revealed.

    Even the remote MontCo hater Steve M (in comment 404) says that “The Montgomery Rules seem much much more open and fair…”

    Is there an LP affiliate anywhere with a more open and inviting membership policy? Show me, or kindly shuffle off.

  395. NewFederalist

    @425… you rotten fucking nameless troll… you’re right … it was Mussolini not Hitler.

  396. Steve M

    @427 lefty,

    unless your statement of principles differs from the one found here http://www.lp.org/platform

    STATEMENT OF PRINCIPLES

    We, the members of the Libertarian Party, challenge the cult of the omnipotent state and defend the rights of the individual.

    We hold that all individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives, and have the right to live in whatever manner they choose, so long as they do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to live in whatever manner they choose.

    Governments throughout history have regularly operated on the opposite principle, that the State has the right to dispose of the lives of individuals and the fruits of their labor. Even within the United States, all political parties other than our own grant to government the right to regulate the lives of individuals and seize the fruits of their labor without their consent.

    We, on the contrary, deny the right of any government to do these things, and hold that where governments exist, they must not violate the rights of any individual: namely, (1) the right to life — accordingly we support the prohibition of the initiation of physical force against others; (2) the right to liberty of speech and action — accordingly we oppose all attempts by government to abridge the freedom of speech and press, as well as government censorship in any form; and (3) the right to property — accordingly we oppose all government interference with private property, such as confiscation, nationalization, and eminent domain, and support the prohibition of robbery, trespass, fraud, and misrepresentation.

    Since governments, when instituted, must not violate individual rights, we oppose all interference by government in the areas of voluntary and contractual relations among individuals. People should not be forced to sacrifice their lives and property for the benefit of others. They should be left free by government to deal with one another as free traders; and the resultant economic system, the only one compatible with the protection of individual rights, is the free market.

    then the verbiage: “Any individual endorsing the principles of the YCLP may become and remain a member…” may not be abridged by the membership without breaching this trust.

    You might be assuming it but it is part of your written laws.

    If I am incorrect please show me a the relevent statement of principles.

  397. Steve M

    Lefty,

    Perhaps you need to show us exactly word for word from the York Party documents or from the Libertarian Party documents how you get to your position.

  398. Stewart Flood

    Marc @420,

    The irony is that by being a “weak” chair you actually become a “strong” chair. I agree completely with what you wrote. Our chair in South Carolina (actually our last two) fit your description exactly.

  399. Steve M

    @456 I can’t recall hating any county, in any state…. just don’t like the silly non-libertarian, anti-freedom, dictatorial rules that basically, state we don’t trust our own associated party voters..

  400. Steve M

    Erik Viker, there would be 14 life time members but I turned it down for the donation I made in congratulations for the successful defense of the Johnson ballot status. I also made a donation, during the defense asking that it be used to buy lunch for the volunteers.

  401. Erik Viker

    Steve M @ 464: Verily I say unto you, rejoice and be glad, for great will be your reward in heaven.

  402. Lefty Danger Pistolero

    #459

    Our statement of principles is exactly the same as National’s… word for word. It is located here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/120906965/York-County-Libertarian-Party#fullscreen

    All members are expected to uphold and affirm our Constitution and Bylaws when discharging their duties as members (essentially, voting). Our Constitution states anyone upholding and affirming our SoP may become a member subject to the provisions of the Bylaws.

    Ergo, anyone who does not advocate the use of force or fraud (and a surprising number of “libertarians” do) may become a member of the York County Libertarian Party. To deny an applicant for personal reasons can be considered a breach of this trust. I would certainly raise it as such.

    Since no one seems inclined to ask the ‘why?’ of the matter and would rather assume we’re a power-hungry bunch of hypocrites, I’ll just go ahead and elucidate:

    There are many reasons the York County Constitution and Bylaws have taken this shape this year. The York County Libertarian Party has been under constant threat, mostly from the LPPa. Not only did the LPPa attempt to illegally dissolve our party — several times — but they (read: Lou Jasikov) attempted to create factions within the local Tea Parties to come pay their dues and take us over. We have testimony from those very people — one of whom we still sponsored for membership at or last business meeting. Their attempt may have failed but the vulnerability remained.

    Why would the LPPa go so far to attack one of its own affiliate groups? Well, it is because we’ve been some of the loudest voices protesting what is going on at our state level. We kept the heat on former LPPa Chair Lou Jasikov. We were the only group at convention last year to raise questions about Mr. Stevens’ history and bring up concerns about his validity as Chairman. As full dues paying members of the LPPa the York County delegation is shunned at LPPa meetings, and not permitted to sit as equals at the main table, but shunted off to a far smaller table separate from the main group. It’s all very petty…

    I could go on for pages about the indignities York has gone through, and I’m sure other counties have similar tales. We advocate all county groups begin tightening their membership structure because the current environment in the Libertarian Party is ripe for political opportunism, from within or without. If our current language is found to be ripe for abuse by our leadership we will change it. Given that not sixty days have yet passed, I think it is a little premature for accusation or abstraction.

  403. Voter

    Gee, I wonder how these Libertarians would govern in Pennsylvania if elected.

    *checks how the LPPA governs itself*

    *vomits*

    No thank you! I’ll keep voting Republicrat.

  404. Lefty Danger Pistolero

    #467 We’re working on it. We are so fiercely independent as Libertarians that we sometimes forget that our own backyards are not the only thing that needs attention.

    Honestly, I blame the openness of our structure for the rottenness which has been allowed to fester at our heart. If every person who claimed to be libertarian were truly Libertarian, you would not see such a mess. Rather, we would all work independently promoting liberty, have no need of so-called “purity tests”, and our LPPa structure would be mostly ceremonial.

  405. Steve M

    @467…. you mean they like how the republican party kicked the Paul delegates out of the republican convention? more like they will stay home.

  406. Andy

    “Stephen VanDyke // Feb 2, 2013 at 2:42 am

    @Andy:

    That project did not materialize as it should have due to several reasons I won’t get into here.”

    I recall you disappearing with $10,000 in donations and then popping up years later with an “I fucked up story.” about how you needed the money so you spent it all on your personal living expenses and did not have the time to build the website, you know, the reason for which people donated money to you.

    Then years after this you pop back up with a shitty looking new version of Hammer of Truth.

    “You can also go ahead and fault me for raising nearly $1M for Badnarik’s Campaign and he never became president. Or $250K for Peirce’s campaign and he never became governor of Ohio.”

    Oh man, come off it. I don’t know about the Peirce campaign, but you were not the sole reason that the Michael Badnarik campaign raised $1 million. I donated $100 to that campaign and you did not have a damn thing to do with my donation. I mean get serious, $1 million was all the campaign raised. Do you expect everyone to believe that you personally raised every penny of that $1 million? I’d wager that you were only a small factor in that.

    “Let’s focus on what’s ahead and learn from what has passed (wins *and* fails).”

    So let’s just sweep the $10,000 in donations for nothing done under the rug, right?

    “PS- where’s your resume so I can return the favor and kick your teeth in over all your failures?”

    I’ve never scammed people out of $10,000.

    “324 Stephen VanDyke // Feb 2, 2013 at 3:17 am

    @Andy

    Let me say this about LibertyMix: one day I’ll launch a new and useful project there, and then a lot of do-nothing haters are going to be ultra-pissed because even after six years of…”

    People donated to Liberty Mix 6-7 years ago, they never got a damn thing, and now you are say that one day you’ll actually deliver something. Gee, I wonder if all of those donors would have donated had they known that this would happen.

    It’s not like there was even an effort to put together Liberty Mix and it failed. The people donated money for the project and got NOTHING. There was never any effort to return the money.

    So nobody can say, “Well golly gee, at least he tried.”

    “…it STILL has AMAZING name recognition.”

    Scams should not be forgotten.

  407. Andy

    “Erik Viker // Feb 4, 2013 at 10:11 am

    Andy@417. No Facebook? Then start a new discussion here by arranging to post an article in praise of everything your favorite Republican politican did to make the Libertarian Party grow in membership and votes. But stop naming me in your efforts to derail the actual topic of this discussion thread even further. Thank you.”

    I’m not signed up as a writer here, so I can’t post new articles, also, if I was a writer here such an article may be considered to be an editorial rather than a news article, so it may violate the terms for being a writer here.

    Regardless, threads often go off into different discussions, and I don’t think that this topic is horribly off topic as there was a lot of cross participation with Libertarian Party members getting involved in the Ron Paul campaign.

    Also, since you mention it, I actually have run into quite a few people who have joined the Libertarian Party because of Ron Paul, and I’m not just talking about those who joined from when he ran for President under the Libertarian Party’s banner in 1988, I’ve encountered several Libertarian Party members who told me they joined the Libertarian Party after finding out about it from Ron Paul’s campaigns for the Republican Party’s Presidential nominations in 2007-2008 and 2011-2012.

    So yes, even as a Republican Ron Paul has had a positive effect on the Libertarian Party.

    “419 Erik Viker // Feb 4, 2013 at 10:15 am

    I originally brought up Republican Ron Paul in context because his Philadelphia rally was the reason why various LPPA members did not attend the 2012 annual meeting. Then I reminded us that he was off topic. Twice.”

    Considering how little the typrical Libertarian Party affiliated accomplishes, I don’t blame people for attending the Ron Paul rally instead.

    I’ve been involved in the Libertarian Party since 1996, and one of the things that frustrates me is the lack of outreach activities from most LP affiliates. They seem to be more interested in preaching to the choir or debating among themselves than they are in growing the party and movement. I’ve seen a lot more real world political activism out of the Ron Paul / Campaign for Liberty groups than I do from most LP affiliates.

  408. Erik Viker

    Andy @ 473-474. Dude, if you are so desperate to rub Republican Ron Paul’s bunions in public, don’t expect me participate. I promote Libertarian Party candidates in office who will advance Libertarian principles in public policy, as an alternative to Republocratic schemes to control people. I’ve known all about the old guy since 1987 and he has failed to regain my trust. You should ask yourself why you are so desperate to venerate him at me.

  409. Patrick Henry Sellers

    Ron Paul has done more to advance the cause of liberty with his 2 recent campaigns than any registered Libertarian. Think about how many people are now aware of what the Fed has been doing to us for a 100 years. We even have lummies like Glen Beck seemingly understanding it.

    When was the last time a Libertarian candidate or elected official was seen on national television talking about bringing all the troops home, closing down 5 cabinet level departments before breakfast or blowback?

    Compare the thousands of young people Ron Paul drew at college campuses to the Gary Johnson rallies where you could count the people with your fingers and have one left over for picking your nose. And what did he talk to them about? Pure libertarian philosophy. Tell me that ain’t advancing the cause.

  410. Erik Viker

    Some people may believe “idolize and vote for fringe Republican politician” equals “advancing the cause of liberty,” but I am not one of those people. I don’t even think “advancing the cause of liberty” means anything measurable. I prefer seeing Libertarian principles in public policy at every level of government possible, which is best achieved by promoting trustworthy Libertarian Party candidates who will work to bring Libertarian principles to public policy. Others’ interests and goals may differ.

  411. Stephen VanDyke - HAMMER OF TRUTH

    @472

    Andy, you know very little and are a big mouth.

    I have made every concerted and conscious effort to repay everyone who contributed because it’s the right thing to do. Sadly, it’s detractors like you who clearly WERE NEVER EVEN INVOLVED INVOLVED who insist on distorting the facts years later FROM THE SIDELINES.

    You want to paint me as something I am not, and you will fail. I have contributed a great deal of time and effort to Libertarian Party campaigns and taken a bunch of grief for being in the regrettable position of not being able to follow through with ONE PROJECT… EVER.

    Be warned, I do not take your lies and insults lightly and I will pursue legal remedies if you continue to maliciously defame me.

  412. Nicholas Sarwark

    While I’m never a fan of threatening litigation (if I’m going to sue you, I’ll just sue you), I don’t see how saying that one will pursue legal remedies violates any non-coercion agreement or the non-aggression principle. Having a civil legal system is how we resolve disputes without engaging in force, no?

  413. Thomas L. Knapp

    @479,

    “Having a civil legal system is how we resolve disputes without engaging in force, no?”

    No. A civil legal system IS force. Whether or not it’s aggression (as opposed to defensive force) is an interesting question, but it’s most manifestly force.

    You’re a lawyer. You know that courts don’t just ask people nicely to appear, or make paying fines, etc. optional.

    There’s been significant debate within the libertarian highbrow community over whether or not e.g. defamation is aggression, and whether or not civil litigation over defamation is aggression.

  414. Nicholas Sarwark

    @480: I draw a distinction between the criminal legal system, where failures to appear are met with warrants and failure to pay fines can lead to imprisonment, and the civil system, where judgments can be enforced through lien or garnishment. I suppose that on the outside edge of the civil system, there may be some force, e.g. a Sheriff enforcing an eviction order, but if you define every interaction that involves someone having to do something they don’t want to do as force, you strip the word of its meaning and utility.

    In short, locking you in a cage or punching you in the face is a far cry from obtaining a civil judgment for damages.

  415. Andy

    “Stephen VanDyke – HAMMER OF TRUTH // Feb 6, 2013 at 9:56 pm

    @472

    Andy, you know very little and are a big mouth.”

    Well then enlighten us as to what happened to the donations for Liberty Mix, and as to why the site never materialized.

    “I have made every concerted and conscious effort to repay everyone who contributed because it’s the right thing to do.”

    Can you name any of the individuals who got their money back? Are any of the individuals who got their money back here?

    I’ve been following this forum since its inception, and I was around back during the Third Party Watch, Last Free Voice, and the old Hammer of Truth days, so I remember the whole Liberty Mix affair. Money came in, a really kick ass website was promised, and then NOTHING was delivered.

    “Sadly, it’s detractors like you who clearly WERE NEVER EVEN INVOLVED INVOLVED who insist on distorting the facts years later FROM THE SIDELINES.”

    Well, being that money came in and NOTHING was delivered, and there was no evidence of any effort being put into it, I’m GLAD that I did not get involved in it.

    “You want to paint me as something I am not, and you will fail. I have contributed a great deal of time and effort to Libertarian Party campaigns and taken a bunch of grief for being in the regrettable position of not being able to follow through with ONE PROJECT… EVER.”

    This same excuse can be put out by other people whose names and stories I’m not even going to get into right now. It does not fly in their cases either.

    “Be warned, I do not take your lies and insults lightly and I will pursue legal remedies if you continue to maliciously defame me.”

    OH GEE, I’M REALLY SCARED.

    I asked a question about what happened to the money that you received for Liberty Mix and why the site never materialized. You still have not responded.

    Notice how instead of answering simple questions about what happened to the donations and why nothing was ever delivered he resorts to making threats against me rather than answering the question.

  416. Andy

    “Erik Viker // Feb 6, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    Andy @ 473-474. Dude, if you are so desperate to rub Republican Ron Paul’s bunions in public, don’t expect me participate. I promote Libertarian Party candidates in office who will advance Libertarian principles in public policy, as an alternative to Republocratic schemes to control people. I’ve known all about the old guy since 1987 and he has failed to regain my trust. You should ask yourself why you are so desperate to venerate him at me.”

    My point is not to idolize anyone. I’m just pointing out that Ron Paul’s campaigns for the Republican Presidential nomination in 2007-2008 and in 2011-2012 got a lot of people activated in the liberty movement, and that it DID NOT take away from the Libertarian Party, because the Libertarian Party was on a downward spiral at the time, and that some of these people actually have since become active in the Libertarian Party, and that I put the greater liberty movement above the Libertarian Party or above Ron Paul himself for that matter.

    More people active in the liberty movement is a good thing. Getting the message out to a lot of people who never would have heard it otherwise is a good thing. Ron Paul achieved these things because of his campaigns in 2007-2008 and 2011-2012.

  417. Andy

    “Erik Viker // Feb 6, 2013 at 4:29 pm

    Some people may believe ‘idolize and vote for fringe Republican politician’ equals ‘advancing the cause of liberty,’ but I am not one of those people.”

    I do not know anyone who believes this.

    “I don’t even think ‘advancing the cause of liberty’ means anything measurable.”

    Advancing the cause of liberty means either directly rolling back the state, or at least getting more people activated in the cause of rolling back the state.

    “I prefer seeing Libertarian principles in public policy at every level of government possible, which is best achieved by promoting trustworthy Libertarian Party candidates who will work to bring Libertarian principles to public policy.”

    I prefer advancing the cause of liberty (see above), whether it is through the Libertarian Party, or some other means, I don’t care so much, just as long as the cause gets advanced. The Libertarian Party is one tool to advance the cause, but it is not the only tool (and I include here things that are outside of electoral politics).

    “Others’ interests and goals may differ.”

    My goal is liberty, not to worship only one tool for fighting for liberty over others.

  418. Lefty Danger Pistolero

    #481

    If you wrong me using defamatory speech how is it not wrong for me to bring the force of the state, rather than my own words, to bring about resolution to the issue? Would it not be far more libertarian of me to use my words, and documented facts with cited sources where available, to disprove your fraudulent speech and expose you for the liar you are then run to the armed syndicate to make you pay “damages” which are barely quantifiable? I would argue answering speech with speech is the only logical course of action.

    The TRUTH is what the accused should be after, not “legal damages” imposed by arbitrary “authority”. I find threat of legal FORCE to be an excellent indicator of an inability to refute allegations. If force were not truly involved, then why would anyone make the threat in the first place? It’s the (barely) adult version of “I’m telling!”

  419. Erik Viker

    Andy @484, I agree that “advancing the cause of liberty” might mean either directly rolling back the state, or at least getting more people activated in the cause of rolling back the state. But voting for a fringe Republican politician who has authored only one piece of legislation passed by Congress in over 20 years doesn’t roll back much government at all. I do not encourage anybody to worship any tool, no matter how impressive. – - although I might agree that Republican Ron Paul and his right-wing spawn Rand are big tools.

    But political parties will always be part of government due to human nature. We are a civilization of joiners. To move public policy in Libertarian directions, we need to slowly and consistently promote a political party that will do just that. It’s foolhardy to dilute your resources by scattering them around to promote anybody who says what you like to hear, especially when already aligned with the liberty-squashing, government bloating Republican hypocrites for over two decades. If your goal is liberty, then move government in Libertarian directions. Or maybe instead enjoy the warm fuzzy feeling of being part of a community of dedicated gullibles who are doing what the Republican Party wants them to do- – support a Republican politician. That choice is a manifestation of liberty too. But do not waste your time trying to convince me it’s a wise choice. I’ve been paying close attention since before 1988 and my experiences tell me that it’s foolish to trust Republicans and Democrats to promote citizen liberty.

  420. Erik Viker

    Back to the original post. . . what’s going on with the LPPA right now, from the perspective of one Life Member:

    2/7/13 7:03 AM

    Sent by me to my LPPA colleagues via Board Business email list:
    Disagreements about how Libertarian principles are best promulgated (via protest activism or via candidates for office) has been around forever and hasn’t threatened party unity, because the two are not mutually exclusive. The more recent infighting seems to fall along the “Tom Stevens – Not Tom Stevens” continuum. Most of the complaints are about how online LPPA communications are being controlled by the chair, with some concerns (warranted or not) about how new local county committees are influenced by the chair. Other propaganda tends to be of the personal attack variety.
    With no value judgment about any person intended, my observation is that it may be best if a non-divisive third state chair candidate steps forward who is not part of the newly-established conflict structure, so the LPPA delegates have an option that defuses the conflict.
    Because this email group is intended for discussion about LPPA leadership issues/activity and is not intended to serve as a campaign venue for any specific chair candidates, I assume that this message is acceptable under the moderation guidelines.
    Erik Viker
    Chair, Libertarian Party of Snyder County

    Email from state chair Tom Stevens forbidding the message to be sent:
    2/7/13 3:29 PM
    Erik,
    This is not related to Board Business.
    As for your many requests for Membership Numbers, I would like you to show me any post in the past 5 years under any prior chair where these numbers were made available outside a report to the Board.
    Still, they will be published.
    Finally, just because a few people kick up a shit-storm doesn’t mean the attacks are justified or that I don’t deserve an opportunity to have the delegates decide whether I deserve re-election.
    Regards,
    Tom

    2/7/13 4:48 PM

    My response:

    Tom,
    I am surprised to learn that you forbid my leadership planning observations (below) from being shared with the BB email list. You have recently posted to that list information about GOP activity, a Harry Browne essay, your opinions about events being hosted by LPPA members and their associates, info about the LP of Kentucky, and your opinions about another declared LPPA chair candidate. All of these topics are no more related to Board business than my observations about hypothetical chair nominees might be. Proposition: If it might be discussed in a Board meeting, it should be welcomed in the BB group. So how is my call for LPPA members to consider accepting nominations for officer positions, in a gathering of LPPA members, out of order? This is the sort of moderation decision that could lead to accusations of biased “chair-campaign” use of the LPPA communication media. “Justified” or not, those accusations hurt the LPPA and should be avoided if possible.

    On the other matter, what previous chairs did or did not do isn’t relevant to my request for updated membership totals. You recently posted membership totals as of 12/31/12 on our Facebook group, specifically suggesting those numbers are a measure of your success as Chair. My request for a membership totals update is completely in line with such an official information exchange, and for the best transparency and accountability it’s best that officers not resist a request for this updated 2013 information. I look forward to seeing those updated totals soon. We should avoid any accusations of selectively sharing membership numbers, which could play right into the hands of those who complain about how our official communication channels are being managed. They may present to you as just “a few people kicking up a shit-storm,” but shit-storm-kickers are not the only members who might raise these questions. You’d want a re-election to be entirely honorable and above-board, and sometimes we cannot see the unintended ramifications of our own actions.

    You absolutely deserve an opportunity to have the delegates decide whether you deserve re-election, by virtue of hypothetically getting nominated for re-election during the business meeting. And every other LPPA member in good standing deserves the opportunity to be considered for any office position up for election.

    Respectfully,
    Erik Viker
    Chair, Libertarian Party of Snyder

    2/7/13 5:42 PM
    Tiresome reaction, summarized for your convenience:

    I work so hard, everybody attacks me, lie after lie, the Montgomery County LP is refusing to support somebody the LP nominated because candidates are bad, they like anarchy, you’re bad for sending things to the Board email list because you’re not currently a Board member, fair warning you’re gonna get banned from the LPPA communications systems, updated membership numbers will be posted someday I work 6-8 hours a day on LPPA business (editor note mostly unrelated to chair duties in the bylaws) spent a year of my life, if delegates want somebody else so be it, so if someone thinks they can do better and wants to run for State Chair, please do step forward because I can certainly direct my talents elsewhere.- – Tom Stevens

  421. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Look what I found on Facebook:

    (Posted to the LPPa_BB group 5:08 PM 2/18/13)
    “As was widely announced in social media, I was attending the Farpoint Convention in Timonium, Maryland this past weekend and staying at the Hunt Valley Hotel. I was the lead organizer of two panels. Marakay Rogers, our candidate for Attorney General last year, was also in attendance.

    I left the convention hotel on Saturday, February 16, 2013 at around 2:40 p.m. and proceeded onto Route 83 North for the 4 mile trip to Hunt Valley. I was in the right lane of the 3 lane interstate. After travelling a mile, I became consciously aware of a large blue van coming up alongside me in the middle lane (no there were no markings on the van; I could not see the driver nor could I get a license plate number). That van stayed directly next to me, which seemed odd since most vehicles travel at a slower or faster pace than cars in other lanes. This blue van stayed right beside me and eventually started slowly moving into my lane at about a foot every few car lengths. I continued to beep my horn and the blue van continued to attempt to force me off the road into the right shoulder of the highway. I tried slowing down but the blue van matched my speed and continued to crowd me off the road until I was completely on the right shoulder of the highway.

    I cannot recall whether my car was tapped or whether I bounced off the right guard rail but I was soon careening across three lanes of oncoming traffic travelling an average speed of 70 mph (had any one vehicle hit my driver’s side door while I was not in motion on the highway, I would be dead). I ended up not being hit by oncoming traffic and was wedged in the left shoulder of the highway facing 180 degrees from the direction I was travelling.

    While this could be all coincidence, I know what it looks like when someone swerves into a lane of traffic by accident. This blue van stayed directly to my left, did not respond to beeps of my horn, moved a foot at a time into my lane forcing me off the highway and then after completely crowding me off, I was either tapped by the van or bounced off the guardrail so I ended up entering the oncoming lanes of traffic. The blue van then quickly left the scene.

    There was a high probability of my being dead if any one of the vehicles hit me head on but somehow I survived with no broken bones and no head injury. However, I am in extreme pain.

    A state police report was taken but they said they could do nothing. I have been referred to individuals from the FBI Organized Crime Task Force and an individual who previously worked for Army Intelligence by LPPA members and others who say this incident is extremely similar to prior ones that have happened to others. I have also been contacted by people who have immediately identified possible perpetrators with differing motives.

    There is a 10% chance this was all coincidence and there is some rational explanation for what happened not involving foul play. There are three other possibilities being investigated, each with a 30% chance of being the cause. The first involves operatives from the GOP with possible Mafia connections based in Bucks County. The second involves individuals in the LPPA, with former GOP connections. The third involves individuals attending Farpoint who have a real problem with the topics of the panels I have been running there for several years. In all cases, the motives are crystal clear and many involve, as reported earlier, attempts to degrade the LPPA’s ability to field a gubernatorial candidate in 2014; an effort which has succeeded to an amazing degree (and simply labeled “infighting” by those who leave or resign).

    I have left my home in Philadelphia and I am now living at an undisclosed location. While this was the first recommendation of those with intelligence contacts, I have no confidence that I am safe. I am sure I can be easily tracked down by those with appropriate connections.

    Thank you all for your kind words and good wishes. I would like to believe that the LPPA is too small and insignificant to be the subject of such shenanigans but given the bribery and threats received by our petitioners in 2012 that were delivered by a former FBI agent and current Private Investigator with ties to the GOP, and other similar attacks on other political enemies, I am not so certain and others are convinced this is just another example of foul play.

    Ask yourself how much money the GOP spent trying to get Gary Johnson and our Statewide Candidates off the ballot in 2012. That amount comes to nearly a half million dollars. If the GOP could degrade the LPPA and prevent us from having a successful petition drive in 2014, how much would that be worth to them?

    In Liberty,

    Dr. Tom Stevens
    LPPA State Chair”

  422. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    So, Tom is chair of Pennsylvania, has been trying to be reinstated as a member in New York, and now he was on his way to Maryland?Wow, he gets around.

  423. Ed Reagan

    Dr. Tom Stevens has put on his wookie suit and is riding his drama llama full-time.

    Someone should reachout to the BATFE in regards to the facility that the Pennsylvania Libertarian Organizational Workshop catching fire right at the start time of the event.

    We ended up finding an alternate location and started the even at 3pm instead of 12:30pm.

    News links:

    http://www.timesherald.com/article/20130218/NEWS01/130219651/fire-that-damaged-valley-forge-beef-and-ale-under-investigation

    http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2013/02/16/fire-crews-battling-blaze-at-montco-restaurant/

  424. Pingback: More News from Pennsylvania LP | Independent Political Report: Third Party News

  425. James Babb

    Most of the workshop videos have been uploaded to this playlist:
    http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEAdmrPm0VvbLggoAXin5sJi9jVi6G9UR

    Now you can see what all the excitement is about. Topic include “Being the Media”, “Running for Office” & “Grassroots Organizing” and other subversive stuff.

    I’d like to thank everyone who helped promote this event, especially the LPPa chairman for his “Extraordinary Alert” who brought us national attention.

  426. Pingback: Ed Reagan: “The Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania’s Liberty Lyin’ Roars Again” | Independent Political Report: Third Party News

  427. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Wow, even the famous “Wayne Allyn Root Tells Radio Audience to Vote for Mitt Romney” thread has less than 300 comments. Only a very few articles here have hit 500 comments. Congratulations, Pennsylvania–you’re almost up there with Angelagate.

  428. James Babb

    Yes Jill, this is why I’m giving Doctor Tom my full support for his reelection. We haven’t enjoyed this much interest in many years.

    Despite the remote location, disgusting venue and lack of entertainment, this convention is sure to be exciting and well attended.

    This is the real genius of Doctor Tom. He’s willing to sacrifice his reputation, and look like an absolute authoritarian, sociopathic douche, just to reignite the LPPa.

    In fact he’s been playing the “long game” that few have the patience for. Alienating the Boston Tea Party, the Ron Paul Revolution, the NYLP and Outright Libertarians…it was just part of his strategy to save a dying LPPa.

    Bravo Sir!

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