LP.Org Puts Oregon Convention for Reeves Group on their Event Calendar; Wagner Responds

One of our IPR readers found an entry on the website for the national Libertarian Party, with an event listed for the Oregon LP. This convention, however, is for the Reeves group, which is not currently recognized by the Secretary of State in that state. This dispute has been going on since at least March of 2011. The judicial committee for the LNC has affirmed that, for now, the Wagner group is the proper group of officers to be recognized. However, at the National Convention in Las Vegas, May of 2012, the Reeves group was seated as the proper Oregon delegation.

Here is the entry for the convention: Libertarian Party of Oregon .

We have received the letter which Richard Burke wrote to have the article listed:

HERE IS A NEWS ITEM FROM OREGON:

The Libertarian Party of Oregon led by Tim Reeves operating under the governing documents approved by members in convention will be holding it’s (sic) annual business convention on March 9, 2013 at the Eagle Crest Resort located just outside of Redmond, Oregon. In addition to electing party office holders, considering changes to the LPO’s governing documents, and other required business items, materials will be provided supporting goals adopted by the LPO including the support of campaigns for local office and it’s (sic) adopted legislative agenda. Pending legal action over matters concerning the form and control over the LPO are expected to be completed by that time, offering the LPO a chance to recover lost gains and build it’s organization and political relevance.

END OF NEWS ITEM

Thank you.

Richard P. Burke
cc: Tim Reeves

It is unknown at this time if the convention will be listed in the next print issue of the LP News.

Upon learning of the entry on the LP.Org site, Wes Wagner wrote a letter to Geoffrey Neale, Chairman of the Libertarian Party:

Mr Neale,

In addition to the recent attempt to once again get staff to put the Reeve’s factions events in the LP News, apparently they are now on the LP.ORG site.

http://www.lp.org/event/libertarian-party-of-oregon-2013-state-convention

Please provide an official explanation why this is still an issue and it keeps coming up. I would also like to know who the responsible party is who placed this on the LP.ORG website, and who asked them to do it/authorized it.

I have copied IPR editor Paulie in his role as a member of the media, not as an alternative of the LNC in the interests of transparency.

Sincerely,
Wes Wagner
Chairperson, Libertarian Party of Oregon

For history of this dispute, there are almost 50 articles here on IPR since March 2011 which chronicle the developments in that state’s LP. There is currently a lawsuit in Oregon’s court system which may settle things sometime this year.

The story will be updated if and when more information is learned about it. UPDATE: I have been notified that the convention for the Reeves group has been removed, and an entry for the Wagner group convention added to the month of May, 2013.

166 thoughts on “LP.Org Puts Oregon Convention for Reeves Group on their Event Calendar; Wagner Responds

  1. Personally I blame....

    …that jew bastard Paul Frankel.

    Gotta blame somebody, right?

    Might as well blame that slimy little piece of shit!

    Anyone else besides me remember who made Aaron Starr and Bruce Cohen IPR editors?

    I wouldn’t trust the Zionist prick if I was you.

  2. Root's Teeth Are Awesome

    Paulie has always striven to be fair.

    He’s often offered editorships to libertarians from across the spectrum.

    I think the only “bias” Paulie has shown is in banning Milnes and Ogle because of their repetitive spamming of their one-note themes (was that even Paulie’s ban?).

    Other than that, Paulie’s been okay.

  3. Kevin Knedler

    I would hope that post # 2 was some form of twisted sarcasm. Paulie has indeed been fair and is trying to do his best while seated on the LNC.

  4. Chuck Moulton

    In much the same way I think chairs of both factions ought to be on the state chairs list, I also think the state conventions of both factions ought to be put on the events list (understanding that the Wagner faction has its state convention by mail ballot). That said, I understand the problem with this position: staff would have to make some indication that there are competing groups when listing the event (much like the asterisk thrown on the hall of fame Barry Bonds baseball to indicate steroid use) rather than implying this is the one and only true Libertarian Party of Oregon, but it’s hard to do so without embarrassing the LP.

    As for LP News, there is a similar problem in listing news from only one side implying it is the only possible state affiliate when it isn’t. There I probably wouldn’t list a news update from either side (except a listing on an event calendar, again throwing on an asterisk). The difference is that while notice of a potential state convention is important to disseminate far and wide, it’s less clear that commentary on the state of the Libertarian Party of Oregon (even commentary embedded in a lengthy event description) is necessary to inform the membership.

    It’s a tough situation. I think we’ll all be glad when this lawsuit is over.

    Btw, kudos to Jill (or whoever wrote this part) for throwing the “(sic)” in the Burke news item after the grammatically incorrect “it’s”. I always find that incredibly entertaining!

    HERE IS A NEWS ITEM FROM OREGON:

    The Libertarian Party of Oregon led by Tim Reeves operating under the governing documents approved by members in convention will be holding it’s (sic) annual business convention on March 9, 2013 at the Eagle Crest Resort located just outside of Redmond, Oregon. In addition to electing party office holders, considering changes to the LPO’s governing documents, and other required business items, materials will be provided supporting goals adopted by the LPO including the support of campaigns for local office and it’s (sic) adopted legislative agenda.

    How to Write Good by Michael O’Donoghue:
    Lesson 6 (Quoting Other Authors):
    http://www.workableweb.com/_pages/tips_how_to_write_good.htm

    If placed in a situation where you must quote another author, always write “[sic]” after any word that may be misspelled or looks the least bit questionable in any way. If there are no misspellings or curious words, toss in a few “[sic]“s just to break up the flow. By doing this, you will appear to be knowledgeable and “on your toes,” while the one quoted will seem suspect and vaguely discredited. Two examples will suffice:

    “O Sleepless as the river under thee, Vaulting the sea, the prairies’ dreaming sod, Unto us lowiest sometime sweep, descend And of the curveship [sic], lend a myth to God” – Hart Crane

    “Beauty is but a flowre [sic], Which wrinckles [sic] will devoure [sic] Brightnesse [sic] falls from the ayre [sic] Queenes [sic] have died yong [sic] and faire [sic] Dust hath closde [sic] Helens [sic] eye [sic] I am sick [sic], I must dye [sic]: Lord, have mercy on us.” – Thomas Nashe

    Note how only one small “[sic]” makes Crane’s entire stanza trivial and worthless, which, in his case, takes less doing that Nashe, on the other hand, has been rendered virtually unreadable. Anyone having to choose between you and Nashe would pick you every time! And, when it’s all said and done, isn’t that the name of the game?

  5. NewFederalist

    I really don’t understand the vitriol directed at Paulie. I really find the bigotry to be so repulsive that if the poster has a point to make it get totally lost.

  6. Marc Montoni

    I’m not logged in to know for sure, and if I did I wouldn’t say anything, but Paulie might have posted that himself just for poops and giggles.

    Paulie’s one of the most level-headed guys I’ve ever met. He sometimes takes any criticism of him personally, adds a few more self-deprecating insults, and re-states it without a second thought.

  7. paulie

    As to the article:

    LNC, per JudCom, recognizes Wagner. Therefore anything put out by LPHQ is supposed to be from Wagner et al., nothing from Burke/Reeves, and that includes LP News and LP.org.

    LSLA list has Burke and Reeves on it. They are not bound by JudCom, and recognize the national convention delegates as the highest authority. Aaron Starr runs the list as LSLA Secretary, and he’s also funding the Burke lawsuit from what I’ve been told.

    Robert and Carla are subscribed to LSLA list. Not sure about any other staff. They asked for event listings from a bunch of states, and a bunch have been posted to that list.

    There are a few possibilities here:

    1) They just took all the event listings from all the states and shuffled them off on someone who didn’t know one from the other, such as an intern or new staff member, to update the website calendar. LP News is being put together by contract writers, so there’s a good chance that whoever is editing that wouldn’t have caught it either, although I haven’t received my copy yet (if anyone already has theirs, please let us know what it says about Oregon).

    2) Someone who should have known better, such as Robert, could have been busy doing a lot of different things, like answering phone calls and updating the calendar at the same time, and may have just not caught that it was Oregon.

    3) Wes Wagner is convinced that someone on staff – Carla or Robert or someone at their direction – put that in there deliberately, ignoring prior instructions from Geoff Neale after previous conversations with Wagner, because they side with the Burke/Reeves faction.

    I know that Aaron was pushing for Carla to be hired even before Wes was hired, but I’m not as convinced that she is a Burke faction partisan.

    George Phillies is calling this an action of the whole LNC and saying it needs to be appealed to JudCom again. However, most of LNC was never made aware of the new event listing issue, although of course we have all heard about the Oregon controversy in more general terms. It’s true that LPHQ are LNC employees, but Geoff has asked us to go through him if and when we have issues with anything staff is doing rather than contacting them directly.

    Wes has now made Geoff aware of this, as well as writing staff directly, so hopefully the website issue will be fixed.

    However, if LP News has already gone out, there’s not much anyone can do about that at this point, other than a retraction in the next issue, which may well be after the Burke/Reeves convention on the current publication schedule.

    I know Wes wants heads to roll at LPHQ over this, so for everyone’s sake I hope that listing is not in LP News.

  8. paulie

    Btw, kudos to Jill (or whoever wrote this part) for throwing the “(sic)” in the Burke news item after the grammatically incorrect “it’s”. I always find that incredibly entertaining!

    Yes, nice touch :-)

    And yes, it was Jill.

  9. LNC Again Attacks its OR Affiliate

    My position is a bit weaker than *wants* a Judicial Committee process. However, LNC, Inc., and thus its board of directors is responsible for the acts of its employees. If your employees do not file FEC reports, it is the LNC that will be fined.

    One member option, since the past Judicial Committee proceeding was not entirely effective, would be a further proceeding, or asking the Judicial Committee to re-open the past proceeding. Re-opening is easier, in that the Judicial Committee might determine that its prior decision needed amplification or re-hearing without a full petition being needed. Of particular interest here are LNC subsidies to the Burke-Reeves faction, including:
    (i) supplying the server used by the LSLA for its mailing list,
    (ii) use of the LP.org web site to advertise the Burke-Reeves State Convention, and perhaps
    (iii) use of the newsletter to advertise the Burke-Reeves State Convention.

    In my opinion, if the listing is in LP News, the LNC has shown it does not want the Libertarian Party of Oregon as its affiliate, and should consider what it thinks it is doing to our affiliate and, more important, what options affiliates have to return the favor.

  10. Michael H. Wilson

    The Eagle’s Crest Resort is fairly pricey. I wonder who is going to be paying for this? Interestingly enough there was a previous convention held at Sunriver resort in Bend which is not too far away and the convention lost $2 to $3 thousand as I recall.

    This is the typical stupidity I have come to expect from one side in this debate.

  11. Chuck Moulton

    Btw, I mentioned Burke’s submission to LP News over 2 weeks ago.

    Chuck Moulton wrote (Wes Wagner Launches Alternative Libertarian State Chairs Group @36 on 12/3/2012):

    I count 14 messages from Richard Burke to the state chairs list since April. I see zero messages from Tim Reeves to the state chairs list. In yesterday’s message to the state chairs list you (Burke) sent an affiliate news report on behalf of the Libertarian Party of Oregon to staff. Tim Reeves was CCed, but he said nothing and the report was clearly composed by you rather than him.

  12. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    There’s some correspendence with the LSLA that should be posted as an article here. I’ll do it in a few days, if no one else has done it first. I know everyone is sick of the Oregon issue, but I think the info should be available to everyone to read. It has to do with the LSLA “inviting” Wes to join their email list at the urging of Reeves.

  13. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I’m glad the use of (sic) amused people. I actually thought people would think I was being bitchy, but the misspelling of the possessive there is a pet peeve of mine. Burke seems to do it at least once in everything I read of his.

  14. Wake Up

    So the Knedlering pops up to defend Frankel? Shocker! Yet more proof if any was needed. What faction do you think Frankel is really with? Was he their undercover agent all along or did he just sell out like a bitch for thirty shekels? Well either way he is their bitch now. He may as well be sucking Richard Burke’s balls and asshole. It’s all part of a Zionist plan to take over the Libertarian Party on behalf of the Israel lobby. Do you need to buy a clue or what? Dumb shits. Some of us are on to you jewboy. For some just a matter of time because they are not that quick.

  15. paulie

    Wait. So someone told you that bigotry is Libertarian?

    Let’s check….

    http://www.lp.org/platform

    3.5 Rights and Discrimination

    Libertarians embrace the concept that all people are born with certain inherent rights. We reject the idea that a natural right can ever impose an obligation upon others to fulfill that “right.” We condemn bigotry as irrational and repugnant. Government should neither deny nor abridge any individual’s human right based upon sex, wealth, ethnicity, creed, age, national origin, personal habits, political preference or sexual orientation. Parents, or other guardians, have the right to raise their children according to their own standards and beliefs. This statement shall not be construed to condone child abuse or neglect.

    Oops. May not be the party for you after all.

    Maybe you were looking for http://www.americannaziparty.com/ ?

  16. Deran

    I must say, if Ogle and Milnes qualify for banning (at least they mostly posted under their own names mostly), can the goofball neonazi be banned as well? And is the IPR staff sure this isn’t one of those gentlemen? No offense meant to Sam/Ogle or Milnes.

    As far as the two Oregon Libertarian parties, if this were a Leftwing party there would have already been a nice tidy split! It does remind me of the infinite infighting among the Left sectlettes.

  17. Jill Pyeatt

    I’m tempted to delete comments like #2 and # 18 because I don’t think nasty comments like that accomplish anything. It’s not like Paulie gets paid here, although I don’t think anyone should be abused even if it’s their job. I don’t think it’s either Milnes or Ogle, because I don’t think Milnes is able to post anything from his ISP, and it doesn’t seem like Ogles’ style. So, it’s just someone who feels like being a jerk.

  18. NewFederalist

    I don’t remember anyone ever being banned here for for making inappropriate comments like the poster who has been attacking Paulie (and to a lesser extent, Andy). Repetitive comments with little or nothing to do with the thread… yes. While I don’t like reading such drivel as Jill points out, I can always choose to skip over it. One should notice the poster makes it a point to change his name frequently so people don’t just skip him by but read a word or two first. Oh well, with the end of time just around the corner (according to the Mayan calendar) who is going to sweat the small stuff! :)

  19. Stewart Flood

    Paul Frankel is not, and has never been a member of the inner circle of hooded keyholders.

    As I’ve said before, while Mr Knedler was used by the inner circle and may have appeared to be doing their “bidding” in several situations (for example when he knedlered the convention during the officer elections), he was not one of the keyholders. He also is/was not as rabid a supporter and follower of Mr Root as many assumed.

    His comments about Paul should be taken at face value.

  20. Dave Terry

    ON ANOTHER NOTE:

    On Dec 17, the Oregon Secretary of State’s office ruled against the Wagner cabal AGAIN in another of it’s deleterious legal manuevers against the legitimate State Committee of the LP of Oregon, stating that “there was no evidence to support a violation of ORS 260.044″, as was claimed by the Wagner suit.

    Further, on a second claim, the SOS again ruled that “there is no evidence of a violation or ORS 260.407. Not finding a violation of election law,
    the Elections Division determines this investigation is closed and does not intend to pursuit this matter futher.”

    It is only a matter of time before this house of cards will collapse under the weight of it’s own malfeasance and duplicity and the Wagner gang will be sent packing the road to wreak havoc elsewhere.

    Dave Terry, chairman
    L.P of Yamhill Co. OREGON.

  21. Wes Wagner

    Once again Mr Terry did not post the entire letter.

    He left out the parts where the Secretary of State wrote:

    “The monies that are being collected by Reeves, while made payable to the Libertarian Party of Oregon (or some version thereof) are for his organization/group also known as the Libertarian Party of Oregon, a separate entity from the minor political party committee filed with our office. Further, Reeves attempted to establish a minor political party committee; the Elections Division rejected the paperwork because Reeves and the others names on the Statement of Organization were not the official officers reported on the recognized Libertarian Party of Oregon’s by-laws. Therefore, there is no evidence to support a violation of ORS 260.044.”

    That of course leads to the second issue being a non issue as well since the SoS does not believe they are subject to election law because they are not a political action committee and are thus outside their jurisdiction.

  22. Wes Wagner

    Further it would appear shortly after the complaint was originally filed, there was a filing with the Oregon Corporate Division:

    http://egov.sos.state.or.us/br/pkg_web_name_srch_inq.show_detl?p_be_rsn=1606196&p_srce=BR_INQ&p_print=FALSE

    Registering a non profit entity with the registered agent being a corporation whose principal is Eric Saub, the convicted felon who did time for crimes of theft and dishonesty.

    Why a non profit corporation would get filed with the name of “Libertarian Party of Oregon” after a complaint about negotiating checks in the name of that entity on a personal account held by Greg Burnett using Mr. Saub’s corporation as a registered agent… well someone else will have to figure that out.

  23. Dave Terry

    SO, Jill Pyeatt, has a “pet peeve”. SO, do we ALL! Mine happens to be grammar nazis.

    When did it become MORE important, HOW one says something than WHAT one says has to sat?

    Yesterday I inadvertently used the French ‘du jour’ instead of the latin ‘de jure’. In the context of the sentence, it was CLEAR what I meant.

    I’m not “justifying” the error, BUT is it NOW proper logic to discount the meaning of words in “lieu” of the FORMAL expression?

    Historically, some of the most brilliant people were notoriously bad spellers. Einstein, William Faulkner. Ernest Hemmingway and F Scott Fitzgerald were known poor* spellers.

    * do I need to explain that by poor, I don’t mean
    financially tapped out?

    Give me a break!

    Dave Terry

  24. Dave Terry

    If the last comment is for me, please identify yourself. It is very easy to be an asshole, while
    anonymous.

    Would you care to say that to my face?
    OR, are you a coward as well as an asshole?

    Dave Terry

  25. From Der Sidelines

    @32: Yes, it was directed you, as if that wasn’t obvious by the comment number it referenced.

    And you just answered the question in the former.

    That makes you both a jackass and an idiot.

  26. Dave Terry

    “From Der Sidelines” is certainly an apt nom de plume for a gutless whimp who has never had balls enough to get into the game, but must snipe at real men from the sidelines.

    You are not worth to the time to respond to, so this is the last you will hear from me, coward!

  27. From Der Sidelines

    @35. Good riddance. Learn to spell, too.

    And FYI, old senile man, I was in the kids game for quite a long time. The difference between you and me is that I decided that the current situation is a mess that is compounded by worthless unchlorinated-in-the-gene-pool remnants like you, and that made jobs of the real liberty activists like me harder because people like you and your pals keep fucking it up.

    Real men don’t commit assaults in parking lots and associate with felons, let alone be you.

  28. Jesus M. Balzac

    “Real men don’t commit assaults in parking lots and associate with felons,”

    Excellent point! That would be felons like Frankel and his buddy the child molester Matthew Barnes, as well as those who associate with them such as Jake Witmer and Andy Jacobs. Also their (former?) associate Gary Fincher, who is coincidentally reported to have assaulted a woman in a parking lot and stolen her car. Witmer is also reported to have a habit of stealing rental cars, while Frankel and Fincher are known to have committed electoral fraud. Jacobs was jailed for assaulting a police officer during an arrest and has had the police called on him numerous times at petition locations while spazzing out and going into screaming fits (like the many that those who have been to LNC meetings and LP national conventions have witnessed). Everyone would be well advised not to associate in any way with this motley crew of misfits and felons. You certainly would not want them representing you to the general public.

  29. Jesus M. Balzac

    Of course there is also their well known habit of extortion, which they have perpetrated many times on the Libertarian Party, examples include the Pittsburgh LNC meeting in 2007 where they shook down LNC members for ten thousand unearned dollars, North Dakota in the winter of 2011 where they stole a petition contract and demanded to be paid for work that was never authorized, and the most recent LNC meeting last month where they shook down the LNC for another 14 grand they did nothing to earn. They are currently trying to extort money from Constitution Party standard bearer Virgil Goode, and we all can hope he holds firm and doesn’t pay them another penny. Maybe he can even sue them for damaging his reputation by falsely claiming that he owes them money. If you hire them, you could be next!

  30. paulie

    Wow…so many distortions and lies in two paragraphs that I wouldn’t know where to begin. I could sit here all day correcting your nonsense, but who would want to spend their time that way?

  31. Dave Terry

    You’ve got that right Paulie! Talk about disfunction junction! We’ve got Haysoose, der dude on the the sidelines and Mr. Wagner, ALL competing to see who can throw the most dirt.

    I almost mistook (sic) this for the radical home page.

  32. Thomas L. Knapp

    Paulie @ 9,

    “LSLA list has Burke and Reeves on it. They are not bound by JudCom, and recognize the national convention delegates as the highest authority.”

    The convention delegates ARE the highest authority.

    But it does not follow from the fact that the convention delegates approved a delegation recommended to them by a rogue/lawless credentials committee that they thereby disaffiliated the LNC’s Oregon affiliate and replaced it with another organization. They wronged the LNC’s Oregon affiliate by depriving it of its due representation, but they didn’t replace the LNC’s Oregon affiliate.

  33. paulie

    @45 You mean Dondero Rittberg? If so I doubt it. His adoptive parents are/were Jewish, so the Jew hating crap @2 and 18 wouldn’t make sense (I assume it’s the same person), and Eric always makes a big deal about not posting anonymously.

    @44 I’m only saying that is the reason Aaron Starr is giving why Burke/Reeves are on the state chairs list instead of Wagner. Reeves has offered to let Wagner on the list, but only if Wagner refrains from criticizing the Burke/Reeves faction; Wagner is not interested in being on the list under that condition. His efforts to start an alternative state chairs list seem to be fizzling, at least thus far, as is Third Party Report, his IPR-like site. Article coming up, hopefully soon.

    @43 Yes, he’s one of their state officers.

  34. Wes Wagner

    P @46

    I put TPR up at a time when IPR was crashing ,… looked like it was having serious issues, etc., and we may have needed an alternative in a hurry since it was election time.

    Fortunately IPR was able to get back online before the election.

  35. Andy

    “Jesus M. Balzac // Dec 20, 2012 at 10:52 am”

    Wow, what a pack of lies from this cowardly piece of garbage posting under an obviously fake name.

  36. paulie

    I did a search just in case. The only Jesus M. Balzac who’s coming up would be dead by now:

    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=258&invol=298

    So yes, it is almost certainly a fake name. But more importantly, it’s a bunch of BS. I think we are rapidly approaching the point where those comments should start being removed, and not just because they are aimed at me.

    As of right now my opinion is that they are no longer acceptable outside of the petitioning controversy threads, as far as those that relate to petitioning, and “Should I (Paulie) stay or should I go” post (http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2011/02/debate-on-debate-parameters-plus-should-paulie-stay/) as far as the rest of it. Hopefully most people will agree.

  37. Jill Pyeatt

    I agree they should be deleted, Paulie. Nasty and unfounded anonymous attacks accomplish nothing, waste time, and diminish the value of IPR. IMHO

  38. paulie

    I put TPR up at a time when IPR was crashing ,… looked like it was having serious issues, etc., and we may have needed an alternative in a hurry since it was election time.

    I’m not saying it was a bad idea. i actually wish there was a site to compete with to keep us on our toes here. However, ever since we overtook TPW, a bunch of similar sites have come and gone – some are still up, some are not, but none of them is getting nearly the traffic or comments of IPR, unless you include Ballot Access News, which has an overlapping but somewhat different focus.

  39. Andy

    “Be Rational // Dec 20, 2012 at 3:55 pm

    Did Jesus change his name from Eric?”

    “paulie // Dec 20, 2012 at 5:03 pm

    @45 You mean Dondero Rittberg? If so I doubt it. His adoptive parents are/were Jewish, so the Jew hating crap @2 and 18 wouldn’t make sense (I assume it’s the same person), and Eric always makes a big deal about not posting anonymously.”

    Yeah, I also doubt that it is Dondero. He’s not above spreading false stories, but unless he has changed his writing style and made some comments that don’t sound like they would come from him in order to throw people off, I doubt that it is him.

    My top guesses right now are that the mystery poster has the initials of CB or MH, but it could be somebody else. I’m thinking that the person is probably either a current or former member of the Libertarian Party. I’m also thinking that there is a good chance that Paul and/or I have met this individual in person, and that they were friendly to our face(s). This person has probably been following this website for a while, and may have posted here in the past under their real name.

    I think that the individual is doing this for one of more of the following reasons:

    1) They think that this is funny, so they are doing it for shits and giggles.

    2) They have mental problems.

    3) They are purposely spreading misinformation because they want the Libertarian Party to be less effective.

    I’m thinking that another suspect here is that it is Sean Haugh, but would Sean Haugh be familiar with the rap group NWA? I would tend to doubt it, because white guys his age are usually not familiar with rap music.

    I wonder if it is “Angela Keaton” (real name: Eso Pepe). She’s crazy enough, and she was on here years ago during that Sean Haugh controversy spreading false stories to cover up for Sean Haugh, because Haugh was buddies with Wrights and she thought Wrights was cool because she thinks he represents radical Libertarians, so she mindlessly backed Haugh even though it was blatantly apparent that Haugh was a crazy incompetent asshole who was screwing things up.

    I doubt that the poster is Wrights, because a 50 something year old white guy is not likely to know who the rap group NWA (which stands for Niggers With Attitudes – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N.W.A ) is.

    CB would know who NWA is, and I know that CB was posting here under fake names a while ago. MH would know who NWA is as well, and I know that MH likes to troll online. There’s a JS who would know who NWA is, but I’d hope that this JS wouldn’t be doing something like this, and I think that they’ve likely got better things to do with their time.

    There’s another JS who would probably make some of these ridiculous statements, but this person is also a white guy who is too old to probably know who NWA is.

    White guys over a certain age generally do not like or know much about rap music. This would also eliminate Scott Kohlhaas as a suspect.

    Another suspect has the initials SC. I don’t know if this person would troll on-line under a fake name or not though.

    Tying in with reason # 3 I posted above, it could be that the mystery poster is a plant, and they don’t like the fact that I have publicly speculated that there are plants who have infiltrated the Libertarian Party, either to compile information on LP members and activities or to sabotage the organization from within, or both, so they are trying to smear me for raising the question about plants in the party.

    Whatever the case may be, the person is a coward for attacking people under a fake name, and they are also a liar.

  40. Andy

    “Jill Pyeatt // Dec 20, 2012 at 6:21 pm

    I agree they should be deleted, Paulie. Nasty and unfounded anonymous attacks accomplish nothing, waste time, and diminish the value of IPR. IMHO”

    I don’t know, I generally err on the side of free speech.

    Everything that this cowardly liar has said can be debunked. It should be obvious to anyone in the know or anyone who has done any research into the accusations that they are either taking stories and twisting them around, repeating debunked rumors, or outright fabricating stories.

  41. Andy

    I’m also assuming that Seebeck was telling the truth in another thread by claiming that he was not the mystery poster in question.

  42. Andy

    I just thought of another suspect. I know that this person has been an LP member, they may still be, Paul and I have both met this person (although I only met them briefly so they may not remember me from an in person meeting), and I know that this person likes to troll on-line under fake names because they admitted it. Their initials are DS.

    This person might be the type who would know who NWA is, as well as David Allen Coe (whom they also posted a link to a video), but I don’t think that this person has ever posted here under their real name, and I don’t know if this person knows about this site or not. They might know about it, because I know Paul has met this person at least once or twice, but I don’t know for a fact that they know about this site.

    I didn’t know that DS followed any of this stuff with the LNC or ballot access, but they could lurk at sites like this and then post outrageous attacks under a fake name for their own amusement.

  43. Andy

    The mystery poster must be familiar with a wide range of music since they posted a link to a video by the rap group NWA, and later posted a link to a video from somebody from the world of country music in David Allen Coe.

    Some of the older white guys who I eliminated for not being likely to know who NWA is would be more likely to know who David Allen Coe is, but I’m still doubting that it is any of the ones I mentioned.

  44. Oranje Mike

    Would the Oregon LP be better off if both parties just stepped aside for the sake of Oregon Libertarians? It sounds to me like two egos need to be put in check.

    Hell, if I was in Oregon I would just walk away from the mess and spend my time doing other things.

  45. Andy

    Interesting name choice from the mystery poster:

    Balzac v. Porto Rico

    Balzac v. Porto Rico was a court case which originated when Jesús M. Balzac was prosecuted for criminal libel in a district court of Puerto Rico. Balzac declared that his rights had been violated under the Sixth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution as he was denied a trial by jury, since the code of criminal procedure of Puerto Rico did not grant a jury trial in misdemeanor cases. In the appeal, the U.S. Supreme Court affirmed the judgments of the lower courts on the island in deciding that the provisions of the Constitution did not apply to a territory that belonged to the United States but was not incorporated into the Union.

  46. Andy

    One more suspect: initials are ER.

    The only thing is that I don’t know if this person has ever been an LP member, and I don’t know if they’ve ever been on this site. It is possible that this individual could spend a lot of time web surfing, and that they stumbled upon this site and read up on a lot of old stories in order to find material to twist around and old, debunked rumors to repeat.

    ER is more of a long shot though. Right now I’m thinking that CB, MH, and DS are more probable as suspects, as well as “Angela Keaton” (aka-Eso Pepe), and this once again assumes that Seebeck was telling the truth when he claimed that he is not the mystery poster in question.

  47. Jill Pyeatt

    I doubt it was Angela Keaton, and certainly not Lee Wrights. I can’t imagine any of them would have a motive to be so foul. As far as David Allen Coe, I called my husband in to look at the video because he didn’t know the song. He determined that there’s a whole album he doesn’t have, so…how nice to get an idea for a Christmas gift here.

  48. Another Suspect

    I believe there is another suspect with the initials TW. TW was a member of the Libertarian Party from 1995 to 2000 when he left for the Reform Party. This person then went to the Green Party, the Constitution Party and the Socialist Workers Party in quick succession, but in each case was removed for turning in fraudulent ballot access petitions and trying to bring in prostitutes to the conventions of the political parties. He also made anti-semitic remarks which resulted in physical fights on more than one occasion. This person is known to have delusions of grandeur and is currently trying to take over the California Constitution Party affilliate led by Don grundman, although Grundman has not allowed this. He has even tried to take over US Parliament, but has been stopped by a scandal involving stealing a pair of shoes and several antique baseball cards from James Ogle. It is highly suspected that this person may be a fan of NWA and David Allan Coe although he is most interested in disco music and 13th century Gregorian chant. This person is currently trying to take over the American Third Position Party but is involved in a dispute with some of their ballot access petitioners over whether prostitutes should be hired as petitioners and whether or not Siberian people belong to the white race. This person is also speculated to have stopped by the houses of both Wayne Root and Lee Wrights sometime during 2011. This person’s existance may be doubted by many people but this could be a good profile of a suspect.

  49. So?

    I think Oregon had a pretty good showing for Johnson. Was there much of an independent organization for the campaign other than the state party factions?

  50. Andy

    “Balzac v. Porto Rico

    Balzac v. Porto Rico was a court case which originated when Jesús M. Balzac was prosecuted for criminal libel in a district court of Puerto Rico.”

    The mystery poster has obviously done some legal research in order to have referenced this case. Did the person ever attend law school, or are they just a person who has done some legal research on their own? Whoever it is, I’d say that the person is kind of a computer geek type.

    Another telling sign of computer geekdom is that they used the screen name QWERTYUIOP which are the top letters on the keyboard.

  51. Andy

    “and 13th century Gregorian chant.”

    “Another Suspect” could be Catholic Troskyist, an obvious troll who has been posting here for a long time.

  52. Root's Teeth Are Awesome

    Andy, LOTS of 50-something white guys know that Niggers With Attitude is a rap group.

    Whenever the N-word (who can use it, who’s a racist for using it, etc.) comes up in some new controversy — or even when some conservative is accused of racism for some lesser reason — the right-wing punditry (on talk radio, Fox News, print, and the blogosphere) goes on and on about how it’s unfair and hypocritical to blame X for being a racist when black rappers use the N-word all the time.

    And yes, Niggers With Attitude is often cited as an example.

    I know nothing about rap, but I know there’s a rap group called Niggers With Attitude because I’ve several times heard them mentioned, over many years, by right-wing TV/radio hosts and print pundits.

    I remember long ago some political official got in trouble for using the word “niggardly” in D.C., and Larry Elder went on and on about the hypocrisy of liberals for not criticizing rappers for using the N-word, while coming down on someone for saying “niggardly.”

    I’m sure that many middle-aged and older white conservative and libertarian men know that Niggers With Attitude is a famous rap group, even though we don’t know any of their songs.

  53. Be Rational

    “Niggardly” is not an “N” word:

    “… the origin of “niggard” is unclear, but not its timeline, which predates the N-word in the English language by a couple hundred years at least. “Niggard” comes up as early as Chaucer, late 14th century. The most commonly speculated origin is Scandanavian nig/Old Norse hnoggr, meaning miserly.”

  54. Andy

    “Root’s Teeth Are Awesome // Dec 21, 2012 at 3:54 am

    Andy, LOTS of 50-something white guys know that Niggers With Attitude is a rap group.”

    I doubt that it is “lots” in comparison to the percentage of of the population that fits this demographic.

    Also, hearing of a group is one thing, but being familiar enough with their music to post one of their songs is another thing.

    I seriously doubt that any of the 50 something white guys to whom I’ve referred are familiar with NWA, and NWA is not even a current group, but even so, I doubt that these 50 something white guys were listening to or pay attention to NWA back in the early to mid ’90′s.

  55. Andy

    “I know nothing about rap, but I know there’s a rap group called Niggers With Attitude because I’ve several times heard them mentioned, over many years, by right-wing TV/radio hosts and print pundits.”

    This illustrates my point.

    I’ve heard of Justin Bieber, but beyond hearing of Justin Bieber, I could not name any of Justin Bieber’s songs. I know that I’ve heard at least some of Justin Bieber’s songs in passing, but I wasn’t paying close enough attention to them that I could name any of them.

    A 50 something white guy is more likely to know about the rap group Niggers With Attitudes from hearing it mentioned on talk radio back in the 1990′s when gangsta rap was a fresh topic of controversy, but they are not likely to be familiar with their music.

    Sure, there a plenty of white guys who are fans of, or are at least familiar with. rap music, but they are most likely to be under a certain age. I’d say early 40′s and below, and the younger, the more likely they are to be fans or to be familiar with it.

    The mystery poster is somebody who is familiar enough with rap music to have posted a link to a song by NWA (which was not a big hit song, so it’s not like it would have been common for people to hear it on the radio), and this does not fit the profile of a 50 something, or even mid to late 40′s, white guy.

  56. Andy

    I think that there’s a good possibility that I’ve already nailed the person. They are just trying to play it off like I haven’t already figured out who they are.

  57. Andy

    “‘Angela Keaton (real name: Eso Pepe).’ That’s Doherty née Izzo-Peppe, and she wouldn’t waste her time on trash like you.”

    Well actually, she already did. While she was a sitting member of the LNC and the problems with Sean Haugh were happening she jumped to Sean Haugh’s defense and in fact came on this website and attacked myself and some other petitioners that were having problems with Haugh at the time. The fact that she defended that destructive and incompetent individual shows that she is an irrational fool and did not belong on the LNC.

  58. Andy

    “Checking the dedication page of Radicals for Capitalism isn’t that hard, is it?”

    Hmmmm, I remember a certain JS saying that he had the book Radicals for Capitalism, and this JS would know who the rap group NWA is.

  59. Andy

    This is weird. A post from a “Dough Nation” just mysteriously disappeared. Who would have the power to take a post down? It would have to be somebody who is one of the site administrators. Why would this post mysteriously disappear?

  60. paulie

    Nothing mysterious about it.

    I said I would take down any more of their posts, and I did. Please stop replying to them. If any more of them appear I will take them down as well. And I’m not going to argue about it.

  61. paulie

    I don’t know (or really care) who it is but whoever it is they obviously want attention. Don’t give it to them. If their post appears here again it’s only because I haven’t erased it yet. And if everyone ignores it in the meantime it’s more likely to stop.

    In other words don’t feed the troll and move on already.

    BTW I had an email exchange with Warren and he said it’s up to me, so I have made the decision and I will continue to enforce it. Help from other IPR editors would be appreciated whenever I am not online.

  62. Andy

    I’m on this person’s trail. I think I may have already figured out who it is. If not, I may be getting close as I’ve got a few other possibilities in mind.

  63. Dave Terry

    Thank you Paulie.
    Finally some semblance of reason.

    I can’t believe alledgedly “rational” libertarians have wasted so much time, effort or space to finding who this turd IS!

    Does ANYONE besides Andy honestly CARE who it IS?

  64. Dave Terry

    In WHAT way would the exposure of ‘trolls’ help the national party.

    As far as I’m concerned, if a person is not willing to site his/her first name and last name, they do not deserve to he heard (…err, read)

  65. Steve M

    well the trolls in the Hobbit…. Tom, Bert, and Bill were loaded with treasure…. so shining the light of day on them might help with the parties financials…

  66. Andy

    “Dave Terry // Dec 21, 2012 at 10:35 pm

    In WHAT way would the exposure of ‘trolls’ help the national ”

    Exposing a person who is damaging the Libertarian Party, even if it is just here on IPR, is a good thing. If this person ever runs for LNC or is on the LNC or runs for office or anything else people will know to not support them.

    And yes, spreading vicious lies is damaging to the party as a whole.

  67. Root's Teeth Are Awesome

    @ 73 “Niggardly” is not an “N” word:

    Yes, I know that.

    I assume most people know that.

    That was Larry Elder’s point. That some public official said “niggardly” and yet was accused of using the N-word.

  68. George Phillies

    @92 Does the new issue of LP News feature the Reeves faction state convention, or not?

    It seems — public information — that the Reeves faction has recently filed articles of incorporation for a “Libertarian Party of Oregon”. Other folks are aware of the issue.

  69. Chuck Moulton

    I don’t think people will receive LP News in the mail until after Christmas — maybe new year’s.

    I saw some advance copies of the new issue at LPHQ on Thursday, but I didn’t poke around to see if there was Oregon news in it. And I didn’t take a copy for myself.

  70. NewFederalist

    That wouldn’t be deciding on the Dragon Variation or Scheveningen Variation of Sicilian Defense or not, would it? ;)

  71. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I believe I know who the mystery poster is, but I’m gonna keep it as my little secret.

  72. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    GP @ 95: Yes, there have been documents filed re: incorporation by the Reeves group. I had difficulty adding the pdf as a comment, so I put up a new article. For those of you sick of the Oregon debacle, just disregard (although you probalably wouldn’t be reading this new comment on an Oregon thread–:)-)

  73. johnO

    #2
    Looks like a A3p member or Greece’s Golden Dawn Party follower. Instead of Peace and Freedom more like Hate and Tyranny.

  74. paulie

    If anyone else gets a chance to stop by the watergate and take a look at the new LP news to see what it says about the Oregon convention, if anything, please let us now.

  75. Wes Wagner

    paulie @106

    It can be during daytime office hours… it doesn’t have to be a night time raid with flashlights and stuff ;)

  76. Fred Jabin

    To Dave Terry @32

    I will say this to your face my friend (but would prefer to say it over a beer)
    Its high time that you stop making veiled threats to other people when you become offended.
    There is plenty of time in civilized conversation to use rational arguments or to dismiss those who don’t.
    I have on several occasions witnessed you making statements to others in our own party that are aggressive and unnecessary.
    When tempers flair we need to let our cooler heads prevail instead of insinuating that it could be settled through physical altercations.
    This tendency is a discredit to our party and to you as an individual.
    I say this as a person who considers you a friend.

  77. Dave Terry

    Fred #109. I consider you a friend also AND the fact that you signed your name rather than speak
    anonymously proves that you are worth of that.

    I MUST argue however that I have NEVER used physical force OR threatened to do so without sufficient provocation.

    I can respect the views of ANYONE who has the honesty of standing behind those words NOT hide behind anonymity.

    The last comment from “the guy on the sidelines
    was; “That makes you both a jackass and an idiot
    I’d say it to your face but I dislike excessive halitosis”. (33-34)

    MY REACTION? “You are not worth the time to respond to, so this is the last you will hear from me, coward! (35)

    How else should I have responded to like this
    predator?

    I will not ask anyone to agree with me or to even like me, but I will NOT be disrespected!
    ESPECIALLY BY people who hide in the shaddows!

  78. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    DT @ 111: ” but I will NOT be disrespected!”

    Perhaps you should back up and read your posts from the past few days. I don’t know you, but you indeed have come out swinging. Otherwise, discussion here is fairly civil, except for the troll who’s saying nothing but personal attacks, and we writers at IPR have decided how to deal with him.

    Oh, and I’m not anonymous,. Google me. I use my real name everywhere.

  79. From Der Sidelines

    “You are not worth to the time to respond to, so this is the last you will hear from me, …”

    …yet he keeps coming back, thus showing he is also a liar.

    He also is unable to exercise restraint when it comes to being baited, thus showing he is a hothead and unable to exercise any self-control. Is that what LPO wants in its alleged leadership? The example “Dissin’” Terry presents is severely lacking except in his mouth diarrhea.

  80. From Der Sidelines

    ”but I will NOT be disrespected!”

    Way too late…you’ve been disprespected, pwned, and made to look like a babbling fool.

  81. Fred Jabin

    Dave Terry is not a liar.
    I would have to agree with Jill’s summation that he came out swinging.
    Dave, you are welcome to defend yourselves, but when you challenge people to say things to your face, it sounds like you are making a threat of physical violence.
    I agree that stating things using a false name is cowardly. I also don’t agree that name calling has a place in a civil conversation, but I think that it is even worse to insinuate that you will respond to verbal insults with physical force.
    Again, I say this because I know you well enough and have seen this behavior from you, more than once. It does not help your argument and it is an embarrassment to the party. The incident in Salem resulted in an actual physical altercation that left me to apologize to the other patrons who were disturbed by the turmoil from out meeting.
    We must do better than this if we ever expect people to think our ideas lead to a more civil society.
    Please note–I am not in any way saying that you shouldn’t promote your ideas or values even when we disagree. I am just saying that we are all better off when we stay away from threats.
    I don’t know who “from der sidelines” is. I would agree that he is not behaving well in this discussion. He used an ad hominem attack against you and that has no real value. But since I don’t know who s/he is, I can’t speak to him/her as a friend.
    I can speak to you.

  82. So?

    “I agree that stating things using a false name is cowardly. I also don’t agree that name calling has a place in a civil conversation, but I think that it is even worse to insinuate that you will respond to verbal insults with physical force.”

    Yep. And threats of physical force are actually a good reason to be anonymous.

  83. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I seem to remember a short video where Mr. Terry was removed from a meeting because of a physical altercation with someone. Is this the same Dave Terry?

  84. Dave Terry

    Jill Pyeatt – 112 wrote:
    “Perhaps you should back up and read your posts from the past few days. I don’t know you, but you indeed have come out swinging.”

    Please indicate where I have INITIATED any of the nastiness on this obscene excuse for a civil discussion group.

    My FIRST post (26) was simply to annouce the Oregon SOS’s decision to reject the Wagner
    charges against the legitimate LP of Oregon.

    My NEXT post (30) was a response to YOUR petty, “bitchy” (your word, NOT MINE) and snide remarks about Richard Burke’s punctuation error(s?) (17)

    Once again I was responding to a unnecessary ad hominem attack of another libertarian.

    >” but the misspelling of the possessive there is a pet peeve of mine. Burke seems to do it at least once in everything I read of his”

    I simply can’t believe of all the issues we have before us that one’s grammar is of significant importance to criticize one for.

    Within NINE MINUTES after I posted that comment, your “apparent” bosum buddy “On the sidelines” calls me a jack ass, for no other reason than I must have criticized the Virgin Mary.

    I of course responded, in kind, but YOU CLAIM
    “Otherwise, discussion here is fairly civil,
    except for the troll who’s saying nothing but
    personal attacks, and we writers at IPR have
    decided how to deal with him.”

    I MUST have MISSED the POST where on the side lines was “CIVIL”. Would you PLEASE post the sentences that he wrote that DO NOT
    contain the words, “jackass”, “idiot”, halitosis”,
    “old senile man”. “worthless unchlorinated-in-the-gene-pool remnants like you”, ”

    >”Oh, and I’m not anonymous,. Google me. I use my real name everywhere”<

    No you aren't BUT IF you seriously believe that "on the sideline" is remotely "civil" and deserves your "protection" than YOU are as dispicable as HE is!

    Since you obviously know him, please inform him that I WILL find out WHO he is as will respond accordingly.

    26

  85. From Der Sidelines

    @115: He is a liar for the reasons I showed: he said he was leaving, yet he came back.

    He’s also getting his people confused, which is not surprising.

    While Ms. Pyeatt does not know who I am, I am well aware of her reputation for running affiliates very well and not being one to mince words. If she says it, take it to the bank.

    Mr. Jabin @115, you do not know who I am, nor I you. However, since Mr. Terry has a reputation as being a hothead, as he has plainly shown here, and because way back at @26 he inserted himself into the thread by stating a clear piece of misinformation at best, lying at worst (as was promptly debunked by Mr. Wagner @27 and @29) and he went downhill @30. So he got called on it, and he decided to engage in a war of words that he simply cannot win. Note that he cannot engage in meaningful rhetoric and instead is forced to attack and name-call because of my chosen anonymity. Some people call it cowardice, and they would be wrong. It’s actually quite liberating, because I can speak my mind and simply not give a rat’s ass about it. To them it’s cowardice because it denies them a tool, the means to confront someone and make them look bigger. The real man simply doesn’t give a shit about that and can stand on their position alone.

    Note also that he lacks the wisdom to simply shut up and quit digging himself a deeper hole.

    As for me, I ask no quarter and give none in return. “Shoot square with me, and I’ll shoot square with you. Cut’em with me, and I’ll cut’em with you.” -Perry Mason

  86. So?

    ” Ms. Pyeatt does not know who I am…”

    What makes you say that? She does have editor access to the back end of IPR so if you aren’t masking your IP address she can probably figure it out.

  87. So?

    ” Some people call it cowardice, and they would be wrong. It’s actually quite liberating, because I can speak my mind and simply not give a rat’s ass about it. To them it’s cowardice because it denies them a tool, the means to confront someone and make them look bigger. The real man simply doesn’t give a shit about that and can stand on their position alone.”

    There we agree.

  88. Dave Terry

    Yes! It is HE! But I was NOT “removed” by any one. I left on my own, in order to avoid any further confrontations (specifically with Wagner). I didn’t feel he was worthy of spending even ONE day in jail.

    Several others left with me!

    Further, as anyone who was there can attest (except Vetanan and Wagner) I was provoked by Mr Vetanan who IN REPONSE TO MY CRITICISM OF HIM, put his face four inches from mine and screamed “FUCK OFF”!

  89. Dave Terry

    121- Hiding on the sidelines says
    115: He is a liar for the reasons I showed: he said he was leaving, yet he came back.

    It is unfortunate that benchwarmer is ALL ego
    and no brains; since it is beyond his understanding that when I say that HE would hear no more from me, DIDN’T mean I was taking a vow of silence. I’m simply going to make every effort not to respond to HIM.

    But If the moderator continues to allow him to continue to bait me. I don’t see HOW, I can ignore him completely.

    HELP!

  90. From Der Sidelines

    @126: It’s called if you say you’re gonna leave, then do what you say and leave. If you see you’re being baited, don’t be a fool and respond to it.

    Seriously, it’s not complicated, and definitely not as difficult as you let yourself make it be.

    As for brains, whom has been manipulating whom here, besides me manipulating you, and even *telling you I’m doing it?* You’ve been played like second violin at the Portland Philharmonic. The net result is that you’re made an utter embarrassment of yourself for all to see. You’ve done more PR damage to your side than you can possibly realize.

  91. Dave Terry

    Wes Wagner (27) Wrote:
    > Mr Terry did not post the entire letter.

    Mr. Wagner is correct, I did not see any need to post all the letter since the judges decision and his reasoning is ALL that matters.

    Wagner brought to suit in order to keep the legitimate LPO from raising money, which we now CAN do, thanks to this judges decision.

    He left out the parts where the Secretary of State wrote:

    “The monies that are being collected by Reeves, while made payable to the Libertarian Party of Oregon (or some version thereof) are for his organization/group also known as the Libertarian Party of Oregon, a separate entity from the minor political party committee filed with our office. Further, Reeves attempted to establish a minor political party committee; the Elections Division rejected the paperwork because Reeves and the others names on the Statement of Organization were not the official officers reported on the recognized Libertarian Party of Oregon’s by-laws. Therefore, there is no evidence to support a violation of ORS 260.044.”

    That of course leads to the second issue being a non issue as well since the SoS does not believe they are subject to election law because they are not a political action committee and are thus outside their jurisdiction

  92. Wes Wagner

    Can you name the judge in question? I thought this was an administrative ruling from the executive branch.

    Someone is really stretching to pick a new fight after losing all the others so badly. I will leave people to read the plain language of the letter and figure out what it actually says.

    Document link @29

  93. paulie

    But If the moderator continues to allow him to continue to bait me.

    There has not been anything even remotely approaching requiring moderator intervention (at least as yet) From Der Sidelines. IMO.

  94. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Mr. Terry said: “But If the moderator continues to allow him to continue to bait me…”

    Are you kidding? I couldn’t have found a better thread to further discredit the Reeves group. When I post an article I can’t editorialize, but, not to worry, the comments usually speak for me. That is certainly the case here!

  95. So....

    …anyone else see the irony in “tough guy” Dave Terry asking the moderators for help because he can’t help himself stop responding to admitted and acknowledged baiting?

    BTW I’ve seen the video of the Terry-Vetanen incident which if I’m not mistaken is available online.

  96. Andy

    “From Der Sidelines // Dec 23, 2012 at 9:28 pm

    @126: It’s called if you say you’re gonna leave, then do what you say and leave. If you see you’re being baited, don’t be a fool and respond to it.

    Seriously, it’s not complicated, and definitely not as difficult as you let yourself make it be.

    As for brains, whom has been manipulating whom here, besides me manipulating you, and even *telling you I’m doing it?* You’ve been played like second violin at the Portland Philharmonic. The net result is that you’re made an utter embarrassment of yourself for all to see. You’ve done more PR damage to your side than you can possibly realize.”

    Hmmmm, I wonder if From Der Sidlines is the same person as the mystery poster who has been posting lies and making other slanderous statements about myself and other Libertarian petitioners.

  97. Fred Jabin

    So? at 124
    I have no particular problems with someone using a nom de plume if that is what they want to do. On the other hand, if while behind that obfuscation, you use personal attacks against others and choose insults over sound arguments–I would call it cowardice.
    If you stand on position that is great. If you hide behind the name and hurl insults, what value is your contribution?
    Yes, the threat of physical violence may be a good reason to hide your name, but if the threats aren’t made to those who are using good manners then there isn’t a real danger. I didn’t read anything in your posts that would put you in danger–but with so many false names in this thread it is hard to know if there is one person using more than one name to respond in various ways.

    @121 there is a big difference between breaking a promise (or possible just changing one’s mind) and Lying.

    @Dave, I only recall that one other person left with you–were there others? I almost left–but it was as much because of your behavior as anyone else’s behavior. Mr. Vetanen (who is also a friend) is aware about my feelings about his contributions to the situation. I stayed at the request of Jim Karlock who I have never witnessed acting with malfeasance toward anyone.

    I suspect that if we all took all lesson from Mr. Karlock that we would have a much greater impact on our elections. Now our current policy seems to be to treat each other in a way that only hurts each other and negates any positive results that we make.

    If we want to change the political climate, we need to figure out how to work together and we need to stop insulting each other and threatening each other. We may need to stand up and take responsibility for our actions, our words, and even our ideas.

  98. So....

    Yes, the threat of physical violence may be a good reason to hide your name, but if the threats aren’t made to those who are using good manners then there isn’t a real danger.

    I meant in general, not me. But in any case, who knows what kind of wackos may be lurking here or even participating? I wouldn’t blame anyone for being cautious.

    if the threats aren’t made to those who are using good manners then there isn’t a real danger

    Lost you there. Regardless of someone’s verbal manners, it is quite obvious no one is in physical danger from their words on a screen. Thus, if someone sees someone else’s words alone as a reason to threaten physical violence, the one making threats is clearly the one who intends to initiate force – regardless of the “provocation.”

    If you hide behind the name and hurl insults, what value is your contribution?

    Up to those reading to judge. If no one considers it of any value, eventually they will stop reading that person’s comments.

  99. So....

    ” I WILL find out WHO he is as will respond accordingly.”

    What exactly does that mean? If you are going to make threats, make them explicit, not implicit. If you are going to suggest that you are going to commit physical violence, don’t be vague about it – come out and say it. If you mean something else, say what you actually mean.

  100. So....

    And suppose you do find out who it is. What are you going to do then? Hop in your car or on a plane and go to other side of the country, or the other side of the world (no guarantee the person is even in the US or this side of the planet)?

    What if it’s a woman….they’re half the population you know? What if they are underage? What if it’s a 90 year old man on an oxygen tank? You gonna kick his ass?

    On the other hand, say it’s a martial arts expert or someone who always has a bunch of friends with them that will jump in a fight and beat you down.

    Or what if it’s someone who is sick, twisted and has connections, and will make a call and have someone go to your town (remember they are anonymous and you aren’t), track you for a while, and shoot you in the dark with a sniper rifle from 500 yards away?

    All of these scenarios are possible, and all of them are reasons why you shouldn’t threaten someone with violence (if that is what you are doing) when you have no idea who it is or where they are.

    But even if it turns out that it is a man who lives not too far away from you and isn’t too much younger or older than you, and is otherwise not someone for whom it is unfair for you to fight, what kind of boneheaded immature adult sees that as the proper, intelligent or justified response to insults on a computer screen…or as responsive, rather than initiatory, force?

  101. Andy

    “From Der Sidelines // Dec 24, 2012 at 1:59 am

    I have no beef with you, Andy, so why would I?”

    Well being that I don’t know who the mystery poster is (although I have some ideas of who it could be), I think that it is a reasonable question to ask.

  102. Mark Vetanen

    I videoed this at the Portland Grotto, a Catholic church. The next night vandals attacked the Grotto cutting off statues heads and tearing down holiday decorations.

    https://vimeo.com/54482031

    In my heart, I am just satisfied to know there is some decency in the world…even if it is in a 10 year old girl.

  103. Andy

    The mystery poster either:

    1) Posted the above video just to agitate and get attention.

    2) Posted the above video because they have a twisted sense of humor and think they are being funny.

    3) Posted the above video because they really dislike Jews.

    Or,

    4) Perhaps the mystery poster is Jewish, and they posted the above video to throw people off their trail, as in, “They’ll never suspect that it is me if I post this.”

  104. Andy

    “Jill Pyeatt // Dec 22, 2012 at 2:09 pm

    I believe I know who the mystery poster is, but I’m gonna keep it as my little secret.”

    Jill, if you really know who this person is, why don’t you do everyone a favor and expose this destructive person?

    Here are the initials of the people whom I’d consider to be the top suspects at the moment (and note that I eliminated some people who could be suspects due to reasons I listed above):

    CB

    MH

    CM

    JS

    TH

    SC

    DS

    There’s another person who could be considered to be a suspect, but this person has never been a member of the Libertarian Party, has never been part of the libertarian movement, has never been a member of any minor party (to my knowledge), and to my knowledge, has never posted at this site under their real name (I’m not sure if this person even knows about this site, but if they are the mystery poster, then they must know about it). This person has the initials BS. I’ve heard that one of this person’s hobbies is harassing people on-line under fake names. I don’t know if the mystery poster is this person or not, but I do know that whoever it is, the person is spouting a bunch of BS.

  105. Andy

    Possible motives of the mystery poster:

    1) The person thinks they are being funny.

    2) The person is mentally ill.

    3) The person is actually trying to sabotage the Libertarian Party. How? By smearing the people who are doing the most effective job in executing ballot access drives to get the party on the ballot. The person may not like the fact that I’ve openly speculated about the possible existence of plants in the Libertarian Party, because they are a plant.

    4) The person is somebody who I and/or one or more of the other Libertarian petitioners mentioned had a controversy with in the past. If so, the controversy would have been caused by the mystery poster, but they don’t like the fact that we exposed their corruption or incompetence.

    The thing going against the reason in #4 is that most of these few individuals in question do not fit the demographic of somebody who’d be likely to be familiar enough with the rap group NWA to post a link to it.

  106. Andy

    Oh, one other person it could be has the initials DW, but I heard they may have changed their name to having the initials RR. I don’t know if this person even knows about this site though. If they do, they’ve never posted here under their real name.

  107. Andy

    “I have no particular problems with someone using a nom de plume if that is what they want to do. On the other hand, if while behind that obfuscation, you use personal attacks against others and choose insults over sound arguments–I would call it cowardice.
    If you stand on position that is great. If you hide behind the name and hurl insults, what value is your contribution?”

    I agree. The stuff the mystery poster I’ve been trying to expose has done goes beyond just hurling insults behind a fake name, they’ve also put out false criminal accusations, and this is a criminal thing to do.

  108. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Andy, I thought perhaps From der Sidelines might have been the mystery poster, but I see above that you asked him, and he said no. So, I really have no idea.

  109. Andy

    “Jill Pyeatt // Dec 25, 2012 at 2:12 am

    Andy, I thought perhaps From der Sidelines might have been the mystery poster, but I see above that you asked him, and he said no. So, I really have no idea.”

    He could be lying, or maybe he’s telling the truth.

  110. paulie

    As for “Jonah Falcon,”: anyone responding to “Jonah Falcon” (under whatever name) or wishing to speculate further about who it really is: once again, take it here:

    http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2011/02/debate-on-debate-parameters-plus-should-paulie-stay/

    or here:

    http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2011/01/thread-for-discussion-on-petitioners-2/

    or here:

    http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/08/thread-for-discussion-on-petitioners/

    IPR is private property, and freedom of speech is constrained as it would be in someone’s house or restaurant, etc. The owner has told me I can act as his agent in making this decision, so that’s what I’ve done.

    Removing any such further posts has nothing to do with “censorship” . It has to do with maintaining a conversation that sane people want to keep participating in. Yes, people can scroll past it, but in reality that’s not what most people do – they just leave and don’t come back. Over time, the weeds choke out everything else, like in a garden.

    So: enough is enough. I’ve already begun enforcing this policy for “Jonah Falcon.” It is now being extended to comments to and about “Jonah Falcon” also. I tried asking nicely; that obviously did not work.

    This decision is final and not debatable in general purpose threads. If you want to debate it take it to one of the threads above. If you see any such offending posts, it’s just because I haven’t gotten to removing them yet. If you respond to them, outside of the threads that are being left open for that purpose, I’ll have to remove your responses also.

    Help from other IPR editors would be appreciated whenever I’m not around to enforce this policy.

    If you don’t like this policy, too bad. The decision has been made and it is final. Take it to the “special” threads or take it off IPR. I will not argue about this over email or on the phone, either. I also don’t care to receive any email or phone calls about who anyone thinks it is, because I don’t care who it is and I don’t want to hear about it.

  111. Another Suspect

    It’s Jesus! Yes he’s back and he’s the mystery poster; he has nothing better to do than write about libertarian petitioners. Go ahead and remove it if you want to, but it’s the truth. Merry Christmas.

  112. Fred Jabin

    so…@138
    Just for clarity’s sake,

    My point was that in the case of Mr. Terry, the only person who was being threatened was the person who was making rude comments toward him. If the person was not making the rude comments who would not have had any need for anonymity–civility would have prevented any threat.
    I was in no way excusing Mr. Terry’s behavior–I believe I was the first one telling him it was unacceptable.

    I have read “sidelines” comments on several threads, and he often has valuable insights. On this thread, I think we have both stated that he was out of line. While this doesn’t merit the threat that Mr. Terry made, it was still unacceptable behavior.
    To do it behind a false name seems cowardly to me. Using a false name does not, using a false name instead of being civil does.

    you are (of course) welcome to disagree.

  113. paulie

    To me it’s a different thing whether someone has a right to do that and whether it is right to do that.

    Sure, it can be funny in a way, but overall I think it is better to be civil (I try to be, although I don’t always succeed).

    On the other end of the scale we have people like the troll who has posted very vile comments about me and about Jews in general which we have repeatedly erased on this thread several times over the last few days. I think at least 20 such comments are in the trash folder right now. Nothing funny about that, it’s just a mix of pathetic, disgusting swill.

  114. From Der Sidelines

    @137:

    Your opinion is duly noted and dismissed. I’m here to speak my mind, not appease you. End of discussion.

  115. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I’ve been through the LP News, and don’t see anything about the Oregon convention listed.

  116. Seebeck

    @160:

    Assuming that’s your real name, and I doubt it, whomever From Der Sidelines is, you aren’t fit to even talk to him/her.

    As for me, well, you aren’t fit to talk to me, either.

    The reason for both assessments is simple: you are uncouth and immature.

  117. paulie

    I didn’t notice it previously, but the comment Seebeck is addressing appears to have been another attempt at impersonation, most likely from the same person who was posting similar comments in other threads as well as in this thread earlier.

    I don’t think it was the real Tom Stevens, so I’ve trashed it. If it actually was him he should email me or comment and I’ll restore it.

  118. Fred Jabin

    It now appears, Paulie, that the comments were addressed to Jill, which (based on your last comment 162) appears not to be correct.
    Is there a way to remedy this?

  119. paulie

    My previous comment was to clarify that. I removed two comments from the thread (recently – I removed others earlier which are now gone permanetly) because I deemed them to have been made by the impersonator. Both were posted from anonymouse. org.

    “Dr. Tom Stevens” allegedly said (I’ll edit out the cursewords) “Yeah, but you’re Mike Seebeck, so shut the f*** up. Punk a** b****.” This was the comment Seebeck was addressing.

    I also removed another comment from that same IP address allegedly posted by “From Der Sidelines.” Edited for language:

    “Yeah I’m Mike Seebeck, so what? Dave Terry can come on down and suck nuggets from my a****** anytime. If he tries to pull any s*** I will knock him on his old a**, pull down his pants, spread his a** cheeks and literally f*** the s*** out of him with my huge white c***! What’s he going to do about it except cry? Nothing!”

    I believe that the chances that either comment was left by the person whose name was signed to it are extremely low to non-existent; if either comment was genuine the authors will have to email me or comment from their regular IP that it was actually them, but realistically that won’t happen, because it wasn’t.

  120. Wes Wagner

    Despite assurances that this case would be resolved before the March convention, Mr. Burke appears to have misled again.

    The initial trial date is tentatively scheduled for June 4th through 7th.

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