2014 NY Libertarian Rumors

It may be early but New York Libertarians are already talking about the 2014 race for Governor.

The 2012 Senate candidate, Chris Edes, has already announced his plans to seek the LP nomination for 2014, reflected in his Chris Edes for Governor page on Facebook. In public comments, Edes seems to feel his performance in the Senate race supports his candidacy. Critics note that Edes only got 28,000 votes (update: 31,894), well short of the 50,000 needed for ballot status.

Another rumor is that Kristin Davis, the infamous Manhattan Madam, might seek the LP line. IPR has previously reported on Ms. Davis’ possible run for Mayor of NYC in 2013 on the Republican line. See also the 2013 Davis for Mayor website (which does not indicate a party line) and her Libertarian Lady website. It is apparent from these sites that she continues to work with GOP insider Roger Stone and his crony Andrew Miller. [Full disclosure: This author is currently suing Davis, Stone and Miller]

A third rumor suggests that LP insiders are recruiting Bill Schmidt from Peekskill. Some question Schmidt’s libertarian credentials after reading his Peekskill Perspectives blog.

Asked for an official statement from the LPNY, Chair Mark Axinn said:

I am delighted that so many people are interested in helping us get 50,000 votes and ballot access for LPNY in two years.

Also, this degree of interest would never have happened without the terrific and encouraging statewide results that Gary Johnson and others achieved in both the 2010 and 2012 elections in New York.

We’d love to hear from our readers what they see coming and if there are any other candidates on the horizon.

86 thoughts on “2014 NY Libertarian Rumors

  1. paulie

    IPR has previously reported on Ms. Davis’ possible run for Mayor of NYC in 2013 on the Republican line.

    She’s gone back and forth on whether she would run LP, GOP or what.

    Seems to be common for her…she kept putting out different statements in 2010 as to what her party would be.

    I notice that her 2013 page shows a statue of liberty and “Live Free” logos.

    She also said she would drop out of politics in the meantime so who can ever tell with her?

  2. paulie

    It is apparent from these sites that she continues to work with GOP insider Roger Stone and his crony Andrew Miller.

    Can Stone still be accurately described as a GOP insider? He seems to have had a falling out with them and even said Republican blood would “flow in the streets” due to their treatment of Gary Johnson, although he has since then also had a falling out with Ron Nielson as well, and appearances and public statements can be deceiving when it comes to Stone.

    I do know that Stone changed his registration to LP for Johnson. If he changed it back I haven’t seen that.

  3. FSBlue

    Stone posted something on Facebook about setting up a candidate training seminar for LP candidates in Florida recently so it appears he’s staying for the time being

  4. Zapper

    Has the NY LP set a date for the 2014 nominating convention yet?

    Anyone intending to be a leading candidate, to be taken seriously, and to have a real shot 100,000 votes – run seriously to win, of course, but shoot for double the 50k as one campaign goal to be sure to succeed – needs to run major network broadcast TV spots bracketing local news programs prior to the 2014 convention. The ads should run on at least one leading broadcast station in each of at least two TV markets – upstate, wherever the cost is optimal. Follow up in the same markets used by the Redlich campaign might be best. A flight over a one week period well in advance of the LP convention press announcement is the minimum.

  5. Steven Berson

    Chris Edes from what I’ve seen is a very principled and strong libertarian and from my brief in person interactions with him seems to be a nice guy with lots of integrity. I voted for him for Senate myself. But while I hope he runs as a candidate for local office in the upcoming elections I still think he makes a very poor candidate for State wide office at this point – he just doesn’t have decent public speaking ability or charisma. And I hate to be the one to point this out because for myself it doesn’t matter towards garnering my own vote – but not being willing to get a haircut and a shave at least for the duration of a campaign does show a lack of seriousness – as unfortunately effecting a “mainstream” appearance DOES matter if you want to maximize actual votes ultimately received. Hopefully he spends the next year working on public speaking and fund raising – and shows up to the nominating conventions “clean cut” – because he’d be a much stronger candidate if he did those things.

  6. bruuno

    As someone who was born and grew up in NYC and now lives on Long Island (with a lengthy stint in Alabama and Massachusetts thrown in there) I would suggest playing up the Marijuana issue and ‘stop and frisk’ in NYC and economics upstate and on Long Island. Cuomo is going to run away with the election and the GOP is unlikely to have a high quality candidate. This could be a good opportunity for the LP.

  7. Trent Hill

    “The full disclosure line is good, but calling Miller a “crony” mars the otherwise objective tone of this item”

    This. A million times this.

  8. Zapper

    Running ads before the convention would be done as a candidate seeking the nomination – what is done commonly by serious, major party candidates … which is why they are taken seriously by the public and the media.

    Of course, no one seeking the LP nod in NY has ever done this … and no one with the LP Gubernatorial nomination has ever been taken seriously nor have they obtained the relatively easy 50,000 votes.

    No strategy, no plan, no understanding of electoral politics, no success … this has been the very lame and failed method of the past …

    As Warren Redlich has personally reported here – his results in those areas where a very limited TV ad buy at the very end of the NY LP campaign in 2010 produced many times the percentage of votes of other areas. Running more ads and going over 50,000 votes would have been cheaper than the 2012 ballot drive – and a lot more advantageous since being on the ballot would allow more candidates to run, give the party credibility and aid in party building ever after.

    What is really lame, however, is consantly running candidates under other confusing labels and trying not to grow or gain ballot status … weak, cowardly, lazy, chickenshit, and a total lack of understanding of how to build the MA LP …

    And people like GP actually root against success and discourage the best strategies, because any LP victories and advances would expose their own failures and foolish advice and result in public ridicule.

    Time to move forward …

    The NY LP is ready and success is beckoning if the leaders there will take up the challenge. Of course more ambitious members of the NY LP needs to find and get behind a high quality candidate early, work for her or his nomination, raise $25k minimum and get on the air early to show their seriousness.

    If Davis, Edes and Schmidt each fall short for some reason, then get that candidate search fired up … the leaders of the 2014 NY LP gubernatorial campaign need to find their best prospect no later than the summer of 2013.

  9. Eric Sundwall

    Redlich saved his few pennies for a push the last two weeks of the campaign in targeted markets. We had the adverse circumstances of the ‘taxpayers party’, the ‘anti-prohibition party’, the ‘freedom party’ and the quirky Jimmy McMillan effort. Came up about 1500 shy. Best effort ever. There’s really no incentive for a ‘real’ or ‘serious’ candidate or effort in NY on the liberty scale other than the 50K pipe dream. Even that is strained considering the eventual colonization of the LPNY if ‘success’ occurs.

  10. Eric Sundwall

    Having spent a good deal of time with the NY media over the course of the campaign, it was difficult to assess if they took the GOP or Cuomo seriously. The derision over Paladino was palpable and the frustration with Cuomo’s non-announcement was obvious. We started our inside campaign with them as early as January. After the announcement we toured the Capitol press corps and re-established contacts I made in the 2009 special election. Our unique videos earned media on YNN and Fox Business Network. Our effort for inclusion into the debates was coupled with the Greens and manifested itself on WAMC, Talk1300 and NY Now. One day’s work. This was more than simply plopping down some dollars in the targeted media markets, which we eventually did. The local channels in Albany frequently gave Warren time. This all went beyond ‘leadership’ and ad spending.

  11. Eric Sundwall

    Relatively easy 50K? Voters place high emotional and ideological value on the top two candidates. There are only about 250K third party votes up for grabs out of about 4 million votes. Asking a voter to jump outside those boxes is hard. Thomas Golisano spent about 60 million dollars to get 16% of the vote in his best effort as an outsider.

    No one in the LPNY or LPUS doubts the value of ballot access in NY. But it is not “relatively easy”. Asking a handful of volunteers for their constant attention and devotion beyond their already challenged lives is not a cakewalk.

  12. Zapper

    The first 5% of the vote is low hanging fruit, and relatively easy. There are enough voters to make 5% or more in every state if we do our party building, run decent candidates and advertise.

    The lack of early advertising is the difference between a Gary Johnson 1% and 5% this year.

    You have to make the effort: recruit candidates early – always fund TV ads for the top of the ticket candidate, organize a stand-alone county affiliate in every county – with monthly meetings in each county, advertise the LP or a candidate on TV in advance of every state convention, know when to tell the media what you’re doing with press releases and when to let them “discover” what you’re doing (reporters get more excited and are more likely to cover things that they’ve “discovered” without a press release).

    Do these things, start now, and the LP NY will surpass 100k votes in 2014: you have about 15 months left to effectively organize a group in every county. You need to find a quality candidate by next summer. You need a media and fundraising plan by next September. You need a positive attitude, a plan and sincere desire to succeed, the right strategy and to take action.

    Up until now the LP has been held back by poor leadership, lack of good strategic planning and too much infighting.

    The naysayers here have two effective choices they are capable of: follow or get out of the way.

  13. Zapper

    @24 I don’t know the best people available to run and have no list of NY LPers to work with for organizing or recruiting. However, I would make calls if invited and will help with strategy, fundraising and will donate – as long as I’m living and breathing by then.

  14. Warren Redlich

    “Can Stone still be accurately described as a GOP insider? He seems to have had a falling out with them and even said Republican blood would “flow in the streets””

    Stone is an insider who continues to work with GOP candidates, such as Donald Trump (if he was ever a candidate) in 2012. While claiming to be on Davis’ campaign back in 2010, he was working behind the scenes with GOP candidate Paladino.

    Using his statements is an unreliable tool for assessing who he’s working for.

    But to be clear: If you are stupid enough to work with the evil scumbag, you deserve all the crap you will surely end up with. The Johnson campaign and the LNC ignored this advice and guess what – Ron Nielson is unhappy with Stone now.

  15. Warren Redlich

    “The full disclosure line is good, but calling Miller a “crony” mars the otherwise objective tone of this item.”

    Crony is an accurate term. I stand by it as an objective description. Miller was Davis’ campaign manager in 2010. Miller was on Paladino’s payroll in 2010 at the same time. Both candidates were working with Stone.

    Stone joins the Johnson campaign. Suddenly Miller is working as Judge Gray’s assistant.

    Now Davis is running for Mayor, announces Stone. Guess who is the contact person for her campaign? Miller.

    Crony. Please explain why this is inaccurate.

  16. Derek

    Get Howard Stern in there! A Stern for Governor run will easily get the Libertarians past 50,000 votes and can easily get at least into the low-teens! :D

  17. paulie

    Warren,

    I don’t think anyone is disputing that Miller is a Stone crony, associate or protege. For that matter I don’t think Miller or Stone would dispute it either. Some people are questioning the term crony in a news article, as it is seen as a loaded term. Associate or protege convey the same idea more neutrally. I scanned a few of the links you posted and I think protege is the term they used.

  18. paulie

    In regards to the Bill Still link, still writes

    I’m tired of having to go negative on Gov. Johnson, but as I’ve said before, his candidacy represents a takeover of the Libertarian Party — not only by the Republican Party — but the most nasty, pro-Federal Reserve wing of the Republican Party.

    Gary Johnson was openly calling for a fed audit even as a Republican candidate. As a Libertarian candidate, he was saying END the fed often and clearly.

  19. paulie

    You should have also followed the youtubes, twitter feed, live speeches, media interviews, and other sources/coverage of the campaign, like I did every day.

    I’m not making this up, it did become an issue in the campaign, and not a “barely mentioned” one at all. The website was just a small piece of the campaign.

  20. Warren Redlich

    The Fed was campaign strategy to appeal to Paul fans. Johnson never cared about the Fed before and still doesn’t.

    Just because a politician says something doesn’t mean he believes it.

    Johnson was and still is a pot smoking Republican. Don’t fool yourself into believing he’s anything else.

  21. paulie

    That will certainly simplify matters if he jumps parties again.

    Or it may have been a matter of not having enough people and time to do everything that needed doing. Do you have any reason to suspect he will switch parties again?

  22. paulie

    The Fed was campaign strategy to appeal to Paul fans. Johnson never cared about the Fed before and still doesn’t.

    How do you know what he actually does or doesn’t care about?

    Just because a politician says something doesn’t mean he believes it.

    That’s true of anyone.


    Johnson was and still is a pot smoking Republican. Don’t fool yourself into believing he’s anything else.

    He’s not a Republican, and if he is telling the truth he no longer smokes pot, he only smoked it temporarily due to medical necessity. You’ve also been a Republican elected official and I believe you said you are on your Republican town or county committee now, so I’m not sure what you mean by that exactly.

    While many of the differences that Johnson had with the Republican establishment were and are the same ones Ron Paul had, he’s also pro-choice, pro-marriage equality and pro-immigration rights, so he’s not just kowtowing to either Ron Paul or the Republican establishment.

    Marriage equality was one of his top campaign issues; Ron Paul and the Republican establishment are both against it. How’s that a “pot smoking Republican”?

  23. Thane Eichenauer

    Relative to the regulation, reform, audit or elimination of the Federal Reserve there is a point to made that given a default position of distrust that voters should not presume by default that any given candidate favors or opposes any given government reform. This should apply to Gary Johnson or any other candidate. I personally use a candidate web site as a plumb line to determine if a given candidate supports or opposes a given reform or not.
    Gary Johnson’s web site has two position pages that cover financial issues. One Redlich mentions @40 but the page he doesn’t mention is:
    http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/issues/spending-and-the-deficit
    which *clearly* supports limiting the scope of the Federal Reserve, auditing it and making it subject to control by the Federal government.
    If you are an average American voter with an interest in learning what Gary Johnson’s take on the Federal Reserve is and you have three minutes to spare watching an official campaign video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF367w4nI1E
    I can critique Johnson and his campaign support of the FairTax but his support of auditing the Federal Reserve is clear.
    As to whether Gary Johnson and Jim Gray remain Libertarians over the long term, I imagine they will remain Libertarians so long as the Libertarian Party is a viable vehicle for informing and persuading voters.

  24. paulie

    Many statements later in the campaign went beyond just auditing the federal reserve into ending it outright.

    As for the fraudulent tax, yes, I differ with Johnson on that one – that’s never been a secret.

  25. Mark Axinn

    Thank you Warren for running this piece.

    I certainly hope we have a candidate in 2014 who works as hard and does as exemplary a job as you did in 2010 in promoting freedom and personal responsibility instead of welfare/warfare state politics as usual.

    As Warren, Eric and I know only too well, 50,000 votes for Governor in New York is no cake-walk. Only one person came close in our 40 years of trying.

  26. paulie

    I think 2014 could be a great opportunity if you can find the right candidate. I don’t think the Republicans are likely to be competitive, and libertarianism as an ideology is on the rise.

    In the states that allow Libertarian voter registration, it has risen considerably in the last 4 years. For those who subscribe to Ballot Access News there is a chart in the new issue, which I’m not allowed to share yet.

  27. Mark Axinn

    In 2010, third parties in New York were aided tremendously by a weak Republican candidate and the fact that Cuomo supported allowing all seven candidates on the ballot to be included in the televised Hofstra debate. Warren’s fine performance there definitely enhanced our vote total, as was the case too for Howie Hawkins (Green), Kristin Davis (Anti-Prohibition) and Jimmy McMillen (you know about the rent already).

    There is zero chance that Cuomo won’t seek a second term, so we have a terrific opportunity to capitalize on the “Don’t Waste Your Vote” on the Democrat or Republican, since Cuomo is a shoo-in and the Republican Party in New York is currently moribund.

  28. Mark Axinn

    Thane @47.

    Jim Gray is solidly libertarian on a world of issues, not just ending drug prohibition. A truly fine American with a clear understanding of what it means to promote freedom and individual responsibility.

  29. Thane Eichenauer

    @52
    No disrespect intended. I has Jim Gray’s assistant for a day when he was in Phoenix, Arizona. Gray did a fine job of advocating for freedom (and the Libertarian Party) as well as the Fair Tax while he was here. Gary Johnson did a great job of advocating for freedom (and the Libertarian Party) here in Phoenix and elsewhere in America. I wish them both (and myself) a long and productive term as advocates of freedom.

    I have met another fervent supporter of the Fair Tax here in Arizona. He is sincere in his support of the Fair Tax.

    Even after meeting all three of them I still think advocacy of the Fair Tax is at the very best a non-negative as far as freedom and the Libertarian Party is concerned and for the other 183 days of the year is a concept that doesn’t advocate for an increase freedom.

  30. PeterO

    Paulie’s response in 37 is what I meant by criticizing the use of the term. The fellow certainly does sound like a crony, but it is not an objective term to use in what is otherwise a very balanced news item.

  31. NewFederalist

    I agree with you PeterO. Words like “crony” or “henchmen” just don’t fit in a news article. They are very editorial in nature.

  32. Mark Axinn

    Thane @53–No disrespect taken. Just wanted to point out what a great guy Jim Gray is.

    On Andrew Miller:

    He and I are co-plaintiffs in an important lawsuit challenging a statute in NY which prohibits a candidate who petitions and qualifies for the ballot under two independent bodies (in this case Libertarian and Anti-Prohibition Parties) to appear on both lines; the BOE makes the candidate choose and leaves the space in the other column blank!

    In that case, Miller testified that he is “a protege of Roger Stone.”

  33. Thane Eichenauer

    @54
    It means that on some days that I can either tolerate or ignore Fair Tax advocacy by Johnson and Gray. On most days 50.1% of the time ((365.25-(365.25-183))/365.25) it is still an ongoing concern and irritation.

  34. Andy

    “Mark Axinn // Nov 30, 2012 at 10:04 pm

    Thane @47.

    Jim Gray is solidly libertarian on a world of issues, not just ending drug prohibition. A truly fine American with a clear understanding of what it means to promote freedom and individual responsibility.”

    He’s good for the most part, but it should be pointed out that he came out against fully informing jurors of their right to nullify laws.

    I consider jury nullification to be one of the most important issues that there is, and something that everyone in the Libertarian Party should be far more vocal about supporting.

  35. Trent Hill

    “but it is not an objective term to use in what is otherwise a very balanced news item.”

    Yep. ^

  36. Let the T-Rex of Talk Radio Entertain U2day

    @59 Andy – “I consider jury nullification to be one of the most important issues that there is, and something that everyone in the Libertarian Party should be far more vocal about supporting.”

    I strongly agree. And if true I hate to hear the judge doesn’t agree.

    It would be super great it NY can agree on their G candidate early and everyone pull together to benefit all NY and US Ls by gaining ballot access in this major state. My question is: would success mean ballot access for ’16 and ’18 or just for ’16 ?

  37. Mark Axinn

    Andy @59 and T-Rex at 61:

    1. I agree that jury nullification is important, and I have been a lawyer for 31 years! Back in the mid-90’s a friend and I were almost arrested handing out FIJA material in front of the Brooklyn Courthouse.

    2. But few of us score 100/100 on the Nolan chart so there are often one or two issues where someone is not wholly in agreement with those of us who do score that. Jim Gray is the son of a federal Judge and he was a Judge himself; it’s okay if he doesn’t agree with this one issue, even if it’s an important one. Heck, I disagree with Dr. Paul on abortion and immigration, two huge issues, but I certainly would rather see him in there than Obamney.

  38. Mark Axinn

    T-rex @ 61.

    In New York, ballot access is determined solely by vote total in the Gubernatorial race. If we get 50,000 votes for Governor, we have ballot access for four years. Until 2010. the best we ever did was when a different Gary Johnson got 24,000 votes back in 1990. Twenty years later, some guy who is now editing this website doubled that result, but we still were shy by a little under 1700 votes.

    So if we can build on the momentum like Howie Hawkins did for the Green Party in 2010 and break the 50K barrier in 2014, the LP will have ballot status in New York for the 2016 Pres. race, the 2017 NYC Mayor’s race and the 2018 Gubernatorial race. It will save the LPNY and LNC at least $80,000 in 2016 and 2018, money we sure can use in better ways than paying petitioners (sorry Paulie!).

  39. Warren Redlich

    So protege, which has a positive connotation, is objective. But crony, with it’s negative connotation, is subjective.

    Folks, Roger Stone is evil. That’s an objective statement. He revels in being evil. That makes the negative connotation appropriate.

    But … I see where you are coming from and I will let it go. I appreciate the comments and will try to do better in the future.

  40. Matt Cholko

    It certainly is unfortunate that Judge Gray wishes to hide the truth from jurors. As a former judge, he is in a great position to do much good for the jury nullification cause.

    Overall, Gray and Johnson were just barely libertarian enough for me to truly support them. Advocating the (un)Fair Tax was about the dumbest-assed thing I’ve ever seen from a Libertarian candidate (I said ABOUT, as I’ve heard some really dumb stuff). There are other disagreements I had with them on policy, but those were on less-emphasized issues, so I was able to look past them for the most part.

  41. NewFederalist

    @ 65… I would use “associate” instead of either “crony” or “protege” if a balanced news item is the goal. If not then it is up to the author what message he (or she) is trying to convey. I just look at words which have an emotion embedded within them as detracting from a true news story. It happens everyday in the MSM but I guess I have just been sensitized to it.

  42. Chris Edes

    For the record, my decision making process is as follows:

    I’m not going to learn much more from running campaigns that I’m not likely to win. I’m not interested in running for office again unless the conditions are especially favorable. The only exception I would make, is a race where we can accomplish something unusually beneficial without winning the election. Due to the ballot access requirements in NYS, the 2014 gubernatorial election is such a race.

    Any future plans I have would be greatly facilitated by our gaining recognized party status in NYS. If someone else emerges who is a principled libertarian, and not associated with Roger Stone — and I feel that person has a better chance of getting 50,000 votes — then it is in my interest as well as everyone else’s to step aside for that person.

    We can’t wait forever though. We consistently fail to reach our goals because we start our campaigns too late. The major party candidates will be starting their campaigns a year early, and we need to also. I have an infrastructure in place, contacts, a degree of momentum, and a useful rapport with the press in some regions. I also just ran for statewide office and so I have a handle on what that involves, and what I might do better next time. Starting earlier is learned lesson #1.

    Therefore, for these reasons, I am going ahead with seeking the nomination and will begin the process of building a campaign team. We usually run 6-7 month campaigns; I am planning to run a 18-21 month campaign. That is how we will get the 50,000 votes, or at least this is the best plan I have yet seen put forward.

    Also: I am not going to cut my hair.

  43. paulie

    It means that on some days that I can either tolerate or ignore Fair Tax advocacy by Johnson and Gray. On most days 50.1% of the time ((365.25-(365.25-183))/365.25) it is still an ongoing concern and irritation.

    Thanks for the explanation. I don’t know why I managed to fail in understanding you the first time :-)

  44. paulie

    It will save the LPNY and LNC at least $80,000 in 2016 and 2018, money we sure can use in better ways than paying petitioners (sorry Paulie!).

    Why be sorry? I support that.

    My objective with ballot access is to gradually eliminate the LP as a client because we are already on the ballot with continuous retention. I still get R and D clients so that goal may never be achieved. But I welcome steps in that direction.

  45. paulie

    protege, which has a positive connotation

    I’ve always thought of it as neutral, not positive. But if you think it’s positive hopefully you will agree that associate is neutral.

  46. Gene Berkman

    I think many people overlook the very real problem with jury nullification. People who are libertarian go out of their way to avoid jury duty, because the pay is inadequate and it takes away from our real job.

    Juries are composed of retired people, who often feel insecure and want to lock people up. Other jurors are government employees, because they still get their pay, and many of them would tend to side with the prosecution because they are government employees.

    If a jury composed of religious people vote to acquit someone for bombing an abortion clinic, do you still think jury nullification is a good idea?

    Or how about southern juries that several times acquitted Byron de la Beckwith in the Klan organized murder of Medgar Evers?

    Judge Gray supports the rule of law, which is a cornerstone of protecting liberty. I have seen juries, and I hesitate to count on them to protect our freedoms.

  47. Andy

    “Gene Berkman // Dec 3, 2012 at 9:38 pm

    I think many people overlook the very real problem with jury nullification. People who are libertarian go out of their way to avoid jury duty, because the pay is inadequate and it takes away from our real job.”

    This is true. I think that if more people knew about jury nullification, more people would be willing to serve on juries.

    There are millions of people in this country who don’t like the drug laws and/or gun control laws, and/or the income tax and/or many other laws against things that should not be considered to be crimes. Very few of these people know about jury nullification. If Libertarians could disseminate this information about jury nullification to a enough of these people it could have a big effect, and this would be a good thing.

    “Juries are composed of retired people, who often feel insecure and want to lock people up. Other jurors are government employees, because they still get their pay, and many of them would tend to side with the prosecution because they are government employees.”

    Yes, it is true that many of the people who serve on juries are old people that have got nothing better to do with their time, and that many of these people want to lock people up and these are people who for the most part do not care if the law is legitimate or not (from a libertarian perspective). This is a problem, and this is why it is so important for libertarians to disseminate information about jury nullification to as many people as possible.

    “If a jury composed of religious people vote to acquit someone for bombing an abortion clinic, do you still think jury nullification is a good idea?”

    Sure, just as long as no innocent person was killed or injured in the bombing.

    “Or how about southern juries that several times acquitted Byron de la Beckwith in the Klan organized murder of Medgar Evers?”

    I think that the majority of people know that murder is wrong. Also, the example you cited happened during a time when the concept of jury nullification had ALREADY been supressed. So this example does absolutely nothing to overturn my point.

    I don’t doubt that there’d be times when juries make bad decisions even if every jury in the country was fully informed of its right to nullify the law, however, I think that most people instinctively know the difference between right and wrong. Most people know that murder is wrong. Most people know that rape is wrong. Most people know that stealing is wrong. I think that we’d be better off in society if juries were truly selected on more random basis (as in eliminating voir dire), and that if all jurors were fully informed of their right to judge not only the facts in a case, but also the validity of the law itself.

    “Judge Gray supports the rule of law, which is a cornerstone of protecting liberty. I have seen juries, and I hesitate to count on them to protect our freedom.”

    Wow, this is a very statist statement. Let’s put our faith in government employees to pass and enforce laws, and to always do the right thing. This is not libertarian at all, and I’d certainly rather take my chances with 12 jurors selected at random out of the general public and armed with the knowledge that they have the right to judge the facts in the case as well as the law itself, than to put my faith in government officials.

  48. Andy

    “paulie // Dec 3, 2012 at 8:58 pm

    ‘It will save the LPNY and LNC at least $80,000 in 2016 and 2018, money we sure can use in better ways than paying petitioners (sorry Paulie!).’

    Why be sorry? I support that.

    My objective with ballot access is to gradually eliminate the LP as a client because we are already on the ballot with continuous retention. I still get R and D clients so that goal may never be achieved. But I welcome steps in that direction.”

    Mark Axin is acting as though the Libertarian Party is the only game in town when it comes to working as a petitioner. It’s not. If one is willing to work other parties or candidates, there are quite a few of them, plus there is plenty of work on ballot initiatives, referenda, and recall petitions, and occasionally there are non-binding petitions (also known as plebiscite petitions) which pay. Really, petitioning for candidates/parties is really only a small part of the petition business. Initiative and referenda petitions is where the big money is.

    Also, even if the Libertarian Party did not have to petition to place candidates on the ballot, the party could still hire people to do other things, such as voter registration, door-to-door canvasing, college campus organizing, etc…. So there’d still be plenty of work even if the Libertarian Party did not have to hire petitioners.

    I’m frankly surprised at how short sighted many people in the Libertarian Party are when it comes to petitioning for ballot access, especially people who have been elected to positions within the party such as State Chairs or members of the LNC.

    What do I mean by this? I’ve always seen ballot access petitioning for the Libertarian Party is a lot more than just going out and gathering a bunch of signatures. I’ve always seen it as an opportunity to spread the Libertarian Party messages to thousands of people in one-on-one face-to-face conversations. Sure, having to get signatures is a pain, but if you also use it as an opportunity to disseminate the Libertarian message, and to gather contact information from members of the public who are interested in the Libertarian Party, then petitioning for ballot access can actually be a great way to grow the party. I’ve long advocated that the Libertarian Party should mostly hire actual Libertarian activist to work as ballot access petitioners, only supplementing them with non-libertarian mercenaries when not enough actual libertarians can be found to get the job done, and that these Libertarian activist petitioners ought to be handed lots of Libertarian outreach material and should be encouraged to distribute it to interested members of the public, and they should all also carry contact lists so they can get contact information (names, mailing addresses, email addresses, and phone numbers) from people they encounter in the public who are interested in the Libertarian Party.

    It is quite unfortunate that the vast majority of people in the Libertarian Party who get elected to positions within the party fail to understand this, or even seem to give a rat’s behind when you try to explain it to them. I know that the Libertarian Party has conducted large petition drives where not even one actual libertarian worked as a paid petitioner, which means that basically no Libertarian Party outreach took place during the drive.

    One would think that after 41 years as a political party that the Libertarian Party would have enough institutional knowledge about how best to conduct ballot access drives, and that this knowledge would actually be utilized, but I can tell you that it is not.

    The attitude that I get from most Libertarian Party officials when it comes to ballot access, is that they don’t really care how it gets done, and they seem to take the monkey in cage at the zoo throwing feces at the wall type of approach to getting on the ballot. This is why the Libertarian Party did not make it on the ballot in Oklahoma this year, and it is also why there was a near miss in that fiasco in Pennsylvania this year.

  49. Let the T-Rex of Talk Radio Entertain U2day

    @ 63 Thanks Mark for the info. Please excuse my ignorance about NY rules (laws) however I checked Dave Liep’s Atlas site and it says the Rs and Ds are fusion campaigns. Even so, wouldn’t the Independence , Workers, Conservative and Taxpayers Party, etc. have to have 50k votes show up in their column during the G race each cycle to retain access ?

    Upon looking at the county charts I think this is definitely doable! If you guys get the help and donations it should be easy. Easy because there are so many votes out there in the upstate areas and elsewhere you haven’t even reached yet.

    In addition to a normal LP issues campaign for Gov. a “gimmick” like the rent guy used last time would help. Such as NO sales tax on food or no sales tax on coats and jackets in Sept., etc. just something “catchy”to tie the campaign to and then let the voters know they are sending a message to the legislature with each vote for you.

    As Edes says start campaigning 18 to 21 months out (Feb.-May ’13) which isn’t far away !

    As an alternative Party I’m very big on beating the wasted vote downer with “SENDING THEM A MESSAGE” campaigns. With Cuomo winning by 1.5M noone in their right mind can feel their one vote will decide the race. Get them to use their vote “TO SEND A MESSAGE” to the Legislature by voting for the Libertarian for Gov.!

    Mine for out of state donors with the simple plea: Can you spare $80 to save the NYLP $80,000 on Ballot Access over each of the next two elections? Please Donate to the *^^* Campaign for Gov. ! This could generate some much needed funds for radio and TV if possible ! Also some out of state LP members and friends might be willing to come in upstate or Long Island for a few days (of their vacation/retirements-lol) and hand out pamplets, put up road signs, and/or phonebank etc. to help you reach the goal!

    One very IMPORTANT thing you guys must do. Have poll watchers at the largest precincts in as many counties as possible especially to be there while the counting process is going on. You might want to work with the Greens and other alternatives to cover more ground. Start with the largest Counties and work down as the volunteers will allow, so you will have a total vote to match to the official total for the largest precinct. By watching the 10 to twenty largest precincts in the 20 to 30 largest counties you ensure you will receive the majority of your votes. It is harder to “STUFF” or “FLUSH” boxes in small precinct as it will stick out and be more noticeable, And if they do flush some of your votes in some smaller counties it won’t hurt as bad as it could in the large ones you are watching.

    Anyone who feels the Ds and Rs are above cheating are a naive soul. You can trust if you wish, but do VERIFY when possible!

    CARPE DIEM!

  50. Zapper

    @80 Having an organized effort to provide poll watchers is a good idea. The Ds and Rs will and do cheat regularly in the counting and reporting process.

    Limitations in manpower make it most likely that you will have to rely on volunteers watching polls that are either their own voting place or close to where they live. To the extent possible, it would be desireable to “watch” the polling places with the most potential votes for the LP candidate rather than just the largest population.

  51. paulie

    I’ve always seen ballot access petitioning for the Libertarian Party is a lot more than just going out and gathering a bunch of signatures. I’ve always seen it as an opportunity to spread the Libertarian Party messages to thousands of people in one-on-one face-to-face conversations. Sure, having to get signatures is a pain, but if you also use it as an opportunity to disseminate the Libertarian message, and to gather contact information from members of the public who are interested in the Libertarian Party, then petitioning for ballot access can actually be a great way to grow the party. I’ve long advocated that the Libertarian Party should mostly hire actual Libertarian activist to work as ballot access petitioners, only supplementing them with non-libertarian mercenaries when not enough actual libertarians can be found to get the job done, and that these Libertarian activist petitioners ought to be handed lots of Libertarian outreach material and should be encouraged to distribute it to interested members of the public, and they should all also carry contact lists so they can get contact information (names, mailing addresses, email addresses, and phone numbers) from people they encounter in the public who are interested in the Libertarian Party.

    Yep.

  52. Mark Axinn

    This is an old thread, but I just re-read it and realized I was remiss in not thanking Andy, Paulie and T-Rex for all their good advice on petitioning in the last few comments.

    Thanks guys.

  53. Andy

    “Mark Axinn // Feb 3, 2013 at 10:41 pm

    This is an old thread, but I just re-read it and realized I was remiss in not thanking Andy, Paulie and T-Rex for all their good advice on petitioning in the last few comments.

    Thanks guys.”

    Did you read my comment about filing a law suit to overturn the unconstitutional (and absurd) out-of-state petition circulator ban in the state of New York?

    Similar bans have been thrown out in court in other states, such as Virginia, Ohio, South Dakota (although thus far they are only applying it to party petitions), Nebraska, Oklahoma, Arizona, and Washington DC (technically not a state, but this is beside the point). I think that there is a good chance that the out-of-state petition circulator ban in New York could be thrown out if somebody would challenge it in court.

    This would ease ballot access in New York because then groups doing petitions in New York could hire whoever they wanted to hire as petition circulators (and this would also help with brining in volunteer petitioners from out-of-state as well) and they would not have to worry about having witnesses or who signs off on the declarations.

  54. Andy

    Paulie said: “While many of the differences that Johnson had with the Republican establishment were and are the same ones Ron Paul had, he’s also pro-choice,”

    Note that as Governor of New Mexico, GARY JOHNSON SIGNED A BILL THAT BANNED LATE TERM ABORTIONS, PLUS HE FAVORED PARENTAL NOTIFICATION IF A MINOR WANTED TO GET AN ABORTION.

    Gary Johnson also advocated that abortion be decided on a sate level, as in each state coming up with its own laws (or lack of laws) concerning abortion.

    So Gary Johnson’s position on abortion really was not that far from Ron Paul’s position.

    “pro-marriage equality and pro-immigration rights, so he’s not just kowtowing to either Ron Paul or the Republican establishment.”

    Gary Johnson was in favor of some kind of border check point to screen out immigrants with communicable diseases or had criminal backgrounds.

    Also, it is a distortion of Ron Paul’s actual voting record to claim that he is anti-immigrant. For instance, Ron Paul voted to INCREASE visas for foreign workers, and he also voted against building a fence along the Mexican border several times.

    “Marriage equality was one of his top campaign issues; Ron Paul and the Republican establishment are both against it.”

    Ron Paul is not against marriage equality. He just points out that marriage is not a federal issue, and that all issues that are not federal are to be left to the states or the people. Ron Paul has actually stated that he supports the true libertarian stance on marriage, and that is that the government should not be in the business of licensing marriage at all.

  55. Jill Pyeatt

    I was disappointed that Rand Paul came out this week and said he didn’t “get” gay marriage. He sure gets things wrong sometimes. I’m glad he makes it clear he’s a Republican. I’m hoping he’s just a “work in progress”.

  56. Andy

    “Jill Pyeatt // Feb 4, 2013 at 4:03 am

    I was disappointed that Rand Paul came out this week and said he didn’t ‘get’ gay marriage.”

    I’m not sure exactly what Rand Paul meant by this, but it would not be the first time that he’s said something cringe worthy.

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