Free and Equal Debate Thread

No one will be in charge, per se, of liveblogging this event. But this is the relevant place for IPR commenters to leave their thoughts on the debate that is being aired on C-Span, Al-Jazeera English, Ora.tv, and LinkTV. The debate will be moderated by Larry King and the participants include former Virginia Congressman Virgil Goode of the Constitution Party, former New Mexico Governor Gary Johnson of the Libertarian Party, Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party, and former Salt Lake City Mayor Rocky Anderson of the Justice Party.

We’d also like to encourage everyone to make predictions on which two candidates will “win” the debate and move on to the second Free and Equal Debate.

172 thoughts on “Free and Equal Debate Thread

  1. Trent Hill Post author

    I predict Jill Stein and Gary Johnson move on the next round. Johnson is a sure thing–he will move on almost no matter what.

    I’d rather see Johnson and Goode move on, though. They’re the two most qualified and the two that the average voter will take most seriously.

  2. Kyle Kneale

    While I agree with @1 about the qualifications, I think Stein has more popular support than Goode overall. I know few hold stock in polls but many that have included candidates outside of top 2 show Stein is currently beating Goode.

    Johnson will almost surely move on and I think Stein will as well.

  3. Trent Hill Post author

    Johnson will go through cleanly. Rocky Anderson won’t. The question is basically who the second participant will be, Stein or Goode. They’ll probably have roughly equivalent support, so all that will matter are how the neutrals vote. As the only woman on the stage and due to Goode’s regional accent–I think Stein gets it.

  4. Just Asking

    What’s the rationale behind excluding the other minor-party candidates, especially since Virgil Goode and Rocky Anderson aren’t on enough ballots to theoretically win on Nov. 6th?

    Free & Equal is nothing more than a lame, third-party version of the CPD. It’s shameful.

  5. Catholic Trotskyist

    Where do people vote for the two winners?

    The Catholic Trotskyist Party might be able to liveblog the debate on this thread. We co-endorse Anderson and Goode, although we still endorse Barack Obama in the actual election.

  6. Thane Eichenauer

    @6
    The Free and Equal promotional video states that six candidates were invited. That seems like plenty of choices to me.
    http://youtu.be/aG0poPqewlc

    I wasn’t able to determine via searching the freeandequal.org web site what criteria they used for inviting the initial six (of which four apparently accepted).

    As for other candidates, which candidate(s) do you think should have been included but weren’t?

  7. Thane Eichenauer

    @8
    I imagine that since their announcement:
    http://freeandequal.org/updates/second-2012-presidential-debate-october-30-in-washington-dc/
    states that viewers will “choose which two candidates advance to the final debate on October 30 via instant runoff voting online. The debate will be broadcast live online and will focus on international issues.” that there will be an intermission during the video where the voting URL will be announced. This is only a guess. Your guess may be as good as mine. It is only a guess.

  8. Just Asking

    @8. “As for other candidates, which candidate(s) do you think should have been included but weren’t?”

    Oh, I don’t know, but if Free & Equal had been really serious about drawing the largest audience possible it might have made sense to include the Peace & Freedom Party’s nominee.

    The P&FP, after all, is the only minor-party ticket in this race with two nationally-recognized candidates: Roseanne Barr and antiwar activist Cindy Sheehan.

    Roseanne’s presence in tonight’s debate — and she desperately wanted to participate — almost certainly would have attracted a tremendous amount of attention. It would have been a win-win for the third-party community, drawing a much larger audience than one might otherwise expect.

    Instead, viewers will be treated to four candidates most Americans have never heard of before.

  9. Just Asking

    @ Orange Mike #12. That’s precisely why Roseanne should have been invited. She’s the only one talking about the working-class and the poor, how the affluent are turning this into a nation of wage and debt slaves.

    In the meantime, talk among yourselves.

  10. From Der Sidelines

    @13 A national write-in campaign by a bad comedian is a joke in itself. That’s why Ms. National Anthem Screecher is being excluded. That and the minute anyone takes her seriously she gets buried by that past as unpatriotic.

    That and the P&F is only in the ballot in California and Colorado, and mathematically can’t win. That begs the question as to why Anderson and Goode are there, too.

  11. From Der Sidelines

    Shoot the musicians.

    Tobin needs to learn how to read a script in conversational language instead of Hooked on Phonics.

  12. Catholic Trotskyist

    Start the debate already. Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla. And Johnson leans a little more to the right; hahahahahaha.

  13. Oranje Mike

    #13, Gary Johnson speaks for the poor and working class. I say this as part of the working class.

  14. Bible Believing Christian

    Red Phillips, how dare you make such blasphemous comments and claim to be a lover of God and the Constitution? I’m glad God will be sentencing you to burn in eternal hellfire for falling in love with such a godless communist sinner

  15. Oranje Mike

    I’m loving the Top Two discussion. I hope my fellow Arizonans are watching and hearing these words of wisdom.

  16. Glenn

    What happened to the opening remarks?

    Top Two is a pretty lame question for 1 of only 6 questions in the debate. Very few people know anything about it and it has little to do with electing a President.

  17. Catholic Trotskyist

    Yes; not a good question, and I support Top Two, but all are speaking pretty well, with Anderson being the best. Goode’s voice is pretty annoying.

  18. Oranje Mike

    #27, the Top Two people have lots of money. It’s in place in California, Washington and Louisiana and could come to Arizona. If it passes here it could spread like wildfire and destroy more states. This is a great platform to get it out there to the masses.

  19. Matt Cholko

    Top Two does not belong in the debate. It is third party inside baseball.

    Speeches by moderators also do not belong in the debate.

    Questions similar to those asked at the CPD’s debates would be ideal, IMHO.

  20. paulie

    She’s the only one talking about the working-class and the poor, how the affluent are turning this into a nation of wage and debt slaves.

    All are in different ways. Stein and Anderson pretty similar to Roseanne on this. The others have different approaches, recognizing the same root problem.

  21. paulie

    The P&FP, after all, is the only minor-party ticket in this race with two nationally-recognized candidates: Roseanne Barr and antiwar activist Cindy Sheehan.

    Roseanne’s presence in tonight’s debate — and she desperately wanted to participate — almost certainly would have attracted a tremendous amount of attention. It would have been a win-win for the third-party community, drawing a much larger audience than one might otherwise expect.

    So help me organize a different debate and invite her inside of knocking Christina’s. Not the first time I made this suggestion.

  22. Thane Eichenauer

    @32
    I would disagree. Top two is being proposed via initative for adoption in Arizona. It is in effect in three states. If it is adopted in Arizona and other states in the future then the election system of states will either benefit or be negatively affected (depending upon whether you think it is an improvement or not).
    If CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC or Fox want to put on another multiparty presidential debate and omit Top Two (otherwise known as jungle primary) then it is welcome to do so.

  23. Phil

    I’m wondering what the difference is between the Green and Justice parties?? I think Johnson is winning.

  24. From Der Sidelines

    Stein’s belated opening statement shows she has no idea what she’s talking about, invoking class warfare statements and other leftwing claptrap.

    Anderson is doing similar.

    Goode has a drawl that makes Foxworthy sound like Bill Buckley. He’d look right at home in a Confederate uniform. Totally un-Presidential.

    Johnson is on point and emphatic.

  25. Oranje Mike

    #38, I wonder the same myself. Then again I also wonder why there is a Democratic and Republican party today when they are one in the same.

  26. Oranje Mike

    Of course marijuana is a health risk. Smoke is not supposed to be in your lungs. It is, however, a personal choice. What kind of doctor would say it’s not a health risk? Jill Stein is a dunce.

  27. JamesT

    Virgil Goode has clearly never read the constitution…even Baldwin was for drug laws to be left to the state level.

  28. Thomas L. Knapp

    While I’m not a state socialist myself, it would have been nice to see an authentically socialist/progressive candidate (i.e. Barr) as opposed to the two “left-wing” candidates who basically just want to take the US back to a 1950s-tye liberal consensus / industrial capitalism.

  29. From Der Sidelines

    @43 Taint bigoted, Red. There is an expectation of the office that the person in it is articulate and not have an accent. Kennedy had that problem in his time, so did both Johnsons. The overall impression in international circles is that a Southern drawl indicates the person with it is missing a few IQ points. Not saying it’s fair, just that it’s there.

  30. Mike S

    If you know much about the Iranian people you would probably find they are not with their leadership.

  31. Ben Schattenburg

    4 questions in and Stein and Anderson have had essentially the same answers to every question. Can someone explain to me the point of having a Green Party and a Justice Party?

  32. From Der Sidelines

    Johnson NAILS the college tuition cost/loan problem. He doesn’t get to the rest of it, which is that a HS diploma needs to have value again such that everyone doesn’t *need* to go to college.

    Stein calls for socialized college for free, not workable, compares public K-12 to college, does not follow. Free college simply further devalues HS diplomas and Bachelors degrees.

    Anderson doesn’t see the other point which is the continued dumbing-down of K-12 education is part of the problem. Also calls for free college.

    Goode says cut Pell Grants, Perkins, and Stafford loans.

    Johnson shoots down Stein in the first sentence of rebuttal. Clincher would be saying TANSTAAFL, but he doesn’t mention it.

    Anderson tries to rebut Johnson, calls it a need but doesn’t address how to pay for it. Fails the point.

    Stein echoes Anderson, goes into rhetoric and not any specifics.

    Goode ties Anderson and Stein to Obama and Romney.

  33. Thane Eichenauer

    @45
    They could have identical answers and still be the preferred choice of a given voter based on their background and prior accomplishments. I advocate for a free market in candidates.
    “Free Market Revolution” by Ayn Rand Institute

  34. Mike S

    The NDAA was cited as unconstitutional but then overriden by a higher court. (due to pressure from where?)

  35. paulie

    While I’m not a state socialist myself, it would have been nice to see an authentically socialist/progressive candidate (i.e. Barr) as opposed to the two “left-wing” candidates who basically just want to take the US back to a 1950s-tye liberal consensus / industrial capitalism.

    Help me put one together then?

  36. RedPhillips

    “There is an expectation of the office that the person in it is articulate and not have an accent.”

    First of all, an accent has nothing to do with being articulate. Goode is very articulate. Actually his type of Southern accent tends to over-enunciate.

    But if there is an expectation of no accent, then that needs to be challenged. People should be proud of who they are and not be forced to change to meet some blah mean. I say this about Goode, but I would say this about someone with a Boston accent or a New York accent also.

  37. paulie

    Kennedy had that problem in his time,

    JFK’s sounded respectable, Teddy’s not so much, especially after a few drinks. Seewhatimean, Red?

  38. Phil

    I noticed that although Stein and Anderson are exactly alike on issues. Stein uses the word Green more and Anderson says the word Justice more.

  39. Joe Buchman

    Each one of these candidates is far superior to the duopoly candidate(s).

    Gary Johnson, IMO, is far superior to every other presidential candidate except, perhaps, Thomas Jefferson.

  40. paulie

    I noticed that although Stein and Anderson are exactly alike on issues. Stein uses the word Green more and Anderson says the word Justice more.

    Sounds legit and compelling.

  41. paulie

    People should be proud of who they are and not be forced to change to meet some blah mean. I say this about Goode, but I would say this about someone with a Boston accent or a New York accent also.

    Agreed. The problem with Virgil’s speaking style is not that it is regional.

  42. paulie

    superior to every other presidential candidate except, perhaps, Thomas Jefferson.

    Jefferson had some impressive accomplishments. His presidency was not one of them.

  43. Oranje Mike

    As the debate comes to a close, I stand by my earlier comments that Larry King was a poor choice for a moderator. This event was sloppy but I appreciate the efforts of everyone involved.

  44. RedPhillips

    Stein is simply wrong that there are no health issues with marijuana. Saying that she was speaking as an activist, not a doctor.

    Goode really bonged the drug question. Drugs are clearly a state issue. Federal drug laws are unconstitutional. I don’t think Goode understands his CP base.

  45. Kyle Kneale

    Agreed with @70. Larry, simply stated, only lent his name to this event. It was done in a sloppy manner because it was apparent Larry didn’t know what he was doing.

  46. Thomas L. Knapp

    Paulie,

    I’m not sure what I could do to help you set up a debate, but if I can do something, let me know what it is.

    Joe,

    You write:

    “Gary Johnson, IMO, is far superior to every other presidential candidate except, perhaps, Thomas Jefferson.”

    Johnson is superior to Jefferson in some ways, at least. Jefferson waged undeclared wars and had Aaron Burr and Co. illegally held by the military.

  47. Kyle Kneale

    GJ’s mention of his first term was a big no-go for me. He just openly admitted to holding back for an election.

  48. From Der Sidelines

    Amend the Constitution:

    Anderson: ERA + GBLT, not bad

    Goode: Term Limits, debatable, would never pass Congress

    Johnson: Term Limits, same issue

    Stein: overturn Citizens United. Her best answer all night.

    Nobody mentions Balanced Budget, repeal the 16th or 17th, or the best one, amend the 1st Amendment to simply say “Congress shall make no law.”

  49. paulie

    Question: Will there be a transcript of this to review later?

    Good question. If I find the answer I’ll let you know, and if you find out please do likewise.

  50. paulie

    I lose respect for people who try to shed their accent in favor of some blah indistinct accent. To me it is disrespecting your roots.

    Yeah! Friggin fuggebadoudit.

  51. Kyle Kneale

    @81 No No No. Don’t get me wrong, love GJ, voting for GJ, but holding back to get reelected isn’t any better than what we have now.

    Not the honesty that bugged me, the holding back bugged me.

  52. Thane Eichenauer

    @80 @83
    I can agree with both comments but I do think there is something to be said for striving to speak standard English (no accent). Accents are bad for universal comprehensibility.

  53. From Der Sidelines

    They are all on their game when bashing Obama and Romney, but in their own messages, Anderson and Stein are leftwing statist nuts and Goode is just as far on the right. Only Johnson, flu and all, made any sense.

  54. JamesT

    If I was a lefty I would talk Anderson over Stein. Gary Johnson did a good job. Virgil Goode embarrassed himself on the drug issue. Johnson reaffirmed my support for me.

  55. Tracy Jay

    Where do we vote for the winners of the debate?
    1. Gary Johnson 2. Rocky Anderson
    However only Jill has a mathematical chance of getting elected along side Johnson.

  56. Trent Hill Post author

    “I stand by my earlier comments that Larry King was a poor choice for a moderator.”

    Larry King is the only reason this debate got widespread coverage, including from C-SPAN, Oratv(which appears on the frontpage of Google right now), LinkTV, Al Jazeera English, abcnews, the AP, etc. He was an excellent choice.

  57. Glenn

    So Free And Equal which is very vocal opposition to the Top Two laws.

    Is running a debate that will only invite the Top Two.

  58. RedPhillips

    “What health issues?”

    The stereotype is true. The “amotivational syndrome” associated with chronic heavy marijuana use is real. It includes decreased testosterone, decreased memory, etc.. And of course there is no reason to believe that inhaling marijuana smoke into your lungs is benign when inhaling tobacco smoke is unhealthy. Why would it be? There is some evidence that marijuana smoke might have somewhat different effects on the lungs.

  59. Thomas L. Knapp

    I thought Anderson came off as the best in terms of personal presentation. Pretty smooth and polished.

    Goode, second place, for opposite reasons — downhome and populist in demeanor. The high pitch of his voice was a little grating, but I seem to recall that the first Republican president had a southern accent and a high-pitched voice.

    Stein was pretty amateurish, Johnson a little too car-salesmanish.

  60. Oranje Mike

    The Free and Equal site is already crashing.

    #100, this is for a second tier of the debate. I can live with it. With elections, never.

  61. From Der Sidelines

    @91: It simply is. The only way to keep it from happening is to term-limit all politicians to one term for all offices for life. That’s not gonna happen, either.

  62. Trent Hill Post author

    Free and Equal site seems to have crashed. Good problem to have, but they need to have prepared for this.

  63. paulie

    Runoff is at freeandequal.org going for 24 hrs, server was overloaded when I tried just now. For those in Dc next week I would guess they will be selling tickets through their website like they did with this one.

  64. Thomas L. Knapp

    OM @ 92,

    “Do any left-wingers believe success is earned and worked for?”

    Yes. But we often believe that the success that some people have earned and achieved is often stolen by others ;-)

  65. Trent Hill Post author

    Mike S, we ought to know sometime next week how many people accessed the website, how many people watched on OraTV, C-SPAN’s ratings, etc.

  66. Oranje Mike

    A debate should have different viewpoints so I’ll take Johnson and Stein. Rocky Anderson presents his views better than Stein (I personally think she sounds like a dolt) but Stein is actually relevant given her ballot status.

  67. Bill Wood

    Great having these Candidates on stage together thanks to everyone who worked at getting this debate together. Looked like Jill was reading a lot from prepared notes , I felt she should have thrown the cheat sheets away. Gary was on fire tonight.

  68. Oranje Mike

    #108, Left-wingers feel as if they’ve been wronged so they will actually wrong me and seize my hard earned money for their own personal use? I guess that’s mob mentality democracy at work in the Green Party.

  69. Kyle Kneale

    I know Jill has the better mathematical chance at winning, but I think Rocky deserves the second spot at the next debate after his performance tonight.

    Let’s not forget, Rocky more or less started from scratch this election cycle, the Greens at least had some organization.

    1.) Gary Johnson
    2.) Rocky Anderson
    3.) Jill Stein
    4.) Virgil Goode

  70. Thomas L. Knapp

    Red @ 111,

    Any risk to the lungs from inhaling marijuana is probably far less than that of tobacco, for the simple reason that marijuana smokers generally don’t go through e.g. 40 joints a day.

    THC is only one of more than 200 active compounds (cannabinoids) in marijuana.

  71. paulie

    paulie, on what ground would you believe that sucking marijuana smoke into your lungs would be B-9, as opposed to say taking a THC pill?

    THC pill has many bad side effects. Marijuana is a mix of things that work together, not just THC. The “evidence” for its toxicity as smoke is strapping helmets on monkeys and filling them with doses that no one uses, cutting off their oxygen supply. There are better studies showing opposite results.

    Yes, it is better not to smoke anything. Eating marijuana is healthier. Pills, not so much.

  72. Gene Berkman

    Yes, marijuana does have health issues. It does affect the memory, for one thing. And…oh I forget!

    I suppose I could research it, but I just don’t feel motivated.

  73. Richard Winger

    Thanks to IndependentPoliticalReport for setting up this venue for our comments. I really appreciate Larry King’s participation, as has already been said above, because this will be the best-watched minor party presidential general election debate in history. I am afraid very few people watched Ron Paul debate Lenora Fulani in 1988; and very few watched Ralph Nader debate Chuck Baldwin in 2008; and very few watched Michael Badnarik, Michael Peroutka, and David Cobb in 2004.

    As to marijuana, there are many ways to use it without putting smoke in lungs.

  74. Stuart Simms

    Kyle, thanks, page just goes blank and no message/email as of yet. I’ll try again in the morning.

  75. Jill Pyeatt

    Mike S. @ 93: I thought the Johnson sign behind King and Tobin was hilarious. It reminded me of Ron Paul supporters.

  76. RedPhillips

    “for the simple reason that marijuana smokers generally don’t go through e.g. 40 joints a day.”

    Obviously, but it is magical thinking to think it has no health consequences.

  77. Jill Pyeatt

    I liked Rocky Anderson much more than I thought I would, and Virgil Goode less than I thought I would. However, I thought Jill Stein did well, although she repeated herself a few times. I’d like to hear her and Gary in next week’s debate.

  78. From Der Sidelines

    Voted, but their ranked choice requires all choices to be ranked, not just the ones you want to rank.

  79. From Der Sidelines

    @124,

    Of course it has health consequences:

    it cures cancer, helps AIDS, glaucoma and Alzheimer’s patients, and reduces stress and anxiety…

  80. Stewart Flood

    Much better technical presentation than I expected to see. Other than flubbing the start by missing opening statements, it went well.

    I expect we’ll see an even better debate next week.

  81. Trent Hill Post author

    Pot calling the kettle black, I know, but they really should’ve made sure their site could handle the traffic.

    #NowThatsADebate and #ThirdPartyDebate are trending nationwide on Twitter right now. That’s big.

    In other news: IPR cleared 3,000 hits today.

  82. Tom Blanton

    Out of the three honky men in suits, Virgil Goode has the funniest voice. I always enjoy hearing him speak – especially if I’m really stoned. He’s the fucking Ernest T. Bass of conservative politics here in Virginia and now the whole world gets some chuckles.

    The old chick – didn’t she used to appear on Maude as one of Maude’s really cool liberal friends?

    I’m betting that Rocky “What Jill Said” Anderson will be left behind but will become a lobbyist working for some creepy law firm. Goode will also be left behind because his supporters don’t know how to find C-SPAN.

    That leaves Johnson and the old chick.

    It might be fun to watch them argue about the best way to take my money and the best way to spend it – but not so much fun as listening to Virgil talking shit.

  83. paulie

    Obviously, but it is magical thinking to think it has no health consequences.

    It does. Overwhelmingly positive, in fact (and I don’t use it).

  84. Thomas L. Knapp

    Red @124,

    Well, I’m not one of those who would argue that marijuana use has no health consequences. I’m just saying that in terms of damage or carcinogenity to the lungs, it’s probably less than tobacco simply by virtue of the fact that its users generally use less of it.

  85. Andy

    Richard Winger said: “I am afraid very few people watched Ron Paul debate Lenora Fulani in 1988; and very few watched Ralph Nader debate Chuck Baldwin in 2008; and very few watched Michael Badnarik, Michael Peroutka, and David Cobb in 2004.”

    I’ve got the following debates from the 2000 election on VHS tapes:

    Independence Party of Minnesota (hosted by Jesse Ventura) sponsored debate that included Harry Browne, Howard Phillips, and John Hegelin.

    Judicial Watch (hosted by Larry Klayman) sponsored debate that included Harry Browne, Howard Phillips, and John Hegelin.

    Maybe one day I’ll be able to post these to YouTube.

  86. Kyle Kneale

    @134 just speaking from experience. The “Thank You for Submitting” should be right below the banner. Try getting to the site again and see if you can vote. If you’re on the same computer it shouldn’t let you vote again (as is the case with me).

  87. R. D. Holland

    With the exception of Virgil Goode, this was the first time I had had the opportunity to hear the other three candidates speak.

    1. Rocky Anderson was — I feel — the most surprising. I do not know what I expected from the Justice Party candidate, but he came across very smooth and passionate. Good debate performance.

    2. Jill Stein. I was taken off guard to hear Mr. Anderson talking about environmental issues even more than the Green Party candidate. Perhaps the two should switch parties? Stein also seemed a little — I don’t know — hyper-ventilated? I found her stage presence a bit distracting, but individuals who have never heard Goode speak might say the same thing about him. We need to hear what people say, I know, rather than how they say it… So I’ll cut Stein some slack….

    3. Gary Johnson probably won this debate based upon delivery and enthusiasm, and I could probably add not “probably” but “definitely.” His closing statement was also strong. Saying that, I totally disagree with some of his positions, but I thought he did a good job nonetheless.

    4. Virgil Goode probably felt like the “odd man out” on many of the topics discussed, and was the only one I heard actually “booed.” But I give him the nod for “courage,” and I agreed with his position on most of the issues more than the other three….

    While I’d love to see Johnson and Goode debate in Washington next week, I’m not sure that will happen. But one thing I am sure of, and that’s in a one-on-one debate, Johnson will easily handle either Stein or Anderson. A “Johnson-Goode” debate would be much more interesting, but actually, I ‘d like to hear “all four again” in “round-two….” If only Romney and Obama would show up too…. Proud of all of these Independents, who show us what American politics could and should be, if the playing field were level.

  88. RedPhillips

    I only got a blank screen also when I voted.

    paulie, what are the ill effects of the THC pill which is legally available by prescription (Marinol)? It has some mind altering effects but not as much as smoking it.

    That the pill would be bad but smoking it good is truly magical thinking. I’m afraid this is propaganda from people who want marijuana available medically in smokable form because smoking (quick delivery method to the brain) it is highly reinforcing but taking it as a pill is much less so.

  89. Oranje Mike

    My runoff ballot was cast as follows:

    1. Gary Johnson
    2. Virgil Goode
    3. Rocky Anderson
    4. Jill Stein

    If this were a real election and these were the candidates, Gary Johnson would have been my loan choice. Goode, Anderson and Stein were ranked only because I had no other choice.

  90. Jill Pyeatt

    Mine was:

    1. Johnson
    2. Stein
    3. Anderson
    4. Goode (sorry, Red, but he didn’t impress me at all.)

  91. Kyle Kneale

    As stated before, I think Rocky earned the spot over Jill. Jill is likely to do better, but I think Rocky’s delivery is 10X that of Jill.

  92. paulie

    Red

    I’ll get with you on that when I’m not under the effects of my drug of choice (beer….Straight to Ale Milk Chocolate Stout mmmmm)

  93. Stewart Flood

    Trent@131,

    Free and Equal’s website was slashdotted about 30 minutes into the debate. It takes a very skilled server administrator and a lot of iron to survive that level of publicity.

  94. Gary Johnson Needs You !

    @120 – lol- you have a sense of humor.

    What happened to Goode’s CP Ballot Access status ? The CP in decline or what?

    Yes Stein and Rocky could be on the same ticket. Simple ME TOO !!! would have saved enough time for another question or two ! Someone needs to give her a turtleneck. Would cut ten years off her appearance. A FREE shirt of course as nothing should COST anyone anything, don’t you know !!!?????!!!

    GJ didn’t mention his website or the LP. Will be tight, but still hoping the Clark/Koch numbers are topped once and for all…….

    I think GJ should have appeared on all three Democracy Now’s “Expanding the Debate” which Stein and Rocky appeared on all three times and Goode once. Take advantage of all national media even if it is only alternative media. He would have reached millions who had never heard of him. GJ should also Debate Roseann and Stewart Alexander if only on CA and CO public TV. Go after the low hanging fruit.

    There should be a minimum of a half dozen of these “debates” starting in August with EMPTY podiums on stage for the R and D who DECLINED to participate !

  95. Jill Pyeatt

    I’d be happy to hear Johnson vs. Anderson. I just happen to think that Gary’s laid-back personality and Jill’s earnestness might be entertaining.

  96. Trent Hill Post author

    I voted based not on my own voting preferences, but on what the average viewer will see as the most “respectable” choice. That means two term governor beats longtime congressman, who beats mayor of Salt Lake City, who beats doctor from Harvard.

    What a great field, though. A harvard educated doctor is the LEAST qualified.

  97. RedPhillips

    Here is the debate commentary I posted at my blog. Please pardon the length.

    First of all, I can’t win regarding Goode no matter what I do. When I criticize Goode I get criticized for being too critical and not being fully on board. When I say positive things about him or promotes his candidacy, others blast me for supporting someone who supported the Iraq War, etc., etc., etc. For the record, I intend to write in Goode. He is not on the ballot in my state, but he is a certified write-in candidate. I recognize that he is less than perfect, but in casting my vote for the Constitution Party candidate, I am endorsing the idea of the Constitution Party, a Constitutionalist party that is to the right of the GOP, as much as I am the candidate.

    Also, Goode almost deserves a vote just based on his awesome Southern accent alone. You know that Goode’s accent in the White House would horrify all the right people. Imagining it makes me giddy.

    Now for the debate, regarding who the candidates should pitch to, I thought all four candidates basically pitched to a general audience and against both Romney and Obama. They weren’t pitching against each other although Virgil Goode emphasized a couple of distinctions, and none seemed to be pitching specifically against the major party candidate most closely aligned to them.

    This was a mistake, IMO. Goode should have pitched to conservatives and against Romney as I suggested below. Jill Stein should have pitched to liberals and against Obama. Etc. Do the candidates really think there is some general mass of undecideds who are open to third parties who could be persuaded to vote for Stein or Goode? I don’t think that’s the playing field. I think Stein’s audience is liberals who think Obama has betrayed them. I think Goode’s audience is conservatives who think Romney is insufficiently so. That is who they should pitch to. (I recognize that this dynamic is somewhat different for the Libertarian.)

    That said, I was very impressed with Rocky Anderson. I have no idea what separates the Justice Party from the Green Party and Stein and Anderson didn’t seem to differ on anything, but Anderson was much more smooth and polished. Perhaps in 2016 Anderson could attempt a fusion campaign and run for both nominations. Johnson did fine, although on one of his drug answers he ran long and didn’t make his point. He needs to work a bit on sound bites. Also, it is absurd to suggest, as Johnson did, that gay rights are Constitutionally guaranteed. So the Founders were intending to protect gay marriage? The notion is laughable on its face. This marks Johnson as an unserious Constitutionalist. He is imposing his beliefs onto the Constitution. He is not taking the Constitution as a serious historical document. And moving on, Stein seemed flustered and amateurish.

    Goode was a very mixed bag. He was right to pound home the immigration issue. And he is definitely playing the populist (getting rid of PACs, term limits, etc.) rather than the strict Constitutionalist. I’m OK with him playing the populist because that is an issue cluster that isn’t represented well by either major party and there are votes to be had there, but to do so while maintaining a Constitutionalist pretense takes nuance. I think he bungled the Constitutional Amendment question. Term limits? Really? If you could guaranteed pass one amendment it would be term limits? How about overturning the 16th? Or how about a pro-life amendment? And I think his drug answer was very problematic. I know it’s trendy to be for drug legalization, and it is popular among the third party crowd, but there are a lot of conservatives out there for whom it is still a radical idea and a non-starter. Therefore, Goode is wise to not just casually endorse drug legalization, but he should frame it as a state issue, which it is. He needs to acknowledge, however, that federal drug laws are unconstitutional on enumerated powers grounds. This way you don’t frighten little old ladies who imagine meth addicts buying their meth at the local Seven Eleven, but also keep your Constitutionalist core happy. This is essentially how Ron Paul played the issue, even though philosophically he opposes all drug laws on libertarian grounds, and it was only a marginal problem for him in the GOP primary. Goode’s answer was all over the map. He treated it mostly as an spending issue (ending the “war on drugs” wouldn’t really save that much), gave a nod to it being a state issue, then reaffirmed his support of drug laws (presumably federal).

    After watching the debate, I think I may have been over thinking Goode in my post below. I’m not sure he is making some calculated effort to split the difference. I think Goode just really doesn’t understands his new audience, which makes sense since this hasn’t been his milieu until recently. His audience has been mainstream conservatives and Republicans, and I think he thinks he is still speaking to that same audience. Did Goode prep for the debate or did he shoot from the hip? Is he open to instruction? Some Constitution Party long termer needs to coach Goode up on CP and “far” right dynamics to help him avoid land mines like the drug issue.

  98. Austin Battenberg

    The order of debate performances:
    1. Virgil Goode. For me, I LOVE simple answers. It sounds like your solid on an issue when you don’t have to explain yourself for a minute, and the accent gives him a unique sound that while somewhat annoying made him sound unique. He was confident.
    2. Gary Johnson: Passionate. Wow I wish he was this good during the two Republican Presidential debates. Even his speeches aren’t as passionate as this debate. When he is campaigning this is what I like to see.
    3. Rocky Anderson: Articulate and knowledgable. Despite disagreeing with him, He sounded very smart, and very Presidential. He gave answers that sounded good and solid, and didn’t sound like a sound-bite guy. It’s the sort of answers I would expect from people of principles.
    4. Jill Stein: She was okay, but honestly I thought she sounded a little weak compared to Anderson. She gets points for being the only woman on stage, but she wasn’t as good as the others.

    For me, I would prefer them Presidentially as:
    Johnson
    Goode
    Anderson
    Stein

    And the next debate I would prefer hearing between Johnson and Anderson.

  99. Thomas L. Knapp

    Red @ 141,

    “what are the ill effects of the THC pill which is legally available by prescription (Marinol)?”

    I can think of two — one just a down side, the other both a possible ill effect and a defect:

    1) One of the problems for which marijuana is medically used is nausea. The pill can’t relieve your nausea if you can’t keep the pill down because you have nausea.

    2) Marinol contains only THC and none of the other 200+ cannabinoids that are present in the marijuana plant.

    With respect to that second one, the other cannabinoids have effects of their own (some more, some less, explored) that are missing from Marinol; and some people actually just don’t like to get high, which is an effect of straight THC but not necessarily a big effect of lower-THC strains of marijuana.

    I attended a lecture/Q&A a few years ago featuring one of the early guys who got into the federal government’s medical marijuana testing program. He hated it, because the US government’s custom-bred marijuana is bred for one, and only one, characteristic: High THC content. He couldn’t smoke it without getting extremely high, which he found unpleasant. He noted that when visiting Amsterdam, he had tried several strains which didn’t get him high but which did relieve his chronic pain better than high-THC marijuana.

    “It has some mind altering effects but not as much as smoking it.”

    That depends on what “it” you are smoking. There are numerous strains of cannabis, some of which are very low in THC content and which will not be as mind-altering as Marinol.

    As you note, another benefit of smoking versus Marinol is quick absorption/bioavailability. Smoking is not the only way to get that, though — Steve Kubby’s lozenges get the cannabinoids into the bloodstream sublingually, for example.

    Personally, I do not like smoking marijuana, but would consider lozenges or edibles if I thought they would address a medical condition or improve my health. But I hope we can agree that whatever health damage smoking it might do, it’s probably less damaging than being dragged off in handcuffs and thrown in a cell over it.

  100. Austin Battenberg

    Since people are talking about marijuana, I just wanted to say that I bet money that when marijuana becomes legal, it will be sold in edible products over the counter much like we buy caffeinated drinks or sugary candy bars. People will smoke much like people drink moon shine. It will still occur, but I think at a much lower rate as edibles, which will be much easier to sell at a mass market, and thus negating all negative health effects.

  101. Gene Berkman

    I only watched the last couple questions and the closing statements, but I then submitted my vote to help determine the two (?) candidates who will be in the next debate.

    I haven’t read most of this thread, so this may have been addressed. But isn’t it odd that freeandequal would have an election to narrow things down to the top two?

    Also I saw once again my problem with IRV. It asked for ranking all the candidates, and I really only had a first choice. I did not really want to include the pro-government candidates in my preferences.

  102. Gene Berkman

    Also, I was disappointed with all their suggestions for a Constitutional Amendment. Actually, horrified with Jill Stein’s desire to stifle free speech.

    But I don’t think term limits are as important as ending the income tax. Gary Johnson and Virgil Goode both represent parties that have endorsed The Liberty Amendment to end the income tax and end unconstitutional government enterprises.

  103. Thomas L. Knapp

    Gene @159,

    “I did not really want to include the pro-government candidates in my preferences.”

    There weren’t any non-pro-government candidates TO include in your preferences.

  104. Marc Allan Feldman

    I am not dissappointed that there were not any non-pro-government candidates for me not to include. Just sayin.

  105. Darryl W. Perry

    Based on performance, I believe Stein won the debate last night, I ranked Johnson 2nd, Anderson a close 3rd & Goode a distant 4th.

    That said, I’ve already cast my ballot for NOTA, which (if the NH SOS follows the law) is a valid vote. Despite the fact that NH does not have write-in declaration, a slate of electors have been filed for a write-in candidacy of NOTA.

  106. paulie

    GJ didn’t mention his website or the LP.

    D’oh.

    Also, not seeing anything from Johnson campaign or LP to vote in the Free and Equal poll for the second round.

    Double doh.

    Just fired off an email.

    I got one from Stein.

    Less than half of the 24 hours left and we should NOT assume Johnson will automatically advance to the second debate, it is based on who turns out their supporters to vote in Free and Equal’s poll.

  107. Eric Sundwall

    After decrying the top-two system as the dubious first question of the third party presidential debate, Free & Equal than creates a top-two system for their next debate? Don’t vote at all on this one folks . . . Just say’n.

  108. paulie

    “I think GJ should have appeared on all three Democracy Now’s “Expanding the Debate” which Stein and Rocky appeared on all three times and Goode once. Take advantage of all national media even if it is only alternative media. He would have reached millions who had never heard of him. GJ should also Debate Roseann and Stewart Alexander if only on CA and CO public TV. Go after the low hanging fruit.

    There should be a minimum of a half dozen of these “debates” starting in August with EMPTY podiums on stage for the R and D who DECLINED to participate !”

    I agree.

    However, Johnson did very well, especially since he has a cold.

  109. paulie

    After decrying the top-two system as the dubious first question of the third party presidential debate, Free & Equal than creates a top-two system for their next debate?

    Ironic, yes, but I voted in it anyway

  110. Green_Liberal

    I will be voting for Stein as she’s on the ballot in my state. But I thought Anderson won the debate and demonstrated he’s the most articulate advocate for the anti-corporatist left.

    That said, Stein and Johnson definitely had their moments. Goode came off as a patriot as well.

    I doubt Stein really believes there are no health issues associated with marijuana…. What Stein should have said is there are considerably less health issues associated with marijuana as there are with tobacco and alcohol.

    Stein did have a strong moment late in the debate when she talked about the need for grassroots democracy to take back political power from multi-national corporations.

  111. Gary Johnson Needs You !

    Yes Rocky is a “smooth” politician. He won a mayor’s race in a major US City. However his problem is a MAJOR one, NO ballot Access to speak of, let’s be honest friends Stein needs to make it to the next debate hopefully to help her to pull millions of votes from Obama. The BEST thing we can hope for is to keep the winner of the POTUS race BELOW 50% where at least they CAN’T claim some kind of MANDATE ! We LOSE because it’s Obama or Rmoney but let’s hope they come in under 50%. Jill Stein and Gary Johnson has the Ballot Access to cut into both Obama and Romney.

    Picked up a little odd info off a show about the Morman Candidate on alternative media. Both Rmoney and wife (and ALL Mormans) wear underwear with masonic type symbols over their breast and navel ! WEIRD cult type stuff friends !?! Romoney’s greatgrandpappy had FIVE wives and over two dozen children…..

    Come to think of it. I might try those symbols, it sure worked for grandpaw – lol

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