Press release from the Libertarian Party:
WASHINGTON – Giving little thought to the lessons of history, President Obama has begun attacking Libya with the full support of virtually every member of Congress, both Democrats and Republicans. Libertarian Party Chair Mark Hinkle issued the following statement today:
"President Obama’s decision to order military attacks on Libya is only surprising to those who actually think he deserved the Nobel Peace Prize. He has now ordered bombing strikes in six different countries, adding Libya to Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia, and Yemen.
"While the justifications vary in each case, the disturbing common thread is that these are all predominantly Muslim countries. And the goodwill expressed by Arab people about Obama in opinion polls early in his administration has completely vanished: in the most recent Zogby survey, 85% expressed an unfavorable opinion toward the United States, eclipsing the 83% negative opinion in the final year of the Bush administration.
"Libyan President Muammar Gadaffi is no friend of liberty, but the military involvement of the United States in the rebellion against him threatens to undermine the credibility of the resistance to his rule and turn him into a hero. As news of both actual and rumored killings of innocent civilians by American bombs spreads throughout the Arab world, the hatred which spawned the 9/11 murderers will continue to grow. Finally, what if Gadaffi still manages to defeat the rebels? Faced with the choice of losing face or upping the ante with an escalation of military involvement, this could turn into yet another disastrous campaign. And as Steve Chapman put it in an article in Reason magazine, ‘Most of the people endorsing an attack know less about Libya than they do about playing the oboe.’ When will we ever learn?
"Libertarians advocate the foreign policy eloquently described by Thomas Jefferson at his inauguration: ‘Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none.’ Just as the Founding Fathers expressed admiration for the ‘Swiss Model’ of armed neutrality that has managed to keep Switzerland out of the vicious wars of Europe for hundreds of years, we should embrace the idea that the purpose of an American military is the defense of American soil, period. As Senator Barack Obama said in criticizing the Bush administration, ‘The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation.’
"The Constitution of the United States requires an explicit Declaration of War in order for this country to engage in hostilities with foreign nations. Obama, after dithering for two weeks, has joined the list of presidents who chose to launch wars on their personal say-so in direct contravention of the Constitution.
"I don’t know how many times we have to endure administrations, both Republican and Democratic, who shoot first and ask questions later. Probably for as long as we continue to elect Republicans and Democrats to office."
The Libertarian Party platform includes the following:
3.1 National Defense
We support the maintenance of a sufficient military to defend the United States against aggression. The United States should both avoid entangling alliances and abandon its attempts to act as policeman for the world. We oppose any form of compulsory national service.
For more information, or to arrange an interview, call LP Executive Director Wes Benedict at 202-333-0008 ext. 222.
The LP is America’s third-largest political party, founded in 1971. The Libertarian Party stands for free markets, civil liberties, and peace. You can find more information on the Libertarian Party at our website.
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You might be a talking chair but your dead wrong. They hate America because America represents the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God. Foreigners hate Jesus and that’s why they turn to cults like Mormonism, Islam, or Christian Science.
God obviously hates these people or he wouldn’t make their brains so retard as to believe there can be another God besides the one actually called God.
You “progressive” Libertarian communists say that it’s ok to worship Allah or Aqua Buddha but those are false Gods to demand that their people blow up our buildings! Can’t you people see that it’s the false religions that cause all the hate of God’s chosen people???
For an even more contrary opinion, not the following from english.aljazeera.com (the dominant middle eastern TV network, not under government control) posted March 23:
6:00pm
“James Bays, Al Jazeera’s correspondent in Benghazi, said there is a “thank you” rally taking place there.
People have gathered to thank Britain, France, the UN, and Qatar – the reason for it is to thank international nations that have taken part in this air campaign.
If you asked those people they’d say they’d like more air strikes until the members of their family, who are opposition fighters, make their way to Tripoli.
Every family has someone who has gone towards the front line.”
For a contrary opinion, note the following from bbc.co.uk
“#
0103: Lindsey Hilsum, Channel 4 News’s international editor, tweets: “Around the burnt out tanks destroyed by allied bombs near #benghazi, everyone rushes up to say ‘thank you’ to western journalists. New chant heard around #Benghazi #libya: 1,2,3 – Sarkozy merci!”
tb67: In order to know these things before the humanitarian intervention, wouldn’t you have to be able to predict the future?
me: Fair question. No. Any act by any entity is based on the assembling data, assessing it, and then making a decision about what course of action is appropriate. Sometimes that works out, sometimes it doesn’t. Hasn’t that been your personal experience?
Capozzi, you have noted that you could support a humanitarian intervention in order to save lives. Wouldn’t your support for such an intervention require you to know how many lives would be saved as well as how many lives would be lost in the collateral damage column in order to achieve a net good?
In order to know these things before the humanitarian intervention, wouldn’t you have to be able to predict the future?
Are you able to predict the future, Capozzi and if so, what makes you think others can’t predict the future?
It seems that whenever you take a position that you say will result in a net reduction of aggression, blah blah blah, you would have to be able to predict the future, know the unknowable, and be able to assign metrics to unmeasurable and intangible items, such as freedom, etc.
It is worth noting that the Arab League, which favored the no-fly zone, has condemned the opening attack on Libya due to the targeting of civilian areas and collateral damage. I think it may be safe to assume that initial responses show that Hinkle may be able to predict the future regarding the growth of hatred for America among Muslims.
I’m glad we agree.
All we are saying is give peace a chance.
p59: Did the French bomb, invade and occupy the colonies?
me: No bombs then. Invade…arguable. Occupy…arguable.
p: As for the Balkans: one person not resenting American involvement does not mean that there aren’t people who resented it, or even that they were not a majority.
me: True. One person resenting…ditto. Resentment is of course subjective. Vast majorities might, for ex., prefer the Balkan situation today vs. pre-intervention and still “resent” NATO intervention.
p: The Arab/Muslim world already has a propensity to view this as part of a continuum that includes the crusades and colonialism. Playing into that narrative is not wise.
me: Agreed. One of the many reasons I do not support BHO’s Libyan intervention.
I could probably throw something together, but I feel preternaturally drawn to mention my chinchilla and all of the various conspiracies it’s gray coat is undoubtedly a part of. Granted, it’s no chupacabra, but it’s far more innocuous-looking. Plus, grays.
WINNING.
I don’t think there’s anything superhuman about it. Opinion surveys done over time and common sense seem to be more than enough.
See opinion surveys cited above…and note that Obama was given somewhat of a clean slate coming in.
p, yes, he said “…the hatred which spawned the 9/11 murderers will continue to grow.” Even suggesting the “hatred will continue to grow” — dropping any reference to 9/11 — is crystal ball material that Hinkle does not have. He cannot know that unless he’s super-human. “Could continue to grow” would have been far more wise and credible phrasing, IMO.
I am open to the possibility that he is in fact super human! 😉
Did the French bomb, invade and occupy the colonies?
As for the Balkans: one person not resenting American involvement does not mean that there aren’t people who resented it, or even that they were not a majority.
The Arab/Muslim world already has a propensity to view this as part of a continuum that includes the crusades and colonialism. Playing into that narrative is not wise.
table, glad you have such certainty. The Balkan I met recently seems to disprove your assertion, as does the American Revolution.
If Gadhafi is toppled, it seems likely his supporters will foster resentments, and some of them certainly do now. Others conceivably could appreciate the support.
If you think your China hypothetical proves your point, then all I can say is I don’t agree…
The hatred will continue to grow. Hinkle does not predict with certainty that there will be more attacks.
@48: I could probably throw something together, but I feel preternaturally drawn to mention my chinchilla and all of the various conspiracies it’s gray coat is undoubtedly a part of. Granted, it’s no chupacabra, but it’s far more innocuous-looking. Plus, grays.
#36 I see your point that a press release should not become a footnoted white paper. On the other hand, you throw a bomb in like Sen. Obama’s quote, you could say “As Senator Obama said during an interview with the Boston Globe in Dec. 2007……….”
We are a third party, people think we are kooks, they wouldn’t put it past us to make things up or embellish. I don’t want b.s. hyperbole in our fundraising letters, our press releases, our candidates’ speeches, or our literature.
@50 It WILL build more resentment. It MAY lead to more terrorist attacks.
Looking forward to it. I’ve been waiting for years, so I guess I can’t be too impatient 🙂
P_
Just try to keep him on track and keep him from throwing in stuff about Area 51, alien shape shifting reptiles, Chupacabras, chemtrails and Halliburton blowing up the BP rig in the Gulf of Mexico
me_ well we know thatll never happen so…rofl
p, I don’t doubt that many Muslims on Al Jazeera express additional resentment toward the US for BHO’s actions. I do, too!
Whether that triggers another 9/11; whether that hatred (if it COULD be measured) will remain in the weeks ahead; etc. etc. seems off-the-hook grandiose.
Why not just leave it at…it’s a bad idea, and it COULD lead to MORE resentment. Why the overstated histrionics? Does someone REALLY think that taking a histrionic stance will lead BHO to reverse himself? Is Hinkle placing a marker on the table so that IF there’s identifiable blowback, he can say, I told you so?
I don’t think that’s a good way to build credibility. Consistently speaking the truth seems the better path, not playing Chicken Little.
Good stuff for sure.
@42 Duensing might do that.
Just try to keep him on track and keep him from throwing in stuff about Area 51, alien shape shifting reptiles, Chupacabras, chemtrails and Halliburton blowing up the BP rig in the Gulf of Mexico 😛
RC: You could try watching Al-Jazeera English to get an idea of what most Arabs and Muslims think about it.
DC: Put another way, the number of people that (IMO) would care one way or another what the NVCLP Executive Committee thinks of the bombing in Libya could probably be counted on one hand.
I don’t think that’s true. My theory is that there will be non-LP members in your area, and LP locals all over the nation, who will be interested if you become the first (as far as I know) LP affiliate to call for war crimes trials for US war criminals.
If I was a news reporter, I might find that newsworthy if it was brought to my attention with an email and followed up with a phone call.
If I was sitting on the couch at home, sick and tired of both major parties and saw that on the news, it might get my ass off the couch.
LG: Organizationally, I personally prefer to stick to local and regional issues since I think that’s where we add the most value to the LP. Put another way, the number of people that (IMO) would care one way or another what the NVCLP Executive Committee thinks of the bombing in Libya could probably be counted on one hand.
Maybe two hands if we’re really lucky.
That said, if we are going to stick to local and regional issues up here, we really, really, REALLY should actually post something about local and regional issues more than, oh, once a month or thereabouts. Past that… well, I have to be honest, I can’t think of anything original, insightful, or pithy to add to Hinkle’s piece on Libya, so if I can get out of having to do that, I’d be grateful.
table41: Is there any way to know for certain?
me: No. That’s the thing with hypotheticals and speculation…we just can’t know what the future holds. If China did those unwise things, it DOES seem highly likely that Americans would more than just RESENT the acts, they would view it as an act of war, and there likely would be an in-kind response, and more so.
OTOH, I met a Balkan recently, and despite the fact that innocent bystanders were killed by US actions, he is grateful that the US intervened. There was no resentment.
To my knowledge, no American harbors resentments toward the French for intervening in the American Revolution.
I don’t support this intervention, to be clear. I stand by my view that we cannot KNOW what most Libyans or Muslims will say about it. My guess is there WILL be some who resent it. It’s conceivable, even, that it could inspire another 9/11. To say that it WILL spawn that level of hatred is overstated UNLESS someone has the ability to read minds and see the future. I’d like to meet such a person…I have MANY questions! 😉
I’ve checked with Mark Hinkle. He says the inclusion of chair in several of the headlines has not been due to any pressure, so I was wrong.
@34
Target Switzerland is about Switzerland, not the founding of the US, and the reference to John Adams I located is in a brief introductory section. Don’t buy it if that is your goal.
You bring up a good point, although I’m not sure I would view the formation of a national government and defense policy as unrelated issues. In the 18th century, that was most of what governments did.
Still, Halbrook always implied that he was referring to armed neutrality when he discussed early American admiration for the Swiss (although it is undoubtedly true that these Americans admired their overall approach to government, including the canton system). When I have some time, I’m going to see if I can dig up pithy quotes on the topic: I’d love to use them in my own writings and speeches.
“if any county in NV would , it would be Duensings and Colbornes”
Try running it past them…
If the Chinese sent in troops, bombs and depleted uranium (among other things) to several US states, killing millions of people in the process, leaving millions more without homes and limbs, locking up many without due process of law and using torture, spreading deadly chemicals and radiation levels, killing people with unmanned drones and cluster bombs, and all the other wonderful things that Americans have been doing in Iraq and AfPak…. you may imagine that there may be some anti-Chinese sentiment among Americans after a decade or two of this. For added effect, the Chinese should also be occupying Israel and Vatican City at the same time.
Now, suppose that after all this the Chinese were unveiling their invasion of several more US States. Would that lead to even more resentment among Americans? Would them failing to do do so cause greater resentment? Is there any way to know for certain?
lg, OK, yes we can know, IYO. Please elaborate. How can we KNOW what the future holds? Or are you suggesting a likely result, in your estimation?
if any county in NV would , it would be Duensings and Colbornes
” This: “…the hatred which spawned the 9/11 murderers will continue to grow.” is overstated. We can’t know if it WILL continue to grow. ”
As the Obamabots chanted in 2008: Yes. We. Can.
LG
How about Nye County?
around, footnotes are generally not done in press releases, that I’ve seen and done over the years. Citing studies and books can be. White papers and studies can be.
Releases generally have to be written on a standalone basis, avoiding unsubstantiatable claims. Opinions and facts need to be discernible.
Thanks, Less. In general, facts and quotes mentioned in LP news releases are going to be far more credible if footnoted. I think that W.A.R. could certainly benefit in this regard.
la, thanks. Was the signer of the Alien and Sedition Acts an admirer of Swiss f.p. or the system of confederated cantons? Franklin and Henry?
The Swiss Model has much to recommend it, but we should be clear on whether we’re talking cantons or f.p. Conflating the 2 notions could lead to charges of misdirection.
If the Halbrook book clarifies this, perhaps I’ll get it…
@26
I love google: Here is the Q&A with Senator Obama that contained the quote http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2008/specials/CandidateQA/ObamaQA/
@ Robert 31
Historian Stephen Halbrook, who wrote TARGET SWITZERLAND: SWISS ARMED NEUTRALITY IN WORLD WAR II back in the 1990s, documented several direct references to the Swiss model of government and defense in the writings of the American founders, including correspondence from the Continental Congress, Patrick Henry, and John Adams. I just took a look at my copy of Target Switzerland, and Halbrook mentioned that John Adams devoted an entire chapter of his 1787 “Defence of the Constitutions of the United States of America” to a discussion of the Swiss system. I also recall a quote involving Benjamin Franklin somewhere about direct correspondence with a Swiss official and one of them saying that the two countries were “sisters” in their systems. I’m sure googling Halbrook’s name, Swiss, and American founders together will turn up some good material: Halbrook’s book was a very big deal in libertarian circles when it came out in 1998.
Halbrook is also a second amendment scholar, and the “well-regulated militia” part of that amendment which has been such a topic of debate may have been a reference to the Swiss model of a militia made up of the entire population.
I generally agree with this release. I do think that not mentioning the Arab League undercuts Hinkle’s otherwise credible statement. This: “…the hatred which spawned the 9/11 murderers will continue to grow.” is overstated. We can’t know if it WILL continue to grow. It may not. It’s conceivable that refusing to participate could have led to more growth in anti-American (impossible to measure) sentiments in the Arab world. It’s also possible that intervention will be viewed as positively by some in the Arab world. None of these is a sure thing.
This: “Just as the Founding Fathers expressed admiration for the ‘Swiss Model’ of armed neutrality that has managed to keep Switzerland out of the vicious wars of Europe for hundreds of years…” sounds as if the Founders explicitly endorsed the Swiss Model. Did they? Some founders did prefer armed neutrality, but whether that was technically inspired by the Swiss…I dunno. I’ve not seen an explicit reference by a Founder to the Swiss…anyone know of some explicit examples?
“I think now would be an apt time for the Nobel Peace Prize committee to issue the following succinct press release: ‘OOPS’ ”
Brandon Robison
Good gawd paulie I was just playin’ around. I didn’t want to gets serious.
Okay. It’ll take awhile but I’ll see if we can do something like that.
Radical! 🙂
oh and Im really loving me some Mark Hinkle and his articles:)
Ill ask Nevada’s excom , just for shits and giggles:)
Anyone have a cite – time, place – for those remarks by Sen. Obama? It would make any letter to the editor even more powerful.
Good idea. Can we get the Washington State LP, your county LP, or any other LP local or state party anywhere on the record about that as a group?
Time to arrest Bush 1 & 2 along with Clinton and Obama.
Murder is not acceptable.
here are three videos that might help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv5BYEOQYLo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX7V6FAoTLc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFowNFvmUxw
Does anyone have any actual information about whether there’s anything behind why some headlines identify the opinion as that of the chair, other than mere speculation?
“They pretty much all cite Hinkle, and they frequently cite the platform. However, Ive only seen two say ‘chair..’ in the headline, and that has only started very recently.”
Perhaps it’s a delayed reaction to Root’s campaign last year to conflate his LNCC chairmanship with the chairmanship of the party?
Interesting that it comes on the 8th anniversary of the Iraq invasion. Coincidence?
This is a great article! Those of us who are horrified by this latest assault from Obama need to speak out loudly, and as often as possible.
Anyway, didn’t mean to get too sidetracked on the whole “chair” thing…very good release, if I haven’t said so already…right on the money.
BTW Less, not sure if you saw, your column got quite a few comments here
https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2011/03/less-antman-there-is-no-libertarian-case-for-restricted-immigration/
Several of these seem to be subjects that more Republican-leaning LNC members may take issue with the chair on. Again, this is speculation, I may be grasping at straws here.
@Paulie 14
Scanning lp.org backwards, I see at least 3 headlines that referred to the LP Chair prior to the Wall of Shame kerfuffle.
Libertarian chair “sort of” commends Obama’s Cuba decision
Government officials afraid of a full-body scan of their words should resign, says LP Chair
Libertarian Chair: Time to Re-Legalize Immigration
Just to be clear, I’m drawing a distinction between quoting the chair in the release and putting that in the headline. I grant that I may be imagining things, and have only a suspicion, not any actual information.
They pretty much all cite Hinkle, and they frequently cite the platform. However, Ive only seen two say “chair..” in the headline, and that has only started very recently. It conveys the impression that the chair is not speaking for the party as a whole, which to me seems wrong.
One additional factoid is that it seems to have started only after the flap over the Republican wall of Shame. I understand some LNC members were in more or less open revolt over that ad.
Gene is right: the quoting of the LP Platform at the bottom makes clear it is LP policy. And Hinkle told me all of his press releases must be approved by the LNC Publications Review Committee.
The ones that don’t cite Hinkle by name are probably written by Wes Benedict.
Paulie @ 7, MC @ 10 – I think it is just a stylistic manner, to vary the tone of the press releases, whether they attribute them to the Libertarian Party or the Chair of The Libertarian Party.
You will notes that the release from The Chair did quote from the relevant plank of The Libertarian Party Platform.
While Libertarians are very good at disagreeing with each other, I’ve not felt Hinkle’s releases to be controversial, in general. So, I’d also be interested to know if people are trying to separate the opinion of the ELECTED head of the party from the party itself.
Very good and thank you.
@Paulie 4
From a couple of emails I received from Hinkle recently, I’m under the impression he gets more press requests for interviews when he is specifically identified by name in the press release. Not sure, though.
Exactly. So are some people on the LNC insisting that certain LP press releases be marked as speaking for the chair, rather than the party as a whole?
An excellent statement from The Libertarian Party. Well done Mark Hinkle!
It raises the relevant issues, including the unconstitutional excercize of power by the President, as well as the threat of a quagmire.
Most importantly, a responsible tone is maintained.
That’s a true statement in regards to what we “don’t know” about Libya.
It seems like every time I turn on the News I have to start doing research into a new country I knew little about last year, but here is an interesting statistic.
The Jerusalem Post posted an article saying that Gadhafi was going to arm 1 million people. Libya has a population of 6 million people.
You have to wonder about what the support level is for someone when he arms 17% of his population with weapons.
If I thought I was “hated” by my people I wouldn’t be handing out 1 million guns.
But if 1 million people are armed how many are unarmed but still supportive? It seems like you would assume it must be at least half the population.
Then you really start wondering what we have gotten ourselves into this time?
Here is a link to the Jerusalem Post article: http://www.jpost.com/VideoArticles/Video/Article.aspx?id=213052
It says “says Libertarian Chair,” not “says LP chair”, but ALL (or almost all) press releases quote the chair…why do a couple of them in the last few days need to mention that in the headline?
Compare this with other press releases in the archives at LP.org.
PAC brings up a good point. It is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL that press releases say the words Libertarian Party in the headline whenever possible. Nobody outside of the party would equate “LP” with the Libertarian Party.
I agree with the Libertarian Chair.
Very good comment.
Seems odd that some LP releases now have to say in the headline “says LP chair” rather than “says Libertarian Party,” while at the same time LP blog posts don’t identify the author in the title.