Roger Gary running for Libertarian Presidential nomination

Via email:

At our last meeting of the Texas State Executive Committee, there was extensive discussion concerning candidates and candidate recruitment. At that time I informed my fellow Libertarians that I was running for our Party’s nomination for the office of President of the United States.

I have been a Life Member of both the Texas and the National Libertarian Party since 1977. I have served as precinct chair, county chair, and regional representative on the State Executive Committee. All of these numerous times beginning in 1980 to the present time. In the mid 1980s I served two terms as the State Chairman. During that time we organized and ran a successful ballot access drive. As a result of that drive the Libertarian Party has been on the Texas Ballot in every election since.

I have also been on the ballot many times. In one race for U.S. Congress I placed second in a three way race. In 1993 I was elected to the Board of Directors of the San Antonio River Authority(a state office). And served for 6 years on that board. I was also appointed by President Reagan to a position on the Local Board of the Selective Service System and served as vice-chairman of that Board for 15 years. I have served in both the National Guard and the State Guard. Most recently as Battalion Executive Officer. I am active in community organizations and held leadership positions in numerous of those. My interests have always been on the local and state level. Since that is where the best opportunities are for recruitment and education. In 2010 I was a candidate for the Texas Railroad Commssion(a statewide office) and placed third in a four way race, receiving a few votes less than 139,000.

As a delegate to most National Conventions since 1980 I have observed first hand the numerous people who have joined the party and because of their self proclaimed “star power” have promised us that if only they were made our Presidential or Vice Presidential Candidate they could bring a large number of new members to our party. They have all fallen short of expectations. Murray Rothbard called them “opportunists” and warned us against falling for their “salesmanship”. I was always hesitant to support them because I wanted to see people put in at least a little time “in the trenches” before asking for one of our highest honors.

That last paragraph is as close as I will come to waging a “negative campaign”. I will stand on my dedication and accomplishments. My primary focus will be on new members and new delegates to the National Convention. And I will recruit them with a solid and consistent Libertarian Message, on ALL issues.

I thank you for your consideration,

Roger Gary

UPDATE 2011-03-14: Visit his website at www.RVGary.com

According to that site, his complete contact information is as follows:

Email :         Roger@RVGary.com
Phone :       (210) 324-6856
Address :  1119 W. Ashby Pl., San Antonio TX  78201

http://rvgary.com/

126 thoughts on “Roger Gary running for Libertarian Presidential nomination

  1. paulie Post author

    Well, he goes into his history in his announcement.

    As for his philosophy, he’s a good friend of Mary Ruwart’s and they tend to agree a lot.

    I’m going to try to have a radio debate between Wrights, Duensing, Gary and Burns soon.

    I invited Root but he was not interested. The others are interested, now we just need to agree on a day they all have free.

  2. Matt Cholko

    Excellent Paulie. I’d love to hear that debate.

    Wayne Root, if you read this, I hope you’ll reconsider and join in the debate as well, assuming that you are going to seek our nomination for president.

  3. Matt Cholko

    Excellent Paulie. I’d love to hear that forum.

    Wayne Root, if you read this, I hope you’ll reconsider and join in the forum as well, assuming that you are going to seek our nomination for president.

  4. paulie Post author

    Wayne said he has not announced any intention to run or formed an exploratory committee, so he does not want to be treated as a candidate for president at this time.

    He did say he is interested in debating Obama, Ron Paul, Sarah Palin, and other well known Democrats and Republicans.

    But let’s try not to make this one about Wayne.

    I’ll let Roger know I posted this, so if you have some questions for him fire away.

  5. NewFederalist

    I remember Roger from many years ago. He was always a stand up kind of guy. If “earning” the presidential nomination is to be equated with a lifetime achievement award, I think Roger is deserving of the honor.

  6. Robert Capozzi

    rg: They have all fallen short of expectations. Murray Rothbard called them “opportunists” and warned us against falling for their “salesmanship”.

    me: I certainly wish Gary all the best. Citing Rothbard — who opportunistically rejoined the GOP in the last years of his life — is probably not a good way to reach out to many in the LP, aside from the narrow (if fervent) band of Rothbardians in the party.

    Personally, I’d think “salespersonship” is a quality we should WANT at the top of the ticket. A good salesperson IS opportunistic!

    All our candidates fall short of their potential. Having an investment in an outcome — having “expectations” — seems quixotic for our little truth squad. Excessive cerebration is an energy drain; maybe our candidates should just do their best, come what may.

  7. Porn Again Christian

    What does Mr. Gary see as the contrast between himself and Lee Wrights, as far as issues, if anything?

  8. Gene Berkman

    Not sure what the significance is of his service on a Selective Service Board. Perhaps he can enlighten us on how his libertarian views affected that service.

  9. TinFoilCap & JockeyShorts to Match

    Bravo! I wish you well Mr. Gary ! As for the difference between he and Mr. Wrights, Porny @ 10 asks? WHO CARES as long as their issues ARE libertarian and they are getting that message to the masses !! Like Jose says @3 the more the better !!! More voices promoting the LP and libertarian solutions.

    @2 great news paulie, Please have it placed on blogtalk if you will. I actually listened to the ’08 Heartland LP Debate over the weekend on blogtalk. Right I know I need to get a life-lol. It included Jingo and Smith (whatever happened to them???), Phillies, Root, Ruwart and Gravel. It was very interesting(again). Anyway if you can please get it on blogtalk someway, THANKS.

    Welcome to Heartland Libertarian Presidential Debates.Six of the Party’s Candidates will debate with Mike Ferguson moderating the debate on 4-5-2008. Teddy Fleck gives you the Libertarian Presidential Debate: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/teddyfleck/2008/04/05/libertarian-presidential-debates

    Yes FORUM is a friendlier word to use and is better for LP candidates to use. Let them DEBATE the Ds and Rs, just have a forum with other LP members.

    Words for Messers Gary, Burns, Duensing, and Wrights and others who will join them–>

    “Every calling is great if greatly pursued” -Oliver Wendell Holmes

    “Carpe diem, quam minimus credula postero. Seize today, and put as little trust as you can in tomorrow.”– Horace – (35 B.C.)

    and for you who just can’t throw that hat —>

    “To see what is right and not to do it is a lack of courage.”– Confucius

    “Them as can do has to do for them as can’t. And someone has to speak up for them as has no voices.”-[ Terry Pritchett ]

  10. paulie Post author

    Please have it placed on blogtalk if you will.

    It will be on internet radio at ybsradio.com unless someone comes up with a better idea. Right now IPR is limited to no more than 30 minutes on blogtalk unless we pay them (not sure how much). I’d like to spend an hour or two if we can.

    Jingo and Smith (whatever happened to them?)

    Mr. Jingozian served a term on the LNC in 2008-2010, and then decided he needs to focus on family, business and other things besides the LP for a while. He said he might be back. Ms. Smith said she was leaving the LP at one time, but then apparently reconsidered, since she was on the ballot as a Libertarian again in 2010. I’d have to look it up whether she ran for Congress, State House or what.

  11. Mike B.

    Paulie @ 13:

    On Christine Smith’s blog she is hosting a live videocast show via us stream.tv ( her first show aired on February 25th).

    I only caught a part of it but she indicated that she is done running for office. In her view the electoral process in itself is coercive and she won’t be a part of that anymore.

    She’s sounding like an anarchist.

  12. TinFoilCap & JockeyShorts to Match

    I tried to pick up Jim Duensing’s show on ybsradio.com last week and couldn’t get it. No archieves to be found for his show on that site either. If you guys tape the forum then run it in 30 minute sections over ? several shows on Blogtalk would be cool with me. We people out here in the backwoods waiting for the STHF don’t have cable hookups, so we have to buffer items to hear them. Been able to buffer blogtalk fine, but couldn’t do anything with ybsradio.com . One idea, does Barrett still have his blogtalk show? Thanks for the info on Jingo and Smith.

  13. Ted Brown

    @11 I agree with Gene Berkman. A Libertarian on the Selective Service Board is a bit counter-intuitive. The best action in such a position would be to destroy all of the records and then destroy the back-up of all the records. And, of course, accept any excuse anyone wanted to offer for not serving.

  14. paulie Post author

    And, of course, accept any excuse anyone wanted to offer for not serving.

    I think that’s the idea. In case the draft is ever reinstituted, we want people in a position to do just that.

  15. Nicholas Sarwark

    Multiple prior races with relatively good results, prior military service, prior appointed positions, and a long history of activism are all good things for a candidate to have.

    Are there any major negatives Mr. Gary has?

  16. Here is a radical idea

    Never heard of him. Is Anybody out there that anybody has ever heard of outside of the LP’s small circle ? Nothing credible from the LP yet.

  17. How about this

    Root should sit this one out. No use in going to a LP so-called national convention and again be heckled, treated rudely, and worse. I think the LP gives him more grieve than the two major parties.

  18. paulie Post author

    Root should sit this one out.

    You may be right. Personally I would like to see him run for state or better yet local office in Nevada first. If possible, something he can get actually elected to.

    I’m glad to see him be willing to serve on the LNC as something other than chair first. 2016 or 2020 may be a better year for him as far as a presidential run.

    But again getting back to Mr. Gary, any more questions for him specifically from anyone?

  19. Root = Barr

    Paulie: “[Root] did say he is interested in debating Obama, Ron Paul, Sarah Palin, and other well known Democrats and Republicans.”

    Sounds like Root is following Barr’s 2008 strategy.

    Barr ignored the LP presidential debates, and focused on spending money and bringing busloads of delegates to the convention.

    Later, Barr refused to debate the other third party candidates, and would only debate McCain and Obama.

    Root did say, after winning the VP nomination in 2008, that Barr was “a master politician” and that Root would closely watch and study Barr, and learn from him.

  20. paulie Post author

    bringing busloads of delegates to the convention.

    Where did these busloads come from? I heard there was a car with five people from Ohio and a van with 10-15 people from Georgia, which included a journalist and some non-Barr delegates (they picked up Tom Knapp along the way, for example). Many of these people have been long time LP members, while others were new. Some are still active in the party.

    Got any other info on busing people in…from where, names, or anything?

    If anyone has concrete information about this whole busing in thing, drop me an email, call me, or post it in the comments here.

    Anyway, I’m going to keep trying to bring this back around to being on topic…Imagine there’s no Wayne, it’s easy if you try :-)

    ….Any questions for Mr. Gary?

  21. Andy

    “Nicholas Sarwark // Mar 14, 2011 at 7:09 pm

    Multiple prior races with relatively good results, prior military service, prior appointed positions, and a long history of activism are all good things for a candidate to have.”

    I personally don’t think that prior military service means anything for an LP candidate. It also shouldn’t matter if they have ever held office or not.

    The most important criteria should be:

    1) Where do they stand on the issues (are they “libertarian enough”)?

    2) Is this a person that has a record of keeping their word?

    3) What is their history of libertarian activism?

    4) How good are they at doing libertarian outreach, and more specifically, libertarian outreach to diverse groups of people (as in people of different ages, races/ethnicities, political persuasions, economic classes, etc…)?

    5) How many people can they reach with the libertarian message?

    A lot of people assumed that having Bob Barr as a candidate was going to lead to a big breakthrough because Barr was a former Republican congressman, but this obviously did not end up happening.

  22. TinFoilCap & JockeyShorts to Match

    @ 20

    “Never heard of him. Is Anybody out there that anybody has ever heard of outside of the LP’s small circle ? Nothing credible from the LP yet”

    me – buddy I know you may be paid to come on here and strow discord, but you don’t impress me in the least. This man just made one of the most important statements of his life and you come on here and insult him and three other men of the LP. You are the type person who deserves to have their kids booed at a public event! If you even have kids, with your attitude no woman (or man I guess you could be female) will have you!

    I had never heard of Barack Obama until 2007, if anyone on here thinks B.O. is “CREDIBLE” to me I’ll have to judge that you are a dumb*%% deluxe !

    The LP ran the man who was one of, if not, the lead attorney to impeach Bill Clinton as it’s ’08 nominee. Some creds huh? Got his mug seen on the telly a few times during the proceeding huh? Fairly known dude huh? Even made an appearance in a Barat movie, a baffoon part, but a part anyway. Mug seen by millions. What did that get the LP? All of .004 of the vote !!!! (that one deserved 4 exclamation points) It’s past time for delusions about the LP to end. A forty year old Clint Eastwood AIN”T ridin’ in to deliver us the White House! Sorry, ol’ Clint is getting close to 80 now anyway! The Party must be built at the grassroots. Use the POTUS race to build paying memberships and student support. Period end of statement.

  23. Kevin Knedler

    too funny Paulie. At the Denver convention, I remember that the Ohio team filled about 11 of the 45 seats. Of course St. Louis was a different story. Ohioans may travel well to OSU football games, but I am not sure about LP conventions. lol

  24. Robert Capozzi

    a27: A lot of people assumed that having Bob Barr as a candidate was going to lead to a big breakthrough because Barr was a former Republican congressman, but this obviously did not end up happening.

    me: Hmm, I thought Barr was the BEST CHANCE to break through, but I assumed another <1% showing. I'd be surprised if Barr supporters didn't generally have a similar take.

    My criteria might go something like:

    1) Credible, with national ID
    2) Articulate and telegenic
    3) Likely to inspire, including fundraising abilities
    4) Up on the issues…Michele Bachman-esque is a non-starter
    5) Believer that liberty maximization is the best course
    6) Synthesizer of ideas, i.e., able to frame complex situations for maximum rhetorical impact
    7) Strong staff
    8) Energetic
    9) Grounded ego
    10) Intelligent but humble

  25. Wayne Root

    @27…thanks for the description of ideal candidate. Back in 2008 when I became your LP Vice Presidential nominee I was a completely unknown quality to LP. Since then I’ve been elected to LNC (as #1 vote getter)…became Chairman of the LNCC…worked day and night to gain exposure and branding for LP…traveled to dozens of state conventions…and appeared on about 2000 media to expand the LP message to millions of mainstream voters. Now instead of a newcomer…I am a LP veteran with quite a long track record of success and activism.

    And the man called “Mr. Libertarian” by media across the USA.

    I am not only branded as “Mr. Libertarian”…I have the biggest mega-phone in LP history.

    More importantly, I’ve proven I’m willing to out-work anyone anywhere.

    I’ve “earned my stripes.”

    Whether I actually choose to run for President is a whole ‘nother issue. Lots of time and deliberate thought will go into that decision.

    And I’m waiting to see the actual effect Ron Paul and Gary Johnson are having in GOP Presidential race. That should be a very important factor in determining how we handle our nomination. It would effect media, fundraising and the future of America. My goal is not just the LP, but the future of America for my children and future grandchildren.

  26. Wayne Root

    @30

    Thank you Robert for your description. You’ve just described all of my attributes and advantages for the LP Presidential nomination…

    And you can add one…open to listening and interacting. In all of America, no other potential credible Presidential possibility is willing to actually talk to their critics on a web site…and engage. I hope my willingness to drop into IPR from time to time is appreciated.

    The only attributes on your list I’m not known for are #9 and #10.

    Having a small ego and being humble are not the attributes of any winning candidate for President in modern history…nor the attributes of CEO’s or self made successful businesspersons anywhere in the business world.

    To get to the top takes great tenacity, toughness and yes- ego. Without great confidence and CHUTZPAH, you cannot rise above the loud opposition. Without ego you cannot make the tough decisions that offend some people…but are essential to success. Without ego, you can never stand up for what you believe in…or walk onto major national TV and radio shows and stand toe to toe with the biggest names in media or politics.

    The LP has had candidates without the necessary ego or media skills over the years. Candidates who could not impress on the national media radar screen.

    We need a bigger than life personality with a megaphone. Small ego and humble get you a job as a librarian…not election as the first modern third party President.

  27. Robert Capozzi

    Wayne, I don’t equilibrate ego with confidence. Corporate CEOs I’ve observed become BLINDED by their ego, and some end up in jail, like Bernie Ebbers, who I encountered and watched fairly closely for years. WorldCom/MCI became all about Bernie, vs. all about serving customers and maximizing shareholder value.

    IMO, real chutzpah comes from a sense of virtue in what one is doing, not from receiving validation from sycophants. I look at people like Gandhi and Mandela as role models for great leadership qualities (not necessarily for their political stances, esp. Mandela).

    It’s a fine line. Being audacious — and following the courage of your convictions — while staying grounded and humble. Ron Paul has achieved this to some extent, IMO.

    As a former NYer, it’s culturally in your blood to be brash and in your face. (I have a bit of this, too, being from LI.) The question that only you can answer is: Is your mission about Wayne aggrandizement, or about making the world a better place for future generations? It may well be both, as it is for most, but my suggestion is that you will likely be a far more effective instrument for liberty if your focus in principally on the latter. IMO.

    Is this a calling, or is this an ego stroke? “Gandhi” or “Ebbers”?

  28. Wayne Root

    Robert,

    It can’t be for personal advancement because no LP candidate in history has ever turned the LP into personal success or money or political success. I’d go much further as a Republican.

    By the way, I am called and emailed about 100 to 200 times a month by strangers and friends begging me to switch back to the GOP…arguing that I’m now a major personality…but that the LP is a dead end going nowhere…and it’s time if I’m serious…to become a Republican again.

    Yet I continue to stay in the LP. Why?

    Because as I said this morning on a radio interview “The Dems want to cut $5 BB from a $3.7 Bb budget…the GOP wants to cut a measly $61 BB. That’s like arguing over the deck chairs on the titanic. Thats like me owing $1,000,000 and arguing with my wife over whether we cut $1 or $5 from our budget. Neither party makes any sense. We are facing a disaster. Armageddon. Yet neither party is willing to make the cuts necessary to save America. Yet they are the ones who got us in this hole.”

    Yes Robert, I am in this to save America for my children and future grandchildren.

    Just as my parents were two of the founding members of the New York State Conservative Party for the same reasons. And they turned it into a great success that ELECTED candidates and made a difference.

    So yes it is a calling. I was raised since almost birth in politics and small business. They are the loves of my life.

    And as far as ego- Mohammed Ali said it best…”It aint bragging if you can back it up.”

  29. Robert Capozzi

    wr: It can’t be for personal advancement because no LP candidate in history has ever turned the LP into personal success or money or political success.

    me: Actually, I would LOVE to see this change, and you’ve done a pretty good job so far achieving some personal advancement as a professional L. Your book and media efforts seem to be paying some dividends, and it appears that you’ve earned it through your efforts.

    I personally would not cite Ali, as his bravado led him to stay in the ring too long, leading to irreparable brain damage. Could be that he was listening to his ego more than his higher self (soul) to his own detriment.

    Maybe think of it this way: Advancing liberty is its own reward. If it actually pays, all the better!

    HOW one advances liberty is a function of the gifts we are given and the skills we hone. Yours have been more consequential than most, but even there, there’s a lifetime of work to do undoing the State down to — at least — non-crushing levels.

    Along the way, we undo our ego-driven, reflexive reactions and arrive at higher and higher truths. But we’re all works in progress, including — all due respect — you. And, most assuredly, me!

    I suggest that this one’s a marathon, not a sprint. I sometimes get the sense that you rush to judgment about news-cycle issues (e.g., Cordoba House, Egypt) when old reflexes have not entirely been undone. While I did not agree with your instant takes on those issues, my feedback is that your takes came across as hastily crafted. We’re all doing our best and we all make mistakes, but remember the order is ready, aim, fire.

    The situations in Libya and Japan have me wondering out loud whether STRICT non-intervention is the road to liberty, too…I’m just not so sure. But walking a mile in another’s shoes does seem like good idea, if only to understand other people’s perspectives.

  30. Wayne Root

    Robert,

    My views on Mosque at 9/11 turned out to be view of a majority of New Yorkers (in liberal NY) and a HUGE overwhelming majority of Americans. Thats exactly what LP needs. A leader with gut instincts and common sense who is “Libertarian” on most issues, most of the time…but errs on the side of good ‘ole American blue collar common sense on a few side issues… that if you disagree with mainstream Americans on…you turn mainstream voters completely off and brand the LP as a party of extreme radicals, or New Age bleeding heart liberals.

    I have no interest in being branded either one. My views are reasonable and moderate. My views on the Mosque were NOT anti-Muslim. They were pro common sense and thoughtful towards Americans and offended New Yorkers and offended Christians and Jews. Most voters appreciated my comments- all meant to avoid controversy that would create hate and ill feelings.

    And to top it off, I threaded the needle and found a way to build my opinion around a Libertarian belief- the people and protests could stop the mosque, not the government. No different than war protests that so many Libertarians participate in. Or the protests that led to the end of Yucca Mountain nuclear project in Nevada. In the end the people and taxpayers have a say.

    As far as Egypt…my commentary, that perhaps IPR readers didn’t like, turned out to be exactly correct in every way after-the-fact. Read both of my commentaries.

    I said:

    A) It wasn’t clear who the good guys or bad guys were. It might be everyone.

    B) We should stay out of it.

    C) It’s all proof the U.S. should stop foreign aid to countries like Egypt.

    D) If Mubarak leaves, he will probably be replaced by another military general not much different than him.

    E) It’s not clear who will take power next…but if it’s a military dictator, little progress has been made for the Egyptian people. If it’s Muslim Brotherhood it is a tragedy for everyone involved…

    But the U.S. instead of cheering, should be very nervous, cautious and cynical. Our oil is on the line…therefore our economy.

    I said all of that…it’s all turned out true. Eerily true.

    And all of it was well received on conservative talk radio. Which is where I get major exposure for the LP.

  31. JT

    Since you’ve read others’ lists of qualifications for President, Wayne, here’s mine:

    1. Articulate speaker and polished appearance
    2. Ability to raise a lot of money prior to the national convention
    3. No interest in discussing conspiracy theories
    4. No history of socially conservative or economically liberal leadership
    5. Strong commitment to seriously
    reducing government across the board

    From 1-4, I think you’d be a great Libertarian candidate for President. The last one is a problem.

    Most of the delegates to the Libertarian national convention (and Libertarians in general) are social liberals and foreign non-interventionists. I don’t think they’ll support you, despite your major media profile, because of your exclusive focus on economic issues and outreach to conservatives. Your commitment to far less government on social issues and in foreign affairs is widely viewed as shaky at best. I believe this cost you the Libertarian presidential nomination in 2008 and the Libertarian national chairmanship in 2010.

    I don’t think this obstacle is insurmountable. But I do think an adjustment needs to be made if you have any aspirations of being the Libertarian candidate for President in 2012 or 2016. Just my two cents though.

  32. TinFoilCap & JockeyShorts to Match

    Let the second smartest Jew of all time speak from the past –>

    Proverbs 27: 2 Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips.

    —–

    I don’t know personally, but some people have more problems with the OFFICIAL story—>

    Uncle Denny on The Towers- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3FiXMt2V3w&feature=related

    The story in the middle east is a story ALREADY told, if you paid attention in last week’s IPR classroom!

    Are We All Just Pawns on the Grand Chess Board? – http://constitutionpartyoftennessee.com/2011/03/07/are-we-all-just-pawns-on-the-grand-chess-board/

    and who’s REALLY yo momma and daddy?!

    “If my sons did not want wars, there would be none.” – Gutle Schnaper, wife of Mayer Amschel Rothschild

    Jordan Maxwell – You are property of the Rothschild family! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlOUXWQP-KM&NR=1&feature=fvwp

    Excuse me you can go back to sleep now.

    AGAIN, Thanks Mr. Gary for entering! Try to ENJOY the ride. – -

    I always do.

  33. paulie Post author

    Well, I won’t try too hard to keep this on topic now…Roger can show up if he wants to, I emailed him a while back.

    Wayne

    I hope my willingness to drop into IPR from time to time is appreciated.

    Absolutely.

    Your willingness to change your positions at times is appreciated as well.

    And the hard work. I hope Libertarians who criticize you emulate that.

    And I’m waiting to see the actual effect Ron Paul and Gary Johnson are having in GOP Presidential race. That should be a very important factor in determining how we handle our nomination. It would effect media, fundraising and the future of America. My goal is not just the LP, but the future of America for my children and future grandchildren.

    I think LP candidates for the presidential nomination should be active in Ron Paul meetups all over the country, doing real work for Ron Paul while simultaneously marketing themselves as a Plan B in the likely event that the Republicans pick another establishment nominee. Getting those contacts and gaining street cred with Ron Paul supporters would be crucial for a post-nomination LP campaign.

  34. Jill Pyeatt

    I would add to the list of qualifications for Presidential qualifications:

    Willingess to answer questions asked of him.

  35. Jill Pyeatt

    Yes, I have, paulie, and it seems to work. I’ve been a little too busy to post an article, but I’ll get to it soon!

  36. Robert Capozzi

    Wayne, thank for this thoughtful dialog. And thank you for your service to the cause of liberty. I trust that my feedback is taken in the spirit it is offered: constructive criticism. Know that I was a strong, vocal critic on these pages of the attempts of two state LPs to purge you from the LNC and LNCC. I’m just one voice, and am generally considered to be a “reformer,” fwiw. But, mostly, I’m just a L sharing ideas on a blog about how I think we can optimize the message of liberty in a political context.

    I don’t subscribe to a one-size-fits-all L-ism. I don’t think that has been or will be effective. I personally resonate more with a moderate, centrist L message, but I certainly agree with you that right-leaning, fusionist community is probably our most target-rich prospect pool, sans the haters! Anti-authoritarian left-leaners are IMO also a prospective constituency, despite their often reflexive reliance on government “solutions” to economic challenges.

    I probably should reread your columns on Cordoba House and Egypt, but I’m going from memory. I have no doubt that many, perhaps most, Americans had a view similar to yours. And I share with you that I think Ls should be as “populist” as possible. Sometimes, however, the populist impulse is tonally and politically anti-liberty, as I see it. I would prefer to see prominent Ls such as yourself to not – in effect – adding fuel to the populist fire when that fire is raging in unpleasant directions. There is a disturbing anti-Islam trend in the US, and I would strongly prefer to see the LP and Ls NOT me-too that sort of thing. (This is not to say that there are not militant Muslims that wish this country ill…there certainly are! We know, however, that a few bad apples does not justify this unpleasant trend toward an anti-Muslim bias.)

    Like you, I think Ls can get wrapped around their axles in literalistic, theoretical posturing, to our detriment. Still, I do think that Ls should strongly distance ourselves from right-wing haters. We’ve seen how playing footsie with them leads to disasters like Ron Paul’s NewsletterGate. My recollection of your columns on Cordoba House and Egypt was that you danced too closely toward them. (I can reread them and cite examples if you’d find that helpful.) You are a professional politician and pundit, and I a mere IPR commenter, so of course my sincere suggestions here are worth whatever value you put on them, if any. My counsel remains: Avoid even the implication that Ls in any way approve of hate rhetoric or US-backed dictators.

    This comment of yours: “But the U.S. instead of cheering, should be very nervous, cautious and cynical. Our oil is on the line…therefore our economy.”

    Is not entirely clear to me. I would think Ls of any lean would recognize that the situation in the ME is cause for concern. I certainly am. I certainly admire the Arab street for challenging dictators. I can certainly see that replacing them with theocratic zealots could lead to a worse outcome for Arabs in those nations. I’m not aware that Tunisia and Egypt have oil, but certainly Egypt falling into the hands of theocrats could disturb important trade routes. Developments on the Arabian peninsula seem more to the point, but I do think it’s clear that it’s NOT “our” oil. Nor does the USG have a sterling track record in manipulating win/win situations in foreign nations. The current climate seems pronouncedly chaotic, making US covert or overt intervention especially ill advised, certainly as the default position. Libya MAY be an exception, given the special circumstances, IMO.

    In so many things, sometimes/often it’s wisest to do nothing.

    Much success to you, and thank you for listening.

  37. Robert Capozzi

    wr: And I’m waiting to see the actual effect Ron Paul and Gary Johnson are having in GOP Presidential race. That should be a very important factor in determining how we handle our nomination.

    me: Wise. The 08 LNC did their best, but my sense is they were overwhelmed by events.

    Practice makes perfect!

  38. paulie Post author

    It’s actually part of the world oil supply that sets the price of our oil. I believe I’ve read that only 6% of US oil comes from the middle east, but since it makes a large part of the world supply it has a large impact on the price of all the world’s oil.

  39. Tom Blanton

    I’m wondering, if the money was right, and if the production was first rate, and if nothing too dangerous transpired, would Wayne be willing to do a feature-length hard-core porn flick with Sarah Palin?

    Of course, there would be Christian and conservative themes presented in the film along with loads of outrageous kinky sex in HD.

    This thing could make tons of dough, create a lot of jobs, and deliver a hard-hitting message to America.

    How about it Wayne?

  40. Porn Again Christian

    Can I be Wayne’s stunt double? I feel a calling from the Lord to do this, possibly in French…

  41. John Jay Myers

    I am sorry but it’s easy to cherry pick things from an article and say I made these points.
    But the unfortunate side effect to the Mosque article was that it alienated libertarians, and it made us appear in and unfavorable light to many of the people and causes that would normally find a natural fit within our party. Like anti-war people and Ron Paul libertarians….well or libertarians.

    People who are hardcore on the Mosque issue, those that would enjoy that type of take, are not going to vote Libertarian….ever.

    It was in the over all tone of the article that the damage was done.

    I am glad to have put my take on it out there early to help counteract the negative vibes coming at the party and that Ron Paul was able to put his take out there so his more reasonable libertarian point of view made it into the major media.

    I completely believe in freedom of speech, but sometimes I think we need to think twice about how the party is represented.

    I think, like others on this thread, that these things may come back to haunt Wayne if expects more support in the future.

  42. Andy

    “I think LP candidates for the presidential nomination should be active in Ron Paul meetups all over the country, doing real work for Ron Paul while simultaneously marketing themselves as a Plan B in the likely event that the Republicans pick another establishment nominee. Getting those contacts and gaining street cred with Ron Paul supporters would be crucial for a post-nomination LP campaign.”

    I’ve been saying this since 2007.

  43. Andy

    “Wayne Root // Mar 15, 2011 at 2:11 pm

    Robert,

    My views on Mosque at 9/11 turned out to be view of a majority of New Yorkers (in liberal NY) and a HUGE overwhelming majority of Americans. Thats exactly what LP needs. A leader with gut instincts and common sense who is ‘Libertarian’ on most issues, most of the time…but errs on the side of good ‘ole American blue collar common sense on a few side issues…”

    I can’t say that I agree with this. I think that people should be able to build whatever type of religious center that they want to build. If some people don’t like it, that’s their problem.

  44. paulie Post author

    Andy @ 53

    When you’re right, you’re right. We didn’t have the money to do that with Steve, Phillies would certainly have no interest in that, and the other 2008 LP candidates got in the game too late to do it. The 2012 candidates that are already announcing or “exploring” or even thinking about it can implement this.

  45. Andy

    “paulie // Mar 15, 2011 at 10:32 pm

    When you’re right, you’re right. We didn’t have the money to do that with Steve,”

    Steve did a little of that by endorsing Ron Paul, but he could have and should have done a lot more, and I think that he could have done more, even with a limited budget.

  46. paulie Post author

    If some people don’t like it, that’s their problem.

    They do have the right to protest, regardless of whether we agree with their protests or find them to be in bad taste.

    Libertarians can legitimately disagree which side of such protests they back as long as they are not calling on a government “solution.”

  47. paulie Post author

    @56 What exactly? We had no travel money at all. I’m suggesting a candidate travel all over the country, work with and get to know people in a lot of local meetups. That was simply not feasible with Kubby.

  48. Darryl W. Perry

    Wayne you say LP needs a leader with gut instincts and common sense who is “Libertarian” on most issues, most of the time

    WRONG, WRONG WRONG The LP (or any other libertarian party) needs spokesmen (or spokeswomen) that are libertarian on ALL ISSUES, ALL OF THE TIME!

  49. Porn Again Christian

    I like how Aaron Russo put it; All Our Freedoms All The Time. Too bad he’s not around to run for office anymore. I’d still vote for him anyway, dead or alive.

  50. Andy

    “paulie // Mar 15, 2011 at 10:40 pm

    @56 What exactly? We had no travel money at all. I’m suggesting a candidate travel all over the country, work with and get to know people in a lot of local meetups. That was simply not feasible with Kubby.”

    Steve could have made YouTube videos about supporting Ron Paul. He could have gotten involved with local Ron Paul Meet Ups around where he lived. He could have asked his few supporters around the county to go to Ron Paul Meet Ups in their areas and to talk about his campaign being a back up to Ron Paul’s and to hand out his campaign literature, and he could have asked his supporters to sign people up for his email list at these meetings as well.

  51. Andy

    “They do have the right to protest, regardless of whether we agree with their protests or find them to be in bad taste.

    Libertarians can legitimately disagree which side of such protests they back as long as they are not calling on a government ‘solution.’”

    Sure, they’ve got a right to protest, even though I think that their protesting was stupid. I think that many of these protestors wanted to go further than just protesting in that they want to use government to stop the Mosque/Islamic center from being built.

  52. Maybe Nut

    You can agree witha protest but not with all the people there. Libertarians can go to antiwar protests even though they are organized by communists who want more funding for domestic programs. They can go to Tea Parties event though a lot of the people there are warmongers and social conservatives (including some of the speakers).

    And if Wayne Root wants to protest against an Islamic Center in downtown New York, he can do so, even if some of the people there want to abuse eminent domain or some other government force to achieve their goals….so long as he does not join that particular call, his position is still libertarian on this issue, although many other libertarians disagree with it.

    And even if he does take an un-libertarian position on a small number of issues, if that number is small, he is still a libertarian.

  53. Andy

    “And if Wayne Root wants to protest against an Islamic Center in downtown New York, he can do so, even if some of the people there want to abuse eminent domain or some other government force to achieve their goals….so long as he does not join that particular call, his position is still libertarian on this issue, although many other libertarians disagree with it. ”

    It was a stupid protest regardless of whether a protestor was in favor of using government to stop the center from being built or not.

  54. Thomas L. Knapp

    “Steve could have made YouTube videos about supporting Ron Paul.”

    His animated commercial featured, indeed opened with, a Ron Paul “Revolution” banner/parade.

    “He could have gotten involved with local Ron Paul Meet Ups around where he lived.”

    He did. As a matter of fact, I think he may have started the Ron Paul meetup where he lived.

    “He could have asked his few supporters around the county to go to Ron Paul Meet Ups in their areas and to talk about his campaign being a back up to Ron Paul’s and to hand out his campaign literature, and he could have asked his supporters to sign people up for his email list at these meetings as well.”

    I don’t recall how much of that he did.

    Of course, I thought (and think) that all of it was a bad idea, but he did do what he did do.

  55. Andy

    “His animated commercial featured, indeed opened with, a Ron Paul “Revolution” banner/parade.”

    I forgot about that. That video never took off (unfortunately). Still, he could have done more videos. I remember he put out a few when it got close to convention time, but by then it was too little too late. He should have put out more videos, and he should have talked about supporting Ron Paul and being a back up candidate for him in some of them.

    “He did. As a matter of fact, I think he may have started the Ron Paul meetup where he lived.”

    Very cool if did that. He should have made videos of him at this Ron Paul Meet Up and posted them to YouTube. He could have been a speaker at other Ron Paul Meet Ups, at least in California if he couldn’t make it to Meet Ups in other states.

    “I don’t recall how much of that he did.”

    I don’t think that he encouraged any supporters to pass out his campaign literature or gather contacts at any Ron Paul Meet Ups.

    “Of course, I thought (and think) that all of it was a bad idea, but he did do what he did do.”

    Yeah, and you also thought that talking about the Federal Reserve was a bad idea, and now even you acknowledge that it has become a big issue.

  56. Steven R Linnabary

    My views on (insert issue) turned out to be view of a majority of New Yorkers (in liberal NY) and a HUGE overwhelming majority of Americans. Thats exactly what LP needs. A leader with gut instincts and common sense who is ‘Libertarian’ on most issues, most of the time…but errs on the side of good ‘ole American blue collar common sense on a few side issues…”

    I personally prefer to use ONLY libertarian arguments when making a point. Even on issues where I am in the minority, I try to use my mediocre salesmanship to make other people think that my position is superior, especially when I am arguing with other libertarians.

    For instance, on a conservative blog, I posted this (in response to the WI strikers):

    I’ll go out on a limb and say that maybe these government workers should get all they want, including free Viagra (yes that is one of the demands of the WI strikers).

    I’ll even posit that unions ALWAYS gum up any workplace they have ever touched. But in the case of government, do we really want them to be able to do all they can to us? Government SHOULD be gummed up like a rectum with an opiate suppository.

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/block/block174.html

    http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2011/03/in-defense-of-walter-blocks-call-of.html

    Not sure if I caused people to think or not, but I think I can defend my ideas on basic “libertarian” ideals.

    PEACE

  57. Thomas L. Knapp

    Andy@69,

    “Yeah, and you also thought that talking about the Federal Reserve was a bad idea, and now even you acknowledge that it has become a big issue.”

    And your point is? Since when have I ever pretended to always be right? I make my predictions/claims and my corrections/admissions of error in public.

    The Fed issue has proven to have legs (even though it still shows no sign of bringing substantial numbers of votes in for anyone). I didn’t think it would. I was wrong.

    I’ve seen no reason to think that I was wrong about whether or not Kubby should endorse Paul. In case you didn’t notice, it didn’t exactly bump up his fundraising or put him over the top at the LP’s national convention. If anything, it cost him points with the libertarian wing of the LP.

  58. Robert Capozzi

    More on the Cordoba House…

    Were I coming from a Root-type of place (fusionist), and I felt compelled to write about CH at the time (rather than remain silent, which might have been the better course), I might have made a different set of points:

    1) Freedom of religion is non-negotiable, even when members of a religion have done something hurtful

    2) Most religions have a doctrine tantamount to the Golden Rule. Before doing anything, how would a Christian or Jew or Buddhist in a Muslim country feel if the authorities said you can’t build your church or temple?

    3) The rule of law is also non-negotiable, including the presumption of innocence. When the backgrounds of CH developers were questioned in the public square, that is certainly cause for concern. But the public square is NOT a court of law!

    4) The symbolism of CH is understandably offensive to some. See 1-3 for appropriate responses.

    I don’t agree with comments that say CH detractors are necessarily not L voters. As Root points out, some “liberals” were CH detractors, too. It wasn’t just a “conservative” issue. It was, rather, a “populist” issue. Populism can be incendiary or it can be powerful. I suggest Ls generally need to tune their ears to discern the difference, including me.

    For ex., I find the death penalty off-the-hook offensive. In that case, I generally downplay the issue for populist reasons. My view is not ready for prime time, sadly. Were I advising a L candidate, I would suggest answering the question forthrightly but briefly, but noting that, at this time, I recognize that the popular will does not support my view, so I do not plan for this to be part of my message or agenda.

    There are populist-type issues where a L might want to get at the front of the parade, like CH. The desire to gain wide acceptance of the broader set of L ideas makes that tempting. However, doing so is high-risk and low-reward, IMO, since me-too-ing populist issues generally does little to advance the broader L agenda, IMO.

    Being thoughtful about them just might.

    I disagree with both Root and Perry on the matter of being L on “all” issues. Has Moses come down from on high with a tablet with THE L position on everything? Nope.

    Ayn taught us to check the premise…wise counsel.

  59. Here is a radical idea

    @ # 59
    Leader. LP most of the time uh.

    Depends on if it is a national chair race or a national candidate. Big difference.
    LP members elect a national chair.
    The voting public elect candidates for public office and MOST are NOT members of the LP.

  60. Jake Porter

    Paulie Said: “Phillies would certainly have no interest in that, and the other 2008 LP candidates got in the game too late to do it.”

    Actually it isn’t well known, but we had several volunteers active in the Ron Paul meetups across the country and after March of 2008 many Paul supporters had volunteered for the Phillies campaign and I was able to get some of them to support Barr after the nomination.

  61. LibertarianGirl

    Porn Again Christian // Mar 15, 2011 at 11:14 pm

    I like how Aaron Russo put it; All Our Freedoms All The Time. Too bad he’s not around to run for office anymore. I’d still vote for him anyway, dead or alive.

    me_ me too , he is my favorite LP candidate ever… what a great man , his big bear hugs will be forever missed

  62. MarcMontoni

    I’m going to say this once. If Roger Gary is interested in recruiting new members and prospects, and is successful in doing so between now and the convention, he will have my vote with few reservations.

    Wayne Allyn Root has spent the better part of the last couple of years paying a professional media bookings agency to land him talking-head spots on conservative media. Being involved in recruiting members in Virginia myself (I have copies of the membership forms for anyone who seeks need proof — anyone is welcome to come here and inspect them), I have a finger on the pulse of new inquiries coming in from various sources.

    So far, I haven’t seen anything resulting from all those media hits.

    If my choice is between a candidate 1) who draws media hits but who does nothing to alter a flat membership growth curve, or 2) a candidate who may not inspire a lot of media but results in several thousand new members (like the campaigns of Ron Paul, Andre Marrou, and Harry Browne inspired), then I’ll take door #2 every time.

    Presidential campaigns, for the LP, are not about the candidate. They are about building the LP so we have the strength in the future to effectively compete with the majors.

    The reason the LP hasn’t gotten there in 40 years is because LP leaders, opportunists, ‘reformers’, and others lose sight of the fact that this election is about the next election.

    I see the nomination process as analogous to a music website that allows the sampling of a couple of minutes of a larger song before one buys. With our campaigns, the pre-nomination period, in theory, allows LP members to see which candidates are the best at:

    1. Recruiting new members;
    2. Re-engaging former members;
    3. Raising money;
    4. Earning media; and
    5. Producing campaign materials and ads.

    In 1988, we had a choice between two candidates—Russell Means and Ron Paul (as well as a couple of others I don’t remember). Both were “good” at getting people involved in the Party (the also-rans were not) and both were also pretty good at raising money; although neither Paul nor Means released their supporter database to the LP so they could be contacted for the next campaign.

    The “Paul Surge” of new members that continued from 1988 to about 1990 was primarily people who called the LP directly because they’d been inspired to do so by the Paul campaign — I know because I personally fielded more than a few of their phone calls even a year later, in the course of my duties as an LPHQ employee between 2989-1993. Unfortunately those people were but a small subset of the number of people who were on the Paul campaign database. From December 1987 to December 1988, the LP only increased it membership rolls from 5500 to 6300 (about 14%).

    1992, Andre Marrou demonstrated very clearly that a pre-nomination candidate could recruit a lot of new members. Both in advance of the nomination, and after it, Marrou made absolutely sure that LPHQ was promptly given all new names generated by his campaign, so the Party could ask them to join/support the LP. I know because one of my jobs as an LPHQ staffer was to get the information packets out to the prospects. In fact the 1992 election-year spike brought the LP to its then-highest membership level ever, from about 9,000 to about 12,000 members (25% increase).

    The Browne campaign’s 1996 and 2000 sharing of supporter contact information was based on the Marrou model. The direct result was thousands of people were brought into the LP by Browne in 1995 and 1996.

    Opponents running against Marrou and Browne did nothing similar during the pre-nomination window. Dick Boddie, for instance, didn’t share any of his supporter data with the LP. Neither did Tompkins, Gorman, Hornberger, or anyone else.

    In any case, nothing will dissuade me that the pre-nomination period should be seen as anything other than the “candidate test drive”. The nomination at the convention should be seen as the “buy”. The candidate who does the best job of recruiting new friends into the Party and the movement should be given the nod by delegates. The ones who refuse to do that should be ignored.

  63. Robert Capozzi

    mm, by your logic, if David Duke brings 20K of his buds to the LP, he gets the nod?

    I know you say “nothing will dissuade” you, and perhaps I misunderstand what you’re saying, but that’s how I read your comment. Do I understand you correctly?

  64. Nicholas Sarwark

    Robert, are you deliberately reading past Marc’s caveats?

    He said he would support Roger Gary “with few reservations,” not absolutely, if he brought in members.

    He also said “nothing would dissuade me that the pre-nomination period should be seen as anything other than the “candidate test drive”.

    Marc is not going to support a non-libertarian, but all things being equal, will support the candidate that builds the party over the one that does not.

  65. TinFoilCap & JockeyShorts to Match

    Is this, this Mr. Gary? http://www.meetup.com/SCD-SA/members/151444/photos/
    if so hope he’s found a running mate or should I say soul mate!?

    also LPedia has: http://www.lpedia.org/Roger_Gary

    ~~“`~~
    Help FIND the LIBERTARIANS in your area WITH the QUIZ ACROSS AMERICA: http://www.lp.org/blogs/staff/quiz-across-america-door-hangers-5-per-100

    Become a LP ACTIVIST where you live, SPREAD THE MESSAGE @ the grassroots: http://www.lp.org/take-a-look

    Libertarian Products and Supplies make GREAT GIFTS too: http://www.LPSTUFF.COM/shop

  66. MarcMontoni

    Bob, keep the straw men to yourself.

    1) Duke wouldn’t join the LP;
    2) Even if he did, he doesn’t have 20k friends;
    3) Unlike some, I *assume* my choice is going to be a real, actual, philosophical Libertarian. I also generally assume that most LP members are not going to consider a Duke for even a second, and that Duke would know that (he really does — he happened to be seated next to Bill Redpath on an airline flight back in the early 90′s, and said as much).

    The LP may be weak, but we’re not *that* weak. The NYLP was weak enough that Howard Stern could “overrun” the state convention with a couple of dozen ringers (no offense meant to Robert Ringer); but he almost missed even then. The national convention, weak as it is with 300-700 members, would be a much bigger nut to crack.

    Please put just a little thought and reason into your commentary.

  67. paulie Post author

    I slam Islam @ 67, a song by a neo-nazi bonehead who killed an African immigrant for the crime of being black, and then killed himself because he couldn’t face going to prison, is supposed to be convincing?

  68. paulie Post author

    SRL

    I’ll go out on a limb and say that maybe these government workers should get all they want, including free Viagra (yes that is one of the demands of the WI strikers).

    I’ll even posit that unions ALWAYS gum up any workplace they have ever touched. But in the case of government, do we really want them to be able to do all they can to us? Government SHOULD be gummed up like a rectum with an opiate suppository.

    Nicely done, lol :-)

  69. paulie Post author

    I’ve seen no reason to think that I was wrong about whether or not Kubby should endorse Paul. In case you didn’t notice, it didn’t exactly bump up his fundraising or put him over the top at the LP’s national convention. If anything, it cost him points with the libertarian wing of the LP.

    I think if Steve had been able to do everything Andy suggests in terms of going to a lot of different meetups, making many youtubes about it, etc., he could have benefited IMO. What happened instead is that I got busy with petitioning and had little internet access, you got busy with something or another, Steve got busy with a local campaign, and we all disappeared from view after the Ron Paul endorsement. Then the campaign video came out after a long delay and fizzled, and there was no backup plan (always have backup plans). Then there was the bumbling with the teleprompter and Steve having the flu in February. By then we lost too much momentum, and Ruwart and then Barr entered the race, so it was basically over.

    The endorsement by itself was not enough. There has to be a lot more to it, otherwise you’re right, don’t do it at all.

  70. paulie Post author

    JP

    Actually it isn’t well known, but we had several volunteers active in the Ron Paul meetups across the country and after March of 2008 many Paul supporters had volunteered for the Phillies campaign and I was able to get some of them to support Barr after the nomination.

    I knew that…but George would not have done it himself, he was largely negative about Ron Paul. For reasons I generally agreed with, too, although I did not see them as overshadowing the many things Ron Paul is correct about.

    That is not to mention the direct mailings and Internet advertising we directed at Paul’s supporters.

    Yes, I did know about that…

    LG

    I was a Phillies campaign volunteer.

    I don’t think I knew that. If I did, I forgot.

    I still say he had the most organized campaign , with the most official position papers out of everybody.

    True.

  71. paulie Post author

    I like how Aaron Russo put it; All Our Freedoms All The Time. Too bad he’s not around to run for office anymore. I’d still vote for him anyway, dead or alive.

    me_ me too , he is my favorite LP candidate ever… what a great man , his big bear hugs will be forever missed

    Yeah, I still wish he had been nominated.

  72. NewFederalist

    paulie- I am SO sorry I peeked at the meetup link you posted! That sure is Roger but he looks a bit different than the last time I saw him in 1985. Perhaps I might as well.

  73. paulie Post author

    most LP members are not going to consider a Duke for even a second, and that Duke would know that

    I’m not nearly as sure on either count as I was 5 years ago.

  74. paulie Post author

    paulie- I am SO sorry I peeked at the meetup link you posted!

    I didn’t post it. I was just answering Tin Foil Cap and Jockey Shorts’ question whether that was Roger.

    he looks a bit different than the last time I saw him in 1985. Perhaps I might as well.

    So do I, but then I was 13 in 1985 :-)

  75. Wagner- New LPOregon Chair

    “JP

    Actually it isn’t well known, but we had several volunteers active in the Ron Paul meetups across the country and after March of 2008 many Paul supporters had volunteered for the Phillies campaign and I was able to get some of them to support Barr after the nomination.

    I knew that…but George would not have done it himself, he was largely negative about Ron Paul. For reasons I generally agreed with, too, although I did not see them as overshadowing the many things Ron Paul is correct about. ”

    Not true. While I encouraged my state people — I had a campaign with state people — to prusue as described, many of my campaign’s large-scale efforts to pursue Ron Paul supporters were at my initiative. Ron Paul and Ron Paul supporters are different people, and my campaign generated a list of over 30,000 of the latter.

  76. Steven Wilson

    I think a general forum held by the LP should be enough to give all hopefuls a chance. To deny that there are certain areas where Libertarians exist is foolish. Texas is now front and ready. I wish Roger all the best and hope to hear his views.

    If the individuals they field are not ready, well, time will tell.

    I will say this about the game. In any game, there is the critical moment. What the game players do at the moment dictates the outcome of the game. If the LP issues another dead egg on the ballot tickets across America in 2012, it won’t mean much after that. If the party dulls in 12, 2016 will be the last run.

    America needs another Harry Browne. And his name is Ron Paul. He stampedes as an elephant, because the LP serves a snake.

  77. Andy

    “If my choice is between a candidate 1) who draws media hits but who does nothing to alter a flat membership growth curve, or 2) a candidate who may not inspire a lot of media but results in several thousand new members (like the campaigns of Ron Paul, Andre Marrou, and Harry Browne inspired), then I’ll take door #2 every time.”

    I totally agree. It is one thing to get media coverage, but it is another thing to turn that media coverage into people who want to join the party.

  78. Andy

    “And your point is? Since when have I ever pretended to always be right? I make my predictions/claims and my corrections/admissions of error in public.”

    You were wrong about the Fed and you are also wrong about the Ron Paul r3VOLution, and you are also wrong about the 9/11 Truth Movement.

    “The Fed issue has proven to have legs (even though it still shows no sign of bringing substantial numbers of votes in for anyone). I didn’t think it would. I was wrong.”

    If had listened to me about this back when the Kubby campaign was starting out, and IF Kubby had jumped on that wave like I suggested, maybe he would have done better. It’s not like he could have done much worse.

    “I’ve seen no reason to think that I was wrong about whether or not Kubby should endorse Paul.”

    Well then you must be blind. The Ron Paul r3VOLution crowd is EXACTLY what the Libertarian Party needs.

    “In case you didn’t notice, it didn’t exactly bump up his fundraising or put him over the top at the LP’s national convention. If anything, it cost him points with the libertarian wing of the LP.”

    I think that it helped a little bit. I voted for Steve Kubby at the National Convention and Steve’s endorsement of Ron Paul is one of the reasons that I voted for him (I voted for him on some of the Presidential ballots, but I voted for Ruwart in other rounds for the Presidential ballot; I voted for Steve on every ballot for the VP slot).

    He needed to do a lot more than just endorse Ron Paul and show up at some local Ron Paul Meet Up group near where he lived. He needed to make a lot of noise about being part of the Ron Paul r3VOLution. He needed to make YouTube videos of himself engaging in activist activities with Ron Paul supporters. He needed to travel around and speak at a as many Ron Paul Meet Ups as he could attend. He needed to actively market himself as a back up candidate for Ron Paul. He needed to ask Steve Kubby supporters around the country to bring Steve Kubby campaign materials explaing that he’s a back up candidate for Ron Paul as well sign up sheets for his mailing list to Ron Paul Meet Up groups.

    If Steve’s campaign would have done the stuff that I just suggested I think that he would have been a lot more successful.

  79. Andy

    Thomas Knapp said: “IMO, it was way too much.”

    LOL! This is a prime example of why every campaign you’ve been involved with turned to shit.

  80. Andy

    Anyone who does not recognize the fact that the people who got active in the Ron Paul r3VOLution are THE PRIME TARGET that the Libertarian Party needs to bring in is either a clueless fool or a plant.

  81. Michael Seebeck

    Paulie @6:

    Wayne said he has not announced any intention to run or formed an exploratory committee, so he does not want to be treated as a candidate for president at this time.

    Then Wayne is a liar, too, because he said so in an interview with Russia Times last year, and I’m the one who outed him on that–just like I did when he finally admitted he was running for LNC Chair. IIRC it was reported here as well.

  82. Michael Seebeck

    Wayne @31:

    “I’ve “earned my stripes.””

    Oh, bullshit. Just utter bullshit.

    Your stripes ain’t even the faded paint on Interstate 40 between Needles CA and Kingman AZ before they repaved it.

    Have you ever been a county officer? Been a state officer in TWO states? Lights of Liberty Triathlete even once? Ever done an Outreach Booth, Holiday Parade, PrideFest, or a Coffin Race representing the LP? Ever lobbied a legislature, written your own press release, or defeated a bond issue? Ever managed even one campaign for someone else?

    Ever given the WPSQ and signed up new members in a traffic jam between car windows?

    I’ve done that, you haven’t.

    All you do is media shill, sans the plaid jacket. Big deal.

    Frankly, Wayne, there a lot of activists and accomplished veteran LP members who have done far more in the LP that you, and you aren’t fit to carry their booth table.

    Check your ego at the door for once, roll up your sleeves, and so real grassroots work instead of self-promoting yourself at the LP’s expense.

  83. Michael Seebeck

    Wayne @36:

    “My views on Mosque at 9/11 turned out to be view of a majority of New Yorkers (in liberal NY) and a HUGE overwhelming majority of Americans. ”

    Real Libertarians do not sacrifice our principles of personal property rights and freedom of religion on the altar of populist rhetoric to the contrary.

  84. Michael Seebeck

    Marc @78:

    “The reason the LP hasn’t gotten there in 40 years is because LP leaders, opportunists, ‘reformers’, and others lose sight of the fact that this election is about the next election.”

    Partially true.

    The rest of is that the LP spends way too little time building a brand and name at the grassroots and way too much time looking for some “name” or “celebrity” candidate to make some sort of miraculous breakthrough that never happens, fulfilling Einstein’s definition of insanity. That also makes the job harder for those of us actually trying to build a viable political party out of the LP.

  85. paulie Post author

    George,

    I meant that you would not do what Andy and I suggest in several comments above that a 2012 candidate do, personally working within Ron Paul groups to present themselves as a Plan B. You get credit for having your supporters do it, though.

  86. Thomas L. Knapp

    Andy @99,

    “This is a prime example of why every campaign you’ve been involved with turned to shit.”

    In order for A to be an example “why” B, B has to be a factual statement.

    Even setting aside the campaigns I’ve been involved with that resulted in actual election wins (more than one), that statement is clearly not factual even on the basis of statements you’ve made elsewhere.

  87. paulie Post author

    Seebeck slumming at IPR? :-)

    Then Wayne is a liar, too, because he said so in an interview with Russia Times last year

    Maybe he changed his mind?

  88. paulie Post author

    Have you ever been a county officer? Been a state officer in TWO states? Lights of Liberty Triathlete even once? Ever done an Outreach Booth, Holiday Parade, PrideFest, or a Coffin Race representing the LP? Ever lobbied a legislature, written your own press release, or defeated a bond issue? Ever managed even one campaign for someone else?

    I know Wayne’s done a pridefest. Dunno about the other stuff.

  89. paulie Post author

    way too little time building a brand and name at the grassroots and way too much time looking for some “name” or “celebrity” candidate to make some sort of miraculous breakthrough that never happens

    Waiting for manna from heaven is easier than work.

  90. Andy

    Tom Knapp said in reference to Steve Kubby’s endorsement of Ron Paul: “If anything, it cost him points with the libertarian wing of the LP.”

    This is a completely ABSURD statement that shows just how out of touch with reality Tom Knapp is. The libertarian wing of the Libertarian Party was supporting Ron Paul! DUH! Mary Ruwart endorsed Ron Paul. David Nolan (RIP) endorsed Ron Paul. David Bergland endorsed Ron Paul. Ernie Hancock endorsed Ron Paul. There were hardcore Libertarians who worked on Ron Paul’s campaign all over the country. I attended a bunch of Ron Paul meetings in several states and I met hardcore Libertarian Party members at every one of them.

  91. Thomas L. Knapp

    Andy @ 110,

    Fair cop. You’re right and I was wrong in that statement.

    Much of the libertarian wing of the Libertarian Party did support Paul, and probably will do so again if he runs again.

    They’re welcome to him.

  92. Andy

    “Thomas L. Knapp // Mar 17, 2011 at 12:19 am

    Andy @ 110,

    Fair cop. You’re right and I was wrong in that statement.”

    All right! Maybe there’s hope for you yet.:)

    “Much of the libertarian wing of the Libertarian Party did support Paul, and probably will do so again if he runs again.

    They’re welcome to him.”

    Yes, and smart Libertarian Party candidates will get on top of that Ron Paul r3VOLution wave and ride it as far as they can.

    I’ve been to many Ron Paul Meets Ups and Campaign for Liberty meetings and I’ve spoken to numerous people who supported Ron Paul in 2007-2008. These people are RIPE PICKING for the Libertarian Party. Ron Paul attracted a very diverse group of activists. The overwellming majority of these people are open to the Libertarian Party. The Libertarian Party could grow quite a bit if we could bring these people into the party. The main reasons that they aren’t flooding into the party in droves are as follows:

    1) They didn’t like Bob Barr as the Libertarian Party’s candidate for President.

    2) They perceived the Libertarian Party as being less than relavent.

    3) The Libertarian Party has done an overall lousy job at reaching out to these people and recruiting them into the party.

    #3 is something that we can change. If we can recruit more of these people into the party, the party will be bigger and will be able to raise more money, then perhaps we can start to change #2, and the more we change #2, the more people we can bring into the party. As for #1, hopefully we will get a better candidate for 2012 that understands this stuff and who will ride the Ron Paul r3VOLution wave and bring a lot of these people into the party.

  93. Robert Capozzi

    mm83, Duke was obviously just an example. Actually Redpath told me a story about how he happened to be on a flight with Duke to DC years ago, and they chatted a bit. A few days later, Duke was giving a TV interview and said that he was a L! Arggh!

    Giving the nomination to a philosophical L based solely on how many new recruits he/she recruited prior to the convention seems to be a novel idea. I have no position on your idea, but it seems hard to measure. Root, if he runs, might have a huge advantage compared with the rest of the field, given his media reach.

    Ability to personally recruit members seems like a consideration, but the ONLY consideration? Not seeing it at the moment….

  94. Robert Capozzi

    mm81: [Capozzi] does that with everyone who doesn’t accept his purity-police vision for the LP.

    me: Have I really given you the impression that I favor “purity policing”? I can’t think of anyone who is less that way than myself! My dogma is no dogma!

  95. Andy

    Robert Capozzi // Mar 17, 2011 at 6:32 am

    “mm83, Duke was obviously just an example. Actually Redpath told me a story about how he happened to be on a flight with Duke to DC years ago, and they chatted a bit.”

    Isn’t there a person who posts here who also claims to have sat next to David Duke on a flight back in the ’80s?

    “A few days later, Duke was giving a TV interview and said that he was a L! Arggh!”

    Quite a few people who are not libertarians have claimed to be. Bill Maher comes to mind.

    The only way David Duke could be a libertarian would be if he rejected the initiation of force and fraud to achieve his goals. I doubt that he’d really do this, but I’m just saying that theoretically he could still hold his beliefs and work to achieve them on a voluntary basis. A person can hold any kind of views which others find offensive just as long as they don’t initiate force or fraud. I don’t think that David Duke is a libertarian, and I doubt that he’ll ever be, and I wouldn’t recommend trying to recruit him for obvious reasons, I’m just making a point about how one can hold views which others find offensive and still be a libertarian if they don’t initiate force or fraud.

  96. Robert Capozzi

    a, yes, he could take the pledge and be a L. I think that in and of itself tells me that this sort of quasi-religious-rite witnessing approach to who is L and who isn’t is ridiculous. From ridiculous premises come absurd outcomes.

    IMO, the pledge is an empty symbol.

    Duke or Sharpton or Farakhan or Maher could SAY they are a L, but I would not support them. Sharpton or Maher, if they had a profound change of heart, might be folks I could support. Haters need not apply. I’d certainly encourage Duke or Farakhan to rethink their hate, but at this stage, they are probably too notorious to gain my support for office.

    I don’t “reject” the initiation of force per se, as it’s a fact, one that the world is built on it. I do want to minimize it, with consideration for eliminating it if possible. I do support laws against murder, for ex., and I do support legal infrastructure to police and dissuade it, at least until Acme Insurance, WMD and Meter Maids, Inc., is prepared to shoulder the effort! ;-)

  97. Steven Wilson

    The issue with Barr was that everyone except Libertarians knew that it was a ploy to get attention. Barr was a name once, albeit, very small and insignificant. A moral police in a immoral town.

    If Root gets the nod, it will be the same thing. Attention is just attention. Ron Paul is a horrible public speaker. His cadence and pronounciation are weak and lack drama as public speaking goes. But what is his message?

    Who listens when he speaks?

    Ballot access is worthless when the candidate is a fool. Root is Amway. What do you get when you shop at Amway?

    Libertarians won’t admit they have no leadership worth following. Libertarians are in denial.

    The LNC showers in it’s own feces. You won’t admit as to why you smell.

  98. Robert Capozzi

    sw117: The LNC showers in it’s own feces.

    me: Charming. Dale Carnegie has nothing on you! ;-)

  99. Alan Pyeatt

    Post of the Thread: Mike Seebeck @ 102 by a nose over MarcMontoni @ 78. The line about the “faded paint on Interstate 40 between Needles CA and Kingman AZ” made me literally LOL!

    We will never get conservative votes by positioning our party as “Republican Light.” They’ll simply join the Tea Parties and vote Republican. We have to DIFFERENTIATE our brand from the other parties to give people a reason to vote for us. As a long-time activist mentioned to me at the February LP of Los Angeles County meeting, our RADICALISM is our strength!

    Actually, the fact that David Duke, Bill Maher, and others may actually be a good sign for us. It brings some problems of course, because we have to distance ourselves from them. But it also indicates:
    1. Unlike 20 years ago, our brand at least has some name recognition.
    2. We have the default brand name for those people who are disaffected by the other parties.

    That’s not exactly the success we want, but it’s better than the Greens or Peace & Freedom being the default. Now we have to capitalize on the opportunity that gives us, and protect our movement from the threat of being associated with interventionists.

  100. Steven Wilson

    The purpose of the images were more than for effect. I am sick of hearing Libertarians talk about media as if it means something other than media.

    You trade integrity for what? A name…A brand.

    And Libertarians complain when we don’t get taken seriously until every other party fails.

    Harry Browne’s election night numbers were never big, but at least his numbers indicated people who voted for substance.

  101. Robert Capozzi

    sw: Harry Browne’s election night numbers were never big, but at least his numbers indicated people who voted for substance.

    me: Huh? How can you draw qualitative conclusions about how voter’s voted from quantitative numbers? I voted for Barr, for ex., for substantive reasons.

  102. JT

    By “substance,” I think he meant clear libertarian proposals, Robert. I can’t say that for sure though.

  103. Andy

    “Robert Capozzi // Mar 17, 2011 at 7:29 pm

    ‘sw: Harry Browne’s election night numbers were never big, but at least his numbers indicated people who voted for substance.’

    me: Huh? How can you draw qualitative conclusions about how voter’s voted from quantitative numbers? I voted for Barr, for ex., for substantive reasons.”

    Harry Browne’s vote total in 1996 was the 2nd best vote total in terms of percentage of the vote in the history of Libertarian Party candidate for President.

    I think that the best things that came out of Harry Browne’s campaigns was that he did bring in quite a few new members to the party and a lot of those members went on to become hardcore libertarian activists.

  104. Roger Gary

    Hello all,

    Yes I have been reading all the posts.

    And there were two questions I remember.

    Is that me on the dating site? Yes and there are about 40 more meetup groups. Politics and life are all about networking. And yes I am heavily involved in network marketing.

    Another question was how do Lee and I differ in philosophy.
    I have found no major differences at this point. We do differ on our strategies. I have always been primarily interested in the local level. I did run for LNC vice chair once and came very close to being elected. It was a tie on the first ballot.

    I am always happy to answer any questions, but it may take me a few days to answer. My schedule seems to be getting packed.

  105. Pingback: Meet LP Presidential Candidate Roger Gary! <

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