Libertarian Presidential Convention Will be May 4-6, 2012, in Las Vegas

Ballot Access News reports:

The Libertarian Party 2012 presidential convention will be in Las Vegas, May 4-6, 2012.  This is the earliest the Libertarian presidential convention has been since the 1992 presidential election, when the national convention was in September 1991.  The latest Libertarian presidential convention was in 1996, and was in early July.

The 2012 date and location were chosen by the Libertarian national committee on November 21.

The two major parties recently have been holding their presidential conventions in early September of the election year.

No political party has previously held its presidential convention in Las Vegas.  Other cities that bid for the 2012 convention were San Francisco and Dallas, with a last-minute proposal for Ontario, California.

http://www.ballot-access.org/2010/11/21/libertarian-presidential-convention-will-be-may-4-6-2012-in-las-vegas/

209 thoughts on “Libertarian Presidential Convention Will be May 4-6, 2012, in Las Vegas

  1. Aaron Starr

    The problem with much earlier during 2012 is that it would interfere with many state affiliate conventions.

  2. Robert Capozzi

    gp: And only a $50 cab ride from the local airport.

    me: C’mon, George, you know by now that Ls only take limos! ;-)

  3. Thomas L. Knapp

    Look on the bright side:

    At least the LNC announced early that the Libertarian Party isn’t serious about a 2012 presidential campaign.

    That gives other parties plenty of time to take the initiative and fill the nine-month vacuum between when the LP should have nominated and when it will nominate with a real alternative.

  4. George Phillies

    @7

    Pray tell, which of the LNCs many brilliant — in some sense — decisions are you referring to when you say ‘isn’t serious’?

    By the way, the Lee Wrights EXPLORATORY Committee announced their campaign exploration team. It is up on GoldAmericaGroup, which Pauli et al are welcome to reprint as an article.

  5. Robert Capozzi

    “Lee plans on an automobile and Motel Six Campaign, not a penthouse suite hotel, limousine, and caviar campaign.”

    Comforting. I may have to hold out for a pup tent, Valderi, Valdera, kinda campaign, though. Tonally preferable.

  6. Robert Capozzi

    as: The problem with much earlier during 2012 is that it would interfere with many state affiliate conventions.

    g. washington: The problem with crossing the Delaware is that there’s still ice in it. Can’t we wait a few months? ;-)

  7. Thomas L. Knapp

    Aaron,

    If the LNC announces the convention date early enough, then the state LPs can work up their convention schedules to fit.

    A good rule of thumb — not necessarily for city/venue, but for date — would be four years out. When a new LNC meets for the first time at the end of a convention, let it set a date for convention-after-next, to be changed only in extremis. That gives state LPs 2-3 years to figure out when they want to have their delegate selection conventions.

  8. Thomas L. Knapp

    Darryl,

    It might work.

    If I’m not mistaken, it was Aaron’s associates on the LNC who suggested at the last LNC meeting that the 2014 convention city should also be chosen ASAP, so I don’t think “scheduling farther out” is something likely to be viewed as an inherently tendentious proposal.

    As far as early nominating conventions are concerned, they’re not a panacea, there are down sides as well as up sides, and correlation does not necessarily equal causation, but of the top three performing presidential campaigns as a percentage of vote (Clark ’80, Paul ’88 and Browne ’96), two were nominated in the fall of the year before the election and the third assumed the role of “nominee apparent” for at least that far in advance.

  9. Darryl W. Perry

    @Tom – you seem to have missed the last half of my comment… “it makes sense”!

    I completely agree, I think having the nominee chosen 1 yr before the election is brilliant.

  10. Robert Capozzi

    gp: And only a $50 cab ride from the local airport.

    sf: The hotel has a free airport shuttle.

    me: Great lesson in the practice of half truths. A “fact” may be factual, but it doesn’t make it true in the larger picture.

  11. Tom Blanton

    Is it true that in order to be credentialed, delegates must first attend a 3 hour seminar conducted by Wayne Root on joining the life-altering Wealth Masters International, a multi-level marketing program that sells courses on wealth management and financial success?

    Or is this just a vicious rumor started by evil radical anarchists that hate America, Wayne Allyn Root and all that he stands for?

    http://www.workathomebizreviews.com/wealth-masters-international.html

  12. Michael H. Wilson

    I had hoped that we could get actor Leslie Nielsen to run for office but he passed away today. We’d use his character in the “Naked Gun” as something to take off on and call the campaign “The Naked Candidate”. Something like the Emperor has no clothes routine and build from there.

    Ya think maybe we could get someone else to run with this idea as a fill in? Who would that be?

  13. buck turgidson

    George Phillies knew that there a free shuttle from the airport. The Professor makes it a point to know all of the details. This is just example of his campaign of misinformation.

    Imagine the uproar if Wayne Allyn Root tried to do the same deception.

    There no double standard in The LP.

  14. Michael H. Wilson

    So what if I arrive by train, or Greyhound? Can I hitchhike?

    I think we need to prepare to check the birth certificate of anyone nominated and not just any old birth certificate that you can print off the Intertubes.

  15. Erik G.

    @18:

    The way I see it, having it in Vegas (though my preference was Dallas) could actually make it far more fun to see WAR fall on his face. There’s no better way to tell someone “sayonara!” than to humiliate them in front of their friends and family.

  16. Erik G.

    Also, there’s a possibility that I’ll drive to Vegas from Denver (we’ll see what airport security is like in 2012), so I may be available to give rides to folks as well.

  17. Chuck Moulton

    Robert Capozzi wrote (@19):

    gp: And only a $50 cab ride from the local airport.

    sf: The hotel has a free airport shuttle.

    me: Great lesson in the practice of half truths. A “fact” may be factual, but it doesn’t make it true in the larger picture.

    Some prominent members of the party make a habit of deliberately leaving people with the wrong impression while technically telling the truth.

  18. Tom Blanton

    buck has it right!

    If Wayne had pretended he didn’t know about the free shuttle service, the damned liberals would be in the streets protesting with signs and the mainstream liberal media would be giving them 24/7 coverage.

    Lesbian feminazis with hairy armpits would be making accusations that Wayne had raped them. Obama would be on TV claiming that Root never went to Columbia University.

    Wayne could never get away with saying anything that isn’t 100% true or else the liberals would be screaming bloody murder. George Soros would start up some new socialist group like DestroyRootNow.Org and spend $20 million to drag poor Wayne through the mud.

    buck has it exactly right!

  19. Robert Milnes

    Rightists Rule!
    The LP.
    Root’s nomination is virtually a done deal.
    The LP is the only party other than dems & reps to reliably get enough ballot access to theoretically win.
    A very few independents manage it. e.g. Nader 2008.
    GP short & spotty-unreliable.
    CP COULD do it.
    BTP…………..COULD…….& if they nominate a fusion ticket they could win.
    BTP>PLAS-2012 victory!

  20. Thomas L. Knapp

    “Root’s nomination is virtually a done deal.”

    Care to make a small wager on that?

    I predict that Wayne Allyn Root will not be the Libertarian Party’s 2012 presidential nominee.

  21. Jill Pyeatt

    “Root’s nomination is virtually a done deal.”

    I agree with Thomas Knapp that it isn’t at all a done deal. WAR wasn’t made chair, possibly because he seems to have no interest in listening to the half of the party he’s alienated. We have time before the 2012 convention to bring aboard new members, as long as we have a chance to explain that what Wayne says isn’t always what we believe.

  22. Michael H. Wilson

    Btw 23 try using the names of different characters from the movie. Like Jack D. Ripper once in awhile.

  23. Thomas L. Knapp

    Thane,

    No snark intended. I’m just making a prediction based on my assessment of the trend.

    I don’t have a lot of money, and I never bet money that I can’t afford to lose, but if anyone is interested in putting money on Root outperforming an as-yet-unknown field for the LP’s 2012 nomination, that looks like an opportunity to me. I’d probably even give them odds.

  24. George Phillies

    @23

    Readers might recall that the cab fare from ST Louis Airport to the St Louis Hotel was not much less.

    Those of you who are interested in the free shuttle might look carefully at the schedule that is usually mentioned at the same time the ‘free ‘ is mentioned. That’s why I didn’t bother to bring it up.

    For those of you who might have wanted to see the rest of Las Vegas, which I agree may well pall rather quickly, you should reflect on the cost of getting there from the convention hotel. It’s related to the cab fare issue.

  25. Robert Milnes

    Tom, Root is being backed by very powerful forces, whether he realizes it or not.
    The government, for one. &that’s enough for me.
    Just like Barr in 2008. Theobject is to keep ther LP’s possibilities in check. Doesn’t matter who the schmuck is.

  26. Robert Capozzi

    hmm, it looks like the shuttle is every 2 hrs starting at 8am…not great, not awful, IMO…a 30-40m ride, if I’m reading this correctly.

    Sin of omission? Up to others…

    Perhaps Bob Barr can offer a limo service every other hour ;-)

    Or folks can kill a bit of time playing draw poker at McCarran.

    As for Root’s odds, who knows? I’m still hoping he gets a late-night show on Fox which pays well and is reasonably satisfying.

    - I’m now liking Penny/Cuban, going against Romney and Hillary. Obama decides not to run for “family reasons.” The Euro collapses. The dollar all but collapses, but Bernake’s proposal to take the $1 out of circulation works, at least for a while.

    - War breaks out between India and Pakistan, a demonstration nuke is used, but the damages are reasonably contained. The ground war makes Vietnam look like a day in the park.

    - Palin doesn’t run, Huckabee tries to assume darling of the right mantle, but in the end, it’s Romney’s turn. Ron Paul starts to seek the GOP nod, but he is still being dogged about NewsletterGate, with he and Rockwell still unable to come up with a credible cover story. Americans Elect fizzles without Mayor Mike’s money. Several states go into receivership, including CA, although the feds broker a deal to make it technically not receivership. Boehner accedes and loses the Speakership because he is caught on camera being paid off. Several technology breakthroughs happen, such as algae-energy-applications and nano-tech batteries that fuel the beginnings of a boom.

    - Hillary wins, having honed Clintonesque misdirection techniques beyond even Bill’s. Romney is still too stiff…cannot connect with the flyover states in the Midwest. His advisors had counseled yoga, but he declined.

    - Root remains engaged in the LP (although not in an official capacity, per his Fox contract), as he realizes that college expenses are just too much, but he makes noises that he’s still mulling over 2016.

    - Penny/Cuban is a last-minute brokered entry, with Penny getting the nomination when he agrees to stay at Red Roof Inns “when available” during the campaign. He agrees to never take a limo UNLESS Cuban pays out of his pocket. The Malcontent Caucus protests when Penny will not endorse the right to polygamy and bestiality, but cooler heads prevail. Penny cites Walter Block’s paper on why private nuclear weapons are not a right, staving off another attempt to discredit his L street cred. Penny does extraordinarily well for a while, poised to breakthrough into a Perot-type showing. Cuban makes an off-color joke which damages the campaign, but the ticket still gets 3% of the vote, including second place in MN and DE, of all places. A MA L writes a book about the profligate use of paper clips at Penny/Cuban headquarters.

    - Through a series of serendipitous events, Travis Irvine is elected to Congress as the first L MC. He doesn’t cut his hair this time, but he does lose that high pony tail thing, which was so 2009, anyway.

  27. Gains

    JP @31:

    I don’t think that you will have to explain that Root does not represent you. Simply teach them what you do believe. The rest will work out itself. :)

  28. Sane LP member

    # 18 and # 19
    And it would not have been a similiar “coronation” of Lee Wrights, if the LP national convention was held in Texas. Texas delegation would be 60+ delegates. Nevada delegation would be 12 – 15 delegates. Get a grip.

  29. Kevin Knedler

    Yes to the comment about working ahead. The motion passed. The LNC will be deciding the 2014 LP national convention by August of 2011 (just less than 3 years ahead of time). As for 2016, it will be decided by May of 2012 (approx 4 years ahead of time). Most businesses and trade events are chosen at minimum 2 years ahead but 4 to 6 years out is not uncommon at all. Waiting too late, limits hotels and available dates.

  30. Robert Capozzi

    off point, but I hear from reliable sources that the alleged LPFL executive committee resolution to oust Root may have been a rogue, false operation, wishful thinking on one person’s part.

    If true, is anyone surprised? If true, does this give any pause to the Root haters?

    One can dream….

    IPR should consider a follow up.

  31. Thomas L. Knapp

    SLP@41,

    No, a Texas convention would not be a “coronation” for Wrights.

    Nor will a Vegas convention be a “coronation” for Root. As a matter of fact, he may do worse with a Vegas convention than he’d have done elsewhere.

  32. AroundtheblockAFT

    Too bad the convention couldn’t have been even earlier. President’s Day weekend would have been better and states could have worked out their state convention dates around it (how many of them plan conventions out even further ahead than does the national party?)

    Just how far away from, say, the Strip, is this place? Enough to be maximum inconvenience for everyone who wants to taste the thrills of Las Vegas over the chills of endless platcom debate?
    Are there cheaper eating alternatives and hotels in walking distance of the resort? Perhaps the best deal will be to rent a car for a week so one can get around a bit, see Hoover Dam, visit the Grand Canyon.

  33. Thirty Mile Zone

    15 miles to the strip, 15 miles back.

    No free shuttle to greyhound, (? Amtrak? – does Vegas have Amtrak?) –

    No free shuttle if your plane comes in at night. And with frequent flight delays, who knows what time your plane gets in?

    Average wait time for free shuttle during the day: 1 hr

    Max: 2 hr

  34. Thirty Mile Zone

    RED ROCK to AIRPORT
    7am, 9am, 11am, 1pm, 3pm, 5pm, 7pm

    AIRPORT to RED ROCK
    8am, 10am, 12pm, 2pm, 4pm, 6pm, 8pm, 9pm

    Approx 30-40 minutes travel time

  35. Andy

    “No, a Texas convention would not be a ‘coronation’ for Wrights.

    Nor will a Vegas convention be a ‘coronation’ for Root. As a matter of fact, he may do worse with a Vegas convention than he’d have done elsewhere.”

    Uuugggg at the thought of either of these two being the LP Presidential candidate in 2012.

    I sure do hope that some better candidates emerge before then.

  36. Robert Capozzi

    tk: As a matter of fact, [Root] may do worse with a Vegas convention than he’d have done elsewhere.

    me: Why? Closer to CA and further from the midwest?

  37. JT

    Tom: “As far as early nominating conventions are concerned, they’re not a panacea, there are down sides as well as up sides, and correlation does not necessarily equal causation, but of the top three performing presidential campaigns as a percentage of vote (Clark ’80, Paul ’88 and Browne ’96), two were nominated in the fall of the year before the election and the third assumed the role of “nominee apparent” for at least that far in advance.”

    Yes, correlation doesn’t mean causation.

    It also doesn’t make much sense to me to point to the “top three performing presidential campaigns” when all of them received less than 1% of the vote. I consider that rather insignificant in any case and not worth measuring against each other.

    Of course, Clark did come pretty close to 1%, but he also spent a couple million dollars on TV ads (thanks to running mate David Koch). The others didn’t. I understand why this fact is often overlooked by Libertarians, but I think it’s the factor that best explains his showing, which still isn’t very impressive.

    Tom: “No, a Texas convention would not be a “coronation” for Wrights.

    Nor will a Vegas convention be a “coronation” for Root. As a matter of fact, he may do worse with a Vegas convention than he’d have done elsewhere.”

    Agreed. A convention in Vegas doesn’t guarantee anybody anything. I wouldn’t ascribe any suspicious motives to it either.

  38. Robert Capozzi

    cm27: Some prominent members of the party make a habit of deliberately leaving people with the wrong impression while technically telling the truth.

    me: Yes. I’d say most people do something like this at least occasionally. Some seem to do it reflexively and constantly, to the point that one needs to double check pretty much everything they say. When they get caught in deception, they compound the deception with MORE deception. For reference, check 3, 19, 37 and 47. Is it just me, or is a strong pattern emerging?

    For an even BIGGER deception from another source, if 43 is correct, that to me illustrates really counter-productive intra-L false flag operation if ever there were one. The alleged LP FL “resolution” set in train a series of events that created profound levels of completely unnecessary teeth-gnashing.

    Just sayin’…

  39. Thomas L. Knapp

    Bob@49,

    Presumably Root thinks that proximity to California will help, not hurt, him.

    A Vegas convention may backfire on Root because:

    1) The perception of an attempted coronation tends to violate the laws of physics and create a more than equal opposite reaction.

    That was probably 75% of what cost Gary Nolan the 2004 nomination. It was a big factor in turning Denver into a multi-ballot marathon in 2008. Even in 2000, it was a huge factor in holding Browne to 56% even after a previous nomination and with the entire national party machinery effectively acting as part of his campaign for six years.

    2) When you’re a polarizing figure — and Root is, and not just in politics — the place where you’re most popular is also likely to be the place where you’re most un-popular. The convention venue is right down the street from his house and his office … and right down the street from the houses and offices of any number of people who’d like to take him down a notch and might be willing to spend a weekend and a few bucks to do it.

    My guess is that Vegas has a higher concentration of disgruntled former Root customers, employers and stockholders than most other cities.

    It might be possible to get Culinary Workers Local 226, the local IWW General Membership Branch, etc., out to lobby the LP to not abandon its tradition neutrality on labor matters by nominating a candidate who has publicly advocated outlawing union membership for some workers.

    And so on, and so forth.

    Even absent that, though, I just don’t see Root winning the nomination. In my opinion, he is less popular in the LP now than he was in mid-2010, when he couldn’t win the chairmanship of the LP, and less popular in mid-2010 than he was in mid-2008, when he couldn’t win the presidential nomination and wouldn’t have even absent Barr. That’s a trend, and one I expect to continue evolving in the same direction.

  40. Robert Capozzi

    tk, could be. If my sources are correct and the FL “resolution” was a fabrication, that might create sympathy for Root. It’s one thing to be falsely accused, another to be falsely accused in a unauthorized scam.

  41. Gains

    TK @53:

    I would add one more weakness for Root in having the convention in Las Vegas:

    3. The California delegation will likely fill itself in 2012 (for the first time in a long time if it ever has). Root will not have his pet delegation to seat his people.

  42. Thomas L. Knapp

    Gains,

    I suspect you are correct that California will fill its delegation, as Vegas is a reasonable drive from most California metros — four hours from LA, 9 1/2 from San Francisco if you observe the speed limit, and I’ve never seen anyone observe the speed limit in Death Valley area.

    On the other hand, I expect that Root will do fairly well among California delegates, as he’s invested significant effort in engaging the California LP.

    Any “packing” efforts would presumably involve getting Californians, etc. to Vegas and putting them in delegations from states with friendly delegation leadership that have vacancies (Indiana and Ohio seem most likely). But I generally discount the efficacy of “packing.” Doing it right would be an expensive and complex operation with low likelihood of success.

  43. JT

    New Federalist: “JT- Ed Clark actually did poll over 1% of the popular vote.”

    You’re right. He barely did–so I guess that’s barely significant. I was thinking of getting a million votes, which he fell shy of. I still think his getting 1% of the vote was likely due to having a couple million dollars specifically for TV ads.

  44. Be Rational

    Wayne Root has not announced that he will seek the LP nomination in 2012. It is unlikely that he could win the nomination if there are any decent alternatives, although, so far, there are no impressive alternative candidates.

    It also isn’t clear that running for President is in the best interests of Wayne Root. He could use the Las Vegas convention to kick off a campaign for a lesser office inside Nevada, or to build his credentials as a commentator and spokesperson for the libertarian viewpoint as he sees it and get more media attention and earnings.

    I expect Wayne Root will use the “will he run” question to his advantage as long as possible to keep himself interesting and on the air … and then switch to being a potential 2016 LP presidential candidate, preferring to wait until the LP is bigger and better financed before launching a serious campaign that can win.

    I hope he runs for US House, Senate or Governor before 2016, so he can show what kind of candidate he will actually be.

    Capozzi … you have quite a crystal ball @39 … where can I get one like it … and who is “Cuban?”

  45. Just Sayin'

    Mr Capozzi is correct. Ms Kirkland, FL chair, told several people in New Orleans that the Florida LP just authorized Karl Dickey to write a resolution, but did not ever look at or approve the text until after he already published it as if it were the resolution that had been passed. At least two IPR writers were present when she said this.

  46. Robert Capozzi

    br58, Mark Cuban, owner of the Dallas Mavs and other properties. Loaded. L-leaning. Probably not up on the finer points of the “NAP” and highly unlikely to buy them if he does. No doubt he holds a few positions that will surely infuriate the Malcontent Caucus, but near as I can tell, breathing seems to qualify for attracting their venom.

    I don’t throw those out as “predictions,” but possible scenarios with a few asides thrown in for levity. Sharing the fun of a visualization exercise, is all.

  47. Gains

    TK @56:

    Unfortunately for Root, I don’t think that his reputation with the delegates is that strong. He has seated national delegates through Ca. in the past but I believe that that was through influence with the OpCom which was authorized to fill empty delegation seats.

    Rumor on the street is that California’s Convention in 2011 is being moved (quietly) out of California into Roots neck of the woods. The California OpCom may be voted on in a location far away from population (and membership) concentrations.

  48. MMP James Ogle [Free Parliamentary]

    “Libertarian Presidential Convention Will be May 4-6, 2012, in Las Vegas”

    …and what about the ~98% of the voters who did not vote Libertarian Party in 2008. Are there any LPs interested in addressing this issue?

    Is this a repeat of 2008?

    Well The USA Parliament, Inc. is designed to specifically address that issue.

    And after fifteen years, we’re moving at such a slow pave that it’s equivalent to being 0600 hours on Normandy Beach, and “Battle of the Bulge” is 150,000 years in the future.

    It’s pretty doubtful that one (or two) persons are going to run up to the “two-party system bunker” and take the bunker out by themselves.

    I’m talking about a coordinated assault from not just one team of 100, but four teams of 100. Each with elected “bunker specialists”, the five executives (three prime ministers and two secretaries) and Cabinet members.

    Today, 2500 “soldiers” are going to meet their fates, making the ultimate sacrifice.

    And what are you doing to coordinate? The USA Parliament, Inc. has the team and the team has the elected “bunker specialists”. We need your name in coordination, today!

    Are you working with a democratically legitimate team, or are you doing something else in this comedy or errors?

    A few jokes are OK, but let’s not forget about the task at hand. The future, the good of the all, depends on every single unit – the more the better!
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    opposite gender #1!

    Free Ireland!

    “Why do you THINK they called it Google?”

    See the ad “Nott/Moore/W.A.R. for Prez/VP in 2012?, a coalition for Libertarian Party females on the USA Parliament’s web page; http://www.usparliament.org/

    (For Libertarian Party males; “A Female/Nott/Moore/W.A.R. in for Prez/VP 2012”)
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  49. Thomas L. Knapp

    “Wayne Root has not announced that he will seek the LP nomination in 2012.”

    Actually he has, informally, more than once. But yes, he’s working both sides of the “will he run?” street pretty heavily, and might very well end up not in the running by convention time.

    In deciding whether or not I was willing to bet that he won’t be the nominee, I gave that possibility about 10% weight. The other 90% is that if he does run, he’ll almost certainly get beat like a red-headed stepchild by any of several possible opponents.

  50. Robert Capozzi

    tk, you’re close to Wrights, as I recall. Tell us more about this: “Lee plans on an automobile and Motel Six Campaign, not a penthouse suite hotel, limousine, and caviar campaign.”

    If Wrights runs, will his be a form-over-content affair? While we never got details on Barr’s “limo services” line item, did they stay in penthouse suites and shovel the Beluga like it was going out of style, too? Any insight on Lee’s favorite roadtrip nosh?

  51. Michael H. Wilson

    re Kevin @ 42 that is the best news I’ve seen out of national since Wes got the nod as the big dog.

    Now the LNC might get a chance to focus on ballot access and fund raising, etc.

  52. Be Rational

    @67

    Agreed. Convention dates and locations should be set 4 years out so everone can plan. And LNC should focus on ballot access, training, fundraising, building membership, building state and local parties, and financing ballot access campaigns.

    Kevin Knedler is poviding some long needed professional leadership as well, in Ohio and on the LNC.

  53. RedPhillips

    As I recall, the Constitution Party moved their convention up to the year before the election one cycle. The thought was that the nominee would have more time to campaign and get his name on the ballot. Some states require a specific name for ballot access which isn’t known until the nominating convention.

    My sense is that this didn’t work out well and was generally viewed as a failure. The problem is that these things have a natural news and interest cycle. And nominating your candidate a year out ends up being anti-climatic (especially if the nominee is not a “big name”) and happens at a time when people just aren’t following these things. People are following the major parties’ nomination battles, so there is no chance to capitalize on “The Republican Party has abandoned you” type sentiments among disgruntled conservatives. (Speaking from a CP standpoint.)

    While the LP isnt moving their convention to the year before, my point is that there are drawbacks to moving it back too much. There is probably an ideal medium. Not too early so that people aren’t paying attention, but not so late that your nominee has insufficient time to campaign and get on ballots. My guess would be around the time that the major party nominees are being settled. (Esp. for an open seat when both major parties are contesting.)

    If Trent or Gary or anyone has a better recollection of the CP convention I am referring to or inside information on whether it was viewed as a success, please chime in.

  54. Robert Capozzi

    red, great feedback. And I was and am a Prez Day convention advocate, so in that sense we agree.

    The biggest difference (I think) in this analogy is that the CP doesn’t typically shoot for the high 40 to 50 on ballot access. A Sept nomination gives plenty of time to line up the (most challenging to get on the ballot) ducks.

    From a media perspective, a prior-year nomination is sub-optimal, I agree.

    There’s probably a case for a variety of dates, each with puts and takes. Seems we have some time ’til the one that counts — 2016 — is set. Early May’ll have to be worked with this cycle.

  55. RedPhillips

    With some review, I believe the 2000 CP ticket of Phillips/Sobran (later Curtis Frazier) was nominated in 1999. I may be “misremembering” and the nominating convention was very early in 2000. I’m trying to find out but the details are proving elusive.

  56. Laura

    I would be nice if next time someone considered the importance of getting students to attend. The higher the costs the less likely we can afford the convention

  57. Robert Capozzi

    Laura, is price the only consideration for student participation, would you say? What would the ideal student-friendly convention look like?

  58. Stewart Flood

    @46 — wrong. The Red Rock has already assured us (and it will certainly be in the contract) that they will add extra shuttle service to the airport for us.

    Why is everyone hung up on shuttles? There were NO FREE SHUTTLES in ANY OTHER CITY THAT WE REVIEWED OTHER THAN SAN FRANCISCO.

    Root never said there is no free shuttle, in fact he could be heard during the meeting saying there was. The COC never said there was no free shuttle, and in fact Ms Mattson repeated this fact during the LNC meeting. Only a certain person on this discussion ever tried to insinuate ($50 cab???) that there would be no free shuttle.

    Yes, a two hour wait is not good. That is why IN THEIR BID the hotel said that they would make temporary changes for our group.

    To the other costs…we’ll have something posted sometime soon. Post LNC meeting week is always busy, especially when it is a holiday week (as last week was).

    One VERY specific fact about ALL THREE of our “finalists”: their room rates were all less than St Louis.

    Back to work…too much to do…too little time…

  59. Robert Capozzi

    sf: Why is everyone hung up on shuttles?

    me: Everyone isn’t. We’re doing an truth intervention for Dr. Phillies. We all have our blind spots, but his is to complain over (what turns out to be false) minutiae, which would seem to be a small matter to fix. Somehow it doesn’t work out that way. When presented with relevant facts, his pattern is to change the subject, deflect or avoid. It would be easy for him to just admit he made a small mistake and move on, yet he persists. This is tragic, since he’s obviously very bright and often offers excellent political insight and many other fine qualities.

    I’m concerned that if the hotel ups the shuttle service to hourly, he’ll complain it should be on the half hour, then every 15 minutes. The malcontentedness seems endless.

    Pity.

  60. Thomas M. Sipos

    Gains: “Rumor on the street is that California’s Convention in 2011 is being moved (quietly) out of California into Roots neck of the woods. “

    Unless they’ve changed the bylaws (or whatever rules apply), LPC conventions must be held in California.

    “The California OpCom may be voted on in a location far away from population (and membership) concentrations.”

    The 2011 LPC convention must be somewhere in northern California. LPC rules (or is it a mere custom?) are that the state conventions alternate between southern and northern California.

    In 2010 it was in Long Beach, so the 2011 convention must be in northern California.

    This is one reason so many LPC members were incensed by Aaron Starr’s 2006 cruise convention. It violated the spirit, and possibly the letter, of this rule. Though the Judicial Committee may have disagreed.

  61. Stewart Flood

    Robert,

    Sorry if I misinterpreted the thread. It is very important that we not have a lot of misinformation spread around and stick to the the facts related to the convention.

    On the political side: I certainly agree with those that say that Dallas would not be a coronation for Mr Wrights and that Vegas would not be a coronation for Mr Root. Home field advantage can certainly help in a large state like Texas, but it is no guarantee of victory. Nevada is too small a delegation to do anything other than hurt Mr Root’s chances.

    But that is assuming that Wayne Root is a candidate in 2012. Wayne obviously likes to float lots of balloons and he was clearly pleased to be called a front-runner in an article, but we all know that unlike the Rinos and Donkeys’ parties this is way to early in the game to even know who the candidates will be.

    I’m not saying this as a cop-out or as cover for some “secret plan” to run Wayne Root for the nomination. Being on the LNC, I will choose to not be involved directly or indirectly in any candidate’s campaign. I’m more concerned with getting the party ready for WHOEVER our candidate is.

    We need 51 active and viable affiliates, all ready to hit the ground to support whoever we nominate the first week of May, 2012. We need 51 energized affiliates, all motivated to work their [bleeps] off doing everything they are able to do to help all of their candidates, from non-partisan races up to our presidential/vice-presidential nominees.

    Without that support mechanism, it doesn’t matter who we run. We won’t have a perfect system, but we need to be an order of magnitude better than 2008. That is certain achievable.

  62. Gains

    TS @78:

    http://ca.lp.org/convention/

    The California ExCom voted for a Sacramento location for the convention over a few others in the same city. A few days later it was scrubbed for a proposal that was not even presented to them in a different state… with a dual convention with Nevada being negotiated.

    Tahoe had been rejected as a location for the Ca convention twice before. At one point there was talk of switching the 2010 convention to there also though it would not have been in So Cal.

  63. Robert Capozzi

    sf79: Without that support mechanism [the LP as an institution], it doesn’t matter who we run.

    me: Amen! We have just witnessed two very disturbing, apparently malicious attempts to — in a childish, easily-seen-through ways — rip any shred of a functioning political party through appears to be deliberate deception. This was done by two party leaders, or at least by people who seem to position themselves as leaders.

    One apparently unilaterally fabricated a resolution to oust a sitting member of the LNC and chair of the LNCC. He announced this to the LP and LM here on IPR with the apparent sole purpose of creating misdirection and confusion among allegedly like-minded adults. It’s one thing to disagree; it’s one thing to assert that someone else is not fit to serve as an official of the LP; it’s another, completely unacceptable thing to do so with in a scurrilous, mendacious, deceitful manner. I’m sorry, but if I have this situation fairly and accurately understood, this sort of toxic behavior cannot go unchallenged — forcefully so.

    In what appears to be a “minor” matter, we have another leader who first puts out irrefutably false information about the convention logistics, then attempts to hide behind his transmission of false information by claiming it wasn’t somehow germane that he did so. His double deception is then made even more absurd and untenable when we find out that special arrangements are in the works to make convention attendance even easier.

    If it’s acceptable to trade in ill will, fabrication, and amateur misdirection, then we surely get what we deserve!

    To which I say: Bullshit! This garbage stops, and it stops now.

    I cannot know what these two individuals seek as ends, but their means are repulsive to me. If chaos is what they seek, they have succeeded.

  64. Shuttle Cock

    @76

    Thanks for the update.

    The reason people veered into the shuttle question was that it was brought up that a cab from the airport is about 50 clams.

    Hope somebody sets up ride and room sharing board.

    Any word on whether Red Rock is waving their hefty fee for extra people in rooms?

  65. @82

    Rock on!

    Bullshit! This garbage stops, and it stops now.

    The Tao of baseball bat and brass knuckles?

    Ommmm…Ommmm….Ow, my #@%$#%!

  66. Thomas M. Sipos

    Robert Capozzi: “This garbage stops, and it stops now…. tough love.”

    Gee, in another thread you’d accused me of sounding like your parent, and you insisted that I was nobody’s parent.

    Now who’s talking like a parent?

    Gains: “A few days later it was scrubbed for a proposal that was not even presented to them in a different state… with a dual convention with Nevada being negotiated.”

    If the LPC is considering a state convention in Nevada, rather than in California, then the current LPC has stooped even lower than with Starr’s cruise convention — at least in 2006 the cruise ship departed from California.

    Will some LPC ExCom members please confirm or deny that the next LPC convention might not be in California?

  67. Robert Capozzi

    tms: Now who’s talking like a parent?

    me: Fair point. How would YOU characterize the fabricated LP FL “resolution” and double deflections on the shuttle services? Is that more adult behavior, or is that childish, easily-seen-through, infantile antics? Productive input, or sabotage?

    Perhaps there’s another way to handle such obvious malevolence…please do share…

    btw, the difference is that you seem to believe that we should buy your narrative of Root and his views and motives. This is smoking-gun, over-the-line behavior material, near as I can tell.

    If you want to talk about as adults, let’s engage. Always happy to communicate adult to adult.

  68. Michael H. Wilson

    RC writes: ” Amen! We have just witnessed two very disturbing, apparently malicious attempts to — in a childish, easily-seen-through ways — rip any shred of a functioning political party through appears to be deliberate deception. This was done by two party leaders, or at least by people who seem to position themselves as leaders.”

    Robert this crap has been going on for years at one level or another.

  69. Robert Capozzi

    mhw: Robert this crap has been going on for years at one level or another.

    me: Yes, I agree. It takes two to fight a war, but one to end it. I’d think Ls of all people would see that no one wins in perpetual war.

    Do you?

  70. George Phillies

    Capozzi, in my opinion you are simply trolling or being played by a spinmeister who knows hwen he has caught a mark.

    With respect to fabricate, here is the Florida resolution. From their front web page, I reproduce:

    Resolution regarding Wayne Allen Root

    WHEREAS, the Libertarian Party of Florida Executive Committee is committed to the platform of the Libertarian Party; and

    WHEREAS, Libertarian National Congressional Committee chairman, Wayne Allyn Root made the undisputed quote in the November 11-17, 2010 issue of weekly magazine Vegas Seven, “I’m kind of re-creating libertarianism. I’m just not going to follow the traditional roots. I’m a Ronald Reagan libertarian. Traditional libertarianism mixes in too many things that are liberal”; and

    WHEREAS, the Libertarian Party of Florida Executive Committee finds Mr. Roots comments found above will confuse the general public as to what the Libertarian Party’s official positions are; and

    WHEREAS, the Libertarian Party of Florida Executive Committee finds Mr. Roots comments highly offensive and in direct contrast to the Libertarian Party’s message and platform; and

    WHEREAS, Mr. Root has supported Republican candidates for public office while in his position on the Libertarian National Congressional Committee; and

    WHEREAS, Mr. Root has made similar and consistent comments noted above.

    NOW THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED, the Libertarian Party of Florida fully repudiates Mr. Roots comments as described above and strongly feels Mr. Root should be replaced and removed from his position in any official capacity with the Libertarian National Committee, inclusive of the Libertarian National Congressional Committee.

    ADOPTED November 14, 2010

    Libertarian Party of Florida
    Vicki Kirkland, Chair

    ———————-
    There is no obvious reason to doubt that the resolution was passed. After all it has been up on the Florida web pages for some time.
    Incidentally, the Examiner column is written by a member of the Florida State Committee, who in my opinion probably knew whether or not his State Committee just passed a resolution.

    The Idaho Resolution was transmitted to the LNC by Mary Ruwart. LNC members who want to find it should consult Lnc-discuss Digest, Vol 68, Issue 148 and trace backwards.

    And I shall repeat what I said last time
    “And only a $50 cab ride from the local airport.”

    That is my full text. I did not discuss ride sharing, shuttles, subways, bus lines, car rental, levitation, or donning hiking boots — after all, it’s only 15 or so miles and quite flat. I discussed cab fares. Period, full stop. Anyone who says I talked about anything else entered the thread downstream and did not check, or is trolling. I discussed the transport in which I am interested, and quit.

    I have not seen anyone challenge the cab rate I quoted, assuming they remembered a tip.

    Not an aside: Having said that, I seem to fly out of Vegas with painful regularity. In my experience, when they say you need two hours to pass through TSA, they mean two full hours. The time I had an hour and a half I did a dead run from the scanners to the gate — see, exercise machines and pumping iron helps — and they were mostly boarded when I got there.

    Perhaps Wayne can advise on current experience, if he has passed through since the pornatrons were installed.

    However, if your flight leaves before 9AM, you should be alert to the question of whether that 7 AM shuttle helps. I seem to recall my dead run before breakfast was a 6 AM shuttle for an 8 AM flight over a similar distance.

    The above is the first time I discussed shuttles, subways, buses, walking, or any other alternative.

  71. Gene Berkman

    A historical notes:

    Until 1996, The Libertarian Party would hold its national convention to nominate a Presidential candidate in the year preceding the election – MacBride was nominated in 1975, Ed Clark in 1979, etc up through Andre Marrou being nominated in 1991. This was to enable petition drives to qualify the national ticket for the various state ballots.

    The 1996 convention was considered a breakthrough, made possible because the Libertarian Party by then had ongoing ballot status in more than 20 states (not sure how many). It was also believed that a convention held in the election year would get more coverage by the news media.

    It is likely that the 1996 convention did get more news coverage because of when it was held. But after the failure of the LP to have any effect on the Presidential campaign in 2000, media interest in the national convention declined to the point where CSPN and wire services provided almost all the news reporting on the convention.

  72. Gains

    MHW @88: “Robert this crap has been going on for years at one level or another.”

    If you ask me, it needs to come to an end. We are going to have a hard time building an ethical organization much less doing any kind of educating in an atmosphere of constant and consistent abuse.

  73. Scott Lieberman

    “Thomas M. Sipos // Nov 29, 2010 at 7:08 pm

    Gains: “A few days later it was scrubbed for a proposal that was not even presented to them in a different state… with a dual convention with Nevada being negotiated.”

    If the LPC is considering a state convention in Nevada, rather than in California, then the current LPC has stooped even lower than with Starr’s cruise convention — at least in 2006 the cruise ship departed from California.

    Will some LPC ExCom members please confirm or deny that the next LPC convention might not be in California?”

    ******************************************

    I wonder why Mr. Sipos, a former Libertarian, still cares where the LP of California holds its conventions…

    Nevertheless, there is NOTHING in the Bylaws of the Libertarian Party of California that require our State Conventions to be held in California.

    It is not exactly a state secret that the Executive Committee of the LP of Calif. is considering a Convention in Nevada…

    http://ca.lp.org/convention/2010/11/18/horizon-casino-resort-updated-proposal/

    Since that hotel is in Stateline, NV, and is only about 1/4 mile from the California/Nevada border, it is a lot closer to most LPC members than say, a hotel in Crescent City or Alturas.

  74. LibertarianGirl

    To and from the airport , ya , thats an issue , a bigger issue is to and from the FUN , to and from everything that makes Vegas worth visiting.

    However , Nevada is proud to be awarded this opportunity to give something back

  75. Robert Capozzi

    gp90, has it come to THIS? Really? OK, if you feel the need to create the ultimate teachable moment, here goes:

    Stipulating that I KNOW without a doubt that I do NOT have a monopoly on truth, here’s my best swing at it.

    1) It is my opinion that the ID resolution is completely and utterly not in question here. I’ve not mentioned it. I assume it is authentic. That you feel the need to incorporate the ID resolution – which followed on AFTER the FL “resolution” – feels a Shakespeare-like moment: It seems like you are “protesting too much.” I stipulate that the ID is real.

    2) I have observed what I believe is a pattern of deflecting behavior on your part. You went IMO ballistic on discussion boards about the fact that you reported that the Barr campaign had a line item that specified “Limo services.” To the best of my recollection, you have never produced evidence that the Barr campaign was being irresponsible with its ground transportation expenses, despite the fact that you’ve indicated you would, as I recall. We’re still waiting! The Barr campaign may have been irresponsible, I don’t know. You may have backed up your accusation, but I’ve never seen one. Truly.

    3) You have admitted that you triggered an FEC investigation of the LP. When this came out, I was shocked, especially since I found you to be at the time the Chair candidate most in line with my views. That this information came out at a time when you were running for LNC Chair absolutely floored me. I found this fact beyond bizarre. I have reminded you of this numerous times, admittedly disproportionately. I apologize for doing so. Yet, I remain to this day shocked that a man who, in effect, “narced” on his own party while running to be CHAIR of his party would engage in such behavior is beyond shocking to me. Today. Right now. I found and find your explanation not credible. You claimed several times – as I recall – that you felt you had no other options but to narc on the LP. I DO NOT buy it.

    4) Yes, the FL LP website CURRENTLY includes the “resolution” in question. I have a copy of an email that disclaims that the LP FL executive committee approved that message. I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of the email I have. I have SOME corroborating evidence @ 59 in this thread. Surely you recognize that a webmaster can post whatever he or she cares to. The more “scientific” approach might be to ask the LP FL executive committee members directly. I’m reasonably confident that they will corroborate that a resolution WAS discussed but never voted on. I could be incorrect; I wasn’t there! In the cold light of day, did these thoughts never cross your mind? Or are you deflecting yet again?

    5) You claim, “And only a $50 cab ride from the local airport.’ That is my full text.” Since my opinion is that you are not a fool, I can only conclude that this is a bald-faced lie, easily proven at that. @37, you said: “Those of you who are interested in the free shuttle might look carefully at the schedule that is usually mentioned at the same time the ‘free ‘ is mentioned. That’s why I didn’t bother to bring it up.” You said FAR more, Professor. You were IMO deflecting, BIG TIME. This is the definition of mendacity, IMO. Frankly, you’re not even good at it! Couple that with Flood’s post @ 76, and you are just looking, well, ridiculous.

    6) This: “In my experience, when they say you need two hours to pass through TSA, they mean two full hours. The time I had an hour and a half I did a dead run from the scanners to the gate — see, exercise machines and pumping iron helps — and they were mostly boarded when I got there. Perhaps Wayne can advise on current experience, if he has passed through since the pornatrons were installed.” are the words of a desperate man, cornered. What the HELL does the TSA in Vegas have ANYTHING to do with the subject at hand? Is this a pathetic attempt to confuse and deflect? Are you trying – desperately – to salvage your reputation by blithely suggesting that the TSA is somehow “worse” in Vegas than it is in Boston or DC or Denver or SF or wherever? Spare me! I’m curious, George, how many times have you been through Vegas in the past, say, two years? How many observations has the great scientist observed to feel the need to cast aspersions on Vegas? Science requires repetition, yes? Or, perhaps, are you desperately attempting to ride the anti-TSA sentiment in recent months to make your case? I surely don’t know, but I must admit that something seems to be rotten in Denmark!

    Based on this pattern, I expect further deflections coming from you. At this point, perhaps that’s all you have.

    Not buying it.

    Maybe you’ve not heard, but confession actually IS good for the soul. Or, you can continue on this (untenable, deflecting) path.

    Your choice….

  76. Thomas L. Knapp

    Bob @ 96,

    On the one hand, I stipulate to your expertise on the matter of prevarication.

    On the other hand, the frequency with which you deploy that skill would seem to render your complaints about others’ deployment of it at least hypocritical and probably uproariously laughable.

  77. Robert Capozzi

    tk, careful, now. Where exactly have I “prevaticated”? If you’re going to make an accusation, make it, dammit! For Heaven’s sake, don’ t deflect or cast aspersions. Say it!

    For the record, 96 is about as sincere as it gets. I didn’t hold back, and I’d like to think that you recognize that I say what I mean and mean what I aay…not a protest, just a fact! Else, why share what you share?

    Perhaps you are protecting a brother. I do get that, if so. Admirable, on some levels. Still…this has GOT to stop.

  78. Tom Blanton

    In 2008, Obama spent $730 Million on his campaign and McCain spent $333 Million. Barr spent $1 Million.

    Obviously, it takes big bucks to win an election. Here’s my plan.

    Every LP member buys the full Wealth Masters International package from Wayne Root for only $19,995. Then they all become millionaires. Then they each donate $100,000 using laundered through various means to avoid election laws. If only 15,000 donate $100K, that is $1.5 Billion. That should be enough to purchase the presidency by buying redundant advertising and paying off large numbers of political pundits.

    Or maybe have a really big event – a combination yard sale, bake sale and car wash.

    It would seem that unless a candidate is spending at least $100,000,000, they can’t even pretend to be running against the big dogs.

    Of course, a candidate can run a pretty good campaign for a House seat for about $2 million – slightly more than the typical $5,000 the hugely “successful” LP candidates spend, but less than half of what Eric Cantor (R-Israel) spent.

  79. JT

    Robert: “For the record, 96 is about as sincere as it gets. I didn’t hold back, and I’d like to think that you recognize that I say what I mean and mean what I say…not a protest, just a fact!”

    What you say may be true for you, but not for me or others.

    Blanton: “…but less than half of what Eric Cantor (R-Israel) spent.”

    What do you mean by referencing Cantor and Israel?

  80. Andy

    “LibertarianGirl // Nov 29, 2010 at 10:02 pm

    I wish Nevada would hold it’s convention in Cali around somewhere close to Disneyland or a beach.”

    The LP National Convention in 2000 (which I attended) was held in Anaheim which is where Disneyland is located.

    “95 LibertarianGirl // Nov 29, 2010 at 10:06 pm

    To and from the airport , ya , thats an issue , a bigger issue is to and from the FUN , to and from everything that makes Vegas worth visiting.”

    Las Vegas is a cool place to hold a national convention, but it seems to me that it would be cooler if the convention site was on the Strip.

  81. Darryl W. Perry

    @93 – “Nevertheless, there is NOTHING in the Bylaws of the Libertarian Party of California that require our State Conventions to be held in California.”

    I’m sure there is also:
    NOTHING in the Bylaws of the Libertarian Party of California that require our State Conventions to be held on earth,
    NOTHING in the Bylaws of the Libertarian Party of California that require our State Conventions to be held within the Milky Way galaxy,
    NOTHING in the Bylaws of the Libertarian Party of California that requires members of the Ex.Comm. to be human
    AND
    NOTHING in the Bylaws of the Libertarian Party of California that require the use of common sense.

  82. Aaron Starr

    TS @86

    If the LPC is considering a state convention in Nevada, rather than in California, then the current LPC has stooped even lower than with Starr’s cruise convention — at least in 2006 the cruise ship departed from California.

    Back in 1989 or 1990 the Libertarian Party of California held its convention in … drum roll, please … Las Vegas, Nevada.

    Many of us thought it would be fun (it was) and we particularly relished the idea that we weren’t bound by some statist concept known as borders in deciding where we should hold our annual meeting.

    For the record, I can’t take credit for the idea and I had very little influence on state party decisions at the time.

  83. Sludge Puppy and the Scum Lords

    Yup that is always the way it should be. make it a challenge. Only those who are sincere will meet the challenge. We don’t want any ass wipes around here. If you can’t drive through the snow and the ice to get to the convention don’t bother. Too damn cheap to afford a car? Forget it! Ya Woosie!

    So you gave to the LP for 25 years and then lost your job. Tough shit! No dues No play!

    We’d rather have fun.

  84. S.O.B

    Wow it looks like that s.o.b ( son of a butcher ) has some tricks up his sleeve I just wonder how many of the delegated will fall for his spoke man act. but look on the bright side every one will be able to see Roots late night tv adds and bill boards around town . My big question is why did they decide to select a location so far away from the airport all the action is going to be several miles away !

  85. Aaron Starr

    @59

    Mr Capozzi is correct. Ms Kirkland, FL chair, told several people in New Orleans that the Florida LP just authorized Karl Dickey to write a resolution, but did not ever look at or approve the text until after he already published it as if it were the resolution that had been passed. At least two IPR writers were present when she said this.

    Paulie and I were the two IPR writers present in New Orleans who witnessed Florida Chair Vicki Kirkland voice her disappointment that the Florida LP had not been presented any text before voting (she had abstained) and that Karl Dickey had taken the liberty to craft his far reaching language AFTER the vote.

    I got the sense from Vicki that they wouldn’t have voted for Dickey’s resolution had they seen the language ahead of time.

    I believe I might have observed a smile emerge from the painful expression on her face when I joked that the state party leadership with that vote had proven that its members were now qualified to serve in Congress. Members of that august body do not read what they vote on either.

  86. Thomas M. Sipos

    Aaron Starr: “Many of us thought it would be fun (it was) and we particularly relished the idea that we weren’t bound by some statist concept known as borders in deciding where we should hold our annual meeting.”

    So you don’t believe in “statist” concepts such as borders? So you support “open borders” on immigration? For all nations?

    Somehow, I don’t think so.

    I also doubt that Root’s supporters want the LPC to hold its convention in Nevada as a “principled” stand against “statist” borders.

    It’s funny how some reform types (or whatever you want to call that faction) reach for “purist” language when it suits them.

    Too bad they have no trouble with “statism” when it comes to opposing war and empire.

    Scott Lieberman: “I wonder why Mr. Sipos, a former Libertarian, still cares where the LP of California holds its conventions…”

    Actually, my LPC membership doesn’t expire until the end of 2010. Still a month to go.

    And I care because I hate sleaze in general. It’s sleazy when Demopublicans rig the electoral game. Sleazy if “the party of principle” were to try and rig the outcome of its convention.

    I’m sure that you, Scott, have often criticized Democrats and Republicans. Do you imagine that only registered Libertarians can criticize the LP?

  87. Aaron Starr Post author

    @108

    My big question is why did they decide to select a location so far away from the airport all the action is going to be several miles away!

    Actually, it’s not any further from the airport than other venues we’ve had in the past.

    The 2008 Convention at the Sheraton in Denver was 23 miles from the airport — with no free shuttle service.

    The 2010 Convention at the Renaissance Grand in St. Louis was 14 miles from the airport — with no free shuttle service.

    The main competing bid for 2012 at the Hyatt Regency in Dallas is 18 miles from the airport — with no free shuttle service.

    The Red Rock in Las Vegas is 14 miles from the airport — with free shuttle service to-and-from the airport and the Strip.

  88. Tom Blanton

    I know Brian Holtz doesn’t believe in the statist concept of borders – except when they are used to exclude Mexicans that lower the standard of his life and pollute his commons.

    Speaking of Mexicans, why not have the big LP convention in Mexico? Vegas went out of style like about 45 years ago.

  89. Aaron Starr Post author

    TS @ 110

    So you don’t believe in “statist” concepts such as borders? So you support “open borders” on immigration? For all nations?

    Somehow, I don’t think so.

    You didn’t know me back in 1990. I was a Rothbardian at the time.

  90. Aaron Starr Post author

    TK @14

    Aaron,

    If the LNC announces the convention date early enough, then the state LPs can work up their convention schedules to fit.

    A good rule of thumb — not necessarily for city/venue, but for date — would be four years out. When a new LNC meets for the first time at the end of a convention, let it set a date for convention-after-next, to be changed only in extremis. That gives state LPs 2-3 years to figure out when they want to have their delegate selection conventions.

    Some affiliates are compelled by either their bylaws or by state law to have their conventions during the earlier months of even years. Since many affiliates want to choose their delegates at such times, it makes it somewhat problematic to hold a national convention prior to May in those years.

    As far as deciding upon a date and location to hold a convention, it depends a lot on the particular deal being offered by competing hotels.

    There is some motivation by the current LNC to schedule out conventions further out in advance. I’m hopeful that at least the 2014 convention (and perhaps the 2016) convention will be decided upon before the end of the current LNC term.

  91. Kevin Knedler

    #116 Aaron. No “perhaps” on 2016. My motion passed. The 2016 convention will be decided prior to start of the 2012 national convention. I believe the submittal deadline for nominations of 2016 national convention is February 10, 2012.

  92. Robert Capozzi

    Tk99: It would be easier for me to answer the question “where exactly have you not prevaricated?” The answer is “nowhere that I’m aware of.”

    Me: You know, Tom, if that’s true, then either I’m very disappointed with myself OR I’m very disappointed that you would make such an indictment. I can say that my conscience is clear, and I’ve done my best to call it as I see it. If OTOH I constantly prevaricate, could you at least have the decency to point to an instance where I have done so? That might help me out a lot to mend my ways, which are admittedly imperfect, but, in my mind, well-intentioned.

    As a fellow Thoreau fan, you may know this quote of his: “The lawyer’s truth is not Truth, but consistency or a consistent expediency.”

    Phillies engages in lawyers truths IMO @90. No one disputes his cab expense cite, but he doesn’t cite the shuttle, probably doesn’t know that the shuttle service will be increased for the convention, doesn’t put his lawyers truth in context (comparing it with previous conventions [see 112]). Given the opportunity to elaborate on his intention, he changes the subject. If I’m prevaricating again in your mind, how so? Help me, please!

    We now know that Starr (and Paulie) are reporting and confirming the email I have that Kirkland reports that the FL LP ex comm didn’t review the Root-ouster resolution prior to its transmission to IPR. We also know that Phillies presents us with a lawyers truth: Yes, it IS on the FL LP website. If I am doing my compulsive prevarication routine and Phillies isn’t, help us understand your opinion. Please don’t just assert it.

    Help us understand how citing the LP ID resolution sheds ANY light on this subject.

    Help us understand how Phillies (self-reported and vague) anecdotal observations of the relative intrusiveness of the TSA’s tactics are somehow worse at McCarran than other major airports.

    For the bystanders, know that I didn’t like the concept of Vegas, Dallas, SF, or SoCal. I believe DC or NY are conceptually optimal for presidential nominations. Nor am I a Root ’12 supporter; I think in concept another former congressman, preferably a D, would be our optimal choice, if we could recruit someone like Tim Penny, who has L-leanings already.

    So, Thomas, please, set the record straight. I’m open to the possibility that I am completely off base, but as of now, your counters have been thin and weak, near as I can tell. Perception is reality, of course, but that’s why civil people compare notes on their perceptions, to learn and grow and broaden their perspectives. For this process to work, there needs to be at least SOME trust, SOME sense that the players on stage are not just spouting lawyers truths. If there’s another way, again, please do share…

  93. Muddy Waters

    I miss the AIP threads. LP drama isn’t nearly as exciting.

    Yeah…where’s the King of Swing with unsubstantiated allegations of bestiality porn tapes? The dueling self-proclaimed party chairmen? People calling each other “subhuman rats” and introducing published professional psychiatric assessments of their opponents into evidence? Now that’s what I call drama! This….

  94. Robert Capozzi

    “@82″84: The Tao of baseball bat and brass knuckles….Ommmm

    me: btw, this was amusing, but generally in English, “Aum” is preferred, as I understand it. Aum is Sanskrit and Indian. Rothbard himself would likely not have made this error, since he identified the first L to be Lao Tzu, purported author of the Tao, who was Chinese, not Indian.

  95. George Phillies

    The resident troll writes:

    “Phillies (self-reported and vague) anecdotal observations of the relative intrusiveness of the TSA’s tactics”

    I realize you make stuff up as you go, but other readers may want to notice that I did not say that TSA tactics were slower. I said the line took much longer to get through. I was even fairly specific on time — be there two hours in advance. Fortunately, most of the hotels I have used have warned me about this in advance.

    Continuing the rational discussion, perhaps someone will also report on shared van charges.

  96. Michael H. Wilson

    What kinda bugs me is we haven’t heard anything about room rates and it would seem to me that one of the first things people would be interested in the the cost of the room. I used to do a lot of travel ( been to all but five states) and that was one thing of interest but not here. Maybe I’m in the wrong group.

  97. @123

    I am thinking the room rates are not finalized yet.

    Aren’t they still negotiating?

    From what I understand, they are probably likely to be in the ballpark of or slightly below the last few conventions.

  98. Michael H. Wilson

    Well that seems odd. I would have thought we’d get a quote on rates before the contract was finalized.

    Guess I spent too long as a purchasing agent.

  99. paulie

    Somebody emailed me about this. I can confirm that Vickie Kirkland told several of us that FL only authorized Karl Dickey to draft resolution language, but did not review or vote on that language – he just went ahead and published it.

    Sorry, still no time to review everyone’s comments, call me at 415-690-6352 if you want to talk about this or other matters.

    I’m in the DC area, if anything of interest is going on around here, please give me a call and let me know.

  100. JT

    Blanton: “If you actually don’t know what I mean, then you must not know much about Cantor.”

    I know some about him because he’s the Republican Whip, but I’ll admit I haven’t been following his career. I wanted to know whether you were simply referencing him being Jewish, or that he’s a strong supporter of U.S aid to Israel. If the latter, he’s obviously just one of many in Congress. If the former, I think it’s unnecessarily inflammatory. So I was asking to be clear on what you meant.

    Robert: “I think in concept another former congressman, preferably a D, would be our optimal choice, if we could recruit someone like Tim Penny, who has L-leanings already.”

    Contra-indicated.

  101. Robert Capozzi

    Gp122, I’m really sorry you feel that way, George. Reasonable people can and do disagree from time to time. But I cannot imagine that any reasonable person could read 96 and your response 122 and conclude that your response in any way addresses the pattern of behavior that I’ve identified that you exhibit.

    Your behavior has become predictable to the point of being hackneyed, at least for me and, I suspect, any fair-minded reader. ONCE AGAIN you deflect, using a “consistent expediency,” a “lawyers truth,” and, once again, an unpersuasive one. There is JUST ENOUGH truth in post 122 to avoid an outright lie, since my term “relative intrusiveness” is not quite the same as your “line took much longer to get through….”

    More important, this is a deflection, a misdirection on top of a misdirection, for your point about the TSA was clearly not germane to begin with. You now don’t even address how your first deflection on this point leaves us readers of your words completely without any context. In 96, I’d asked, “Are you trying – desperately – to salvage your reputation by blithely suggesting that the TSA is somehow ‘worse’ in Vegas than it is in Boston or DC or Denver or SF or wherever?”

    Still no response to even that, which is obviously tangential!

    I see Paulie has verified the fact closer to the main point: LP FL’s chair has stated: “FL only authorized Karl Dickey to draft resolution language, but did not review or vote on that language – he just went ahead and published it.”

    If it makes you feel better to label me a “troll,” then by all means, do so. I have no monopoly on truth, but I do seek it. If you too are seeking truth, my feedback is you are not demonstrating that to the assembled.

    But, then, this is NOT about me. It SHOULD be about advancing liberty. It SHOULD be about demonstrating forthrightness, internally and externally.

    If you really believe you are being forthright in your quiet moments of reflection, then I can only offer you this quote from AMERICAN BEAUTY: “Never underestimate the power of denial.”

    Peace.

  102. Robert Capozzi

    jt127: Contra-indicated.

    me: Ha! I’ve sworn off the indicated/contra-indicated thing, based on feedback. Seems played out with this crowd.

    But, OK, you’re not diggin’ the Penny concept, that’s more than fair. Share yours, if you please.

  103. Thomas L. Knapp

    Bob @ 119,

    You write:

    “If OTOH I constantly prevaricate, could you at least have the decency to point to an instance where I have done so?”

    Sure. The best and easiest is to take a topic over which there’s been a long-term opportunity to observe your response.

    For example, the topic of Wayne Allyn Root’s long-term relationship with truth/fact, which you and I have been arguing since back in the days of “Third Party Watch.” That discussion invariably goes like this:

    1) Wayne lies.

    2) I assert that he has lied.

    3) You say that you don’t see it and prevaricate over the facts of whatever topic he lied about

    4) I irrefutably prove and document that he has lied.

    5) You say that you don’t see it and prevaricate over the meaning of “lie.”

    6) Later, when I note that Wayne has displayed a habit of lying, you pretend not to remember any of the numerous instances of 1-5.

  104. JT

    Robert: “I have no monopoly on truth, but I do seek it. If you too are seeking truth, my feedback is you are not demonstrating that to the assembled.”

    I don’t understand your pursuit of “truth” on this thread. There’s no objective truth, right? Maybe George is saying what’s true for him but not for you. You shouldn’t be so restrictive.

    Robert: “Ha! I’ve sworn off the indicated/contra-indicated thing, based on feedback. Seems played out with this crowd.”

    Very glad to hear that.

    Robert: “But, OK, you’re not diggin’ the Penny concept, that’s more than fair. Share yours, if you please.”

    I don’t have a name at this point in time. But offhand I’d say someone who’d realistically be willing to run as a Libertarian, who backs a huge reduction in the federal government, who’s polished and articulate, and who doesn’t want to talk about conspiracy theories (e.g., Birther, 9/11 Truther, Irwin Shiffer, etc.).

    I’d also much prefer that person be able to raise more than a million dollars BEFORE the national convention. That would demonstrate their own fund-raising ability (or willingness to finance part of their campaign themselves if they’re able to do it). But I don’t think this one is absolutely necessary.

  105. Hmmm ...

    @97,98,99 …

    No prevarication by Robert Capozzi …

    … he is sometimes: predicatable, persistent, pointed, provocative, perplexing, peevish, pedantic, petulant perhaps, playful, pushy, peaceful, and perpetually preaching …

    but prevaricating, no, he is not …

  106. MMP James Ogle [Free Parliamentary]

    Draft A Female/Capozzi for President!
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  107. Mark Rutherford Zombie

    Zombie!Liberty will provide training on spiritual belief system of voodoo, a complete walk-through of how to become an FEC filer (which everyone must to do when they become reanimated corpses) voter registration, lobbying, and much more by the successful by use of magic.

    The mission of Zombie!Liberty is simple: provide libertarians zombies with a desire to engage in a general assault on civilization, the resources, money, and to do so.

  108. Presidential Candidate Search Committee

    I don’t have a name at this point in time. But offhand I’d say someone who’d realistically be willing to run as a Libertarian, who backs a huge reduction in the federal government, who’s polished and articulate, and who doesn’t want to talk about conspiracy theories (e.g., Birther, 9/11 Truther, Irwin Shiffer, etc.).

    Unfortunately, Harry Browne is no longer available. I was planning to ask David Nolan to run (no idea if he would have), but as you know he is unfortunately no longer available as well. Other ideas are definitely welcome. Anyone have thoughts on this?

  109. @Coming soon

    “I am surprised that haven’t started the TSA patdowns in Hotels”

    Just wait, some wackjob will get a bright idea and try to bomb a hotel, and then you will be scanned and patted down every time you go in and out of a hotel lobby. I don’t know that all that groping and exposure would make you come, though, unless what turns you on is far outside the norm.

  110. Robert Capozzi

    jt132: I don’t understand your pursuit of “truth” on this thread. There’s no objective truth, right? Maybe George is saying what’s true for him but not for you. You shouldn’t be so restrictive.

    me: Right. Seeking truth is shorthand for identifying and letting go of UNtruth. Nullifying falsehoods, since what’s true is true. Unfortunately, until we reach the (unlikely) day when all the false dragons have been slain, our biases, projections, and mistaken perceptions will keep truth unknown to us.

    As for George’s working theory of an approximation of truth, I still have no clue. He keeps changing the subject, not answering direct questions, etc.

    In the meantime, since perfection eludes us all, it’s my strong preference to maintain civility while we compare notes about our truth-seeking. Most people probably want civility, too, but occasionally a brother will walk on stage to play the killjoy. This can be tolerated up to a point, but if the behavior persists and becomes a distraction for the other truth seekers, it seems wise to directly confront the killjoy.

    Or something.

  111. JT

    Robert: “Right. Seeking truth is shorthand for identifying and letting go of UNtruth. Nullifying falsehoods, since what’s true is true. Unfortunately, until we reach the (unlikely) day when all the false dragons have been slain, our biases, projections, and mistaken perceptions will keep truth unknown to us.”

    This makes no sense. If there’s no objective truth, there’s no objective falsity to let go of. Therefore, it makes no sense for you to even refer to truth or falsity that’s both true for you as well as for other people. Yet that’s exactly what you’re doing here when you’re asking George and Tom for the truth. I don’t expect any clarification of it from you, just pointing it out.

    Me: “But offhand I’d say someone who’d realistically be willing to run as a Libertarian, who backs a huge reduction in the federal government, who’s polished and articulate, and who doesn’t want to talk about conspiracy theories (e.g., Birther, 9/11 Truther, Irwin Shiffer, etc.).”

    Given that Bob Barr meets all the criteria above, I should have also said someone who doesn’t have a lengthy history of socially conservative activism or economically liberal activism who then alienates a sizable portion of the LP.

  112. MMP James Ogle [Free Parliamentary]

    @37
    Searching for candidates for president/VP?

    Well, maybe MMP Sarah Palin [Republican] or Mit Romney [Republican] as president, and a Libertarian as Vice President. That seems like a better plan.

    I’m working on such a plan myself, to be working in a coalition with the “All Party System”.

    We are working in coordination, with votes cast as proof.

    I think a Palin/Nott [Republican/Libertarian] candidacy would be a much more realistic plan, I would certainly vote for that above Obama/Biden [Democratic/Democratic] – a ceratin choice.

    I think the All Party System’s 100-member national committee has a much better platform for accountability to our five executives and Cabinet, and a better tool for finding good candidates who work well together.

    The three Prime Ministers and two Secretaries can be rotated around like five basketball players, as the ruling coalition, of whom the prez/vp may be two, votes to move the names in and out.

    Sure we have a President and Vice President, but they are simply initial contacts, and their power is greatly diminished as #s 3 though #100 are the ones who elect the figurehead Prime Ministers. The power is not with the intitial contacts.

    It’s much more dynamic than anything the Libertarian Party has to offer by itself, as far as I can tell.
    * * *

    Join the Frees,
    opposite gender #1

    Draft Nott/A Female for President!

    Free Ireland!

    “Why do you THINK they called it Google?”

    See the ad “Draft Nott/A Female for Prez/VP in 2012″, a coalition for Libertarian Party females on the USA Parliament’s web page; http://www.usparliament.org/

    (For Libertarian Party males; “Draft Ruwart/Nott for Prez/VP in 2012”)

    In Coalition with;
    MP Don Grundmann [Constitution] for US Senate in 2012, PLUS at least one US Senate Candidate in every state/super-state state.

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  113. Matt Cholko

    I read somewhere (though I have no idea where) that room rates at the 2012 convention hotel are lower than the 2008 and 2010 hotels. There was no number given, but I figured this meant that the rates have been agreed upon.

    On the other hand, I wouldn’t blame a business for not wanting to lock in numbers 18 months in advance, given the uncertain inflation picture. I could accept a contract clause something like “….rates will be 20% below the advertised rate for the convention dates, as of 2/1/2012″

  114. Gains

    JT @141: “This makes no sense. If there’s no objective truth, there’s no objective falsity to let go of.”

    Game theory time.

    Subjective truth and falsity are both a very important parts of most people’s decision making maps.

    While person A makes allusions about truths, person B tries to improve their understanding about person A’s understanding by asking questions. When person A avoids the probing of understanding, person B has a reasonable basis for weighing person A’s assertions as less “truthful” in their own personal map.

    Most of what goes on in a social forum is people puking up parts of their maps and contrasting and comparing them with other people’s regurgitated maps in a group setting. Because IPR is an open forum, the weighing of truth is an important part of each participants interaction with each other through the medium.

    This is a difficult concept for people who do not have a practiced and cognitively aware system of incorporating understandings and truths outside of knowledge and fact.

    If the world is black and white for you, it does not surprise me that you get confused or upset when people ask about grays. You probably get hysterical when people talk about reds and greens.

    If you are one of these types I would recommend taking up an artistic pursuit and exercizing that part of your mind. Without those skills, living in a black and white world of knowing and not knowing, you are only half a person.

    If you are the opposite, all understandings and feelings, and no regard for fact, I would recommend taking up a concentrated study of Newtonian physics.

  115. Presidential Candidate Search Committee

    MMP James Oogle,

    I find your ideas (if that’s the term) to be contra-indicated with extreme prejudice :-)

    For anyone out there who is not refusing to take their psychiatrist-prescribed medications, as Ogle readily admits to doing, any good ideas for possible Libertarian presidential candidates that meet the terms JT lays out above?

  116. Presidential Candidate Search Committee

    I read somewhere (though I have no idea where) that room rates at the 2012 convention hotel are lower than the 2008 and 2010 hotels.

    You read a comparison of apples to oranges: the 2012 convention hotel’s non-discount rate to general customers vs. the negotiated group rate at the 2008 and 2010 hotels. There’s at least a fairly good chance that the person(s) who made such comparisons understood this and hoped many of their readers would not, but let’s give them the benefit of the doubt.


    There was no number given, but I figured this meant that the rates have been agreed upon.

    You figured incorrectly. The hotel submitted a bid, which was conpared to bids from the other hotels by the LNC. The LNC’s decision authorizes the convention committee to negotiate with the winning finalist to get the best possible deal by negotiating against that bid with the knowledge that they are authorized to sign a contract once terms have been agreed to.

  117. Robert Capozzi

    jt141: This makes no sense. If there’s no objective truth, there’s no objective falsity to let go of.

    me: Hmm, well, this gets very far afield, but, for the open minded: Yes, it wouldn’t make sense IF I were referring to “objective” truth. However, I’m not. This Truth I’m referring to is eternal, constant, and abstract. It goes by many other names, none of which could possibly capture the totality of the concept….universal love, respect, Tao, God, Oneness.

    Taking it down to the lower-case truth of the time and space level, it means authentically representing what our perceptions and emotions register in our mind, and sharing that as clearly as possible with others.

    jt: Therefore, it makes no sense for you to even refer to truth or falsity that’s both true for you as well as for other people.

    me: Again, at a time and space level, it seems wise to acknowledge that others perceive, have opinions, feel inspired that X is the wise course of action. If I find something that someone represents to me as not making sense TO me, my practice is to ask what they mean…to offer alternative perceptions…to understand their perspective…to compare notes, even if I don’t agree with them.

    jt: Yet that’s exactly what you’re doing here when you’re asking George and Tom for the truth.

    me: In George’s case, I simply don’t understand his behavior. I don’t find his narrative to be coherent. He doesn’t seem interested in offering a coherent explanation, since he seems to change the subject rather frequently. He calls people names. He puts out misinformation and doesn’t seem interested in correcting himself when he does so.

    Tom and I seem to be operating from very different paradigms based on very different premises. Near as I can tell, most of our disagreements boil down to differing epistemological perspectives.

    My practice is to approach everyone with respect, but I admit that I often fall short of that. George in particular I find frustrating, for, while I have an enormous amount of respect for him, his behavior strikes me as toxic to the LP’s growth prospects. I totally grant that a Phillies-led LP MIGHT be the optimal path to liberty, but I definitely am not seeing how what appear to me to be misdirection and condemnation get us there.

  118. JT

    Gains: “If the world is black and white for you, it does not surprise me that you get confused or upset when people ask about grays. You probably get hysterical when people talk about reds and greens.”

    Are you referring to me personally or just using the general “you”? If you’re referring to me personally, then your post is full of baseless speculations and insinuations. If not, then okay.

    Despite your effort to seem insightful, I think you often say nothing at all, so I’m not very interested in continuing here with you. But I can assure you that I don’t get “confused or upset” or “probably get hysterical” over this either. In addition, I have artistic pursuits that I enjoy, including being a writer by trade. But judging by your consistently pseudo-intellectual, purple prose, I can’t say I’m at all surprised by your response.

  119. Not a TSA employee

    Irregular Times reports:

    The Longest War In Afghanistan Ever?
    November 27, 2010 at 3:16 pm by Truman

    Yesterday, the American military passed a wearisome milestone. As of yesterday, American soldiers had been occupying Afghanistan for as long as soldiers from the Soviet Union did during the 1980s.

    From today onward, our American occupation of Afghanistan is longer than the Soviet occupation of that country.

    The anti-Soviet mujahideen, trained and financed by the American government to fight in Afghanistan, included Osama Bin Laden and many fighters currently working for Al Quaeda and the Taliban. What blowback will the current occupation bring?

    Betting is heavy this will still be going on May 4-6, 2012…

  120. Aaron Starr

    @4

    So what are the rates at the hotel? I assume the LP has purchased a block of rooms.

    The LNC does not purchase a block of rooms for a convention. The way these arrangements typically work, the hotel agrees to set aside a block of rooms at a discounted rate, such rooms not available to the general public until some negotiated date, say, thirty or sixty days before the event.

    In addition, the event organizer guarantees that a certain amount of food will be purchased.

    In exchange, the LNC would be subject to various financial penalties if the event’s participants fail to buy enough food and use up an agreed upon portion of the rooms set aside for attendees at the reduced rate. Such penalties could include having the party pay for the rental of the convention hall, which would otherwise be made available on a complimentary basis, and a certain percentage of the lost revenue that the hotel would have otherwise been able to earn had they not reserved it for the event’s participants.

    There is a certain art to this.

    On the one hand, you want the hotel to set aside a large enough block of rooms so that participants can take advantage of lower prices and the hotel will provide a large enough convention hall to accommodate everyone.

    On the other hand, you don’t want the commitment to be so high that the event’s organizer is left with a big bill to pay because not enough paying customers (i.e. people who pay for rooms and buy meal packages) attend.

    The ability to negotiate a favorable, less risky agreement is a function of how experienced the negotiator is in such matters and what the supply and demand is for such facilities. If one is naive about such matters, the experienced folks representing the hotel will take you to the cleaners.

    During good economic times it is more difficult to negotiate well. Since Las Vegas is going through an economic depression and suffers from overcapacity, the LNC is in a better position to negotiate well.

  121. MMP James Ogle [Free Parliamentary]

    @145

    “I find your ideas (if that’s the term) to be contra-indicated with extreme prejudice.”

    Of course you do, You’re looking for “a presidential candidate”, while I’m looking for 135 to 165 presidential candidates.

    You’re probably a control freak, who wants to stifle free speech access by as many people as possible.

    You’re probably doing what the failed party bosses do in California, they look for one person and set everyone else up for failure.

    They run their little secret plans, trying to control the results rather than opening things up to as many good people as possible.

    That’s exactly how it worked in 2008 with the national LP, remember?

    The LP chose MP Bob Barr [Libertarian], who then picked W.A. Root [Libertarian].

    It’s not like the LP is saying, “We want to work with as many people as possible.”

    Quite the opposite, they’re saying “Go away, unless we pick you, because we’re giving the advantage to as few select people as possible. Regardless of any bigger team plan.

    I can see the LP using STV for electing one prez candidate, maybe two people including VP, but I don’t see them electing hundreds of consecutively ranked names, with plenty of consecutively ranked names as back-ups.

    BTW, it’s James O. Ogle, or joogle. Google got their idea in October of ’97 from my name in Usenet when Sergie Brin asked “What is a joogle?” That was my logo, my email address.

    Someone replied “I don’t know what a joogle is, but a google is a number. (The number is spelled googol) A week later Brin announced that he named his search engine Google…and I know plenty of witnesses. One of them owns greens.org. Another might be “King of Swing”.

    Pretty cool, eh?

    Because of me, Google misspelled googol. So whenever you see Google, you’ll remember they don’t want you to know where they got their idea for their name, and they got it from mine.

    And they made plenty of money off that. But I’m still alive, and I helped them make billions.

    I know they don’t want you to know, because they erased the evidence in Deja News when they bought that and turned it into Google Groups.

    And if you were smart, you’d start hustling and start getting people to participate in the All Party System, because as four elected teams of 100, we’re not dysfunctional like everyone else.

    Today is like June 6th, 1944 at 0600 hours on Normandy Beach France and we’re being decimated. We’re going at a slow pace. So slow that “Battle of the Bulge” isn’t expected for 150,000 years in the future at current pace.

    Today we’ll be seeing 25oo casualties from the forces of Allied Central Command, but we don’t even have that many people on the beach yet.

    And maybe we’re being pushed backwards, and many of our friends are dead in the water…but some day we’ll have enough independent soldiers on the beach that we’ll be able to take away the roadblocks and move past the two-party system…the concrete bunkers which are decimating us, causing our numbers to be rapidly diminished. I’m writing about plurality elections and single winner districts.
    * * *

    Join the Frees,
    opposite gender #1

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    A female #1, and Nott #2
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    Everyone is invited to the party,
    the programmer is Nott!
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    See the ad “Draft Nott/A Female for Prez/VP in 2012?, a coalition for Libertarian Party females on the USA Parliament’s web page; http://www.usparliament.org/

    Free Ireland!
    In Coalition with;
    MP Don Grundmann [Constitution] for US Senate in 2012, PLUS at least one US Senate Candidate in every state/super-state state.

    MP Don Grundmann [Constitution] for US Senate! http://www.truthusa.org

    * * *
    GoNott Search for Presidential Candidates!
    Try it, GoNott YOUR name!
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  122. Catholic Trotskyist

    The Catholic Trotskyist Party endorses and is currently in cooperation with the USA Parliament project. there are some Libertarians involved too.

  123. Thomas M. Sipos

    Knapp: “Later, you [Robert Capozzi] pretend not to remember…”

    Exactly. This is why one must repeatedly tell Capozzi what one has said many times before. Capozzi like to feign ignorance of past discussions and points made.

    I’ve noticed this “tactic” among Root fans. Eric Dondero, for instance.

    Dondero likes to repeat the lie that neocons are social conservatives, despite my repeated citation of Irving Kristol’s 1986 book, Reflections of a Neoconservative, which coined the term and proves that neocons are not social conservatives.

    No matter. Dondero just disappears, then resurfaces a few months later to repeat his lie, and I have to cite the book yet again.

    The Root clique’s strategy seems to be to wear down the opposition. Facts and logic don’t matter to them. They ignore past events and discussions, so that every debate or argument must begin again at square one.

    I suppose this is what Root means by “relentless.” A relentless repetition of brazen talking points, shamelessly ignoring however many times one is busted.

    “What have you got against Root?” they ask innocently, as though the matter has never before been discussed on any libertarian thread or blog anywhere.

  124. Thomas L. Knapp

    Tom S.,

    You write:

    “This is why one must repeatedly tell Capozzi what one has said many times before.”

    It’s sometimes annoying, but on balance I think it’s a plus.

    Matter of fact, I think there’s a small, but non-trivial, chance that Bob C. is actually secretly an “abolitionist,” etc. himself, and purposefully baits other “abolitionists,” etc. to explain themselves over and over and over and over, for the simple reason that he thinks the repetition is valuable and necessary, so he jumps in to bring it about when he doesn’t see someone else doing so.

    OK, so perhaps the chance is not non-trivial. But it’s not non-existent, either ;-)

  125. Tom Blanton

    Per Alexa

    Independentpoliticalreport.com has a three-month global Alexa traffic rank of 70,842. Compared with all internet users, the site’s users tend to be over the age of 45, and they are disproportionately higher-income men browsing from school and home. Visitors to this site spend approximately three minutes per visit to the site and 67 seconds per pageview. Roughly 27% of visits to it are referred by search engines. Independentpoliticalreport.com has attained a traffic rank of 1,357 among users in South Korea, where about 52% of its audience is located.

    South Korea?

  126. Tom Blanton

    I’ve often considered the possibility that Capozzi, or Bubby as I like to call him, suffers from some sort of mental illness which he treats with a bizarre combination of experimental drugs (provided to him by a “think tank” located in northern Virginia) causing him to experience hallucinations and rendering him delusional.

    Apparently, this “think tank” is dispensing a lot of these “medications” to people who support W.A.R.

    Of course, I may be wrong. Maybe these Root People are just knuckleheads, government agents, or operatives working for a secret cabal of right-wing grifters headed by the Koch Boys.

  127. Robert Capozzi

    To the Toms,

    Gee, so much reading between the lines!

    Let me try again to clarify: Yes, Root is a liar, but I maintain that we are ALL liars, so he’s no exception. Knapp has not addressed that I’ve seen this more fundamental point. I don’t find something he wrote or said once to be persuasive that – all things considered – Root is a pathological liar. Anyone can take one quote out of context and state that this PROVES a point. For me, it doesn’t. So Sipos’s hypothesis about Root is unpersuasive to me. When Sipos REPEATS that his case is ironclad, I reiterate that I don’t agree! Perhaps in Sipos’s mind he cannot imagine that others don’t buy his case, so when his case is challenged yet again, it is HE who doesn’t recall that his initial premise was not accepted by me.

    Root surely has been going through a process of public metamorphosis. Sometimes, he appears to be sloppy about it, I grant. Especially on matters of foreign policy and national security, his thought patterns sometimes reflect his R days thinking, sometimes his newfound views. This is to be expected.

    If one is a STRICT non-interventionist, then Root is definitely not your man, near as I can tell. In my case, I’m not a “strict” non-interventionist, but my default position is non-intervention. Root – today – seems to’ve moved in my direction, and if he gets the LP nomination, I’ll likely vote for him, even if he doesn’t agree with me on every single thing. I voted for Barr, and on some issues, I didn’t agree with him, either.

    I’m actually more concerned with Root’s Obama-at-Columbia theme. Something feels very off about it.

    Doing politics/punditry is not easy. Passions become inflamed. Litmus-test lines are crossed. Someone will get pissed off, no matter WHAT one says. Root reminds me of one of those toy cars that charges ahead, hits a wall, bounces off, and goes in another direction. Sometimes, he seems a bit without a True North to me, a bit too eager to please. In fact, I’ve given feedback that he seems to eager to please conservatives and attack liberals. It’s an approach, but I am not an advocate for that approach.

    I don’t happen to believe that the LP is too “left.” I do believe it’s too absolutist IF we want to offer what I call “principled engagement.” That is, to maintain a True North attitude in favor of liberty, but to engage the center where it is. It’s my approach, but it’s hardly the only one. I do think we’d make more headway if more Ls adopted this principled-engagement approach, but I surely cannot prove it!

    Abolitionist Ls seem more inclined to have only one direction. They hit the wall, bounce off, hit the wall again in the same spot, bounce off, etc. etc. Freud called it the repetition compulsion, and I think it may well fit here.

    That approach doesn’t work for me, either.

  128. Dr. Tom Stevens

    I am pleased with the choice of Las Vegas as the host city of the LPUS’s 2012 National Convention. I am not pleased with the selection of the Red Rock Casino Resort & Spa. It is at least 11 miles from the Strip so during breaks and for lunch and dinner, we will not be able to walk out of the hotel and enjoy the selection of buffets and entertainment available.

    There are many reasonable hotels on or just off the Strip. One of those hotels should have been selected, in my opinion.

  129. Robert Capozzi

    tb157: …or Bubby as I like to call him…

    me: Tom, in kindergarden I was called “Bobby Slobby.” You might use that to more firmly establish your rhetorical and polemical skills in the LM. ;-)

  130. Gains

    RC @158: “I do think we’d make more headway if more Ls adopted this principled-engagement approach, but I surely cannot prove it!”

    Sure you can, do it locally and set an example.

  131. Robert Capozzi

    g, I reside inside the Beltway, in possibly the least conducive district in America to attempt a principled-engagement L approach. But even if I lived in a place where such an approach would be more likely to work, we tested it, and it worked on some levels, “proof” would depend on the measure and basis for such proof.

    Say an L ran for state legislature in Wilkes Barre, PA or Oxnard, CA and won. However, the L didn’t hold high the banner for immediate abolition of laws against machine-gun toting in downtown. Imagine the uproar from the abolitionist Ls: “Sell out! Of course I have the right to tote past the babies and little old ladies!”

  132. LP Watcher

    Good choice of Red Rock which is designed as more family-friendly and for conventions. I want to take family, feel safe, and not be bothered by losers, bums, hookers, etc. The strip is no picnic.

  133. Gains

    RC @162:

    Hey, when “proving” a strategy… anecdotal evidence is plenty… and far more than most Libs have.

    The beltway eh? Try this on for size: The Christ was a libertarian who’s primary message after “Be nice to each other already, how can you expect to get along like this?” was “Screw the Romans”.

    Frankly, I do not know a political philosophy more in tune with Christian ethics than libertarianism.

    Here are some other good ones I’ve collected and tried:

    “Yes, drugs are wrong, but why would you use guns to punish people for making bad health choices?” … “I understand your point, but there is already a law against burglary… it carries a lighter sentence than possession of some drugs. I think that with these drug laws, Satan has us bamboozeld into doing the one thing Christ told us not to, and we are doing to to vulnerable sick people.”

    “Faced with the problem of an addict, what would Jesus do short of reaching out and healing him? Would he call for centurions or call on His Father for help?”

    etc etc etc

    BTW do you think that my making christian oriented messages and sells will get me called non-libertarian as atheists try and stem the influx of faithful heathens into the party?

  134. Robert Capozzi

    g, no, my sense is that atheist Ls are becoming more tolerant of Christian Ls as the years roll by. There are plenty of other matters to get militant about. But I’m not the best person to ask, since I’m neither and both atheist and Christian at the same time!

  135. Michael H. Wilson

    RC @ 158 wrote; “Let me try again to clarify: Yes, Root is a liar, but I maintain that we are ALL liars, so he’s no exception.”

    Interesting that this is not the first time I have read or heard that line from someone in the LP.

  136. Tom Blanton

    “Bobby Slobby” sounds mean, while “Bubby” has a warm tone to it – sort of like if I was your grandmother.

    You can call me Swami Tommy, if you’d like. They used to call me this because of my uncanny ability to predict certain aspects of the future. That and my turban.

  137. Robert Capozzi

    Bubby could be short for “Bubala,” I guess. Oy, pass the gefilte fish, why don’tcha?

  138. Tom Blanton

    Actually, Christian libertarians are sometimes the most hardcore libertarians. Jacob Hornberger and Laurence Vance immediately come to mind.

    I don’t know if they are “real” Christians though as God apparently does not call them up and tells them why “He” allowed 9/11 or caused Katrina – like “He” tells Pat Robertson.

  139. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 163

    Have you been to Las Vegas in the last 10 years? I have repeatedly and I saw no bums, losers or even hookers before midnight.

    Atlanta and St. Louis (the #1 crime city in America) were far more dangerous for the family. The Las Vegas Strip would have been a picnic for your family unless you let them wander alone late at night looking for tricks and trouble.

  140. Andy

    “There are many reasonable hotels on or just off the Strip. One of those hotels should have been selected, in my opinion.”

    I agree.

  141. Mr Akhbar

    and not be bothered by losers, bums, hookers, etc.

    This is the Libertarian convention, yes?

    They will be delegates.

  142. Thomas L. Knapp

    “Atlanta and St. Louis (the #1 crime city in America) were far more dangerous for the family.”

    Unless something about Vegas has changed, that’s true. There are regularly street shootings, etc., within a few blocks of the 2010 convention venue.

    In Vegas, at least downtown and on the strip, the police come down hard on anything that might impact the casinos’ bottom line. If I had to pick a street in America to walk down alone, unarmed, reincarnated as a 97-pound weakling, and carrying a considerable sum of cash, at 2:30 in the morning, it would be either Las Vegas Boulevard or Fremont Street.

  143. Born Again Non-Voter

    The Christ was a libertarian

    To his credit, The Christ was not a libertarian, but apolitical.

    “My kingdom is not of this earth.”

    Christ did not oppose earthly authority, which was one reason some Jews were dissatisfied with him.

    Socialists or libertarians can be Christians.

    Christ also recognized the legitimacy of Pontius Pilate’s authority, telling Pilate that he would not have worldly authority unless it had been given to him by the Father.

  144. Gains

    BAnV @174: “To his credit, The Christ was not a libertarian, but apolitical.”

    With my understanding of the word “political”, anyone with 12 disciples, teaching social philosophy and addressing multitudes is definitively political. I might also suggest that the means and circumstances of his murder were specifically political.

    ““My kingdom is not of this earth.”

    Christ did not oppose earthly authority, which was one reason some Jews were dissatisfied with him.”

    That is a partial quote, heck its not even the whole verse.

    Let me flesh it out some:

    So here we are in the book of John, and Jesus and Pilate are going at it like Sipos and Capozzi on IPR:

    “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+18&version=KJV

    Jesus comes at Pilate with “Look man, what I am “king” of, isn’t about there here and now, if it was my posse would have beat all y’all down when you first went SWAT on me in the garden (again sorry about Malchus’ ear). But I have a beautiful thing going and it just does not mesh with your authoritarian hierarchical ontology.”

    In the end, after a couple of back and forths and in true IPR style, Pilate gives up in frustration asking, “What is truth?”

    As to opposing earthly authority, there is active and there is passive opposition. Just because he didn’t write a series of resolutions censuring the pharisees for their imperfect understandings, he sure didn’t give them or any authority an easy time of it. Heck in Luke he tells these guys that if he tried to tell his followers to leave them alone, the very stones would cry out on their own to be thrown at them.

    I am also struck that he instructed his flock that what was really important in life was not Caesar’s gold, but the bounty of the earth provided by God and their labors upon it.

    The fact that tax evasion was one of the charges he was delivered to Pilate for does not escape me nor does the fact that the gospels have him flummoxing and deriding tax collectors all over the place.

    One big question for the assertion that The Christ submitted to earthly authority is: What did Zacchaeus get forgiven for? His only listed crime was being the chief tax collector.

    Luke 19 is a good read for the goldbugs in the party, but note how it ends, all the authority figures in the town he is in are seeking to destroy him but he is too popular.

    Definitely political; definitely did not recognize assumed statist authority, even that taken up in the mantle of God, or taken up purely by the threat of force.

  145. Aaron Starr

    @159

    I am pleased with the choice of Las Vegas as the host city of the LPUS’s 2012 National Convention. I am not pleased with the selection of the Red Rock Casino Resort & Spa. It is at least 11 miles from the Strip so during breaks and for lunch and dinner, we will not be able to walk out of the hotel and enjoy the selection of buffets and entertainment available.

    There are many reasonable hotels on or just off the Strip. One of those hotels should have been selected, in my opinion.

    Members of the LNC toured both the Paris and Bally’s hotels in Las Vegas back in July. I attended those tours.

    There was one location where the ceiling was too low (you want it to be at least 20 feet). It would have been bad for folks at the back of the room (the jumbo screens in front wouldn’t fit) and it would be less than ideal from the view of the media’s camera lens.

    There was also the sense that these hotels were actually too large for us to be a significant presence and our ability to negotiate a good package would be diminished.

    The really nice hotels are not at all willing to deal. The price for our delegates would have been outrageous. Others inquiries were made with other hotels a year earlier and many were not willing to deal with us because our size was insignificant.

  146. Born Again Non-Voter

    the gospels have him flummoxing and deriding tax collectors all over the place.

    Did Christ not say, “render unto Ceasar that which is Ceaser’s…” Meaning that earthly authority had a right to collect earthly taxes.

    “Flummoxing” tax collectors?

    Taxmen were considered sinners, partially because they misused their authority to over-tax and pocket the excess. This is why one tax collector told Christ that if he had stolen anything, he would repay that person fourfold (I think it was fourfold).

    I don’t think Christ considered tax collectors sinners if they only took the required amount (though many Jews did consider all tax collectors sinners, because they were operating under Roman authority).

    Christ preached a way of life, one which is equally compatible under many political systems. Christ was not an earthly reformer. “The poor you will always have with you.”

    Any utopian notion that one can create “heaven on earth” — whether voting for socialism, libertarianism, or the “Christian right” — is contrary to Christ’s apolitical, spiritual, ethical message.

  147. Born Again Non-Voter

    Christianity in its true sense puts an end to the State.

    But not during this life on earth.

    Only Christ Himself can put an end to human authority — upon his return.

    It is hubris to think that humans can create any kind of perfect social system — be it statist or anarchist. All human social systems are inherently corrupt.

    That, I believe, is a component of the Christian message.

    You won’t find heaven at the ballot box, or in any state capitol, or in any anarchist commune.

  148. Thomas L. Knapp

    “Did Christ not say, ‘render unto Ceasar that which is Ceaser’s…’ Meaning that earthly authority had a right to collect earthly taxes.”

    You got what he allegedly said right.

    As to what he meant … well, not so much.

    “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s” is meaning-dependent on what you think is Caesar’s.

    As an aspiring messiah (i.e. a priest-king of the Davidic line), Jesus didn’t agree that anything in Judea was Caesar’s. His mission was to kick Roman ass out of the place and restore the Kingdom of God — which is why the Romans sent a cohort (600 troops) to arrest him after he entered Jerusalem in the manner of a king in open defiance of Roman authority, kicked the money-changers and their coins with representations of the usurper Caesar on them out of the temple, and told his disciples to arm themselves even if they had to sell their purses to afford swords.

  149. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 176

    Thank you Aaron for the additional information about the efforts to find reasonably priced hotels on or near the Strip.

  150. Born Again Non-Voter

    As an aspiring messiah (i.e. a priest-king of the Davidic line), Jesus didn’t agree that anything in Judea was Caesar’s.

    He believed the coins, which bore Ceasar’s face, belonged to Ceasar.

    More importantly, according to Christianity, Jesus was not an aspiring messiah, but God incarnate. God needn’t aspire to anything.

    Jesus’s flesh may have been that of a Jewish male of the Davidian line. But his spirt/soul was God, who existed before there were any Jews, or even any humans.

    His mission was to kick Roman ass out of the place …

    No, Christ came to save all humanity, Jew and Roman (and all gentiles) alike, from the penalty of sin.

    If you consider Christ non-divine, a mere human, then you might interpret him as a Jewish reformer or revolutionary.

    But if you consider Christ to be the Creator of all humanity, then his divine mission was greater than merely removing one earthly power, during one period of history, from a patch of land.

    As indicated at the beginning of John’s Gospel, God and Christ are one (yet separate), and all things were created through Christ.

  151. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Re: 174

    I am not a Christian historian but it seems to me Jesus was fulfilling all that was necessary to be seen as the Messiah.

    I view him as a failed revolutionary who couldn’t even get the Jewish leaders of his day on his side.

  152. Born Again Non-Voter

    I view him as a failed revolutionary who couldn’t even get the Jewish leaders of his day on his side.

    Not a failed revolutionary — because Jesus was no revolutionary. He made no attempt to instigate revolution, so he couldn’t have failed at it.

    Was he trying to get the money changers to “join his revolution” by throwing them out of the temple?

    Was he trying to get the Jewish leaders to “join his revolution” by incessantly criticizing them, calling them hypocrites?

    Jesus succeeded in his mission — to save humanity from sin by dying on the cross.

    This is why in The Passion of the Christ, at the moment Jesus dies, we cut to Satan screaming in rage. Because upon Jesus’ earthly death, Satan was defeated.

    Again, for those who do not accept Christ’s divinity or Christian theology, those who see Jesus only as a mortal revolutionary or reformer, none of this will make sense.

  153. Thomas L. Knapp

    “More importantly, according to Christianity, Jesus was not an aspiring messiah, but God incarnate.”

    According to the Pauline heresy, yes. According to actual early Christianity, a/k/a Judaism, no.

  154. Born Again Non-Voter

    According to the Pauline heresy, yes. According to actual early Christianity, a/k/a Judaism, no.

    According to almost all Christians throughout history, Paul’s teachings were in accord with “actual early Christianity,” as affirmed by the Council of Jerusalem ca. AD 50.

    Christianity is the Judaism of Jesus. “Christian” means “follower of Christ,” that is, of his teachings and interpretation of Judaism.

    The concept of a “Pauline heresy” is itself a heresy — an attempt to undermine Christianity by suggesting that all of Christianity since AD 50 got it wrong.

  155. Robert Capozzi

    My take on this interesting “render unto Caesar” discussion goes something like this:

    I’m skeptical that what we now call the “Bible” is authentic and accurate reportage. The document is thousands of years old, was assembled, translated, re-translated, edited and re-edited several times that we know of.

    Still, my working premise is there was a “Jesus” figure, and he was probably another in a series of enlightened people who’ve walked the Earth. That list might include people like Lao Tzu, Krishna, and Buddha. These people often spoke in non-literal ways, through parables and other easily subjectively interpreted words. Near as I can tell, they were not deontological and not absolutist, except, perhaps, when it came to metaphysical matters. Matters of “mammon” were open to a range of appropriate behaviors, in part because “mammon” was mostly a distraction. Higher matters — matters of the heart, soul, or essence – were their focus. With God/love/Tao in one’s heart, do what you feel inspired to do. Be kind, be loving, be virtuous as you walk the world, of course, but do so with love in one’s heart.

    “Render” makes little sense and seems very vague to a mind with deontological premises and modalities. That mind wants rules, dammit! If it’s Caesar’s, tell us! If it’s not, tell us that!

    But, if you consider another NT line: “Be in the world, but not of it,” a different picture emerges. What happens in the world of time and space doesn’t really matter. What happens in the world has almost nothing to do with us as individuals, anyway, since we have no control over such things. What MATTERS is whether what is in one’s heart, what one’s intention is. If you don’t think it’s Caesar’s and you feel moved to make a point, be a tax protester. If you don’t think it’s Caesar’s but you want to stay on the down-low, be a tax evader. If you don’t think it’s Caesar’s but you don’t like the risk of being caught, pay Caesar. There is no “rule” here, no “commandment.” Do what ya gotta do. Do it without guilt, with a clear conscience.

    So, I’d say Jesus was neither “political” or “apolitical.” My guess is he’d say, “It’s all good, just make sure your intentions are clear. Just do it with love, whatever you do.”

    To “restore the Kingdom of God” is not, by my interpretation, a matter of who is ruling a particular territory. It’s an emphatic suggestion to turn one’s heart and soul over to love and peace, and to do our best here in the world of mammon to be as virtuously inspired as we can be in our actions. If that means being an advocate for a stateless society, cool. If that means adopting a principled-engagement approach to roll back coercion when and where possible, cool, too. And, dare I say it, if someone believes peace means to expand the State, that’s even cool, but I do have a lot of questions about this approach!

    Hmm, maybe this is what was meant by “love your enemies”! Love Obama. Love Wayne Allyn Root. Love Murray Rothbard. I’d say it’s worth a try. ;-)

    (To those who say, “But Root said this on this date, then that on that date, then that on that date, he’s a liar!” I say, Consider going back to square one. Love your “enemies,” and try again. If you think Root is “evil,” consider whether your resistance is working out for you. If you feel love and peace in your heart from labeling Root a “liar,” then good for you! Personally, I’m skeptical.)

    Now, if we could only stop worrying!

  156. Thomas L. Knapp

    Bob,

    I don’t label things for the purpose of filling my heart with love and peace.

    I write “sugar” on the sugar canister and “rat poison” on the rat poison box so that I eat the sugar and the rats eat the rat poison instead of vice versa (or I used to, anyway — diabetes did change that equation up a bit).

    As far as “enemies” are concerned, I keep that list very short and fringe figures in small political parties don’t rate.

  157. Robert Capozzi

    tk188, excellent! If labels are serviceable contrivances to ease your way on the path of life, then I’m for it and I share that approach. If I want something sweetened, I reach for the “sugar” canister. If I want to kill rats, I use the contents labeled in the saying “rat poison.”

    Using pejoratives, however, when that pejorative can easily be applied to virtually everyone, doesn’t seem to work for my peace of mind. (I’ve not entirely broken the habit of employing pejoratives, btw. Working on it, though.) I’d suggest that pejoratives generally are used to separate and alienate from the object that I’m referring to. Your experience may well differ. Only you can really know what is true for you.

    I think you may not quite get what I’m suggesting, since you have the process backwards. First one fills one’s heart with love and peace, then we do things like labeling. What you DO doesn’t trigger love and peace, it’s a byproduct of love and peace, as best one can approximate it in mammon-land.

    It seems you’re implying that Root (and maybe even me!) don’t quite “rate” as enemies in your book. I wish for you that you can whittle that list down to at least one — yourself — since, as you may know, we are each our own worst enemy! And maybe — if things break right for you — none. (Here too I have no whittled the number down to zero!)

    If, OTOH, you feel that having enemies somehow makes your experience more satisfying, I wish you all the best on that track, too.

  158. Robert Capozzi

    190, I’m not a Bible scholar — I’ve only read passages — and I’ve tried to read this essay several times in recent years. Nowhere are there any reports where Jesus said he was an “anarchist,” so — based on that — my assumption is he wasn’t one. If he’d alluded to his holding a worldly opinion that a stateless society was the one and only “righteous” form for a civil social order, I’d certainly take that under advisement, but there are no explicit reports that he said anything like that. Lao Tzu never quite said that, either, to my knowledge. Buddha stayed even further away from matters political, near as I can tell.

    The discussion on pps 6-7 on the Golden Rule and the author’s “unalterably true” gymnastics I find utterly unpersuasive, so I stopped reading. I might want others to “take” a small portion of the fruits of my labor in order to maintain a semblance of domestic tranquility. At the moment, that seems like a reasonable trade-off to me.

    If someone wants to opt out of this arrangement, I’m OK with that, too.

    The day may come when domestic tranquility can be established without any “taking” at all. If it does, I reserve the right to change my mind.

  159. @191

    If you can’t manage to finish the article, there is very little point in discussing its contents or thesis.

    Not using the term anarchist, which as far as I know did not exist, proves nothing whatsoever.

    Neither does you finding an isolated portion of an essay that is supposed to be assessed as an integrated whole unpersuasive for unstated reasons.

    It’s as if you were looking at a blueprint and claimed that a certain portion in isolation seems unsupported (which may or may not be true), without looking to see whether the supposed lack of support is compensated for elsewhere.

    In any case, hopefully others here, including the person I was actually addressing in that comment, will have the patience to actually read the essay.

  160. Robert Capozzi

    192, are you seeking validation?

    Yes, there IS little point for me to waste time reading yet another tortured argument for anarcho-capitalism, this one based on assertions of “unalterable truth” that I don’t find to be at all true, no less! If the author wants us to buy his thesis, then it seems reasonable to expect that he will build his foundation on rock, not sand. Generally, we see the foundation in being laid in the beginning of an essay, and I found the mix WAY too watery and sandy. Maybe there’s some concrete in there somewhere.

    I’m already sold on the Golden Rule; using it to justify ACism is an epic fail for me, so — with limited time — one moves on to more useful endeavors, with any luck.

    All good, though…others may well benefit from this effort. I do appreciate the effort, actually.

  161. Gains

    To the unlabeled person asking us to read the essay… Are you the author and is critique welcome? What is your goal here?

  162. Ayn R. Key

    BANV@182

    “Render under to Caesar” still doesn’t mean respect the government if Jesus is on a spiritual instead of political mission. If spiritual, he replied to the trap laid by the pharisees with his own trap.

    The coins used in the temple had Caesar’s image on them, which was not allowed for temple use. When the pharisees tried to trap him with a charge of heresy OR treason, he trapped them with a charge of heresy instead.

  163. Robert Capozzi

    mhw, one man’s “normal warped” is another’s “brain food.” It is ALL good in this ‘hood, m’dude — another fringe benefit of being L.

  164. Tom Blanton

    If Lao Tzu, Buddah, and Jesus all rejected politics, it seems that would make them all anarchists in the most unhyphenated sense as anarchism is pure anti-politics.

    Under self-rule, individuals don’t play politics unless they suffer from some sort of multiple personality disorder.

    I still haven’t heard any real anarchists claim that anarchy is a monolithic political system that would bring about utopia or heaven on earth. It is those who want to impose political systems that control people through coercion who always seem to allude to utopian fantasies.

    That’s why I like libertarians who travel a path towards anarchy and dislike libertarians like Root who seem to be traveling on a circular path.

    I’m also not fond of grifters who peddle multi-level marketing success courses to people for thousands of dollars. But even that isn’t as bad as promoting hate-filled propaganda to ignorant crackers listening to talk radio while they claim to be promoting guns, God, gambling and tax cuts.

  165. Robert Capozzi

    tb, my feedback is that Lao Tzu, Buddha and Jesus probably didn’t actually “reject” politics. Lao Tzu wrote quite a bit about politics, mostly to counsel leaders to practice humility. Jesus certainly dabbled in them, too, but my take is that the “render unto” quote was another non-explicit “koan.” JC — if properly quoted — was not one to speak in absolutes, except perhaps when it came to love and peace.

    All three were mostly “above” politics, and instead were teachers of inter-personal ethics, epistemology, and metaphysics.

    I feel like Sally Fields winning the Academy Award right now….”you like me!” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D7KMAX-H4U

    ;-)

    Ouch on “ignorant crackers.” Tell us how you REALLY feel!

  166. Unlabeled person

    To the unlabeled person

    Ironic, from “Gains.” Why does a screen name like Gains make you more “labelled” than me, and if being “labelled” is a good thing, why? If it makes you feel better, you can call me Tony Rigatoni. Or whatever.

    asking us to read the essay… Are you the author

    No

    and is critique welcome?

    Yes

    What is your goal here?

    Responding to the comments I was addressing with contradicting evidence and seeking to improve my understanding.

    What’s yours?

  167. Gains

    TR @201: “Why does a screen name like Gains make you more “labelled” than me, and if being “labelled” is a good thing, why?”

    Just wanted something to call ya. Thank you Tony.

    “What is your goal here?”

    Learn, exercise and educate… in that order.

    I am enjoying the essay. Like RC said earlier in this thread, he makes some strong conclusion statements that I do not agree are are shown to be that valid. So far I have found reference to several places in the new testament that I did not have on my list of evidence Christ was a teaching a form of libertarians philosophy.

    Thanks for the link.

  168. LibertarianGirl

    BTW , I will do a little trip soon to the RedRock area and do a little indepth research on the area and then put out and ‘on the cheap’ report for food – transpo and such. close-by other motel/hotels is a stretch tho

  169. hm, interesting

    wtf happened to this thread?

    Someone mentioned Jeebus, I think. Time to throw the heretics in the lake of fire :-)

  170. Tom Blanton

    Ouch on “ignorant crackers.” Tell us how you REALLY feel!

    I am an ignorant cracker, so I am entitled to use that phrase. I have nothing but love in my heart for all ignorant crackers – it is those who preach hate to us ignorant crackers on talk radio that I object to.

  171. Michael H. Wilson

    Hell Tom boy I can out cracker you.
    My European relatives arrived in the late 1600s and moved from Delaware to the hills of Alabama. Sum of them were so fucked up they fought for the Yankees in the War against their own kin. Sum of them even married other kinds of people. That’s what we call Mutt people. Now that’s a Cracker. ;)

  172. Robert Capozzi

    tb, my feedback is you don’t seem especially “ignorant” to me, although we all are in some ways so. If you like the “cracker” label for yourself…your business. Personally, I’m not big on perpetuating pejorative labels.

    Good for you that you are feeling the love for your fellow “crackers.” Consider extending that love to all, even preachers of hate.

    Consider Gandhi’s wise (IMO) counsel:

    “Hate the sin, love the sinner.”

  173. Michael H. Wilson

    RC if my recall is correct, and there are always doubts about that, the word cracker is from the Irish and has to do with having a fun time, or being humorous. Having a crackin’ good time is a fun time in the world of Irish slang. Been years since I hung with my Boston Irish relatives but that seems to have been a word that was in use. ‘Course coudda been they be funnin’ me. ;)

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