As we all know, truth is stranger than fiction.
The inspiration for this post was in the comments on Political world reacts to news Lou Dobbs may run for President.
Dominick-CT wrote
The libertarian party should recruit Dobbs. Maybe the Libetarians would be able to get 5% in 2012
I responded
Don’t give them any ideas. I truly believe a significant portion of the party could be persuaded to do something that foolish. Sure, it sounds preposterous now, but then Bob Barr 2008 as a Libertarian presidential candidate would have sounded equally preposterous in 2005.
Mik Robertson replied
Maybe if Lou Dobbs would recant his previous unlibertarian positions, serve a couple of years on a body promoting the LP, and again recant his earlier positions and explicitly articulate the new positions to the caucuses, interests, and delegates in convention, maybe he would have a shot at the nomination just as Barr did.
And that’s when inspiration struck…
The following is merely a work of speculative fiction; any perceived barbs at the Bob Barr campaign are merely light hearted and humorous, and not in any way mean spirited or negative.
December, 2010 Lou Dobbs is recruited to fill a vacancy on the LNC. When asked about whether he has any interest in a presidential race, his answer for over a year after this is “absolutely not.”
June, 2011 Lou Dobbs publishes an article calling for a roundup of undocumented persons of Mexican and Central American origin. He cautions against deportation, pointing out that they’ll just sneak across the border again. Instead, he proposes that they be put to work as slaves to build a mile-deep ditch along the entire length of the Mexican border. When the ditch is completed, they will be thrown into it.
April, 2012 At the Heartland Libertarian conference, Lou Dobbs announces that he may, after all, seek the Libertarian nomination for president, but he is not ready to decide yet. At the press conference, I ask him whether he will be able to unite those people who admire him as an anti-immigration activist with those who like him for being a changed man. He says that he believes he can, and that the two groups agree on many other issues, which are, after all, more important.
An official announcement of candidacy is held off until two weeks before the nomination, and Dobbs skips all debates except for the televised debate where all questions are pre-screened and known in advance.
May, 2012 Pat Buchanan buys IPR and is booked as the keynote speaker at the LP National convention. My press credentials, along with Tom Knapp’s, are pulled. Articles and comments have to be cleared before appearing; the restrictions are lifted after the convention.
Lou Dobbs wins on the sixth and final ballot, edging out Steve Kubby in part thanks to an endorsement by his new VP candidate, Offer Shlomi AKA Vince Offer.
The LPHQ staff turns LP.org into a virtual gateway site for Dobbs2012.com, and some of the staff are actually relocated to Dobbs’ 300 acre horse farm in New Jersey. Their living quarters, along with the campaign HQ, are located in an unfurnished barn on the property, and LP staff are unofficially employed after hours in cleaning up after the horses at no extra pay, and sleep on bales of hay.
Sptember, 2012 At a joint press conference called by Ron Paul and Jesse Ventura, Dobbs promises to appear alongside the Green and Constitution Party candidates and Ralph Nader, but skips at the last minute in favor of his own separate press conference afterwards, explaining that the Greens are running Matt Gonzalez, and he would “never appear on stage with those kinds of people.” His deputy campaign manager is overheard telling Paul and Ventura staffers and family members to “go fuck yourselves.”
October, 2012 David Duke is assassinated in Vienna by the son of a holocaust survivor. Lou Dobbs issues a glowing eulogy, describing Duke as an unsung American hero.
Dobbs2012.com starts using the word “Libertarian” on its front page.
November, 2012 Dobbs-Shlomi get 575,000 votes, 0.4% of the total votes cast in the presidential race.
December, 2012 It is revealed that the Dobbs-Shlomi campaign is $500,000 in debt, and will not share its list with LPHQ until all debts are settled. Vince Shlomi denies any involvement, revealing that the Dobbs campaign kept him completely out of the loop on all decisionmaking and steered him away from the media.
Robert Capozzi replied,
But can you do one for the Blanton/Davidson ticket? Something involving Guy Fawkes costumes and rebar? Rather than run a campaign, the dynamic duo decide to take jackhammers to Mt Rushmore while reciting Triple-H passages on the relative benefits of monarchism.
Russki Belushki responded…
May, 2010 Radicals win a decisive victory in St. Louis.
At the post-convention LNC meeting, it is decided that all ballot access for 2012 will be handled by Sean Haugh, Scott Kohlhaas and Christina Tobin.
June, 2010 After a series of extremist statements by new LNC chair Angela Keaton, Wayne Root and many others withdraw from the Libertarian Party.
May, 2012 The LPnational convention is held in Richmond, Virginia (the capital of the Confederacy). 145 people are in attendance. Tom Blanton wanders in by mistake. He didn’t know the LP was meeting there, he was actually looking to crash a wedding in one of the hotel’s other meeting rooms. Somebody gets him drunk and stoned and he somehow agrees to run for president as a joke.
Blanton beats Tom Knapp for president on the first ballot with 78 votes, 62 for Knapp, 4 for Joy Waymire and one for Robert Milnes.
Jim Davidson, recently released from a Panamanian mental hospital prison ward, rounds out the ticket. In a joint statement from the podium, the presidential and VP nominees declare “we are not going to vote for ourselves or anyone, and neither should anyone else.”
June, 2012 They put up the campaign website. It’s a wordpress blog.
The last remaining LP assets are confiscated to pay off unpaid judgements awarded to creditors.
July, 2012 Blanton can’t be reached for over a month. The LNC holds an emergency meeting and appoints Davidson as the presidential candidate.
Davidson holds a press conference on the white house lawn in a Guy Fawkes mask and is put in the DC jail when he refuses to take it off on the orders of the Secret Service and MPD.
October, 2012 Davidson makes bail and travels to South Dakota. He is arrested by park rangers while beating the statues of Mt. Rushmore with a piece of rebar as he reads aloud from Hans H. Hoppe’s Democracy: The God That Failed.
November, 2012 The Blanton-Davidson ticket, on the ballot in 27 states, gets 182,000 votes, 0.13% of the total votes cast.
December, 2012 The LNC votes unanimously to dissolve the party.
OK, readers, your turn now…write your own fictional scenario for 2010, 2012, or any point in the future in the comments.
This exercise is not limited to the Libertarians; feel free to make up your own scenarios featuring the entire wild and wacky world of independent and alternative party politics…
60 responses so far ↓
1 Don Lake .......... More Libs Lacking a Lib Perspective // Dec 26, 2009 at 3:43 pm
Geeeeeeeeee, I am still grieving ’bout P2008!
2 Robert Capozzi // Dec 26, 2009 at 4:03 pm
- The St. Louis Accord resolution will pass in convention in 2010, where Hinckle will win the Chair’s race.
- A nuclear weapon will be detonated in South Asia or the ME.
- An assassination attempt on Obama will fail, but he will not run for re-election.
- Gary Johnson will not raise enough money to make a serious showing the early GOP primaries.
- Alex Jones will be the Constitution Party candidate in 2012. His slogan: “Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you.”
- Lou Dobbs plays it safe and runs for the Senate as a Republican. He wins, and the Senate goes 50/50.
- Wayne Root becomes a top 10 radio host, and decides to not run for president.
3 Robert Capozzi // Dec 26, 2009 at 4:09 pm
…more…
- On his deathbed, a major paleo-libertarian divulges that Murray Rothbard was the author of the offensive passages in the Ron Paul newsletters.
- A L will be elected to a state legislature.
- A GOP congressman will quit the Rs, claim he’s an L, but will not stand for re-election.
4 LibertarianGirl // Dec 26, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Jim Duensing recieves millions in a settlement from the LVMPD for trying to murder him and uses the money to run a successful senate campaign and unseats Harry Reid.
5 LocustEaterForPeace // Dec 26, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Unfortunately, what you describe is less bizarre than some happenings within the LP I’ve observed over the years.
This is why I stay out of national LP issues. There are more nutballs on the top than birthers at a Birch Society meeting.
6 Andy // Dec 26, 2009 at 4:40 pm
http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/new-lou-dobbs-proposes-amnesty-plan-i
The New Lou Dobbs Proposes Amnesty Plan for Illegal Immigrants. Say What?
By Susie Madrak Wednesday Nov 25, 2009 3:00pm
Talk about extreme makeovers! No, I’m not making this up. It’ll be a lot of fun to watch the right-wing exploding heads:
Former CNN anchor Lou Dobbs, pondering a future in politics, is trying to wipe away his image as an enemy of Latino immigrants by positioning himself as a champion of that fast-growing ethnic bloc.
Mr. Dobbs, who left the network last week, has said in recent days that he is considering a third-party run for a New Jersey Senate seat in 2012, or possibly for president. Polls show voters unhappy with both parties, and strategists believe Mr. Dobbs could tap populist anger over economy issues just as Ross Perot did in the 1990s.
First, though, Mr. Dobbs is working to repair what a spokesman conceded is a glaring flaw: His reputation for antipathy toward Latino immigrants. In a little-noticed interview Friday, Mr. Dobbs told Spanish-language network Telemundo he now supports a plan to legalize millions of undocumented workers, a stance he long lambasted as an unfair “amnesty.”
“Whatever you have thought of me in the past, I can tell you right now that I am one of your greatest friends and I mean for us to work together,” he said in a live interview with Telemundo’s Maria Celeste. “I hope that will begin with Maria and me and Telemundo and other media organizations and others in this national debate that we should turn into a solution rather than a continuing debate and factional contest.”
Mr. Dobbs twice mentioned a possible legalization plan for the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in the U.S., saying at one point that “we need the ability to legalize illegal immigrants under certain conditions.”
Mr. Dobbs couldn’t be reached Tuesday. Spokesman Bob Dilenschneider said Mr. Dobbs draws a distinction between illegal immigrants who have committed crimes since arriving in the U.S. and those who are “living upright, positive and constructive lives” who should be “integrated” into society. He said Mr. Dobbs recognizes the political importance of Latinos and is “smoothing the water and clearing the air.”
Boy, some political consultants are really going to earn their pay on this one!
7 Libervention Debate Club // Dec 26, 2009 at 4:57 pm
2012 is far too short-term. I challenge my fellow Libertarians to describe, at whatever level of detail and plausibility they can muster, their most optimistic scenario for maximizing liberty in their lifetime.
I’d take up this challenge myself, but I have an unfair advantage, as in 2006 I received a time-traveling email sent by myself from the year 2041. The parts of it that I’m willing to divulge to the public are here: http://knowinghumans.net/2006/07/resigning-from-libertarian-party.html
8 Trent Hill // Dec 26, 2009 at 4:59 pm
“- On his deathbed, a major paleo-libertarian divulges that Murray Rothbard was the author of the offensive passages in the Ron Paul newsletters.”
Why would he do that? It’s fairly well-known at this point that it was Rockwell, on orders from Rothbard.
9 Robert Capozzi // Dec 26, 2009 at 7:10 pm
ldc, in their final campaign stunt, the ticket of Blanton/Davidson impale themselves on the Statue of Liberty in NY Harbor. Despite the fact that they have Todd Andrew Barnett tape the event, with them saying “Remember OK City/Remember Waco,” the nation — wracked with double-digit inflation and a 20% unemployment rate — has a sympathetic reaction to their Apocalyptic Visions.
WWIII rages in the Middle East. The newly launched Peace Channel — an Internet TV sensation — creates sympathy for a REAL third party, a transmogrified LP with green insights. They win several seats in 2014, and by 2020, they choose the first L Speaker of the House.
10 Robert Capozzi // Dec 26, 2009 at 7:17 pm
th, I’ve never heard that it was Rockwell ordered by Rothbard. Interesting. Any sources for the theory…?
11 Bill Wood // Dec 26, 2009 at 7:26 pm
The Libertarian Party folds because its voting Members decide that none of the LP Members are “Libertarian” enough to be Members of the LP.
12 Tom Blanton // Dec 26, 2009 at 7:56 pm
A lot of this talk reminds me of a riddle wrapped in another riddle:
1. Why did the anarchist cross the road?
2. Why did the minarchist cross the road?
13 Tom Blanton // Dec 26, 2009 at 7:56 pm
Answers:
1. To get to the other side.
2. The minarchist didn’t cross the road because he was afraid somebody might think he was an anarchist and he wasn’t sure if he would make it anyway.
14 Steven R Linnabary // Dec 26, 2009 at 8:05 pm
lol…
I hope you don’t mind if I steal that??
Pacem en Terris
15 LocustEaterForPeace // Dec 26, 2009 at 8:26 pm
Bill, that’s a pretty good assessment of the LP.
16 LibertarianGirl // Dec 26, 2009 at 8:28 pm
i already facebooked it , good oneTB
17 LocustEaterForPeace // Dec 26, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Tom, got another riddle for you. Why won’t Libertarians commit suicide?
L.N. Smith provides an answer…
18 LocustEaterForPeace // Dec 26, 2009 at 8:40 pm
…”A libertarian is a person who believes that no one has the right, under any circumstances, to initiate force against another human being for any reason whatever; nor will a libertarian advocate the initiation of force, or delegate it to anyone else.”
How come the Mary Ruwart/Dr. Kevorkian faction aren’t engaged in bitter battle with the Z.A.P. and N.A.P. and K.N.A.P.P. faction right now?
19 Thomas M. Sipos // Dec 26, 2009 at 8:43 pm
The LP attains relevance.
20 Darryl W. Perry // Dec 26, 2009 at 8:54 pm
2012 – Thomas L. Knapp wins the LP nomination on the 7th ballot over WAR after Keaton/Shingal throw their support behind him. Incumbent US Senator Jim Duensing is chosen as VP running mate. The Knapp/Duensing ticket is cross-nominated by the BTP.
WAR bolts to the Constitution Party, is no successful in obtaining their nomination so he calls Alan Keyes, who gives the AIP nomination to WAR.
Robert Milnes creates his own party, gets on the ballot in Colorado after finding 9 people to be Electors and paying the $500 filing fee.
Ron Paul again seeks the GOP nomination, Hannity, Beck & O’Reilly embrace him, but not as much as they embrace Sarah Palin, who wins the nomination; who in an act of confusion and desperation names Micheal Steele her running-mate.
Ron Paul’s Campaign for Liberty drops it’s goal of “reforming the GOP” and instead campaigns on behalf of Libertarian, BTP & Constitution Party candidates. Neither House of Congress has a single party with a majority.
The day after the 2012 elections, Darryl W. Perry purchases an RV and begins a 4 year long Presidential campaign – traveling to all corners of the USA, eventually capturing a rare triple nomination – LP, BTP & CP – and a ballot listing on 49 States and DC – failing to overcome the horrendous ballot access laws in Oklahoma.
21 Spence // Dec 26, 2009 at 9:09 pm
Why? I like your 2nd scenario very much. 2012 can’t come soon enough. Fuck the LP and fuck Paulie.
22 Third Party Revolution // Dec 26, 2009 at 9:14 pm
This is a really good question. I think I might need a while to think about it. All that I can say is this:
2010: Third parties have their best showings, with some groups and independents getting elected to high ranking offices, the Vermont Progressive Party takes control over the state government, Ron Paul is re-elected as a libertarian and with a few other libertarians elected forms the Libertarian Party Caucus with Ron Paul as House Minority Leader.
23 Vortex of Freedom // Dec 26, 2009 at 11:30 pm
Nothing weird will happen in 2010 or in 2012. (And the sun will rise in the west).
24 Catholic Trotskyist // Dec 27, 2009 at 12:23 am
No scenarios mentioning me yet?
In February 2010, Eric Dondero converts to Islam and decides to reform his political beliefs again. Reconciling with Ron Paul, they persuade Ralph Nader to retire from politics. Catholic Trotskyist, The Last Conservative, Don Lake, Robert Milnes and Eric Dondero began building their political bases outside of IPR and by the time of the 2010 libertarian convention, their support has grown to the millions. Deciding to act collectively, they join the Libertarian, Green and Constitution parties on mass. Thousands of people in this new political movement storm the Libertarian convention. Electing Catholic Trotskyist as chair of the LNC, they abolish the libertarian platform, saying that anyone in the party can believe whatever they feel like. Reconciling with Ron Paul, Eric Dondero invites him to take the Libertarian presidential nomination, and that this will be decided in 2010 rather than 2012, so he can start his campaign early. Taking Dennis Kucinich as his running mate, Pauland Kucinich campaign relentlessly for the next two years. Catholic Trotskyist and Robert Milnes often disagree with the candidates, but they understand that compromises need to be made, and are glad to have high positions within the campaign and a large supply of luxuries. Wayne Allyn Root switches to the Republican Party, as do most Democrats, realizing that the anti-corporatists may be a real threat so the corporatists need to unite into one party once and for all. Wayne Allyn Root becomes the presidential nominations of the Democratic and Republican parties, and agrees to take Barack Obama on as his running mate.
Paul/Kucinich overwhelmingly defeats Root/Obama. Everyone else can come up with who will be in which cabinet position.
25 Robert Capozzi // Dec 27, 2009 at 6:56 am
tb 12, funny. But there should be a 1a and 1b.
1a is the nihilist anarchist, who insists s/he can leap across the road in a single bound. S/he keeps leaping from the curb, but falling to the pavement 2 feet away.
1b is the lessarchist anarchist. S/he takes things one step at a time, successfully crossing the street in 30 seconds.
1a, being an angrytarian as well as a nihilist, castigates 1b for being a sell-out for walking normally like the rest of the human race. “‘Real’ anarchists leap across the street,” 1a exclaims, “you f-ing evil sell out. It took you a whole 30 seconds, I’m going to leap over in 2.”
1b looks back at 1a with compassion, suggesting that there are some excellent anti-psychotic meds on the market now. 1a invokes L. Neil Smith’s infamous ill will, suggesting 1b “walk into traffic.”
26 Robert Capozzi // Dec 27, 2009 at 7:20 am
During his LNC Chair campaign, George Phillies uncovers a receipt for a box of staples purchased by the Natl Office. He’s outraged, since they breached their fiduciary duty by buying the box for $5.50. He produces a report that shows that staples can be purchased for as little as $4.50, an 18.2% savings! “With an 18.2% savings, compounded over 50 years, we COULD finance the WV ballot access drive in 2064. These spendthrift ways must end, here and now, in St. Louis.”
27 Don Lake .......... More Libs Lacking a Lib Perspective // Dec 27, 2009 at 7:35 am
Is it true that Doctor Phillies is his own worst enemy ??????
28 Darcy G Richardson // Dec 27, 2009 at 9:23 am
Given the growing disgust with the two major parties this may sound a bit counterintuitive, but I don’t think anything positive will happen in the 2010 mid-term elections, at least from a third-party perspective.
The only serious threat to the entrenched duopoly, if it happens at all, will probably come from a band of crazed, right-wing and racist Teabaggers — the last folks on Earth anyone with half a brain would want to see seriously challenge the two major parties next year.
Sadly, the country’s nationally-organized third parties — especially the Libertarians and the Greens — will be nothing more than a footnote in the 2010 mid-term elections. And that’ll be tragic.
It’s later than we think. America’s best days are far behind her. Middle and working-class Americans have little to look forward to in a nation whose political leaders — Democrats and Republicans alike — have pampered the affluent and wealthy for nearly three decades while leaving everybody else behind. It’s little wonder that we have a $12 trillion debt and red ink for as far as the eyes can see, and then some…
Entire generations of Americans will be in debt, subsidizing wealthy citizens of their own country, corporations and foreign countries, many of which they won’t even be able to locate on a map.
Unfortunately, most third-party activists don’t even understand what the real issues are…
In any case, I’d hate to be a young person these days, those now facing a choice between a future between one party that believes the government has the answer to all of the country’s woes and another party that doesn’t even recognize that there are any problems — a party in a kind of Katrina-inspired state of denial.
Remember the future.
29 Darcy G Richardson // Dec 27, 2009 at 9:29 am
“between a future of one party that believes…” I should have finished my first cup of coffee before submitting the above comment.
In any case, as the lyric said, “Remember the future!”
30 Adrian // Dec 27, 2009 at 9:30 am
In 2010, libertarians wise up and start courting leftists for a change, not conservatives. They take back the term “liberal”.
In 2012, they also claim “progressive”, as a true progressive knows that progress comes from more liberty, less government. Gary Johnson is elected president.
31 Darcy G Richardson // Dec 27, 2009 at 10:20 am
Forget Gary Johnson. Tom Knapp is the last best hope. He gets it…
32 Trent Hill // Dec 27, 2009 at 11:22 am
“th, I’ve never heard that it was Rockwell ordered by Rothbard. Interesting. Any sources for the theory…?”
Not that I can divulge, but it’s a pretty open secret in the D.C. think-tank world. Rockwell often ghost-wrote for the Ron Paul Report.
33 Tom Blanton // Dec 27, 2009 at 11:33 am
Capozzi opines:
“tb 12, funny. But there should be a 1a and 1b.”
Maybe in your mind there should be a 1a and 1b, but in reality these people are virtually non-existent.
They are the product of someone who confuses reductio ad absurdum with absurd hyperbole.
Bubby, you might do well to read what Mr. Richardson says at #28, especially, “Unfortunately, most third-party activists don’t even understand what the real issues are…”
When you are taking baby-steps across the eight-lane super highway of American statism while looking over your shoulder to see if your statist friends agree with your contrived rhetoric, you should not wonder why that sixteen-wheeler of entrenched politics keeps running you down.
Crossing great divides in a single bound is for Superman and that is what comic books are made of. If you want freedom, you need to grasp it whenever and wherever you can. It requires choices that may not be popular among your statist friends, may not lead to state-sanctioned prosperity within the collectivist society, and may cost you in terms of receiving benefits from the government.
It shouldn’t take 30, 40 or 50 years to figure out that you will never get across the road without taking risks and paying some price. Projecting your fears and anger onto others won’t get you across the road. Inventing half-clever pejoratives followed by the suffix “atarian” won’t even get you off the curb.
We all know what it means when someone does the same thing over and over again expecting different results. Perhaps, this idea being applied to political organizations, should be known as the third party syndrome.
Is it any wonder that third parties lose when they insist on playing a game following all the “rules” when their opponents make all the rules – both legally and in terms of social constructs.
34 Tom Blanton // Dec 27, 2009 at 11:40 am
Capozzi @ #25:
“1b is the lessarchist anarchist. S/he takes things one step at a time, successfully crossing the street in 30 seconds.”
30 seconds?
I’m assuming this is in the same world where geese lay golden eggs.
35 Robert Capozzi // Dec 27, 2009 at 11:45 am
tb: It shouldn’t take 30, 40 or 50 years to figure out that you will never get across the road without taking risks and paying some price.
me: Yes, I favor risk-taking. In L circles, the “safe” approach is to wrap oneself in the sanctimony of “principle” and advocate things that no one — often not even the advocate! — believes that will not happen. The Ivory Tower approach is the low-risk, low-reward MO. Playing parlor games about what a “libertarian society” might look like takes no chances; advocating realistic steps to roll back the State to non-Ls is where the risks need to be taken…IMO, of course.
36 Robert Capozzi // Dec 27, 2009 at 11:50 am
tb 34, in the metaphor, yes, 30 seconds. Rolling back the State to Nozickian levels? 50+ years, with a lot of things breaking right. Hoppean levels? The question is better asked in 50 years.
37 libertariangirl // Dec 27, 2009 at 11:54 am
From D. Nolan:
“The anarchist believed that the concept of “roads” is an artificial construct by the bankster/fascist elite to control free people. He therefore wanders across them if and when it suits his purposes. The minarchist, in contrast, accepts the concept of roads as legitimate but wants to privatize them. Thus, he waits patiently for that day to arrive. Hope that clears it up!”
38 Thomas L. Knapp // Dec 27, 2009 at 12:16 pm
“advocating realistic steps to roll back the State to non-Ls is where the risks need to be taken”
Sounds good to me. Of course, there’s a difference between “realistic steps to roll back the state” and “slapping a libertarian label on ideas to reconfigure the state for preferred social engineering outcomes” (such as targeted tax credits for people who spend their money on the things you think they should spend it on).
39 Robert Capozzi // Dec 27, 2009 at 12:29 pm
tk, thanks. There may we be further strains of lessarchist anarchists. 1bi’s such as myself are “take what we can get/all things considered”-arians, provided that — in this case — targeted tax credits stands a good chance of moving the flow toward liberty. So, expanding IRAs coupled with an increase in the personal exemption might be a 1bi solution.
Near as I can tell, you’re more of a 1bii-er. You take a more BTP platform approach, although you do seem to prefer bottom-up strategies to roll back the State. You COULD be accused of being a social engineer by some for your bottom-up views, but then so could I, since I prefer bottom-up solutions, too. There’s lots of good reasons on a lot of levels for a L to be prefer bottom-up reforms.
It’s all good, though.
40 libertariangirl // Dec 27, 2009 at 12:38 pm
I love bottoms up!! MMmmmm…lol
41 Thomas L. Knapp // Dec 27, 2009 at 1:14 pm
“targeted tax credits stands a good chance of moving the flow toward liberty”
I’ve asked over and over again for anyone to explain how “target tax credits move the flow toward liberty,” and I don’t recall anyone taking a shot at it yet.
So, I’ll try again: Please explain how “the government will take $X from you unless you spend $Y on something the government wants you to spend it on (almost certainly at the rent-seeking behest of the provider of that thing), in which case the government will take $X – $Y from you and $X + $Y from someone else” “moves the flow toward liberty.”
42 Thomas L. Knapp // Dec 27, 2009 at 1:23 pm
“You COULD be accused of being a social engineer by some for your bottom-up views”
Maybe so — but if so, I don’t sacrifice actually reducing the size, scope and power of government to my social engineering desires.
For example, my “bottom up tax cuts” proposal cuts everyone’s taxes and, at whatever point those cuts put us on the left side of the Laffer Curve, government revenues.
Is there a “social engineering side” to that? I don’t know. My hypothesis is that if taxes are cut from the bottom up and welfare from the top down, there’ll be less of a class warfare argument to be made against cutting taxes and welfare. That’s a “doability” argument, not intended to address the desirability of the approach from a social standpoint.
Recombobulating how and from whom taxes are collected in order to encourage (for example) retirement savings, the purchase of health insurance, or home construction, on the other hand, are “social engineering” policies that don’t cut the size, scope or power of government at all.
43 republican interested in third parties // Dec 27, 2009 at 2:19 pm
A little off topic but I heard the Jefferson Republican party is a splinter group from the COnstitution party is this true?
44 Robert Capozzi // Dec 27, 2009 at 2:34 pm
tk, 2 reasons:
1) I’d rather people keep their money vs. the government getting it, even with strings attached.
2) Alternative institutions need to spring up to phase the State out of a range of functions, such as retirement, health care, and education.
45 paulie // Dec 27, 2009 at 3:11 pm
I may be working in Vegas pretty soon, we can maybe do something like that.
46 Tom Blanton // Dec 27, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Are you doing exotic dancing now, Paulie?
47 paulie // Dec 27, 2009 at 3:39 pm
Spence,
Why not? If you have nothing to contribute – and it is apparent that you don’t – it would be good if you didn’t say anything at all; or, since you keep insisting that this site is low quality and so forth, just leave entirely and don’t come back. Why do you keep coming back here? Something must be drawing your attention. Don’t you have anything better to do?
You don’t have what it takes, boy.
What was it you said on another thread? Oh yeah…
Well, here you are back here again, after you pouted and took your toys home.
Why? Did nobody follow you there? LOL.
And yet you are still here again, doing nothing but whining, and you still have nothing to offer.
Just keep in mind that you are the one commenting on my posts – not vice versa. That should tell you everything you need to know.
You make it too easy, Spence. Makes me feel like I’m whipping a retarded, malnourished child who has narcolepsy. Oh, the guilt!
48 paulie // Dec 27, 2009 at 3:41 pm
Are you doing exotic dancing now, Paulie?
LOL, no. Petitioning, as usual.
49 Thomas L. Knapp // Dec 27, 2009 at 4:08 pm
Bob,
You write:
“I’d rather people keep their money vs. the government getting it, even with strings attached.”
But tax credits don’t do that, at least on, to use a word you and Brian are devoted to, “net.” Unless a tax credit has a matching spending cut, then it’s not that “people keep their money,” it’s that some people (Group A, who are doing whatever it is you think they should be doing with their money keep more of their money “in return” for some other people (Group B, who are doing what they damn well please with their money instead of what you’d like them to do with it) keeping less of their money.
“2) Alternative institutions need to spring up to phase the State out of a range of functions, such as retirement, health care, and education.”
The key phrase here is “phase out.” An “alternative institution” which keeps the state in charge of things but just plays some of your favorite favorites isn’t “phasing out” anything, or even moving in that direction. It’s just rearranging the stuff on the state’s table without taking anything off the state’s table.
To put it a different way, it’s like sitting in the parking lot with the engine running, revving the accelerator every once in awhile but keeping it in park, and explaining that you’re doing that because you want to do something that gets you closer to Detroit.
You’re never going to get a damn inch closer to Detroit until you start driving toward Detroit, even if you put a tennis ball on top of your antenna and buy some of those fake sheepskin seat covers for your seats and crank the stereo up REAL LOUD.
50 Kimberly Wilder // Dec 27, 2009 at 8:46 pm
The Gotham Gazette did a post with predictions from various politicos…loved this one from Doug Muzzio…(you might have to be a NYer to truly appreciate it):
http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/fea/20091221/202/3133
from Doug Muzzio, professor at Baruch College
“David Paterson resigns; Richard Ravitch becomes governor. Ravitch appoints Eliot Spitzer lieutenant governor. Ravitch resigns; Spitzer becomes governor. Spitzer names Paterson lieutenant governor. ”
LOL!
51 republican interested in third parties // Dec 28, 2009 at 10:28 am
ALan keyes will form the mpslffp or the mosh pit surfing league for former politicians and he leaves politics to pursue mosh piting full time. He wins title beating Bob Barr, Wayne Allyn Root, and Chuck Baldwin.
52 Don Lake .......... More Libs Lacking a Lib Perspective // Dec 28, 2009 at 3:16 pm
My dream is that Dems and or republicaninterestedinthirdparties
go back to the hole from which they came from, get the anti Duopoly Establishment fever, and come back when you have the real true ‘religion’
instead of just ‘playing at it’……
If you are Dem or GOP what the $&@%#$ are you doing here ??????????
53 Aroundtheblockafewtimes // Dec 28, 2009 at 3:33 pm
After another typical vote total in 2012, The Nolan reconvenes the people who gathered in his living room in 1971. They issue a fatwa against all the people who corrupted the vision of the LP as originally set forth by Nolan.
Chairman Starr goes into hiding, accompanied by virtually all the remaining members of the LP.
54 Robert Capozzi // Dec 28, 2009 at 4:47 pm
tk 49, my analogy differs. How’s this? People live in an government project. The building has the typical problems associated with projects, but the residents can’t move elsewhere without leaving town. I’d like to see other dwelling places available rather than making them homeless.
55 republican interested in third parties // Dec 29, 2009 at 1:46 pm
- Mr. Lake I support ballot access reform and I’m interested in all forms of politics. Plus third parties have influenced elections in the past.
56 republican interested in third parties // Dec 29, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Why do you even care if I read this blog or not?
57 paulie // Dec 29, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Ignore lake, most of us here welcome Rs and Ds who are interested in alternatives. Many of us started out in those categories (ex-Democrat in my case).
58 Thomas L. Knapp // Dec 29, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Bob,
Yes, your analogy differs, because we’re talking about two different things.
I’m talking about reducing the size, scope and power of the state.
You’re talking about accommodations to make living under the state as it is easier.
There’s not necessarily anything wrong with the latter goal, but it shouldn’t be confused with the former goal. They’re two different goals.
What I’ve asked for from you is some argument or evidence for the proposition that achieving the latter goal is a “stepping stone” toward achieving the former goal, which seems to be your position.
59 Don Grundmann // Dec 29, 2009 at 2:58 pm
republican interested in third parties – Have you investigated the Constitution Party?
Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party
60 Third Party Revolution // Dec 30, 2009 at 12:47 pm
@43, yes it is true.
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