Comments on: Poli-Tea raises the important question of low voter turnout and third parties http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/11/poli-tea-raises-the-important-question-of-low-voter-turnout-and-third-parties/ Covering America's third parties and independent candidates since May 2008 Tue, 14 Feb 2012 03:58:09 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Dave Schwab http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/11/poli-tea-raises-the-important-question-of-low-voter-turnout-and-third-parties/comment-page-1/#comment-131115 Dave Schwab Thu, 19 Nov 2009 01:24:31 +0000 http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=10779#comment-131115 In Russia in the early 1990s, there was an option to cast your vote "against all". They got rid of it, apparently because it was more popular than they expected. On a related note, Ralph Nader has been a vocal proponent of a binding none-of-the-above option on ballots. In Russia in the early 1990s, there was an option to cast your vote “against all”. They got rid of it, apparently because it was more popular than they expected.

On a related note, Ralph Nader has been a vocal proponent of a binding none-of-the-above option on ballots.

]]> By: Nate http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/11/poli-tea-raises-the-important-question-of-low-voter-turnout-and-third-parties/comment-page-1/#comment-130892 Nate Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:46:06 +0000 http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=10779#comment-130892 @19: Susan, I guess we have differing opinions on what "none of the above" means. You seem to think it means "noone" and I think it means "someone other than those listed above." The truth of the matter is that we're both wrong, but combining our views would cover all the bases. I wouldn't mind seeing both NOONE and NOTA on every ballot: Choose one: A B Leave office unfilled None of the above @19: Susan,

I guess we have differing opinions on what “none of the above” means. You seem to think it means “noone” and I think it means “someone other than those listed above.” The truth of the matter is that we’re both wrong, but combining our views would cover all the bases. I wouldn’t mind seeing both NOONE and NOTA on every ballot:

Choose one:
A
B
Leave office unfilled
None of the above

]]> By: Ross Levin http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/11/poli-tea-raises-the-important-question-of-low-voter-turnout-and-third-parties/comment-page-1/#comment-130691 Ross Levin Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:21:14 +0000 http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=10779#comment-130691 Brandon, I completely disagree. A lot of people don't even know that these elections happen - just telling everyone in a community about the election is often enough to change the outcome. Brandon, I completely disagree. A lot of people don’t even know that these elections happen – just telling everyone in a community about the election is often enough to change the outcome.

]]> By: Brandon Trent http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/11/poli-tea-raises-the-important-question-of-low-voter-turnout-and-third-parties/comment-page-1/#comment-130684 Brandon Trent Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:59:16 +0000 http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=10779#comment-130684 VA turnout is exceptionally low in local races or when there is election of only the House and the Senate. Alot of people I talked to about the Governors race said they just dont vote. When asked why the response was "Its not really all that important" Its a sad thing....but the reality is you cant force people to vote one way or the other. We have to target those who do vote in order to make an impact and thats where the third parties have failed. VA turnout is exceptionally low in local races or when there is election of only the House and the Senate. Alot of people I talked to about the Governors race said they just dont vote. When asked why the response was “Its not really all that important” Its a sad thing….but the reality is you cant force people to vote one way or the other. We have to target those who do vote in order to make an impact and thats where the third parties have failed.

]]> By: Robert Milnes http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/11/poli-tea-raises-the-important-question-of-low-voter-turnout-and-third-parties/comment-page-1/#comment-130677 Robert Milnes Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:41:05 +0000 http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=10779#comment-130677 Susan, what is your opinion on the PLAS EXperiment in MA & CA in January. Not that I care or anything. Susan, what is your opinion on the PLAS EXperiment in MA & CA in January. Not that I care or anything.

]]> By: Thomas L. Knapp http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/11/poli-tea-raises-the-important-question-of-low-voter-turnout-and-third-parties/comment-page-1/#comment-130676 Thomas L. Knapp Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:39:51 +0000 http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=10779#comment-130676 "Also when it appeared likely Daggett might swing the election to Corzine" That's sort of like saying "when it appeared that yellow was the same color as burnt umber." The polls I saw said that a majority of voters polling for Daggett had Corzine as their second choice. Thus, anything that hurt Daggett helped Corzine, not Christie. “Also when it appeared likely Daggett might swing the election to Corzine”

That’s sort of like saying “when it appeared that yellow was the same color as burnt umber.”

The polls I saw said that a majority of voters polling for Daggett had Corzine as their second choice. Thus, anything that hurt Daggett helped Corzine, not Christie.

]]> By: Robert Milnes http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/11/poli-tea-raises-the-important-question-of-low-voter-turnout-and-third-parties/comment-page-1/#comment-130671 Robert Milnes Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:34:53 +0000 http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=10779#comment-130671 Ross Levin @20, right. When activists go around MA & CA knocking on doors explaining the PLAS, voter registration can be one of the items discussed. Whether it is too late for that particular election or not. Ross Levin @20, right. When activists go around MA & CA knocking on doors explaining the PLAS, voter registration can be one of the items discussed. Whether it is too late for that particular election or not.

]]> By: robert capozzi http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/11/poli-tea-raises-the-important-question-of-low-voter-turnout-and-third-parties/comment-page-1/#comment-130667 robert capozzi Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:18:48 +0000 http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=10779#comment-130667 sh, my inner anarchist one ups you: all offices should require a super-majority of all registered voters or remain unfilled. Those who ARE elected can be thrown in jail, as being elected is evidence of criminal intent ;-) sh, my inner anarchist one ups you: all offices should require a super-majority of all registered voters or remain unfilled. Those who ARE elected can be thrown in jail, as being elected is evidence of criminal intent ;-)

]]> By: d.eris http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/11/poli-tea-raises-the-important-question-of-low-voter-turnout-and-third-parties/comment-page-1/#comment-130666 d.eris Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:15:50 +0000 http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=10779#comment-130666 Solomon @18: in the "analysis" I did intentionally leave out mention of Daggett's showing in the race. But that was the point, sort of. As you say, "he received little more than 5% which less than Christie’s margin of victory." On the other hand, the 55% or so of registered voters who did not bother to vote represent more than twice the margin between Daggett and Christie. If Daggett had been able to convince 1 out of 2 non-voters to vote for him, he would have won. Solomon @18: in the “analysis” I did intentionally leave out mention of Daggett’s showing in the race. But that was the point, sort of. As you say, “he received little more than 5% which less than Christie’s margin of victory.” On the other hand, the 55% or so of registered voters who did not bother to vote represent more than twice the margin between Daggett and Christie. If Daggett had been able to convince 1 out of 2 non-voters to vote for him, he would have won.

]]> By: Ross Levin http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/11/poli-tea-raises-the-important-question-of-low-voter-turnout-and-third-parties/comment-page-1/#comment-130663 Ross Levin Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:08:26 +0000 http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=10779#comment-130663 I thought the NOTA part of this blog post was less important than the idea of using voter registration and voter turnout to boost third party votes, especially in special elections and odd year elections. I thought the NOTA part of this blog post was less important than the idea of using voter registration and voter turnout to boost third party votes, especially in special elections and odd year elections.

]]> By: Susan Hogarth http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/11/poli-tea-raises-the-important-question-of-low-voter-turnout-and-third-parties/comment-page-1/#comment-130654 Susan Hogarth Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:32:18 +0000 http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=10779#comment-130654 Nate @14, if the voters choose "NOTA", why start looking for other candidates? Why not let the office go unfilled? Nate @14, if the voters choose “NOTA”, why start looking for other candidates? Why not let the office go unfilled?

]]> By: Solomon Drek http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/11/poli-tea-raises-the-important-question-of-low-voter-turnout-and-third-parties/comment-page-1/#comment-130644 Solomon Drek Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:01:54 +0000 http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=10779#comment-130644 I don't know if this "analysis" intentionally ignored Chris Daggett's nonimpact on the NJ governor's race or not. Daggett received public financing, appeared in debates with Christie and Corzine, received the endorsement of the largest newspaper in the state, and was polling as high as 20% two weeks before the election. Yet he received little more than 5% which less than Christie's margin of victory. BTW I was one of the few voters who said they would vote for Daggett and did. Evidently many more Daggett supporters got "wasted vote syndrome" and voted for Christie instead. Hence his rather substantial margin of victory. I also said I would write-in Bob Milnes for Governor and "Uncle Floyd" Vivino for Lieutenant-Governor but I changed my mind when it appeared Daggett might have a significant impact on the race. I think Daggett's real problem was money. With no ideological base of supporters he could not raise money from out-of-state and while voters might say they want alternatives they're obviously not willing to put any money where their sentiment is. Also when it appeared likely Daggett might swing the election to Corzine the Republican Governor's Association poured almost a million dollars into a negative ad campaign against Daggett only days before the election. Daggett had neither the time or the money to respond to those attacks and subsequently dropped in the polls. I don’t know if this “analysis” intentionally ignored Chris Daggett’s nonimpact on the NJ governor’s race or not. Daggett received public financing, appeared in debates with Christie and Corzine, received the endorsement of the largest newspaper in the state, and was polling as high as 20% two weeks before the election. Yet he received little more than 5% which less than Christie’s margin of victory.

BTW I was one of the few voters who said they would vote for Daggett and did. Evidently many more Daggett supporters got “wasted vote syndrome” and voted for Christie instead. Hence his rather substantial margin of victory.

I also said I would write-in Bob Milnes for Governor and “Uncle Floyd” Vivino for Lieutenant-Governor but I changed my mind when it appeared Daggett might have a significant impact on the race.

I think Daggett’s real problem was money. With no ideological base of supporters he could not raise money from out-of-state and while voters might say they want alternatives they’re obviously not willing to put any money where their sentiment is. Also when it appeared likely Daggett might swing the election to Corzine the Republican Governor’s Association poured almost a million dollars into a negative ad campaign against Daggett only days before the election. Daggett had neither the time or the money to respond to those attacks and subsequently dropped in the polls.

]]> By: Richard Winger http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/11/poli-tea-raises-the-important-question-of-low-voter-turnout-and-third-parties/comment-page-1/#comment-130613 Richard Winger Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:01:57 +0000 http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=10779#comment-130613 Political scientists, and the Census Bureau, have compiled voter turnout statistics all the way back to 1824. The highest voter turnout in U.S. history was in the 1870's and 1880's (of course, this takes into consideration which voters were permitted to vote). There were no ballot access laws back in the 1870's and 1880's. The real reason turnout was so high back then was that, in the aftermath of the Civil War, the sectional divisions in the nation were still intense. Presidential elections were excruciatingly close in the 1870's and 1880's, and everyone perceived that it made a huge difference which major party won. White southeners passionately wanted the Democratic Party to win, both for president, and for control of the U.S. House, which see-sawed back and forth almost every two years. Political scientists, and the Census Bureau, have compiled voter turnout statistics all the way back to 1824. The highest voter turnout in U.S. history was in the 1870′s and 1880′s (of course, this takes into consideration which voters were permitted to vote). There were no ballot access laws back in the 1870′s and 1880′s. The real reason turnout was so high back then was that, in the aftermath of the Civil War, the sectional divisions in the nation were still intense. Presidential elections were excruciatingly close in the 1870′s and 1880′s, and everyone perceived that it made a huge difference which major party won. White southeners passionately wanted the Democratic Party to win, both for president, and for control of the U.S. House, which see-sawed back and forth almost every two years.

]]> By: Melty http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/11/poli-tea-raises-the-important-question-of-low-voter-turnout-and-third-parties/comment-page-1/#comment-130582 Melty Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:34:09 +0000 http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=10779#comment-130582 I could see letting the fifty percentile line be of no more significance than any other percentile. How about if nota wins, just prop up a blank cardboard cutout in office behind the desk and leave it until the next election cycle? I could see letting the fifty percentile line be of no more significance than any other percentile.

How about if nota wins, just prop up a blank cardboard cutout in office behind the desk and leave it until the next election cycle?

]]> By: Aroundtheblockafewtimes http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/11/poli-tea-raises-the-important-question-of-low-voter-turnout-and-third-parties/comment-page-1/#comment-130557 Aroundtheblockafewtimes Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:14:27 +0000 http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=10779#comment-130557 Has anyone compiled a graph showing voter turnout over, say the last century? One theory is that voting used to be less anonymous - your union bosses knew if you voted, your employer knew, your trade association knew, your neighbors knew. As automobiles became popular, and television and other distractions that lessened "community involvement," it became far easier and more acceptable to be estranged from prying eyes who knew if one voted or not. Today, when you may not know the name of your neighbor three doors down and your party's committeeman (if you even belong to a party) never stops by with a turkey or other perk for supporting his party, it is very easy to escape any social shunning because you failed to vote. Has anyone compiled a graph showing voter turnout over, say the last century? One theory is that voting used to be less anonymous – your union bosses knew if you voted, your employer knew, your trade association knew, your neighbors knew. As automobiles became popular, and television and other distractions that lessened “community involvement,” it became far easier and more acceptable to be estranged from prying eyes who knew if one voted or not. Today, when you may not know the name of your neighbor three doors down and your party’s committeeman (if you even belong to a party) never stops by with a turkey or other perk for supporting his party, it is very easy to escape any social shunning because you failed to vote.

]]> By: Nate http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/11/poli-tea-raises-the-important-question-of-low-voter-turnout-and-third-parties/comment-page-1/#comment-130546 Nate Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:24:53 +0000 http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=10779#comment-130546 NOTA (or blank) should be handled thus: 1) 50% + 1 vote should be required to be elected on the first ballot. (NOTA counts as a vote and therefore reduces the chance of a candidate reaching the 50% mark, which is what you are trying to achieve when voting NOTA.) 2) If no candidate receives 50% + 1 vote (or NOTA does), a runoff election is held between the top two candidates. If NOTA is not one of those candidates, normal runoff rules apply. If NOTA is one of the top two, a new election is held without NOTA or any of the original candidates (except the other "top two" candidate), where any other person can run. No petitions are required and only a very minimal filing fee is charged. A short amount of time is given to file and campaign before the election (say 6 weeks). This allows NOTA to be replaced by none of the above, if someone can actually be found. That would be a decent use of NOTA. Example: A : 45% B : 10% C : 5% NOTA : 40% Runoff between A and "none of the above", so new election is called. A is automatically on the ballot. B and C cannot be put on the ballot. D, E, F and G can file to run, leading to: A : 51% D : 20% E : 19% F : 6% G : 4% And A is elected. Notice that NOTA cannot be chosen on the second ballot. (The only open question is what to do if in the new election noone gets 50% + 1 vote. You could have a top two runoff, but that means 3 elections total, which is a lot.) NOTA (or blank) should be handled thus:

1) 50% + 1 vote should be required to be elected on the first ballot. (NOTA counts as a vote and therefore reduces the chance of a candidate reaching the 50% mark, which is what you are trying to achieve when voting NOTA.)

2) If no candidate receives 50% + 1 vote (or NOTA does), a runoff election is held between the top two candidates. If NOTA is not one of those candidates, normal runoff rules apply. If NOTA is one of the top two, a new election is held without NOTA or any of the original candidates (except the other “top two” candidate), where any other person can run. No petitions are required and only a very minimal filing fee is charged. A short amount of time is given to file and campaign before the election (say 6 weeks). This allows NOTA to be replaced by none of the above, if someone can actually be found.

That would be a decent use of NOTA.

Example:
A : 45%
B : 10%
C : 5%
NOTA : 40%

Runoff between A and “none of the above”, so new election is called. A is automatically on the ballot. B and C cannot be put on the ballot. D, E, F and G can file to run, leading to:

A : 51%
D : 20%
E : 19%
F : 6%
G : 4%

And A is elected. Notice that NOTA cannot be chosen on the second ballot.

(The only open question is what to do if in the new election noone gets 50% + 1 vote. You could have a top two runoff, but that means 3 elections total, which is a lot.)

]]> By: d.eris http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/11/poli-tea-raises-the-important-question-of-low-voter-turnout-and-third-parties/comment-page-1/#comment-130543 d.eris Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:14:50 +0000 http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=10779#comment-130543 That is, according to the linked article above on the Virginia election. That is, according to the linked article above on the Virginia election.

]]> By: d.eris http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/11/poli-tea-raises-the-important-question-of-low-voter-turnout-and-third-parties/comment-page-1/#comment-130542 d.eris Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:12:52 +0000 http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=10779#comment-130542 Robert C, same with NJ's off year gov elections, right? In mid-term elections, <a href="http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781453.html" rel="nofollow">voter turnout</a> seems to have hovered in the 30% range for the last 30 years. For an off year election, 39% and 45% might be a relatively high rate of participation then. But, this year in VA, voter turnout was at a 40 year low! At least according to the linked article. Robert C, same with NJ’s off year gov elections, right? In mid-term elections, voter turnout seems to have hovered in the 30% range for the last 30 years. For an off year election, 39% and 45% might be a relatively high rate of participation then. But, this year in VA, voter turnout was at a 40 year low! At least according to the linked article.

]]> By: Melty http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/11/poli-tea-raises-the-important-question-of-low-voter-turnout-and-third-parties/comment-page-1/#comment-130540 Melty Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:04:01 +0000 http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=10779#comment-130540 blank rox! blank rox!

]]> By: Robert Capozzi http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/11/poli-tea-raises-the-important-question-of-low-voter-turnout-and-third-parties/comment-page-1/#comment-130539 Robert Capozzi Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:02:36 +0000 http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=10779#comment-130539 d.e, VA's is always off year. We could check, but I believe the trend in VA at least is voter turnout is always way down even in the off years that the guv's office is open. d.e, VA’s is always off year. We could check, but I believe the trend in VA at least is voter turnout is always way down even in the off years that the guv’s office is open.

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