Tom Knapp is a declared candidate for the 2012 Libertarian Party presidential nomination. On IPR’s email discussion group he offers this post from his blog, Kn@ppster, as a counterpoint to the commentary from fellow 2012 Libertarian Party presidential nomination candidate Wayne Root, which I published here. For additional background, see Delaware Libertarian here and here and Progressive Historians here.
The post at Knappster follows; see the original post there for comments.
-Paulie
It’s not about race.
At least not per se. What it’s about is the increasingly bad attitude of “law enforcement,” an attitude not just tolerated but generally backed up by everyone from President Obama to Joe Sixpack.
Attitude like this:
“We’re not going to take abuse,” [a 13-year veteran of the Denver police force] said. “We have to remain in control. We’re running the show.”
Well, no, you’re not. In theory, at least, you work for us, remember?
“We pay these officers to risk their lives every day,” says another interviewee in the story. True enough … but so what? It does not follow from the fact that being a cop may entail some level of risk that we, their putative employers, are in any way obligated to bow, scrape and genuflect every time a badge is flashed.
Like the man said, we pay them. They’re not conscripted. They choose the job — a job which, by the way, is not only not the most dangerous job out there, but doesn’t even make the top ten list. And if a cop finds the level of risk in the job unacceptable, well, maybe Nerf® is hiring.
I do not know exactly what transpired at the Cambridge, Massachusetts home of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates, Jr. Neither do most of the people running their yaps about the incident on either side. What I do know is that the professor’s account is facially more believable than the police officer’s account — not because of the racial characteristics of the individuals involved, but because of the institutional arrogance of “law enforcement,” an arrogance put front and center by the “law enforcement” establishment in the fallout from this incident and visibly manifested every day on America’s streets.
davidson needs his ass whooped , period.
i dont care how this violates the non aggression principle , or how it sounds .
if anyone ever deserved a ass-whooping , it is him.
Exactly how small does Jim thing the freedom movement should be?
We’ve now established that anyone who has ever been a rights-violating criminal should not be in the movement, per Jim, as well as anyone who works (or, I suppose, ever worked) in the government or at a government-supported institution such as a state college. Who else?
In the original reply on yahoo groups, I neglected to address Jim’s final bit of brilliance:
“Your mother took it up the ass, which is why you became such a shit.”
If she did, I hope she enjoyed it. Now that we have established why I’m such a shit, Jim, what’s your excuse for being the shit that you are?
Following Jim’s pretzel logic further, since the people I hurt were also people who had hurt other people, was my violence against them:
A) Retaliatory
B) Not retaliatory, thus making his threatened violence against me not retaliatory either, for the same reasons
C) Not retaliatory, but his is retaliatory because he has a special exemption from the laws of nature?
Further exchange with Davidson on lpanarchists:
Re: Logic and Davidson – contradiction in terms?
— In [email protected], “Jim” wrote:
J> You are a thug, a violent criminal, and a convicted felon. These things speak to your character. Even Diogenes looked for an honest man.
>
> Because Americans rely on thugs, liars, and thieves, in place of decent men and women, in politics, they fail to find freedom there. You might want to ask yourself what business you have being involved in the freedom movement, given your past indelicacies.
p] Actually, it’s the best reason I know of to be involved in the freedom movement. I can’t change the past, but I can try to change the future.
P > > my long ago involvement in criminal violence
>
> > I acknowledge it
>
> > I deeply regret many of my actions.
J > But have you made any meaningful act of contrition?
p] Absolutely. In fact, that is what my political involvement is all about.
p > > Anyway, what is your obsession with the LP and what is your
> > new obsession with me?
J > Obsession? I get invited to LP discussions all the time. Every once in a while, I respond by posting my ideas. This sort of thing isn’t an obsession. It is a courtesy.
p] There is nothing courteous about it, and you getting involved in LP
discussions all the time is indeed an obsession, given that you have stated that there is no future in electoral politics for freedom.
p> > A few weeks ago you start attacking me out of the blue
> > for no apparent reason.
J > You have but to look at your character and at your actions to find the many reasons.
p] There have been no such reasons. My distant past is not exactly news. You have known about it for a long time. Nevertheless, you treated me as a friend and ally, as I did you. Then, suddenly, for no reason that I can see, you started attacking me out of the blue and escalating your aggressive rhetoric to the point that you are now making threats.
Nothing I have done in the interim has caused any of these actions on your part; if there is, what was it?
J > > “Paulie. You are an evil malicious wart on the liberty
> > movement’s nose. You are a thug. Fuck yourself. If I see
> > you, I’ll hurt you, any way I please.”
J2 > Evidently, I felt hurt by your words. Perhaps I’ll hurt you with words. Or actions.
p] Many people feel hurt by your words. Are you sure that is the standard you want to set to excuse physical violence (“actions”)?
J > You are outside the protection of the zero aggression principle because of your past violent actions.
p] Ah, I see.
I used to do bad things and so that means I should never try to do good things in the present or future. Gotcha.
J > I can retaliate against you at any time for any of those past violent actions.
p] How do you know there were any victims? Maybe the force was retaliatory? Maybe I was acting under duress? Maybe I made it up?
You seem to think you know a lot when it is obvious that you know nothing whatsoever.
P > > Keep in mind that you initiated verbal aggression,
J > There is no such thing.
p] Of course there is.
P > > have escalated it, and now are apparently threatening to
> > initiate physical violence.
J > Apparent to whom? I don’t find it at all apparent. I’m certainly
> capable of using defensive and retaliatory force.
P] Apparent to anyone who can read. You are clearly and repeatedly threatening violence against me.
P > > I’m the thug yet you are the one threatening me for…what?
J > Indeed you are, good that you know yourself.
p] No, I’m far from being a thug. If I was the thug you want people to think I am, I would have already had you killed just for your threats alone. Instead, I am much more likely to become your victim, and probably won’t even defend myself. I’m a lot different now than I was then.
J > Threatening you?
p] Yes, you are.
J> I’m stating my opinions.
p] The “opinion” that you will hurt me with your actions, yes.
J> I’m expressing my desires.
p] The desire to inflict violence against me. Yes.
J] If you feel threatened, defend yourself.
p] Maybe I will, but probably not.
J] How many of those people you beat up and put into hospitals with your violence felt threatened by you? Did you send flowers?
p] Dunno. I don’t remember that time of my life very well. I was using a lot of drugs all the time. I may have false memories. What does that have to do with anything in the present?
P > > Maybe I struck a nerve with the agent provocateur guess?
J > No, you are evidently an agent provocateur who cannot stand to have anyone beat you to the punch. You want to be the first to mention the idea that violence has worked in the past in political action. Maybe your masters told you that the recipe I posted for Molotov cocktails was too effective.
p] I have no masters, and I’m not the one exhorting other people to commit violence — the job of the archetypal agent provocateur. I see Davidson exhorting people to commit violence against police, politicians, etc. Is he doing so himself?
P> > Finally, Jim: what is it you want?
J> I want you to fuck off and die. I’d like to be left alone.
p] I’d be happy to leave you alone, preferably in solitary confinement in a secure mental health facility for the criminally insane, or somewhere else where you can’t hurt peaceful people like me. And yes, I am now a peaceful person.
Please do fuck off, since you have no interest in making the Libertarian Party work and do not believe it can be a force for good, and thus are in the wrong place here. In fact, you are only here to be disruptive, and I believe that is intentionally.
As for death, we’ll all die eventually, although it seems you are planning to take action to hasten my death, at least if your words are to be believed.
P > > Which aspects of my free expression do I have to curtail for
> > you to withdraw your threat of initiating violence against me?
J > You have to make a meaningful act of contrition to every single individual you have ever beaten physically. I suggest you crawl over broken glass on your knees to each of their homes to beg forgiveness.
p] How do you know any such individuals exist? If they do exist, how do you know that they were innocent? Maybe I was acting in self defense? Maybe I was acting under duress and threat of my own life?
Meanwhile, you are threatening to beat me up or perhaps kill me. If you refrain from doing so, you won’t have to feel morally compelled to not be a hypocrite, as following your own advice will then mean you will have to crawl on your knees over broken glass to beg my forgiveness.
J > I have made not threat to initiate violence. I have said that I’ll hurt you any way I please. That might include physical hurt, or emotional hurt, or humiliation. Maybe I’ll make you look stupid by throwing a drink in your face. You never know. Hurt is a broad category.
p] Any of those are a form of violence, specifically assault. You have
threatened it repeatedly, publicly and specifically, and have done so again just now.
Fuck yourselves, individually, collectively, and severally.
Lead the way.
anyone may retaliate against him for his initiatory force on behalf of any of his victims, ever.
Identify some victims first, pig.
I found his words hurtful. Perhaps it will please me to hurt him with words. Perhaps with actions.
Many people find your words hurtful. Are you sure that is the standard you wish to establish?
on behalf of any of his victims, ever.
How do you know there were any victims? Maybe the force was retaliatory? Maybe I was acting under duress? Maybe I made it up?
You seem to think you know a lot when it is obvious that you know nothing whatsoever.
since anyone may retaliate against him for his initiatory force on behalf of any of his victims, ever.
Ah, I see.
I used to do bad things and so that means I should never try to do good things in the present or future. Gotcha.
Paulie admits that he used to beat people up for money. This makes him outside the protection of the zero aggression principle, since anyone may retaliate against him for his initiatory force on behalf of any of his victims, ever.
I found his words hurtful. Perhaps it will please me to hurt him with words. Perhaps with actions.
What are any of you going to do about it? Nothing.
Michael Seebeck is a vicious pig lover who enjoys the fact that pigs smash the faces of people they encounter and arrest.
Susan Hogarth is a nasty harridan.
Fuck yourselves, individually, collectively, and severally.
Michael, I wouldn’t characterize Susan that way. Jim, yes.
As amusing as it may be to needle Jim, it’s really probably counterproductive. It might be more useful simply to ignore him.
Yes, you are correct.
@83:
I’m the thug, yet you are the one threatening me for…what? Posting videos on IPR? ….
Add psychological projection to Jim’s laundry list of issues.
Maybe I struck a nerve with the agent provocateur guess?
Yes, Susan, you prove that daily.
MS,
Being a boor (and a bore) is not a medical disorder.
Jim must be off his bipolar meds again.
Hey Jim, how’s that Facebook promise you made to me doing, anyway?
LG and Paul,
As amusing as it may be to needle Jim, it’s really probably counterproductive. It might be more useful simply to ignore him.
Jim , your a thug , your always making threats of violence , and I bet your all talk .
I sincerely hope karma, in the form of a real man ,kicks your sorry ass.
Then let me be more direct, Paulie. You are an evil malicious wart on the liberty movement’s nose. You are a thug. Fuck yourself. If I see you, I’ll hurt you, any way I please.
I did. Mission accomplished.
No, but thanks for playing.
Absolutely. Here’s one for you. The song selection is not a personal message, I’m just listening to it in the other tab.
Yes Jim, it’s all about you. Delusions of grandeur and persecution much?
BTW I am running three different browsers right now, and it’s not breaking any of them, and I also use a lot of different computers and have not had that problem with any of them.
I don’t think you are all that radical.
The rest of your presumptuous, masturbatory bloviating is too boring and predictable to waste time on.
Here is a link from another messenger who has called the current monarchy in his country “the Hanoverian usurpation” if I have my Christophers straight.
http://www.slate.com/id/2223673/
“More recently, I was walking at night in the wooded California suburb where I spend the summer, trying to think about an essay I was writing. Suddenly, a police cruiser was growling quietly next to me and shining a light. “What are you doing?” I don’t know quite what it was—I’d been bored and delayed that week at airport security—but I abruptly decided that I was in no mood, so I responded, “Who wants to know?” and continued walking. “Where do you live?” said the voice. “None of your business,” said I. “What’s under your jacket?” “What’s your probable cause for asking?” I was now almost intoxicated by my mere possession of constitutional rights. There was a pause, and then the cop asked almost pleadingly how he was to know if I was an intruder or burglar, or not. “You can’t know that,” I said. “It’s for me to know and for you to find out. I hope you can come up with probable cause.” The car gurgled alongside me for a bit and then pulled away. No doubt the driver then ran some sort of check, but he didn’t come back.
“In the first instance, I found again what everyone knows, which is that there are a lot of warped misfits and inadequates who are somehow allowed to join the police force. In the second instance, I found that a good cop even at dead of night can and will use his judgment, even if the “suspect” is being a slight pain in the ass. But seriously, do you think I could have pulled the second act, or would even have tried it, or been given the chance to try it, if I had been black?”
Oh, good. I thought you might have been trying to make a valid point. I see now that you were just grasping for straws and posting random links.
Could you post more videos? These always seem to break my browser, which discourages me from coming here to say anything – which seems to be your objective.
The basic truth is that really radical libertarians have always said things that made milquetoasts uncomfortable. If you think I’m really radical, you should check out Sam Adams on the “mangled bodies” of countrymen, or Patrick Henry on “what means this martial array” or some of that stuff Tom Paine wrote.
You might not like the fact that burning the ROTC barracks on campuses all over this country ended military recruiting and CIA recruiting on campus for over a generation, but it did. The violent riots and demonstrations against the Vietnam war ended that war. I have not seen any evidence that your rotten tactics and stupid obeisance to the government has ended either the war in Afghanistan or the one in Iraq.
The violent riots and protests and attacks on the military in the 1960s and especially in the early 1970s also ended the military draft. You should go to one of the campus memorials to those who gave their lives in violent protests (if you live near a campus that hasn’t had its memorials torn down) and say a prayer of thanks to those who made it possible for you to grow up in a country that didn’t have a draft. But you are the sort of self centered scum who probably won’t do anything of that nature.
The simple fact is that Americans are rowdy and violent. We don’t have to take a lot of guff from the people with fancy hats and pretty shiny badges. Nobody dares to invade us because, as Yamamoto noted, “there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.” I’ve got mine, and ammo. Got yours? Got ammo? Got any skill?
Sending ammo down range is the only way to turn money into skill at arms. Or so sez Ken Royce, who would know.
You don’t like people to say that the pigs are fuckers. Well, too bad. The pigs are fuckers, and many of them deserve to burn.
It isn’t too late for them to quit their jobs and work at something productive rather than parasitical. And it is not too late for them to be pleasant and decent, forebearing and forgiving, patient and deferent. Because they work for people who are independent, sovereign, and free, and those people can be, and should be, violent, arrogant, and rude to people who treat them violently, arrogantly, and rudely.
So, since you have so many pig friends, and pig lover friends, tell them about the deal. The deal with Americans has always been that we kicked the king out, and we well remember how to send Barkers to kill a king. We helped the French put a guillotine blade over their king. And we can do it again.
Nobody requires a pig to be a pig. Quit.
But Americans do require pigs to be polite. Otherwise, there will be barbecue.
Attacking me for carrying the message isn’t very interesting. Look at the message. It is so much more significant than the messenger.
TOLD YA SO………..
BOSTON (AFP) – Boston police said they had suspended an officer for a racist email likely to renew tensions over the recent arrest of black Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates.
“Boston Police Commissioner Ed Davis placed Officer Justin Barrett, 36, on administrative leave pending the outcome of a termination hearing,” a spokesman for the force told AFP in a statement.
“Commissioner Davis was made aware of a correspondence with racist remarks and yesterday removed the officer of his gun and badge.”
The email describes Gates, who was arrested and briefly detained earlier this month at Harvard, near Boston, as a “banana-eating jungle monkey,” according to a copy published by news site MyFoxBoston.com.
The city’s mayor, Tom Menino, was quoted referring to Barrett as a “cancer in the department” and calling on him to be fired.
Gates became the center of a national debate on racism when he was charged with disorderly conduct after arguing with police sent to investigate a suspected burglary at his home near Harvard University.
President Barack Obama became embroiled in the uproar when he said police acted “stupidly.” On Thursday, Obama is due to host both Gates and the arresting officer at the White House for what officials say will be a friendly beer.
But the email has reignited the controversy and dealt Boston’s police a severe image blow just when they and the White House were hoping to calm tensions.
The email allegedly written by Barrett lambasts Gates for getting into an altercation with police.
“I am not a racist, but I am prejudice towards people who are stupid,” reads the alleged diatribe — containing frequent grammatical and spelling errors — against Gates and local newspaper the Boston Globe.
“He has indeed transcended back to a bumbling jungle monkey.”
I’m not accusing anyone, but your increasingly violent rhetoric recently is reminiscent of a classic agent provocateur. Whether you are or are not is a different question. I have no direct evidence to accuse you or anyone else. I’m reasonably sure there are some, but it remains to be seen who.
Paulie, are you accusing Steven, Thomas, or me? lol
Steven, lots of things are bottled. Go by a bar some time. In particular, go by a bar that serves bottled refreshments, but about noon on a Saturday or Sunday. You should find barrels of bottles out in the back ready for recycling. Some break more readily than others.
The term agent provocateur springs to mind
http://www.infowars.com/hal-turner-admits-he-worked-for-the-fbi/
Molotov cocktails are cheap and easy…
Not many things are “bottled” anymore. Seems most comes in plastic nowadays. AND you have to remember to wipe off fingerprints (hard to do when you are caught up in the moment).
OTOH, IED’s seem to be getting popular. And cheaper and easier to build.
Not making any suggestions…just musing.
😉
PEACE
Free speech should be respected. Gates was in his home, or on his porch or lawn, when he told the pig off. Bullies should go to hell.
I think it is very simple. The police demand respect and courtesy which they have not earned and do not reciprocate.
Therefore, the people are justified in having war in the streets. Let the pigs understand that they cannot get unearned respect and they cannot get courtesy without reciprocating, but they can get unearned death, and they can get one-sided attacks. Let us see exactly who is outnumbered, who benefits from the expectation of restraint.
There is no reason for anyone to expect restraint from any pig today. Pigs will taser you without warning. They will arrest you for trumped up nonsense. Comply with their requests and they’ll kill you or break your bones anyway, because that’s what they like to do.
So, the other choice. The other choice is war in the streets. See a pig go on a rampage. See a pig car, burn it up.
Molotov cocktails are cheap and easy – a glass bottle, preferably thin and cheap, gasoline, motor oil, and brake fluid to fill, a tampon to cork, a length of clothes line to fuse. If your test articles don’t break on impact, you want to get a tile cutter and score the bottle a bit. (You can test types of bottles with any fluid, such as water.)
Good quality phosphorus can be painted on wet and will burst into flames when dry. See how that works on a car’s gas tank. Try the old “American Graffiti” trick of hooking a pig car’s axle to a telephone pole. Or use the classic three dimensional caltrop.
Are they your neighbors? Are their houses made of wood?
The police have already been federalised. They have already been militarised. And now they have the same contemptible attitude of federal law enforcement and “transportation safety administration” bureau-rat scum.
In Nazi occupied Europe, the resistance would make road blocks interesting for the Nazis by coming up with automatic weapons and wiping out those checking papers. Not every time, and clearly not often enough.
Don’t like these ideas? Then encourage your pig friends to be pleasant, courteous to a fault, and very patient. Because if they want to act like bullies, they’ll get exactly what they deserve. Or more.
From Loretta Nall:
I just took action on this and hope you will, too! It only takes about one minute.
Last week, President Obama’s new drug czar claimed, “Marijuana is dangerous and has no medicinal benefit.” Meanwhile, the President was at the White House trying to defuse the situation surrounding the controversial and highly publicized arrest of his friend, Harvard Professor Henry Lewis Gates, by inviting him and the arresting officer to the White House… for a beer!
Yes, that’s right. Just after President Obama’s top drug policy official declared marijuana “dangerous,” the President himself was touting the calming and beneficial effect of consuming alcohol, a far more dangerous substance that — unlike marijuana — actually contributes to violent and aggressive behavior.
If you agree this is ridiculous, please visit http://salsa.wiredforchange.com/o/5559/t/4030/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=2888 and use the form to send a quick message to President Obama, letting him know you are appalled by the anti-marijuana, pro-alcohol message his administration is sending, and urging him to stop driving Americans — and his White House guests — to drink.
Then forward word of this opportunity to take action to anyone you know who might be interested!
Thank you!
You are a self described ‘conservative Republican’ constantly posting on a non GOP [indeed, anti GOP] site! What is your agenda? Why do you not seek out GOP sites? What’s up homie?
When you say “self described” you imply I’ve described myself using those words. I’ve never once described myself as a conservative Republican. So not only are you obsessed with me, but now you have taken as far as randomly making things up and hoping it sticks.
By RUSSELL CONTRERAS, Associated Press Writer Russell Contreras, Associated Press Writer – 1 min ago
CAMBRIDGE, Mass. – A Cambridge police sergeant who responded to a 911 call about a possible break-in at the home of black Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. told dispatchers that Gates was being uncooperative and to “keep the cars coming.”
Another voice can be heard in the background of the transmission, but it is unintelligible and unclear if it is Gates.
Cambridge police released recordings of police radio transmissions and of the 911 call Monday following more than a week of controversy over Gates’ July 16 arrest on a disorderly conduct charge. The charge was dropped, but the encounter sparked a national debate about racial profiling.
Gates’ supporters called his arrest by Sgt. James Crowley an outrageous act of racial profiling. Crowley’s supporters say Gates was arrested because he was belligerent and that race was not a factor.
Interest in the case intensified when President Barack Obama said at a White House news conference last week that Cambridge police “acted stupidly” in arresting Gates. He later tried to quell the uproar about his comments and invited both Gates and Crowley to the White House for a beer, a meeting that could happen this week, according to the White House.
In the 911 recording released Monday, caller Lucia Whalen tells police she saw two men pressing on the door of a home, but says she is unsure whether the men live there or if they were trying to break in. She said she saw two suitcases on the porch.
“I don’t know if they live there and they just had a hard time with their key. But I did notice they used their shoulder to try to barge in and they got in. I don’t know if they had a key or not cause I couldn’t see from my angle,” Whalen said.
Whalen does not mention the race of the men she saw until pressed by a dispatcher to describe them. At that point, she said one of the men may have been Hispanic.
In Crowley’s report, he said he spoke to Whalen at the scene and she reported seeing two black men on the porch.
Whalen’s attorney, Wendy Murphy, said her client did not mention the men’s race to Crowley and is upset by news reports she believes have unfairly depicted her as a racist.
“She doesn’t live in the area. She is by no means the entitled white neighbor. … That has been the theme in the blogs and the implication in some of the mainstream news media,” Murphy said in a phone interview Monday.
In the radio transmissions, Crowley tells a dispatcher he is at the home where the possible break-in was reported.
“I’m up with a gentleman, says he resides here, but was uncooperative, but keep the cars coming,” Crowley said.
In his written police report, Crowley said Gates became angry when he told him he was investigating a report of a break-in, then yelled at him and called him a racist.
tab // Jul 25, 2009 at 10:52 pm
Thomas [ Knapp]
“I have no “irrational hatred for police.” I’ve seen good cops and bad cops, and have had positive and negative interactions with both types.
Fair enough. I should not have insinuated you had the hatred in my original post. That is my fault and I apologize………. ”
tab: You are a self described ‘conservative Republican’ constantly posting on a non GOP [indeed, anti GOP] site! What is your agenda? Why do you not seek out GOP sites? What’s up homie?
All law enforcement officers are not off springs of Hitler and Stalin. But lot’s of the ‘good ones’ get real quiet when the spot light falls on the bad ones! [It is called ‘sins of omission’!]
“…I sincerely doubt it had ANYTHING to do with”, rather. *UGH*
@62 Kimberly, I sincerely doubt it had NOTHING to do with race any *everything* to do with being able to wield power over another person. That’s what cops do.
Well said, Paul.
All citizens are equally suspect in the eyes of cops, but some are more equal than others.
Kimberly,
Cops treat white people in their homes the same way quite often.
Kimberly ,its been my experience that cops are equal opportunity assholes.
The Henry Louis Gates thing was clearly about race!
Eeek!
I don’t have the patience to respond to this enough.
But….bull…bull….bull….yuck….yuck….yuck….
Our country is frightened of admitting subtle racism, unaware racism, institutional racism, and the stereotypes that most of us have in our head from childhood.
The policeman was foolish to arrest someone after the person was in their house, with an id. Fine for some flack and demanding the id after a report of a break in. But, when the situation was uncovered, apologies from the police to a law-abiding citizen should have ensued.
It is b.s to say that racism was not involved. And, since it is Obama’s b.s . line, I would hope third parties would spend so much effort supporting it.
Our police officers need REAL TRAINING in race relations, and dismantling racism.
I am amused by all the stereotypes being thrown around in this thread.
Michigan-Matt:
I am one of these libertarians that you seem to hold a grudge against, and yet I’ve never done an ‘illegal’ drug (I barely use the legal ones, save for caffeine). I don’t hold some teenage grudge against “the man,” and don’t possess a seething hatred of cops – my interactions with police have left me with few complaints. That being said, I don’t see how this policeman (or any policeman) can justify the deprivation of liberty and freedom of a civilian they have sworn to protect. Who was the policeman protecting in this instance? His ego? Yes, Mr. Gates acted foolishly and has since continued to do so, but at no point in time have his remarks justified detainment. Also, your use of the phrase “his “black man in da hood” dance” certainly makes me question your own racial bias.
Steven R Linnabury:
You’re usually rather spot-on with your observational comments, but linking cop behavior with a rant against high school football players doesn’t aid your cause. There are many former high school football players (myself included) who share your views aside from that detail.
@58 But the point is still, I think, that the manner in which Gates ordered Crowley off his property should be irrelevant: no more how rude his behavior, Crowley’s confinement of Gates was not a matter of defending himself or someone else; it was therefore an act of agression, and therefore not OK. Gates’s conduct would be relevant if he’d pulled a gun–or looked capable of launching his cane successfully at Crowley. Otherwise, it doesn’t matter what he said: Crowley could and should just have walked away.
@57
I believe that the policeman’s actions (save the arrest) were just and lawful. If the police report is to be believed the policeman responded to a report of a burglary, met the person who made the report at the location, entered the property with the belief that a crime against property was occurring and then Mr. Gates was arrested some time later.
However after all is said and done none of the actors were federal employees and so I think that Mr. Root and Mr. Knapp will have more relevant comments relative to the position they are applying for when the next federal police officer (FBI/DEA/IRS) harasses a citizen (perhaps rightfully and lawfully, perhaps not).
I’ll just add that as skeptical as I am about any police arrest (as Americans should be) I still wish that Mr. Gates had comported himself so as to not give the policeman reason to arrest him. I could easily imagine that once Mr. Gates had the policeman’s information (or even absent having obtained that information) he could have forcefully ordered the policeman off the property and never have been arrested if he had done so in a manner that I believe either Mr. Knapp or Mr. Root would have.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html
And while it is not incumbent upon Mr. Gates to do so I certainly note that he hasn’t produced any written account of the events of that day that anybody not present could use to determine how legitimate or illegitimate the policeman’s actions were.
OK, I stand corrected…that Gates did use the “race card”.
The cop STILL didn’t have the right to enter the home without a warrant. I would have been upset in a similar situation.
So it isn’t about race, but rather about cops abusing their illegitimate authority.
PEACE
Steven,
This is from Gates…
“I believe the police officer should apologize to me for what he knows he did that was wrong,” Gates said in a phone interview from his other home in Martha’s Vineyard. “If he apologizes sincerely, I am willing to forgive him. And if he admits his error, I am willing to educate him about the history of racism in America and the issue of racial profiling … That’s what I do for a living.”
If someone is actually discriminated against due to race then I have no problems with it. I have problems with people throwing out the race card where race clearly wasn’t involved.
…because he knows he was race-baiting and played the card…
I haven’t heard him OR Obama say this was about race. Plenty of commentators have, but not Gates.
If somebody is black they cannot complain of abuse of (illegitimate) authority? Isn’t it racist to make assumptions based on race?
PEACE
oh come on, they ALL bleed law enforcement blue!
Sorry, I don’t think all cops are out to get me. The vast majority of cops are good people who do their jobs well on a daily basis.
If he had his rights violated, I’d love for him to sue. However, I don’t think he will because he knows he was race-baiting and played the card without any real evidence behind it.
Michigan Matt needs to get up off his knees and wipe the jizm off his face. Let’s stick to the facts, OK?
As Tom has pointed out in the original piece, “It’s not about race. It NEVER was about race. It’s about inappropriate police behavior.
Like having contempt for the US Constitution.
Cop groupies always disregard this. Psychologists say it probably goes back to high school and before when they were taught that football players (the uniform thing) could do no wrong.
If Matt wants to go down on anything in a uniform, that’s his business. But to brag on this forum is repulsive and inappropriate.
PEACE
sorry Susan Im sure your response would have been more mature and measured
Michigan Matt , Fuck the Police, go put someone in a cage fascist.
Matt @49:
Forget race. Take race off the table. Even if someone else talks about race in this context, forget it. I’m not talking about race. Maybe someone else is. I don’t care right now: I’m not.
I’m talking about simple non-aggression.
There’s nothing in the record to suggest that Crowley believed Gates posed a threat to his safety or anyone else’s. Do we agree on that point?
If we do, then where’s the issue? Crowley used force against Gates. He didn’t do so to protect himself or anyone else. So he engaged in an aggressive action that has to be understood as punitive or retaliatory.
Doing that wouldn’t be OK for me. It wouldn’t be OK for you. So what makes it OK for Crowley?
What am I missing about this story, from your perspective?
Susan, nice try at intimidation there, sweetie, but it doesn’t work on me if “da man” can’t convince you your teenage era arrest for dope possession was legit. Talk about carrying around alot of baggage.
You wrote: “It’s not (much) about race. It’s mostly about the cops thinking that someone abusing them is arrest-worthy.”
You’re still wrong. It was decidedly about race when Obama’s loud-mouthed peer started his “black man in da hood” dance on the police and the Great O jumped in labeling the police action “stupid”.
It isn’t about improper police actions or racial profiling. “Arrest-worthy” is such an openly contemptible phrase I hope someone is there to remind you of it the next time you get busted at the Dopeheads4Paul rally.
But your antagonism toward police, deep seated and deep rooted as it appears here, is part of what allows you to think you can get away with your ludicrous comments sans objective, intelligent criticism.
Maybe the better choice for you and your anti-police liberaltarian friends is to spend some time converting the illicit stashes of dope into medical marijuana… which will help you adjust into the new, if slightly hazey, reality you’ve embraced?
And kindly refrain in the future from your unwarranted beating up on cops to assuage your teenage outrage, sweetie. It isn’t the 70s anymore and HashBashes have come and gone as badges of protest against the authorities.
Gheesh.
The police are here to protect and serve, that is their job. Had they not responded to the 911 call reporting a burglary, Prof. Gates would probably have made that an issue to. He, along with Barack Obama both played the race card, not sargeant Crowley. Both Obama and Gates owe an apology not only to sargeant Crowley, but to police officers in general. Obama can apologize to the world for America, but he is to arrogant to apologize for his own misgivings.
I would think the decision to drop the charge was a prosecution decision, not a police or judicial decision.
Once Gort is in your house you better be careful! Once Gort pulls you over, better be careful! Rob a bank & take a hostage? Gort is coming. Beat up your significant other? Pretty good chance that person will stand between you & Gort when it arrives.
My point was how important an anymous call to police is. e.g. I am convinced an anymous call from covert agents directed a call to Dallas police that resulted in confrontation of Officer Tippet & Lee Harvey Oswald.
Oops! Me again. Can’t delete the R.
I believe that within the last few years the Supreme Court has ruled that police may demand ID. That authorizes certain consequences like detainment pending verification of ID & W/W etc. Meanwhile if they are in the house they have “in sight” etc. probable cause like smelling MJ or seeing paraphernalia etc. This is a lot of power & consequences. & yes, I must agree in the principle of verbal abuse/assault.
Tab @38–I think you’re doubtless right that in the situation you describe, it would be reasonable to provide the police officer with identification, just as it is reasonable to avoid falling boulders or flirting with the date of a drunk pro wrestler. Pragmatically speaking, there are things Gates might have done to change the dynamic. My point is just that also would have been reasonable for the officer to walk away from the situation rather than using force against Gates: nothing about the situation justified depriving Gates of his liberty, even if, arguendo, Gates was acting unreasonably in the manner that’s so far been described.
http://aaeblog.com/2009/07/25/best-defense/
The single most important thing to remember here is that the police droppped the charges. By doing that, they are admitting that they were completely in the wrong, period.
tab: oh come on, they ALL bleed law enforcement blue! Anti Homo Sexual J. Edgar Hoover had a live in male lover [number three in the agency] and wore a sun dress to Del Mar Track! You talk like a conservative Republican, and you know how well those kreeps are doing ……..
Thomas
I have no “irrational hatred for police.” I’ve seen good cops and bad cops, and have had positive and negative interactions with both types.
Fair enough. I should not have insinuated you had the hatred in my original post. That is my fault and I apologize.
What I have an entirely rational problem with is the prevailing (both inside and outside law enforcement) attitude that cops are somehow automatically entitled to be “in charge” in every situation and that it is the duty of all citizens to defer to them in every instance. They aren’t and it isn’t.
I completely agree with that paragraph. Cops are not automatically in charge of every situation. However, if a cop asks me for my ID, I think it is entirely reasonable to simply provide him with identification.
Unless new evidence has emerged in the past few hours, you have no idea whether or not Gates provided identification, and neither do I. The difference between us is that you’re making an unsupported factual claim while I’m making a well-supported observation.
Good point. We shall see when all the facts of the case come out. If it matters, a black cop has endorsed the original cops version of events.
I am basing my claims on the Gates character overall.
Eric,
You write: “The charity group expended only 27% of its funds on real charity, the rest of went to Gates and his friends at Harvard.”
That’s incorrect. The charity has expended only 27% of its funds, period. Of that 27%, most seems to have gone to associates of Gates as “research grants” (apparently one of the purposes of the foundation). The rest, so far as anyone knows, is in the bank.
The total amount raised is in the neighborhood of $200k. So basically what we’re talking about is a foundation that is carefully stewarding what amounts to a $200k endowment, disbursing about what it makes in interest — neither an unusual nor an imprudent practice.
The “scandal” is that the charity apparently failed to file some reports in a timely manner.
What you might think this has to do with the incident in question is beyond me.
I, after two years of numerous surgeries and with a distinct hobble, had just come from the [so called] Patient Advocate to voice a complaint of gross misscheduling. A federal officer ordered me, in a loud and annoyed voice, to “come here!” I looked around for my sweet heart or other witnesses. I found none. [This was the day after Thanksgiving (hence the scheduling mishap) and the VA Hospital was open but empty!]
I announced [again, twice the prick’s age and unable to amble beyond a walk] that I needed a witness and was headed back to the Patient Advocate’s Office.
The USDVA gestapo caught up with me [Public Enemy Number One ????] in the complaints office. The two employees offered to walk me to the KGB headquarters, but the SS Officers, three of them, ‘hooked me up’ and [with me screaming at the top of my lungs] dragged me down the hall.
This got my plight noticed by my sweet heart and her horrified look got them to at least drop me to the floor instead of carrying me by the hand cuffs. I was [crying and whimpering] charged with disorderly conduct and could have ended up paying a $285 fine.
I ended up going to Anger Management classes for week after week, basically to protect the thugs from embarrassing revelations.
I am free white short haired with out tatooes male in ill health. If it could happen to me, it could happen to any one. And if my sweet heart had not been there as a witness ……..
After being released I WAS NOT ALLOWED to return to the [so called] Patient Advocate. I was physically barred from that path, inspite of California state law.
The red wrist welts lasted for hours and aspirin and ice packs helped little. [I guess the extreme fit and fully employed federalies SHOWED ME!]
Don’t get abused in San Diego County, the daily establishment house organ [the hated and just sold Union Tribune] and the present District Attorney, a nice enough GOP Lesbian, never met a badge they did not fall in love with.
Review boards are just rubber stamps!
It happens because they can get away with abuse, time after time. Again, if it could happen to me ……….
@32 But the real question here is what renders the relevant orders “proper”? I think you’re begging the question here. I don’t get to order you around and threaten you with arrest if you don’t comply; and I don’t get to do so even if I carry a badge.
Matt,
Take your psychologizing and your ad hominems elsewhere, please.
I admit my dislike of cops has to do with certain personal choices
Susan, I beg to differ with you and those Libertarians here who still carry a teen-ager’s axe toward police of any ilk… probably because the police represent a threat to your stash of illicit dope or busted your sorry butt for smoking dope at some point.
The issue in the Gates matter was not, despite what YOU may think, about improper police actions or the improper use of appropriate police powers. The police arrested Gates when his typical abusive, angry sub-character got control of his better half and he refused to comply with a proper police order.
The issue is, indeed, one of race-baiting and race-agitating by an Obama activist who has a long history of using race-agitating to inflame, incite and intimidate his opponents. He did it during the 08 race as a talking head on pundit shows for Obama. And for Obama to exercise the kind of misjudgement wherein he condemns the police for “acting stupid” is part of this issue. I wonder if the Great O thought he could exercise some political muscle over the cops and get them to retreat, back down, issue an apology for his black friend and peer?
Gates is a racist bigot toward whites who thinks raising the race card ought to intimidate his opponents –in this case, police. He harbors the exact same resentment toward ANY police the way you do above.
If that were my home, in an area where homes have been burglarized, and the police showed up on my doorstoop after I was trying to gain entry by lifting window sashes, tampering with door locks and the like, I’d have thanked the police for coming, done whatever they asked, been humbled by their effort and that of my neighbor’s to a point of begging their pardon for having put them through that waste of time.
I think you need to get over the teen-age drug bust experience –or whatever motivates your unwarranted antipathy toward police– and move on, Susan. That, or join your libertarain friends in converting their dope stash into medical marijuana… it’ll save you some discomfort the next time “da Man” pops you for a drug bust, eh?
My friend Tom, may have spoken (or written) too sound.
There’s now a breaking scandal on Gates. Turns out he had a “stash” of funds hidden in a “charity organization.” The charity group expended only 27% of its funds on real charity, the rest of went to Gates and his friends at Harvard.
@23 I think it is Nevada cops in general who are that way. I know in the Stateline/Carson City area they are notorious for being overbearing.
To be fair, some police everywhere have the “cop mentality” that the population is something to be controlled and they are the ones to control it. Others are more aware of their role as public servants.
The charges of resisting arrest or disorderly conduct are terribly overused whenever a police officer is feeling crabby and/or someone is being uncooperative or generally rude. Any incident can be escalated or minimized by the actions of the parties involved.
An anonymous report of some potential crime does not give police powers by any means. Still, the situation can be escalated by the response of the homeowner.
At least this wasn’t as bad as the 90-year old woman who was shot to death trying to defend herself in her house in a case of a mistaken address in a drug raid.
Read this story for another outrageous cop incident. Make sure to listen to the 911 calls (on the right).
http://tinyurl.com/lukq9r
Jenna @13,
Do you really think that arresting someone *in his own home* for being rude to a cop is *the job of cops*?
It’s not (much) about race. It’s mostly about the cops thinking that someone abusing them is arrest-worthy.
Imagine a traveling salesmen comes to your door. You tell him to go away, and do it rudely. You are an ass (at that moment), yes, but he has not right to *arrest you*. It’s the same with cops.
ditto Seebeck
You can bet that in 99.9% of cases any arrest under disorderly conduct or resisting is ( as # 25 says a catchall charged) is a case where an officer wants to arrest someone just because he wants to when the “suspect” has not broken any law.
The idea that anyone can be arrested for ONLY “resisting arrest” when there is no arrestable offense is completely fucking insane, yet it seems 99% of people from Joe Sixpack to Jo”Law and Order” and Joe Whateverthefuck support the police when they act lawlessly.
Oh well, as a libertarian I’ve always felt like I’m in a 1% minority, so I’m used to it. It sucks when other self proclaimed libertarians look for every excuse to side with the lawless state over the innocent individual, though.
I think all sides acted badly. The correct procedure was to get the address and owners sorted out from the radio dispatcher before they did anything, then sort out the players.
Crying race is bogus, but so is the ridiculous catchall of ‘disorderly conduct’ and ‘resisting an officer’.
@13: sorry, I’m confused. Whether Gates was racist isn’t the issue here. Suppose he shrieked racial insults at the cop? Since when does impolite conduct justify liberty deprivation? It seems to me that the basic principle has to be that everyone’s on a level playing field morally: being a cop doesn’t entitle you to use force when doing so wouldn’t be OK for someone else; it’s not acceptable for you to confine someone or deprive her or him of his freedom because she or he was insulting or rude. I’ve seen no evidence that Gates posed any credible threat to the officer’s safety; that means that arresting him was a punitive, retaliatory act, not a defensive one, which means it’s not legitimate whether the target of Gates’s conduct was a cop or a little ol’ lady from Pasadena.
http://liberalaw.blogspot.com/2009/07/show-some-respect.html
http://radgeek.com/gt/2009/07/25/black-man-phd/
actually TK , yes Vegas cops are WAY outa control. They are infamously trigger happy.
just last week they shot a unarmed man in the back trying to run away , and last year they shot a handcuffed teenager in the back trying to run away , plus too many other accounts to mention.
of course the Coroners inquests ALWAYS return a verdict of justified .
my run-ins include a drug raid and house party turned violent among others
Another point that Jenna just mentions is the phone call. Anonymous phone calls to police. Recently I was pulling an empty dolly down a sidewalk to a construction site. I was going to a construction site near my house to collect firewood/kindling. It was near enough that I didn’t need to take my van. I had the contractor’s permission & he was there. So all of a sudden here comes not one but three cop cars. They “detained” me asking questions, getting ID & calling in Wants & Warrants. After a while they were satisfied & left. After the W & W came back negative I was going to rant at them but just went on my way. They said a neighbor had called me in anonymously. I have since wondered whether police should only be authorized to act if the call supplied probable cause & a complainant rather than just anonymous finger pointing about something that might be happening.
Tom, you make an important point about law enforcement. But Jenna above also has a point. Further, Obama was elected by scheming liberal democrats like Kennedy & Kerry to have Camelot Revisited. They knew the progressives could be manipulated by the word “change” & some phony get out of Iraq plan. & progressives & liberals would be willing to vote for a black candidate & they could wean=steal BACK the black vote from the Clintons & once nominated the Blue Dog Reagan democrats would be stuck & vote for him out of party loyalty. In other words Obama was elected by taking advantage of race & politics in America not despite it or in overcoming it. & Wayne is incorrect in saying Obama is a radical socialist. Kennedy would never have endorsed anything but a guaranteed liberal democrat.
Tom Knapp makes a good observation. Is this something the Rodney King Caucus will take up?
Jeanna: Yet another Bible Thumping Conservative GOP slumming at IRP ????
“I have never seen such a pathetic display by our President”
So you did sleep thru the Bush I — Clinton I —– Bush II years ????
Thomas Knapp: my good ness you have grown intellectually the last couple of years.
Good, precise, tight responses to your critics.
Hope good things happened in ‘Misery’ earlier this month!
[You birf daze around mid month ??????]
how can anyone be a Keanu Reeves fan ?
How did you know that was me! LOL. So, Keanu=Klatuu?
Oops! Forgot to type in the rest of my name. & Gort is a characterized as a “policeman” (person?)
Bob,
Don’t bother with the new version of The Day the Earth Stood Still. My kids loved it, but I thought it was fairly boring, even though I’m a Keanu Reeves fan.
Why is this still being discussed? I find it disgusting that this situation has turned into a race issue, when the simple matter is that police responded to a call that 2 males broke into a home & they responded to that call. Officer Crawley responded in addition to an African-American officer, who fully backs Officer Crawley in his actions. The problem with this scenario is that they happened to respond to a call at a man’s house who launched into an inappropriate racial tirade, when race had NOTHING to do with the police responding in the first place. The police were simply doing their jobs. Furthermore, Obama showed his true prejudice in responding NATIONALLY to this matter. It is a DISGRACE. How dare Obama to publically defame Officer Crawley for doing his jobs and turning this into a heated racial debate. Now that Obama realizes how the public is responding, he is downplaying his initial response. I have never seen such a pathetic display by our President – it is embarrassing and now every racist in America has something to say about it. Obama should have never become involved in the first place – all he has done successfully is help racially divide America once again.
LG,
Touche.
Tom, I’ve been thinking about something & it is relevent here; As far as science fiction can be relevent. In”The Day the Earth Stood Still” original-I haven’t seen the newest version, Klatuu talks about earth joining their collective of interplanetary societies that once free of aggression initiation, became Free to pursue more profitable enterprises. The judge & arbiter of what is aggression & who first initiated & punishment up to & including summary execution, was Gort, the robot of a race of robots given absolute authority. & a really big & powerful mofo he is!
TK , noone ever puts down the crack-pipe , it either breaks or you run outa crack:)
Keith,
I’m not sure what bet you think I might be hedging. From the beginning of the BTP, I have a) remained an active LP member myself and b) personally advocated the BTP constituting itself as a lessarchist caucus within the LP rather than going its separate way.
If you think that the knee-jerk reactionary melodrama that Wayne continues to peddle is “common sense,” I urge you to put down the crack pipe and seek help.
tab,
I have no “irrational hatred for police.” I’ve seen good cops and bad cops, and have had positive and negative interactions with both types.
What I have an entirely rational problem with is the prevailing (both inside and outside law enforcement) attitude that cops are somehow automatically entitled to be “in charge” in every situation and that it is the duty of all citizens to defer to them in every instance. They aren’t and it isn’t.
Unless new evidence has emerged in the past few hours, you have no idea whether or not Gates provided identification, and neither do I. The difference between us is that you’re making an unsupported factual claim while I’m making a well-supported observation.
tab: Have you actually gotten around to sue the Establishment in [the pro Establishment kangaroo] Court?
[a] finding a lawyer who will risk their career taking on the good ole boys.
[b] when you plough thru the books and sue ‘en pro per’
[c] when the courts act illegally
details: 619.420.0209
we agree there , this factional bullshit is a monumental waste of some very talented peoples time
they won the battle not the war. lets wait and see what the other side can muster up for the next 2 conventions:)
Judging by poll results, I’d say both sides lost. I’d hoped people finally realize this “war” between the two sides is counterproductive. Apparently not.
Although, if we judge by donors and general interest in the LP, I’d say the reformers were clearly successful.
The pragmatists and reformers have won the ideological battle in the LP…
me _ they won the battle not the war.
lets wait and see what the other side can muster up for the next 2 conventions:)
Is Tom Knapp still involved with his fledgling BTP ( Boston Tea Party)? Seems like he’s hedging his bets that the BTP will ever get off the ground as the primary home for libertarian political activism in the US. With such left-leaning attitudes toward Gates and the cops, and with WAR ( Wayne Allyn Root) making lots of poltically incorrect common sense on this and most other issues, I can’t see Mr. Knapp going very far in his campaign for the 2012 LP Presidential nomination. The pragmatists and reformers have won the ideological battle in the LP, and this is why I’ll stick with the LP over any other third party, or the GOP for that matter.
**Excuse the grammar mistakes in that reply. I really need to start editing before I click submit.
To claim the word of a race baiter like Gates is more believable than the police officer’s is hilarious at best. It is all about race. Gates is nothing more than a race baiter trying to place the race card because he couldn’t follow a simple request to provide identification.
If a police officer makes a legitimate request like “can I see your ID.” You should provide your ID. If you believe your rights were violated in the process, sue them afterwords.
I think you let your irrational hatred for police skew this piece. There are over 650,000 police officers in the US. Obviously some will be bad, but for the most part, they do their jobs well on a daily basis.