Over at Chris Cilliza‘s political blog at the Washington Post, he is creating The Fix Political Hall of Fame. While he did not yet induct an independent or third party candidate, he did give an important shout-out.
In his write-up for Fix Hall of Famer Bill Clinton, Cilliza says of the 1992 election, “…Clinton somehow finished second in the New Hampshire primary, declared himself the ‘Comeback Kid’ and ultimately took the nomination and — with an assist from Independent candidate Ross Perot — the presidency.”
413 responses so far ↓
1 Paulie // Jun 15, 2009 at 9:34 am
Assist from Perot? I’m not sure that’s the case. From what I remember, Perot voters were all over the map politically, not necessarily normally Republican voters. Bush was just not popular, the economy was not good, and Clinton was a good campaigner, much better than Bush. It was sort of like 2008 in some ways.
At least, however, this theory is somewhat more plausible than the harebrained rantings of a supposedly “libertarian Republican” woman I tried to get to sign my petition yesterday, who blamed Obama being in office on, of all people, Bob Barr. What a dolt!
Additionally, top Morgantown area Republican activist Cindy Frich insisted she could not sign the petition because she signed one for the Mountain Party several years ago. This woman used to be in the legislature.
With such ignorant leadership, how can their party blame anyone but themselves for their increasingly poor performance in elections?
2 Morgan Brykein // Jun 15, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Again, an independent or third party candidate is treated as a “spoiler” and nothing more. Did they even take into mind that he could have won if he didn’t drop out temporarily?
3 Robert Milnes // Jun 15, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Morgan, it goes beyond that. A billionaire independent-Perot, (Bloomberg?) even if one did ever win, would still be left with a dem & rep congress & governors & judiciary etc. The only electorial alternative is the Progressive Party/Alliance & replacing all the reactionaries with progressives (Greens & Libertarians). Perot 1992 19%, Teddy Roosevelt 1912 27%.
4 Robert Milnes // Jun 15, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Kimberly, I thought the SHOUT OUT….I mean mention, would go to Nader.
5 Erik Geib // Jun 15, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Robert,
When you say “replacing all the reactionaries with progressives”… libertarians are not progressives ideologically (just to point that out). Progressivism is its own ideology.
And I don’t think much of anything about Perot was very libertarian or progressive.
6 Robert Milnes // Jun 15, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Erik, agreed, I’m using the word progressive to be inclusive of libertarians. Some leftists aren’t very progressive either, but they are better than the reactionary alternative + we need all the votes we can get. Perot started as Independent & went on to found the Reform Party. That seemed a more right/centrist movement rather than progressive.
7 Robert Milnes // Jun 15, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Paulie, are you there? How about if some naysayers like you & Tom agree to give the Progressive Libertarian Alliance a fair try?
8 Randy Miller // Jun 15, 2009 at 1:52 pm
More in depth analysis of the Perot dynamic:
http://www.independentvoting.org/video/index.html
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Perot
9 Leymann Feldenstein // Jun 15, 2009 at 2:37 pm
“with an assist from Independent candidate Ross Perot — the presidency.”
Clinton would never have won if Milnes ran instead of Perot. Especially if Milnes had Perot’s money.
I’m still going to write-in Milnes for Governor of New Jersey this November. Who should I vote for Lieutenant-Governor?
10 Donald Raymond Lake // Jun 15, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Near by [Long Island] “Frank MacKay of the Independence movement ???????
11 Michael Seebeck // Jun 15, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Leymann @9:
Catholic Trotskyite, of course. One nut deserves another.
12 mdh // Jun 15, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Why Milnes’ Libertarian/Green alliance can’t work:
1> The policy agendas of these parties differe greatly and are very contradictory in many areas,
2> Libertarians are smug, unwavering, and unwilling to compromise,
3> Greens are smug, unwavering, and unwilling to compromise.
13 Paulie // Jun 15, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Paulie, are you there?
No, I’m somewhere else.
14 whatever // Jun 15, 2009 at 9:31 pm
Paulie, can you hear me?
Can you feel me near you?
15 Robert Milnes // Jun 15, 2009 at 9:49 pm
If Milnes had Perot’s money he’d be in AC with Jack Daniels, Mary Jane and Pussy Galore. To hell with kissing up to political losers’ asses.
16 Robert Milnes // Jun 15, 2009 at 9:50 pm
mdh, agreed.
17 Catholic Trotskyist // Jun 15, 2009 at 10:06 pm
Thanks for the mention Michael. I have returned from my mission for the Vatican, more successful than ever, and on track to become the future Pope by the year 2050. But Robert, how can you expect Paulie and Tom to give the Progressive Alliance a fair try when you won’t give the Fringe Alliance Christian/Left fusion strategy a try, or even respond to it with your critiques?
18 Robert Milnes // Jun 15, 2009 at 10:08 pm
I wonder if Teddy Roosevelt was smug, unwavering and unwilling to compromise.
19 Robert Milnes // Jun 15, 2009 at 10:10 pm
C.T., I’d rather not wind up with an ice pick upside the head.
20 Robert Milnes // Jun 15, 2009 at 10:12 pm
Milnes would find Lady Luck in A.C. also. She owes him.
21 Robert Milnes // Jun 15, 2009 at 10:21 pm
Where is Montana Wildhack?
22 Paulie // Jun 15, 2009 at 10:25 pm
Paulie, can you hear me?
Can you feel me near you?
Yes, but probably not in the way you think.
Too complicated to explain…
23 ladyliberty // Jun 15, 2009 at 11:39 pm
Hey y’all – whatever happened to Andy? The longwinded guy who posts on here sometimes and says he collects signatures too? I have not seen him around very much lately.
24 Mik Robertson // Jun 15, 2009 at 11:41 pm
He’s busy doing ballot access stuff.
25 ladyliberty // Jun 16, 2009 at 12:02 am
For the LP? Or for the other parties? Somebody asked me today if I knew anyone who got signatures for pay and so I thought of Andy. I had thought he was out of California but I’m not sure.
26 Paulie // Jun 16, 2009 at 12:07 am
I do signatures for pay. What about it?
27 Robert Milnes // Jun 16, 2009 at 12:17 am
well paulie?
28 Cynthia Joel // Jun 16, 2009 at 12:21 am
Another guy who collects signatures for pay is named Gary.
I wonder how many signatures Gary has collected in Arizona?
29 Milford Freeman // Jun 16, 2009 at 12:26 am
I also wonder if Gary has collected any signatures since Andy left Arizona? I’ve heard that Gary owes Andy a lot of money.
30 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 12:35 am
I’d like to be on a conference call with Cynthia Joel and Milford Freeman regarding Arizona signatures.
31 M. P. Peterson // Jun 16, 2009 at 12:37 am
I heard that Andy is coming back to Arizona soon to collect his money from Gary. He may even already be on his way. If not, he’ll probably be headed that way real soon. But that’s just what I heard.
I get a lot of text messages all the time, so I can’t really remember who told me that.
32 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 12:37 am
Cynthia and Milford can call in (simultaneously, of course) at my new phone number: (520) 207 7832
33 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 12:39 am
“I heard that Andy is coming back to Arizona soon to collect his money from Gary. He may even already be on his way. If not, he’ll probably be headed that way real soon. But that’s just what I heard.
I get a lot of text messages all the time, so I can’t really remember who told me that.”
I heard that Andy is a hilarious riot that’s a laugh a minute.
34 Catholic Trotskyist // Jun 16, 2009 at 12:40 am
Something weird is going on here. Time to check IP addresses?
35 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 12:40 am
Throw in M.P. Peterson too, on that conference call, while we’re at it.
36 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 12:44 am
“Something weird is going on here. Time to check IP addresses?”
What’s weird? I’m the “Gary” that collects signatures for pay, has also done so in the state of Arizona, and owes Andy a sum of money.
37 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 12:45 am
I should say, “I owe a guy named Andy a sum of money”, since I logically cannot pay every Andy back money, even if I wanted to.
38 M. P. Peterson // Jun 16, 2009 at 12:52 am
Cynthia and Milford actually had their phone shut off because they were getting so many text messages they could not even pay their phone bills. That’s why I, M.P. Peterson, have an unlimited texting plan.
Gary is a really good petitioner who has been known to get as many as 600 signatures signatures in a day on one petition, so I’m sure he wouldn’t mind posting a comment here about how many signatures he got in Arizona since Andy left.
39 paulie // Jun 16, 2009 at 12:59 am
well paulie?
Dry.
40 Catholic Trotskyist // Jun 16, 2009 at 1:07 am
And Robert, Trotsky and Teddy Roosevelt both lived 61 years. Roosevelt was shot in the chest during his presidential campaign and had to live in agonizing pain for the remaining 7 years of his life. Not as bad as an ice-pick, maybe? An ice-pick isn’t as bad as a cross either.
41 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 1:22 am
“Cynthia and Milford actually had their phone shut off because they were getting so many text messages they could not even pay their phone bills. That’s why I, M.P. Peterson, have an unlimited texting plan.”
That’s funny – I had thought that Cynthia and Milford were actually only SENDING texts, not receiving them…hmmm.
42 M. P. Peterson // Jun 16, 2009 at 3:13 am
What? Who’s on first?
43 Thomas L. Knapp // Jun 16, 2009 at 3:16 am
Bob,
You write:
“How about if some naysayers like you & Tom agree to give the Progressive Libertarian Alliance a fair try?”
I’ve given various versions of the Progressive Libertarian Alliance fair tries.
I’ve given YOUR version of the Progressive Libertarian Alliance a fair try.
A “fair try” implies looking at what’s being offered and being willing to take it as far as it’s capable of going.
Metaphorically, your version of the Progressive Libertarian Alliance has consisted of you showing me a rusted out 1936 Studebaker with no tires or engine, up on blocks in someone’s yard, and telling me I should help you win the Indy 500 with it by locating an engine and tires for you using only a map, compass and description phrased as a series of limericks, then carrying them — on my back and on foot — from Billings Montana to your trailer in New Jersey, installing them for you, pumping you full of amphetamines, stuffing you in the car, getting behind it and pushing real hard.
In my opinion, me doing those things would constitute a venture well beyond “fair try” territory.
44 Thomas L. Knapp // Jun 16, 2009 at 3:18 am
“Not as bad as an ice-pick, maybe?”
Trotsky wasn’t killed with an ice pick, he was killed with an ice axe.
45 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 3:30 am
“42 M. P. Peterson // Jun 16, 2009 at 3:13 am
What? Who’s on first?”
Call me, Peterson. You know the number.
46 Left Outfielder Why // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:05 am
M. P. Peterson said “Gary is a really good petitioner who has been known to get as many as 600 signatures signatures in a day on one petition, so I’m sure he wouldn’t mind posting a comment here about how many signatures he got in Arizona since Andy left.”
Gary posted several comments after that but did not answer the question. Instead he keeps talking about phone conferences and playing Who’s on first?
By the way my latest information is that Andy may already be back in Arizona. Somebody sent me this video. I’m not sure who, or whether it has anything to do with Andy being back in Arizona. Draw your own conclusions…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuAVgWJ28Hw
47 Robert Milnes // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:30 am
Tom corrects Milnes and Catholic Trotskyist with one swing of an ice axe. Impressive.
48 Kofi? // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:41 am
Hu’s on First
Playwright Jim Sherman wrote this the day after Hu Jintao was named chief of the Communist Party in China.
HU’S ON FIRST
By James Sherman
(We take you now to the Oval Office.)
George: Condi! Nice to see you. What’s happening?
Condi: Sir, I have the report here about the new leader of China.
George: Great. Lay it on me.
Condi: Hu is the new leader of China.
George: That’s what I want to know.
Condi: That’s what I’m telling you.
George: That’s what I’m asking you. Who is the new leader of China?
Condi: Yes.
George: I mean the fellow’s name.
Condi: Hu.
George: The guy in China.
Condi: Hu.
George: The new leader of China.
Condi: Hu.
George: The Chinaman!
Condi: Hu is leading China.
George: Now whaddya’ asking me for?
Condi: I’m telling you Hu is leading China.
George: Well, I’m asking you. Who is leading China?
Condi: That’s the man’s name.
George: That’s who’s name?
Condi: Yes.
George: Will you or will you not tell me the name of the new leader of China?
Condi: Yes, sir.
George: Yassir? Yassir Arafat is in China? I thought he was in the Middle East.
Condi: That’s correct.
George: Then who is in China?
Condi: Yes, sir.
George: Yassir is in China?
Condi: No, sir.
George: Then who is?
Condi: Yes, sir.
George: Yassir?
Condi: No, sir.
George: Look, Condi. I need to know the name of the new leader of China. Get me the Secretary General of the U.N. on the phone.
Condi: Kofi?
George: No, thanks.
Condi: You want Kofi?
George: No.
Condi: You don’t want Kofi.
George: No. But now that you mention it, I could use a glass of milk. And then get me the U.N.
Condi: Yes, sir.
George: Not Yassir! The guy at the U.N.
Condi: Kofi?
George: Milk! Will you please make the call?
Condi: And call who?
George: Who is the guy at the U.N?
Condi: Hu is the guy in China.
George: Will you stay out of China?!
Condi: Yes, sir.
George: And stay out of the Middle East! Just get me the guy at the U.N.
Condi: Kofi.
George: All right! With cream and two sugars. Now get on the phone.
(Condi picks up the phone.)
Condi: Rice, here.
George: Rice? Good idea. And a couple of egg rolls, too. Maybe we should send some to the guy in China. And the Middle East. Can you get Chinese food in the Middle East?
49 Robert Milnes // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:46 am
I’d say somebody is using this format for communication and somebody is trying to disrupt that-a dirty trick. much like busting Cindy’s windows & taking a computer. & then blaming Cindy using this format. diabolical.
50 Somebody // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:58 am
What’s using this format format for communication, and who’s trying to disrupt?
51 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 10:28 am
“By the way my latest information is that Andy may already be back in Arizona. Somebody sent me this video. I’m not sure who, or whether it has anything to do with Andy being back in Arizona. Draw your own conclusions…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuAVgWJ28Hw”
A better question woul be: Have Arizona prosectors seen this video yet?
52 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 10:36 am
Female petitioners advise me that, when a certain sum is legimately owed originally, but the creditor goes over certain lines of (mis)conduct, chunks should be unilaterally subtracted to address undue stress and mental pain and suffering.
Do female petitioners have the right idea?
53 paulie // Jun 16, 2009 at 11:15 am
A better question woul be: Have Arizona prosectors seen this video yet?
Why, is Andrew Thomas going to put the creators and producers of The Family Guy on trial for inciting violence?
54 paulie // Jun 16, 2009 at 11:24 am
Have Arizona prosectors seen this video yet?
Gary should learn that threats of sicing prosecutors and cops on people, much like threats of suicide, tend to lose credibilty when overemployed.
Perhaps the Arizona prosecutors should consult with Alaska prosecutors and form an interstate taskforce, or maybe refer it to the FBI? (Minor aside: it was Gary who originally sent me this video).
55 mdh // Jun 16, 2009 at 12:12 pm
@52 – No, I think that’s called dishonesty and stealing.
56 mdh // Jun 16, 2009 at 12:15 pm
If I wanted to rip people off, I could. Left, right, up, down, sideways, and diagonally. You know why I don’t? It’s called morals and ethics.
If you owe someone money then it should be a priority to pay them back. Even if you dislike them, you should pay them back and simply not talk to them again after that. When someone considered you a friend and let you borrow large sums of money, you have an obligation to repay that even if feelings change.
People who are dishonest in their financial dealings soon find that they develop a reputation for such and when they need help in the future, find that others are unwilling to help them. The LP is full of kind-hearted people and even generous people, but that only goes so far when you go around not repaying that kindness as was agreed to.
57 Michael Seebeck // Jun 16, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Matt @56,
Well said. You can not pay off the $20 I didn’t loan you any time.
Seriously, it is well-said. Trust matters.
Unfortunately not everyone in the Party leadership or core operations has learned that lesson.
58 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 1:52 pm
“A better question woul be: Have Arizona prosectors seen this video yet?
Why, is Andrew Thomas going to put the creators and producers of The Family Guy on trial for inciting violence?”
Nice try. But I’m in Pima, not Maricopa.
And also, this is about a *threat*, not an inciting of violence. You should know better, shame on you.
59 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 1:58 pm
“Have Arizona prosectors seen this video yet?
Gary should learn that threats of sicing prosecutors and cops on people, much like threats of suicide, tend to lose credibilty when overemployed.
Perhaps the Arizona prosecutors should consult with Alaska prosecutors and form an interstate taskforce, or maybe refer it to the FBI? (Minor aside: it was Gary who originally sent me this video).”
Paul should learn that I didn’t issue any threat at all, of any kind: I merely asked if AZ prosecutors had seen the video (which WAS, on the other hand, sent as a *threat*).
Paul should also learn not to inbibe too much of the crazy weed, since he never owed me any money for which I would have had cause to send him that video threat.
And finally, Paul should learn that Andy just isn’t tough enough to carry it out anyway, with any adeptness.
60 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 2:01 pm
“If you owe someone money then it should be a priority to pay them back. Even if you dislike them, you should pay them back ”
Paul, when you get done smoking, wanna tell these guys about the $4500 I repaid you, taking LESS than a year to do it?
61 libertariangirl // Jun 16, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Gary_Paul should also learn not to inbibe too much of the crazy weed
me-Paulie doesnt smoke weed , he has health issues that make it a bad idea. He told me this in private conversations where he had NO REASON TO LIE.
Paulie_Gary should learn that threats of sicing prosecutors and cops on people, much like threats of suicide, tend to lose credibilty when overemployed
me__ for me it goes WAY FURTHER than a loss of credibility when folks make threats of employing ‘the authorities’.
for me its an end-game . It means 0 trust , no frgiveness , and then keeping the threatmaker at a paranoid distance . someone willng to make threats like that is more willing to use them and I could never take the chance of allowing that kind of risk in my life or my families.
in addition it might be one of the most unlibertarian things one could do.
those are threats to be taken seriouisly and consequences that change lives and destinys.
62 paulie // Jun 16, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Paul should learn that I didn’t issue any threat at all, of any kind
Au contraire. You have threatened to call the cops on me several times. The last time, very implausibly, for “harassing” you by replying to your emails, in a conversation which you started and kept going after I had already asked you to stop emailing me. (Problem fixed – you are once again spam-blocked from my email since then).
You also have threatened numerous other people with cops and prosecutors. Now you are implicitly threatening that you will sic prosecutors on Andy because you think that he posted a video which you think was some kind of threat.
Besides threatening people with cops and prosecutors, your other favorite trick is to repeatedly threaten to kill yourself.
I merely asked if AZ prosecutors had seen the video (which WAS, on the other hand, sent as a *threat*).
That interpretation is yours alone. If it was a threat when you thought Andy posted it in response to you, was it a threat when you sent it to Kohlhaas?
Paul should also learn not to inbibe too much of the crazy weed
When have you ever seen me smoke weed? I don’t smoke weed at all.
since he never owed me any money for which I would have had cause to send him that video threat.
LOL, no. “Sent” does not mean it was directed at me. It was directed at Scott Kohlhaas, but I received it from you. Which you already know.
wanna tell these guys about the $4500 I repaid you, taking LESS than a year to do it?
Sure. Gary paid me back some money that he owed me in 2007-8. It was originally an advance on signatures he was supposed to get in summer 2007, which I had to get instead. Then, he spent most of the next year fucking off, but occasionally had a few bursts where he made a lot of money, and to his credit finally paid me back after a nerve-wracking year during which he kept threatening to kill himself, among other things (with zero interest).
Now, Gary is congratulating himself for paying me in “LESS than a year” as if it was a bank loan. Thing is, I’m not a bank, and not in any position to loan anyone money. Gary can’t get a loan from a bank because he does not have credit or collateral. People who lend money to folks like Gary usually charge three or four digit interest rates, and don’t wait around a year to get paid.
Then again, I don’t have credit or collateral either, and Andy has lent me substantial sums before too, so Gary isn’t the only one.
63 paulie // Jun 16, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Sure. Gary paid me back some money that he owed me in 2007-8. It was originally an advance on signatures he was supposed to get in summer 2007, which I had to get instead.
In fairness, though, Gary was not able to work off that money when he was originally supposed to because of a very serious health issue.
But that doesn’t make it some heroic deed that Gary paid me back in “LESS than a year” when it was supposed to be in three months.
64 libertariangirl // Jun 16, 2009 at 3:18 pm
I need new titties , anyone want to loan me $5,000.
65 paulie // Jun 16, 2009 at 3:20 pm
LOL. Thanks LG!
66 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 3:29 pm
“Now you are implicitly threatening that you will sic prosecutors on Andy because you think that he posted a video which you think was some kind of threat. ”
Mine wasn’t a threat, it was a question, and a rhetorical one at that. If he posted the video, it was a veiled threat (of using force, just as government is using force).
“You have threatened to call the cops on me several times. The last time, very implausibly, for “harassing” you by replying to your emails, in a conversation which you started and kept going after I had already asked you to stop emailing me.”
Well, you’ve got the facts of the matter all twisted around but yeah, you pissed me off and I made an empty threat (YOU were the one who wouldn’t stop emailing me).
“You also have threatened numerous other people with cops and prosecutors. ”
Kohlhaas and Haugh, yes. But only because I lack any portion of the monopoly on force to seek restitution, seeing the lack of an anarcho capitalistic option in place. Both these commited real acts of aggression upon me. So I make no apologies here.
“That interpretation is yours alone. If it was a threat when you thought Andy posted it in response to you, was it a threat when you sent it to Kohlhaas?”
I’m not certain if I actually sent it to Kohlhaas, my memory is fuzzy on if it was actually sent, or just talked about. But if I did, it was merited, since Kohlhaas intentionally fucked me over. Andy is the one who sent it to me in the first place (I didn’t look it up) and if I sent it to Paul at all, it wasn’t sent as a threat, but more as a piece of amusement, per Andy’s idea of sending it to Kohlhaas.
“When have you ever seen me smoke weed? I don’t smoke weed at all. ”
You people aren’t familiar with figures of speech, or hyperbole, I take it. Code for: you must be hallucinating.
“Then, he spent most of the next year fucking off, ”
That’s not precisely true. Do you call landing in the hospital with a major infection “fucking off”? I was unable to work between advance time of late July and early October, and once working, I set about in earnest to pay you off. Immediately after that, I went to Tennessee to work, but you know well what happened with that gig. Sure, I took a slow time of phasing out of the TN gig, but then I started working again, albeit I fit in a 3-week trip to Central America in there (to try to escape the icy roads that were plaguing me as I worked in the norhern U.S.).
After Central America, I went back to working in earnest, culminating in my getting you all the rest of the $$ by mid-July.
So to say I spent the better part of the next year “fucking off” is misleading. Sure, I did a little of it, but mostly was working. And say, don’t you ever “fuck off”, Paul?
A couple of times I thought about handing you the money earlier, to which you replied, “Don’t strap yourself”, which I appreciated both then and now. And finally, when I paid you back, you seemed to be content, and never once asked for monetary interest. It was not part of the deal, and never charged to me (again, appreciated). The only times “interest” was talked about at all, was in terms of allowing you to subcontract through me, which I accomodated when possible.
67 Trent Hill // Jun 16, 2009 at 3:32 pm
LG,
You’d probably have to offer $5,000 in services, duh. Or maybe ~$5000 in post-op pictures/videos.
68 mdh // Jun 16, 2009 at 3:39 pm
Deb, I hear Andy loaned Gary money to go to Costa Rica on vacation. How about I have him “loan” you money for boobs, then loan us both money for us to hit Costa Rica together with enough per diem to cover sampling the best bud on offer? Sounds like a good time to me!
69 mdh // Jun 16, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Trent, maybe Gary could ofrfe3r Andy some “services” to pay him back too?
70 libertariangirl // Jun 16, 2009 at 3:42 pm
LG,
You’d probably have to offer $5,000 in services, duh. Or maybe ~$5000 in post-op pictures/videos.
me__ sounds like a deal to me
71 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 3:43 pm
“Deb, I hear Andy loaned Gary money to go to Costa Rica on vacation”
His loan to me was not “to go to” Costa Rica, but rather in bailing me out as I got robbed (replacing money taken from me). I never said that I didn’t appreciate the loan, however, regardless of its nature, or that I wasn’t going to pay it back.
72 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 3:45 pm
“Trent, maybe Gary could ofrfe3r Andy some “services” to pay him back too?”
That’s disgusting.
73 libertariangirl // Jun 16, 2009 at 3:48 pm
semantics aside…
both the video and the asking if prosecutors had seen it were thinly veiled threats…
the cartoon though seems much more lighthearted than a rhetorical question of the threat of authority
just for the record though , if i ever fuck anyone over id prefer a beating to calling the cops.
74 mdh // Jun 16, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Deb, a beating can be arranged. You never told me you were into that stuff…..
75 libertariangirl // Jun 16, 2009 at 3:53 pm
oh , mdh , you have no idea
76 mdh // Jun 16, 2009 at 3:54 pm
@72 – Andy says that he’s going to recover his money bgy way of your ass.
77 mdh // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Gary, Paulie knows some guys in New York who will loan you some cash that you can use to pay Andy back now.
78 mdh // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Or you could take some money out of Jane’s account while she’s away to pay Andy back.
79 mdh // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:02 pm
@75 – OK, so tell me. Don’t keep me in suspense here.
80 Thomas L. Knapp // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:08 pm
LG,
$5000 for new boobs? Hmmm … any chance of getting to hold on to the old ones as collateral?
81 Paulie // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Gary, Paulie knows some guys in New York who will loan you some cash that you can use to pay Andy back now.
I just talked to them and here is the deal.
They will pay Andy back now.
They will also pay for Gary to go to Thailand and get sexual reassignment surgery.
Then Gary will pay them back with interest in “services”.
They might resell Gary a few times, adding to the debt, but hey…that’s how it goes sometimes..
82 Mary-Anne Watkins // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:12 pm
You people are sick. Is this how libertarians treat eachother? If so, I am glad to be in the constitution party where we have real Christian values instead of perverts and usurious liars and thieves!
83 libertariangirl // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:13 pm
TK__80Thomas L. Knapp // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:08 pm
LG,
$5000 for new boobs? Hmmm … any chance of getting to hold on to the old ones as collateral?
me__ you wouldnt want them a collateral , they suck , thank god for ass-men:)
84 Balph Hader // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:13 pm
This sort of behavior should be heavily taxed and regulated by the federal government.
85 Hairy Scary Gary Goes Fairy // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:16 pm
OK, Andy, I will let you take me up the butt as repayment of the loans. Here’s my proposal. You can butt-bang me 1 time for every $100 I owe you. You can go bareback but I expect lube.
Deal?
86 mdh // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:17 pm
Deb, the suspense is killing me… ;D
87 libertariangirl // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Mary -Jane Watkins // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:12 pm
You people are sick. Is this how libertarians treat eachother? If so, I am glad to be in the constitution party where we have real Christian values instead of perverts and usurious liars and thieves!
me__ perverts maybe , liars and theives rarely, VERY RARELY . In fact LP people are some of the best people, trustworthy and honest that Ive ever met.
but you are correct , the CP is for those with judgements and fairytales:)
88 libertariangirl // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:19 pm
matt whats your private email?
89 Michael Seebeck // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Obviously Sister Mary-Anne forgot about those wonderful “Christian” values like four Crusades, and Inquisition, and persecuting gays and lesbians…not to mention their own inter-denominational wars.
See also Mt. 7:3.
“I like your Christ, but nor your Christians, because they are so unlike your Christ.” -Gandhi.
90 Michael Seebeck // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Besides, she just need to realize it’s just free-market bartering going on here…yeah, it is off-color, but so what?
91 paulie // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:28 pm
Deb, mdh@lpwv.org
92 paulie // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:33 pm
That was actually Matt, as you may have guessed, we are posting from the same computer.
93 mdh // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Paulie accidentally left himself logged in. We’re both sitting here with a laptop in Paulie’s apartment.
94 mdh // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:37 pm
It’s been a while since this thread had anything at all to do with the original post…..
95 Randy Jacobs // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Hi, I am Andy Jacobs’ brother. Lately he has been very upset. Gary, please pay Andy his money so he can take a South American vacation or he will kill himself. Because when one cannot take a South American vacation they are liable to become suicidal.
Alternatively your ass will be accepted in lieu of cash. I may also suggest bturning tricks to earn Andy’s money so you can pay him ASAP.
96 Mary-Anne Watkins // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Mr. Seebeck,
Christianity is the Lord’s one true religion. Heathens shall bow down before the Anti-Christ when Armageddon comes and only the Constitution Party shall be saved. Do not fall for the devil’s trickery, the Librertarian Party has become a work of satan. If you wish to be saved you should go to church and seek the assistance of a preacher. Have you been baptized? Have your children been baptized? If not, you and they are all bound for the lake of fire.
Praise Jesus!
97 Mary-Anne Watkins // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:53 pm
Where do libertarians go when they die, they don’t go to heaven where the angels fly. They go to a lake of fire and fry, won’t see them again till the fourth of July.
98 libertariangirl // Jun 16, 2009 at 5:01 pm
paulie my email was rejected to that address i sent an amail to matts _lists address
99 mdh // Jun 16, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Deb, I got the email, just had to dig it out of the spam box. My email is on the website and stuff so it needs strict spam controls to be useable at all, hahah.
100 libertariangirl // Jun 16, 2009 at 5:05 pm
Mary-Jane__Heathens shall bow down before the Anti-Christ when Armageddon comes and only the Constitution Party shall be saved.
me __ROFL , only the CP , LOL seriously though , MJ has to be joking
Mary-Jane__Where do libertarians go when they die, they don’t go to heaven where the angels fly. They go to a lake of fire and fry, won’t see them again till the fourth of July.
me__ crappy , crappy song
101 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 5:13 pm
Well, since Jesus is a libertarian (“love they neighbor as thyself, don’t throw stones”, etc) REAL libertarians have a place in heaven. However, there doesn’t seem to be very many REAL libertarians, it seems.
102 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 5:18 pm
FYI:
Andy just used the State courts to intimidate me into paying him the $4700 that I owe him.
103 mdh // Jun 16, 2009 at 5:30 pm
I guess he must have felt like he had no other choice to recover the $10,000 that he says you owe him. If he’s suing, attorney’s fees and court costs would probably attach as well.
There’s always option B, see comment #85
104 Larry Hincher // Jun 16, 2009 at 5:33 pm
I guess he must have felt like he had no other choice to recover the $10,000 that he says you owe him. If he’s suing, attorney’s fees and court costs would probably attach as well.
There’s always option B, see comment #85
But only because Andy lacks any portion of the monopoly on force to seek restitution, seeing the lack of an anarcho capitalistic option in place.
105 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 5:49 pm
“But only because Andy lacks any portion of the monopoly on force to seek restitution, seeing the lack of an anarcho capitalistic option in place.”
Exactly. See how EVERYONE does it?
Funny thing is, I’ve not broken any law or contract.
106 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Oops, looks like there’s a real dispute over amounts owed.
107 paulie // Jun 16, 2009 at 5:51 pm
Gary, do you find this video threatening? Are you going to call a prosecutor?
108 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 5:53 pm
Or maybe just a typo somewhere.
109 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 5:54 pm
“Gary, do you find this video threatening? Are you going to call a prosecutor?”
I don’t know – I didn’t watch it.
110 Harry Sphinctcher // Jun 16, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Then watch it and let us know what you think, genius. Law students are counting on you for future employment!
By the way how is your lawsuit against Angela Keaton and Tom Knapp coming along?
111 libertariangirl // Jun 16, 2009 at 6:18 pm
ok , im a virtual newbie , give the low-down on why he’s suing Keaton and Knapp
defamation of character?
112 Thomas L. Knapp // Jun 16, 2009 at 6:37 pm
LG,
You write:
“you wouldnt want them a collateral , they suck , thank god for ass-men:)”
I’m an everything man, and tend to find charming qualities in all, um, parts.
I’m assuming that only the first comment from Ms. Watkins is actually from her and that the succeeding ones are spoofs. I could be wrong, of course — if so, I congratulate her on successfully manifesting as a cardboard cutout of herself. But even per the first comment, I doubt she’d recognize a “real Christian value” if one walked up behind her and hit her in the ass with a bass fiddle.
113 Thomas L. Knapp // Jun 16, 2009 at 6:46 pm
LG,
So far as I know, Mr. Fincher isn’t suing me — at least I haven’t been served. As to whether he’s suing Ms. Keaton, I haven’t the slightest idea, but I communicate with her frequently and she hasn’t mentioned it if he is.
In my experience, 99%+ of “litigious talk” ends at the “talk” stage. The plaintiff to be may realize he doesn’t have a case or that the case isn’t worth the cost and effort of pursuing; or the respondent to be may realize he’s busted and offer some kind of olive branch. Either way, these things usually work themselves out without the involvement of lawyers, courts, etc.
114 mdh // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:03 pm
I like big butts and I will not lie.
You other brothers can’t deny.
115 mattilda d herass // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:08 pm
I like big butts and I will not lie.
You other brothers can’t deny.
Especially the big hairy manly ones, like Gary’s!
116 libertariangirl // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:11 pm
mattilda d herass // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:08 pm
me__ weak pseudonym but funnyfunny
117 Paula Schpankel // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:13 pm
Do you think it’s better than Paula Schpankel?
118 Steven R Linnabary // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:19 pm
I like square butts…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nopKDuydRo
119 paulie // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:25 pm
Gary threatens to sue Jim Davidson:
http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/10/boston-tea-party-organizational-update/comment-page-2/#comment-19357
120 Paul // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Who the FUCK has been posting shit using my pen name?
121 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:31 pm
“Then watch it and let us know what you think, genius. Law students are counting on you for future employment!”
Because it wasn’t made to look “sexy” enough for me to click on, that’s why. Duh. Does that take a rocket scientist to figure out that proper packaging is everything in marketing?
122 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:32 pm
Keaton engaged in activity that was tantamount to suing me, would be essentially countersuit, still pending.
123 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:37 pm
“Gary threatens to sue Jim Davidson:
http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/10/boston-tea-party-organizational-update/comment-page-2/#comment-19357”
Attorney asked me for information that Davidson provided, freely, withoout duress. The fact that someone portends to be a witness in a lawsuit does NOT mean they are the ones being sued. But I’m not surprised that you aren’t able to tell the difference.
124 Carrie Pincher // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:41 pm
I will sue everyone reading this thread, including myself! And I’m calling the cops on all of you too and turning you over to state prosecutors.
Because that’s just what a REAL libertarian like me and Jesus does.
125 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:42 pm
Does someone smell a moron here?
126 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:45 pm
Here, Paulie:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness
127 Ronald Ernest Paul // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:49 pm
I don’t like Gary Fincher. I think he’s a socialist.
128 Michael Seebeck // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:49 pm
Mary-Anne @96: Heard that before. Still waiting for the postcard from the afterlife, too. In the meantime, you can take the Apocalyptic Robertson Shtick and screech preach it to someone who A) actually cares, and B) still hasn’t graduated from or evolved past the religious second grade.
To quote the libertarian wisdom of Rush (the band, not that fool Limbaugh):
129 Michael Seebeck // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:53 pm
BTW, Mary-Anne, I’m the grandson of a preacher. I was saved before I was ever conceived, not that it matters a damn. See James 2:14-18.
And people wonder why a union between CP and LP will never happen? This is why, folks, this is why.
130 libertariangirl // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:57 pm
ive been baptized generic Christian , baptized and saved ; Baptist and then baptized Mormon .
my parents always sent us off with other family or the town ‘church bus’ . They liked the time off I geuss .
at any rate if any of these ghost stories turns out to be true ive got a 3 spot goin for me and my salvation , way way better than you folks only baptized into one religion.
spread the bet suckers…
131 libertariangirl // Jun 16, 2009 at 8:01 pm
MS_And people wonder why a union between CP and LP will never happen? This is why, folks, this is why.
me_ yup , exactly
132 Michael Seebeck // Jun 16, 2009 at 8:03 pm
I was baptized into two myself, but only practice the second, because the first was done by humans, and the second by Mother Nature herself.
I can honestly say that if it all ended tomorrow I can stand there confidently at whatever judgment (if any) there is and say truthfully, “I did my best with what I got, and if that ain’t good enough for ya, then it’s your fault for not giving me enough of what I got to make it good enough.”
133 Paulie // Jun 16, 2009 at 8:05 pm
ive been baptized generic Christian , baptized and saved ; Baptist and then baptized Mormon .
Have you been baptized in the church of the Big Pee? Kneel before me and receive the one true salvation..
134 libertariangirl // Jun 16, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Have you been baptized in the church of the Big Pee?
been there
135 mdh // Jun 16, 2009 at 10:12 pm
I’ve received a baptism by fire, as it were.
136 Gary // Jun 16, 2009 at 10:12 pm
“127 Ronald Ernest Paul // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:49 pm
I don’t like Gary Fincher. I think he’s a socialist.”
Nope, anarchist. And Ron Paul would never say that.
137 Catholic Trotskyist // Jun 16, 2009 at 11:35 pm
Mary, quite an interesting poem I must say. yes I know how you feel, there are a lot of usurious preves and liars on this thread. But don’t condemn everyone to hell just because they disagree with you. Purgatory is the real truth, according to the teachings of our Holy Mother Church, which you probably don’t belong to; the people who will go to purgatory for the longest are the Nazis, stalinists and Naderites. Jesus was not a libertarian, it’s true; what about Give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s? The sacrifice of Trotsky under the ice-axe has cleared the way for universal salvation, as foretold ex cathedra in the Bibe lCode Book of Revelation, amen.
138 Michael Seebeck // Jun 17, 2009 at 1:23 am
CT, Purgatory is a ski area in Colorado. Otherwise it is a non-biblical creation of the Vati-CON, right along with limbo.
Yes, Jesus was a libertarian who believed in the separation of church and state.
Yes, CT, you are a nut.
139 Gary // Jun 17, 2009 at 1:39 am
“what about Give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s?”
In Matthew 22:21, Jesus said to give to Caesar the things which are Caesar’s and give to God the things which are God’s; he never said to give anything to Caesar – quite the contrary.
Psalm 24 says that “The Earth is th e Lord’s and the fullness thereof.”
So you do the math.
140 Gary // Jun 17, 2009 at 1:40 am
And btw, Jesus was an anarchist who didn’t believe in the State’s authority, his teachings correctly understood.
141 Thomas L. Knapp // Jun 17, 2009 at 2:59 am
Jesus was a putative messiah — a priest/king of the Davidic line whose job, per Jewish scripture, was to kick Roman ass, boot the Hasmonean quislings, and set the Davidic monarchy back up as a “kingdom of God.”
The twaddle about personal divinity, literal son of God, a whole new religion, etc. was introduced by the first major heretic, Saul of Tarsus, a/k/a Paul (who was probably working for Rome the whole time).
142 Paulie // Jun 17, 2009 at 6:46 am
Have you been baptized in the church of the Big Pee?
been there
Oops, I meant the Church of Big P
143 Paulie // Jun 17, 2009 at 6:47 am
Jesus was an anarchist
True. Extensive analysis at http://www.anti-state.com/redford/redford4.html
144 Carrie Pincher // Jun 17, 2009 at 7:08 am
Jesus and I have the same attorney, and we are very litigious! Repent your slanders against my good name, or you will face arrest, prosecution, court costs, attorneys fees, imprisonment, eternal damnation, and final judgment!
145 merry lyncher // Jun 17, 2009 at 9:50 am
all of you should be executed
146 Mik Robertson // Jun 17, 2009 at 9:52 am
“all of you should be executed”
Or at least they should all be excused.
147 Carrie Pincher // Jun 17, 2009 at 10:01 am
You’re out of order! I’m out of order! Off with your heads!
148 robert capozzi // Jun 17, 2009 at 10:12 am
Rendering unto Caesar is an interesting idea, cleverly put. It’s conditioned on “that which is Caesar’s.”
Nothing is Caesar’s, as Caesar doesn’t create…Caesar only takes.
OTOH, some things are temporarily Caesar’s, so no need fret about some functions that have the effect of maintaining peace on Earth. All things in moderation, after all.
149 libertariangirl // Jun 17, 2009 at 10:14 am
this thread is all over the place …
we must be bored
good morning
150 Quoter // Jun 17, 2009 at 10:16 am
“Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice; moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.”
151 paulie // Jun 17, 2009 at 10:20 am
this thread is all over the place …
we must be bored
It’s more of a tapestry than a thread
good morning
Good morning…
Today’s music track:
http://armyofrage.com/
152 mdh // Jun 17, 2009 at 10:26 am
You had that on yesterday Paulie.
How about some metal today…
I suggest Sonata Arctica – To create a war-like feel. You should check it out.
153 libertariangirl // Jun 17, 2009 at 10:29 am
I like it , it said on the page; REBELS AGAINST GOVERNMENT EMPIRE
thats cool , i like the lyrics and the style , the beat could step it up
154 libertariangirl // Jun 17, 2009 at 10:31 am
I suggest the album ALL REBEL ROCKERS by Michael Franti/Spearhead.
my favorite song on that album is A LITTLE BIT OF RIDDIM.
very political album ive been hooked on for a few months . been spreading it everywhere like dope , please check it out
155 mdh // Jun 17, 2009 at 10:35 am
I can’t remember where, but I once met Michael Franti while I was doing the Ron Paul campaign thing.
156 libertariangirl // Jun 17, 2009 at 10:41 am
he is so awesome , did he have dreds or no dreds .
check his music out
the early stuff is good but with a tint of socialism but he has grown becuz the new stuff is right on the money.
i fucking love that album and i love michael franti , hes been my favorite for bout 4 years
157 libertariangirl // Jun 17, 2009 at 10:41 am
next to the Grateful Dead , of course , i mean duh
158 robert capozzi // Jun 17, 2009 at 10:49 am
quoter, extremism may well not be a vice, but it generally is ineffective, as Goldwater illustrated.
think globally, act locally, or perhaps eyes on the prize, seems the more productive model…
159 libertariangirl // Jun 17, 2009 at 10:52 am
Ive always believed that the ‘mainstream’ never accomplishes anything but furthering the status quo , and that extremism , dissent and having huge balls is what invokes change.
160 mdh // Jun 17, 2009 at 11:15 am
You’re all wrong. For some demographics, you want to appear more mainstream. For others, way way more radical. Know your demographics. One size does not fit all.
161 mdh // Jun 17, 2009 at 11:16 am
Oh, and sometimes, mixing a mainstream look and sound with a radical message can do incredible things. Ever advocate private nukes while wearing business attire and speaking well? Well, it works well with some demographics!
162 libertariangirl // Jun 17, 2009 at 11:24 am
matt i emailed you back , make sure youve put me off your spam filter
163 robert capozzi // Jun 17, 2009 at 11:36 am
lg, I used to believe that, too. bu then I considered the extremist soapbox lunatic, who, near as I can tell, has “balls” but is utterly ineffective.
There’s a range of mainstream to utopianism. Myself, I prefer to see the LP on the edge of the mainstream, influencing large numbers to be thinking and agitating lessarchy.
I’d say that takes MORE “balls,” as it’s way harder to be both principled AND relevant. It’s real easy to wave one’s hand and say “smash the State.” It may even appeal to one’s sanctimonious impulse to hold high the banner of destinational aspirations. But what’s it actually get ya?
164 libertariangirl // Jun 17, 2009 at 11:45 am
we agree , it does take balls to be a libertarian and even more-so to be a LP activist .
you misunderdstand me , even what we consider ‘on the edge of mainstream is ‘extremism ‘to most.
I have very extreme veiws but i dont necessarily let them outs the bag while recruiting people for the LP , and definately not when campaigning . I first size up the person or crowd then adjust my message to resonate the best with them .
165 Michael Seebeck // Jun 17, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Look mainstream, act extreme, and interesting things happen.
Look extreme, act mainstream, and you get ignored.
Look mainstream, act mainstream, and you’ll be up the creek without a paddle.
Look extreme, act extreme, and you get labelled a rebel, kook, nut, crazy, terrorist, whackjob, truther, tinfoil hatter, etc. ad nauseum.
166 robert capozzi // Jun 17, 2009 at 3:05 pm
ms, can you give some ex.s of how looking mainstream but acting extreme has made “interesting” things happen?
167 Catholic Trotskyist // Jun 17, 2009 at 3:26 pm
The Catholic Trotskyist movement is an example of looking mainstream and acting extreme.
168 paulie // Jun 17, 2009 at 3:41 pm
You had that on yesterday Paulie.
I have it on frequently.
I suggest Sonata Arctica – To create a war-like feel. You should check it out.
I suggest the album ALL REBEL ROCKERS by Michael Franti/Spearhead.
my favorite song on that album is A LITTLE BIT OF RIDDIM.
next to the Grateful Dead , of course , i mean duh
169 libertariangirl // Jun 17, 2009 at 3:43 pm
P , did you like Franti?
170 paulie // Jun 17, 2009 at 3:49 pm
extremism may well not be a vice, but it generally is ineffective, as Goldwater illustrated.
I don’t think that’s what he illustrated. His campaign galvanized a movement, foreshadowed the Republican southern strategy (1972 to present), and made the Reagan presidency and the 1994 “Republican revolution” in congress possible.
The extremism of the socialist movement ~100 years ago made modern day mainstream concensus policy.
As Brad Spangler puts it,
More importantly, the demand that radicals abandon radicalism shows a profound ignorance of the dynamics of social change as they manifest in the real world of politics. The continuing crisis of accelerating descent into ever-increasing statism that Young Republican types point to and use to shrilly demand you fall in line behind their at-best-merely-nominally “small government” reform efforts is itself proof that what they ask for doesn’t work.
It’s easy to see why the libertarian movement has been ineffective. Libertarians often roll over for this sort of demand that they let themselves be co-opted by the “small government” statists and thus share in their guilt. In doing so, they fail to hold the radical libertarian banner aloft. In abandoning the project of revolution, political pressure for reform also gets sabotaged.
Effective reform efforts tend to be “conservative” ruling class responses to radical challenges to the status quo. If the tiny minority who *could* be effective radicals capable of building such a radical challenge to the status quo allow themselves to be hectored into acting like reformists, no political pressure for reform materializes and reform doesn’t happen either.
http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/1364
171 paulie // Jun 17, 2009 at 3:50 pm
did you like Franti?
Yes
172 libertariangirl // Jun 17, 2009 at 3:58 pm
BRAD SPNGLR_If the tiny minority who *could* be effective radicals capable of building such a radical challenge to the status quo allow themselves to be hectored into acting like reformists, no political pressure for reform materializes and reform doesn’t happen either.
me __ I like that and I think i kinda resemble that . im going to take some time and contemplate that , seriously.
173 robert capozzi // Jun 17, 2009 at 3:59 pm
pc, I’d agree that Goldwater galvanized a movement. That movement has been ineffective, as government has gotten MUCH bigger than it was in 1964.
I think a better model is the peace model of Gandhi and Lao Tsu, ie, a path of least resistance vs. polarization and dualism.
174 Third Party Revolution // Jun 17, 2009 at 4:10 pm
I noticed that there are alot of comments on this particular article. At the current rate, it will eventually have more comments than the article about Angela Keaton resigning from the LNC.
175 robert capozzi // Jun 17, 2009 at 4:13 pm
all due respect to Spangler’s opinions, but it sounds like cartoon. there was a broad range of socialist thought, from dogmatic Marxists to socially acceptable Fabians.
And straw men…there are no “demands” that “radicals” give up their “radicalism.” Indeed, I often suggest that radicals get MORE radical, to REALLY check their premises. Is holding high the banner REALLY radical, or is it posing?
176 paulie // Jun 17, 2009 at 4:20 pm
I’d agree that Goldwater galvanized a movement. That movement has been ineffective, as government has gotten MUCH bigger than it was in 1964.
Only if you buy into the premise that the main thrust of that movement was for smaller government.
Actually, much of it was to increase the military budget, increase government-big business cooperation, and later increase government in some social aspects (pro-war on drugs, for example).
It can also be argued that it did result in some deregulation and some holding of the line on taxes, regulation and spending that would otherwise have occurred.
177 paulie // Jun 17, 2009 at 4:21 pm
I noticed that there are alot of comments on this particular article. At the current rate, it will eventually have more comments than the article about Angela Keaton resigning from the LNC.
Long way to go on that one…let’s get it done! lol
178 libertariangirl // Jun 17, 2009 at 4:26 pm
At the current rate, it will eventually have more comments than the article about Angela Keaton resigning from the LNC.
me—wont happen
179 robert capozzi // Jun 17, 2009 at 4:48 pm
pc, seems you want it both ways!
I somewhat agree with your take on the conservative movement. But I’d say Goldwater was in some ways more L than conservative.
So, maybe Goldwater was a failure because the movement left him! Perhaps his call for “extremism” unleashed forces that actually accelerated the growth of government, not unlike the Abolitionists. In their heart they too were right. Being “right” is only part of the equation.
180 paulie // Jun 17, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Goldwater had a few libertarian leanings, but I wouldn’t say he was more libertarian than conservative. It is, however, true that the movement left him on certaint social issues.
In what manner do I want it both ways?
181 paulie // Jun 17, 2009 at 4:52 pm
wont happen
Probably not. We’ll see though…
182 robert capozzi // Jun 17, 2009 at 5:03 pm
pc, you’re saying his extremism galvanized a moment but that that movement shared few of his values.
The wilder the pendulum swings in one direction leads to a counter swing. Extremism uncorks wacky ideas.
183 Erik Geib // Jun 17, 2009 at 5:10 pm
The most prominent example of ‘radical’ success is the American Revolution, and even then figures such as Jefferson, Henry, Mason, and Paine had their movement subverted by statists like Hamilton. The original experiment that was America certainly had many gains for liberty, but, thanks to its original infiltration by statists, the U.S. Has become increasingly less free.
184 Gary // Jun 17, 2009 at 5:11 pm
“Rendering unto Caesar is an interesting idea, cleverly put. It’s conditioned on “that which is Caesar’s.”
Nothing is Caesar’s, as Caesar doesn’t create…Caesar only takes.
OTOH, some things are temporarily Caesar’s, so no need fret about some functions that have the effect of maintaining peace on Earth. All things in moderation, after all.”
My post indicated that Caesar had a total of zero coming to him/it, either permanent or temporary. Caesar has the opposite effect of “maintaining peace on earth” – a destabilizing influence that’s pretty darn apparent.
185 mdh // Jun 17, 2009 at 5:27 pm
Remember Paulie’s right-on words in 151. This is more of a tapestry than a thread. We hit on many of the points needed to make a thread successful.
A> Squabbling amongst petitioners
B> Sex
C> Anarchists vs. minarchists
D> Milnes’ silliness
E> Paulie posting a bunch of videos
F> Intentional trolling of readers/commenters
We missed, however…
A> LNC drama
B> Green party national steering committee drama
C> Free drugs
D> Wayne Root is {good,evil,great,a Republican,etc}
Let’s see if we can hammer those last few out, kids!
186 mdh // Jun 17, 2009 at 5:29 pm
By the way, a challenge to Kimberly Wilder: Read Dred Scott’s revenge, the new book by Napolitano. I am reading it now, and we should discuss the subject matter after we’re both finished reading it.
187 robert capozzi // Jun 17, 2009 at 5:36 pm
gary, sure, Caesar is destabilizing in the sense that governments coerce and make war. The absence of Caesar is largely untried, with Somalia not working out too well. We can look forward to Friedman’s seasteading experiment.
188 mdh // Jun 17, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Caesar could’ve been kept in check if others had private nukes.
189 Third Party Revolution // Jun 17, 2009 at 5:40 pm
Technically it is possible to beat that article about Angela Keaton in comments. Like right now we are 187/734 of the way through, or 25.5%
190 robert capozzi // Jun 17, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Erik, I used to have your view of the Revolution, but it seems to me now that it was a coalition of mutual interests that mostly wanted self-determination. The State’s size pre and post Revolution wasn’t appreciably different. Mercantilists and natural law agrarians came together to change the form of government, but the effect of government changed little.
191 Catholic Trotskyist // Jun 17, 2009 at 5:48 pm
You forgot about me, or am I just considered another troll?
I heard that the LNC has finally united, including former members such as Lee Rights and Angela Keaton, in order to fight against the Green steering committee to enter a contest in which Wayne Allyn Root is offering some free drugs if they can come up for the best slogan for his 2012 presidential campaign. Does anyone know if that’s true?
192 Michael Seebeck // Jun 17, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Who you calling “kids?”
A) The Wrights ruling is due by June 21.
B) Who cares?
C) Pass the caffeine.
D) A tool who needs to color his hair, turn down the lumens on his teeth, and learn to speak slower and with less volume.
193 mdh // Jun 17, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Mike,
Michael Cavlan, his sweety Audrey, Kimberly Wilder, and a few others care about the GP drama. It’s kind of interesting to watch, especially as it relates to our own internecine strife. Furthermore, it is one of the ingredients which can lead to a long and exciting thread, and is worth listing. We congratulate the Green Party on their success in achieving that ranking on IPR.
Anyways, it seems like your comment on D was meant to evoke some responses. I personally think Root’s hair color looks good on him and given his circumstances I might go the same route. Discuss.
194 libertariangirl // Jun 17, 2009 at 6:04 pm
C> Free drugs
how did i miss that thread ? anyone?
195 mdh // Jun 17, 2009 at 6:18 pm
Deb, that’s any LP thread…
196 Gary // Jun 17, 2009 at 6:35 pm
“Technically it is possible to beat that article about Angela Keaton in comments. Like right now we are 187/734 of the way through, or 25.5%”
Don’t you mean 196/735?
197 Thomas L. Knapp // Jun 17, 2009 at 6:36 pm
Bump! 196/734
198 Thomas L. Knapp // Jun 17, 2009 at 6:37 pm
er … that should’ve been 197/735.
Yay! 198/735!
199 Gary // Jun 17, 2009 at 6:44 pm
“gary, sure, Caesar is destabilizing in the sense that governments coerce and make war. The absence of Caesar is largely untried, with Somalia not working out too well. We can look forward to Friedman’s seasteading experiment.”
Not really largely UNTRIED, but largely FETTERED. It’s been tried before, with no evidence of it failling (relative to its alternative).
Since Caesar is in fact a destabilizing force, reason demands that removing (the biggest) destablizing force will result in more stabilization.
As to a stateless society, Rothbard notes ancient Celtic Ireland, which flourished in anarchism roughly between 600 AD – 1600 AD. See here, pp 235-236:
http://mises.org/rothbard/foranewlb.pdf
200 robert capozzi // Jun 17, 2009 at 6:58 pm
gary, yes, I’m familiar with MNR’s opinions. Tribal clans look like State’s to me, but, regardless, there’ve been State on the Emerald Isle for centuries, at least. Statelessness needs to be able to stand against States to be sustainable, says reason…to me! Mere constructs lack reality.
201 Gary // Jun 17, 2009 at 7:07 pm
“gary, yes, I’m familiar with MNR’s opinions. Tribal clans look like State’s to me, but, regardless, there’ve been State on the Emerald Isle for centuries, at least. Statelessness needs to be able to stand against States to be sustainable, says reason…to me! Mere constructs lack reality.”
Robert, did you happen to catch this sentence, from page 236: “For a thousand years, then, ancient Celtic Ireland had no State or
anything like it.”? (Emphasis on ‘or anything like it’)
Stateless societies stand up BETTER to States, than States do against States, and even Harry Browne noted the fact that a privately armed citizenry is a more powerful deterrant and formidable foe than conquering a single State apparatus.
As Hitler realized with Switzerland and Jesse James found out in Northfield, Minnesota on Sept 7, 1876.
202 Gary // Jun 17, 2009 at 8:08 pm
“Paulie: Besides threatening people with cops and prosecutors, your other favorite trick is to repeatedly threaten to kill yourself. ”
Forgot this from yesterday. Since when does a libertarian not support the right to suicide??
203 Michael Seebeck // Jun 17, 2009 at 8:27 pm
Matt @193,
B) = The Greens are now the redheaded stepchild of the majority power, which means their own influence is waning and shut up away from sight until such time as the majority power loses their majority. It was the same with the LP when the GOP was in power, and it showed.
D) = SNARK.
204 libertariangirl // Jun 17, 2009 at 9:35 pm
Gary__Forgot this from yesterday. Since when does a libertarian not support the right to suicide??
Libertarians support the right to suicide as does Paulie I’m sure . when he said ‘favorite trick ‘ I believe he was referring to the manipulative power the threat-maker holds over those who dont want the person to die .
thats what threatening suicide is , its an emotional power-grab.
205 libertariangirl // Jun 17, 2009 at 9:39 pm
C> Free drugs
final answer
206 Gary // Jun 17, 2009 at 11:17 pm
“Libertarians support the right to suicide as does Paulie I’m sure . when he said ‘favorite trick ‘ I believe he was referring to the manipulative power the threat-maker holds over those who dont want the person to die .
thats what threatening suicide is , its an emotional power-grab.”
Not in my case. Mine was authentic – it’s just that I’ve always “worn my heart on my sleeve”, so to speak. But I don’t wish to go into detail on a public forum all the crap in the avalanche that would bring me to the brink of that choice…if you don’t mind.
207 Gary // Jun 17, 2009 at 11:18 pm
p.s. And Paul said it scornfully, vis a vis something tantamount to committing aggression. That was the vein it was said in.
208 Catholic Trotskyist // Jun 18, 2009 at 2:11 am
Let’s keep moving if we want to reach the 700 comments. Should I write another rap song as I did a few months ago, which got criticized by Libertarian Joseph (now known as AnarchoJoseph), where is he anyway?
God bless the state, God bless the church, and God bless Barack Obama, amen. Goodnight angels.
209 Another Gary // Jun 18, 2009 at 2:13 am
So who exactly is this guy Catholic Trotskyist? How long has he been posting here? Is he for real? Some of his ideas sound interesting, but he seems to contradict himself a lot and introduce a lot of non-sequitores into his post. I have been reading this site for about a week now and he only showed up a couple days ago, but a few of you seem to know him.
210 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 4:38 am
Gary,
Rest assured that I support your right to suicide. However, given the number of times you have threatened to kill yourself, I no longer take it seriously, and wouldn’t waste time trying to talk you out of it again. Honestly, I think you are too egotistic to really do it, and just want the sympathy/attention.
Another Gary,
CT is a long time IPR regular, but sometimes takes breaks to go on missions to the Vatican, other planets, travel in time, etc. He inhabits that extraordinary zone where madness meets genius and the ridiculous becomes the sublime.
211 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 4:46 am
B) = The Greens are now the redheaded stepchild of the majority power, which means their own influence is waning and shut up away from sight until such time as the majority power loses their majority. It was the same with the LP when the GOP was in power, and it showed.
The LP will remain marginal until such time as it breaks out completely of the Republican orbit and can no longer be pigeonholed on the “right” by most people.
The same can be said of the Greens vis a vis the Republicans and the left.
It is ironic that ‘conservationist’ shares its roots with ‘conservative’ while ‘libertarian’ shares its roots with ‘liberal’. Both parties would do well to explore those roots.
212 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 4:48 am
Free drugs
TANSTAAFD
213 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 4:51 am
Should I write another rap song as I did a few months ago
Go on with your bad self.
Libertarian Joseph (now known as AnarchoJoseph), where is he anyway?
Anywhere else better than here.
214 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 4:52 am
TANSTAAFD*
*Escape clause via double negative?
215 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 4:57 am
Michael Cavlan, his sweety Audrey, Kimberly Wilder, and a few others care about the GP drama.
I do too. I find it morbidly fascinating.
216 Gary // Jun 18, 2009 at 5:00 am
“Honestly, I think you are too egotistic to really do it, and just want the sympathy/attention.”
Nope – as I came close to doing it a couple of times. What I wanted was OUT, but I never expected you to understand anyway.
Keep misunderstanding me, I don’t care. And I CERTAINLY didn’t want you to “talk me out of” it (at the time).
217 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 5:01 am
even Harry Browne noted the fact that a privately armed citizenry is a more powerful deterrant and formidable foe than conquering a single State apparatus.
And he was correct. Guerrilla forces have frequently fought modern armies to exhaustion (Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc). The Japanese considered the prospect of invading the US in WW2, and decided against it because too many Americans had guns.
218 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 5:03 am
And I CERTAINLY didn’t want you to “talk me out of” it (at the time).
My apologies. If you ever want to kill yourself again, you have my blessing.
219 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 5:05 am
The same can be said of the Greens vis a vis the Republicans and the left.
Democrats, not Republicans, doh.
Yes, I could just go in the control panel and fix it, but we’re trying to run the comment count up here, and this is easier.
220 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 5:11 am
I personally think Root’s hair color looks good on him and given his circumstances I might go the same route. Discuss.
oldie but goodie
221 Robert Capozzi // Jun 18, 2009 at 5:15 am
gary 201: Stateless societies stand up BETTER to States, than States do against States, and even Harry Browne noted the fact that a privately armed citizenry is a more powerful deterrant and formidable foe than conquering a single State apparatus.
me: Pre-1945, perhaps. Even there, you cite Switzerland, which HAD/HAS a State! MNR can change the subject as he so often did. Clans are states.
Statements about “powerful deterrents” are opinions. Browne had one. Yet it seems completely disconnected from the modern world, where the technology of killing and control moves at the speed of sound.
Charming (and rare) pre-20th century analogies don’t hold.
222 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 5:17 am
D> Wayne Root is {good,evil,great,a Republican,etc}
My comments on Tom Knapp’s review of the Wayne Root radio show
TLK: “As a candidate, I’ve repeatedly promised “a different kind of presidential campaign.” While this isn’t exactly what I had in mind when I came up with that slogan, it seems to fit into the general theme — I’m going to say nice things about one of my opponents.
Wayne Allyn Root has his own radio show. Not just “Internet radio,” either — it airs on Saturday mornings in three major markets (New York, Chicago and Los Angeles).
Folks, it ain’t bad. I’ve listened to a lot of talk radio in my day (and done some myself), and I’ve heard worse — a lot worse. Wayne’s … enthusiastic … style, which comes off as overbearing in some settings, is just a little north of normal in this shock-jock-dominated medium.”
p] As a candidate who has done talk radio yourself, my advice (which you know by now, but this advice is not necessarily just for you) is to do a lot more radio (and TV and every other communication medium Root is using to reach people – and then some).
Otherwise, those people who merely want the LP’s message to reach a lot more people – more so than they care about the fine points of that message, or whether it is pointed left or right – will gravitate to Root by default.
There are many of those people in the LP, and many of them could be persuaded by someone who doesn’t believe that a “mainstream” and “conservative” audience makes the best target for libertarian evangelism – if only such a person was also making an equivalent effort at some form of libertarian evangelism to Root’s, and was a candidate against Root for the nomination.
I happen to agree with you that the mainstream/conservative audience is worse than a dry hole, and I think that bringing any more of those folks in may well actually be counterproductive – and may be actively getting in the way of bringing in much larger numbers of non-conservative and non-mainstream people than we could ever realistically hope to bring in the way of “conservative, mainstream” people.
But, I also agree with the argument that evangelism of some sort is highly important.
The trouble is that unless someone steps up from “our” side and challenges Wayne in the evangelism department, we lose by default.
It doesn’t have to be you. For example, Ernie Hancock is good in the “bombastic, talk radio” department (say…maybe he’d run for president, too?)
But, you do have some natural advantages. For example, just being a Marine Corps veteran gives you an answer to many talk show right wingers who would accuse you, directly or indirectly, of being a coward or traitor for being a peacenik. Years spent as a manual laborer give you a similar retort to class warfare arguments from the bottom-left – and as you know, that’s the level many talk show conversations are at.
So, we either get you or Ernie or someone else to step up, or Wayne is almost certain to be the LP’s national chair and presidential candidate f
Paulie | 06.16.09 – 9:05 am | #
Gravatar …
So, we either get you or Ernie or someone else to step up, or Wayne is almost certain to be the LP’s national chair and presidential candidate for the foreseeable future.
And, yes, there’s lots of time left. But since Wayne is already stepping up, it may not be as much time as it seems.
Paulie | 06.16.09 – 9:06 am | #
Gravatar In the “not so much time left” department, in the comments at http://c4ss.org/content/466 Less Antman writes, in part If we have the same leadership in 2010, the party is over. For the purpose of his argument, I would say Wayne Root as chair would be the “same” leadership, as “different” as that would be.
Paulie | 06.16.09 – 9:15 am | #
Gravatar As far as getting booked on national TV talk, you may well know the connection that Darcy used to get Brian Moore and Charles Jay on shows, and if you don’t, Darcy can put you in touch.
If you do reasonably well on those shows, a Root-level radio gig should not be too hard to get; then, we have a contest.
Otherwise, it’s…Wayne, uncontested.
Paulie | 06.16.09 – 9:22 am | #
Gravatar Apologies for the filibuster.
On another topic.
Root’s theme song is….”WAR, what’s it good for, absolutely nothing…”
Pure comedic gold!
Paulie | 06.16.09 – 9:47 am | #
Gravatar Paulie,
Yeah, I thought the bumper music was kind of funny myself.
For me, the funniest part is probably the opening credits, when it’s announced that “he’s been called a combination of Barry Goldwater, Ronald Reagan and Ron Paul … on STEROIDS!” Ever since hearing that, I’ve been trying to figure out why anyone thinks that calling someone “a combination of Barry Goldwater, Ronald Reagan and Ron Paul … but with withered testicles and prone to flying off into irrational rages!” is a good thing.
Thomas L. Knapp | Homepage | 06.16.09 – 12:03 pm | #
223 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 5:24 am
Today’s soundtrack, in honor of Gary, is Suicidal Tendencies
224 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 5:33 am
A> LNC drama
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=lnc
History
Lincoln traces its origin to June 12, 1905, in Fort Wayne, Indiana, as the Lincoln National Life Insurance Company. Perry Randall, a Fort Wayne attorney and entrepreneur, suggested the name “Lincoln,” arguing that the name of Abraham Lincoln would powerfully convey a spirit of integrity. In August, 1905 Robert Todd Lincoln provided a photograph of his father for company stationery and advertising.
In 1928, LNC president Arthur Hall hired Dr. Louis A. Warren, a Lincoln scholar, and in 1929, LNC acquired one of the largest collections of books about Abraham Lincoln in the United States. The Lincoln Museum in Fort Wayne was the second largest Lincoln museum in the country. The Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library and Museum in Springfield, Illinois is now the world’s largest museum dedicated to the life and times of Abraham Lincoln, after the closing of the Fort Wayne Lincoln Museum June 30, 2008.
Ian Rolland started with Lincoln in 1956, and became president of Lincoln National Life in 1977. When he retired in 1998, new president Jon A. Boscia moved LNC to Philadelphia and started using the Lincoln Financial Group name for marketing. Lincoln National Life, the largest subsidiary, and the Lincoln Museum remained in Fort Wayne.
Many of the jewels of Lincoln National Corporation have been shed in recent years. Lincoln Reinsurance was the first US reinsurance company; it was sold to Swiss Re in 2001. K&K Insurance Specialties was the first to insure events like NASCAR races; it was sold to AON in 1993. Safeco bought American States, a property/casualty insurance business because Lincoln was primarily in life/health. However, LNC even sold a block of disability income business to MetLife in 1999, as it narrowed its focus.
[edit] Jefferson-Pilot Acquisition
Following the acquisition of Jefferson-Pilot Corporation in March 2006, Lincoln Financial acquired group life, disability, and dental insurance divisions. Jefferson-Pilot Corporation was a Fortune 500 company based in Greensboro, North Carolina founded in 1968 from the merger of Jefferson Standard Insurance (founded 1907) and Pilot Life Insurance (founded 1903). The two companies’ association actually dated to 1945, when Jefferson Standard bought majority control of Pilot Life.
Lincoln Financial also acquired Jefferson-Pilot’s television and radio operations, which were renamed Lincoln Financial Media. The group owns 18 radio stations in Miami, Florida, San Diego, California, Denver, Colorado, and Atlanta, Georgia. It also owned WBTV, the CBS affiliate in Charlotte; WCSC-TV, the CBS affiliate in Charleston, South Carolina and WWBT, the NBC affiliate in Richmond, Virginia. In June 2007, the company publicly announced it would explore a sale of this division, and hired Merrill Lynch to assess its strategic options. It was announced on November 12 that Raycom Media purchased the three TV stations [2], including its’ sports production division, which was the co-holder to football and basketball games in the Atlantic Coast Conference with Raycom and sole rightsholders to the Southeastern Conference until 2009, when ESPNPlus and CBS Sports accuired the rights. The Raycom Sports brand was merged with LFS as of January 1, 2008.
Though billed as a merger of equals, the merged company carries the LNC name, operates from the LNC offices, with current LNC stockholders holding 61% of the stock, and current LNC directors controlling the new board. The insurance division is based in Greensboro, North Carolina
Lincoln Financial Group is the grand sponsor of the National Forensic League and its National Speech and Debate Tournament.
Lincoln purchased Newton County Loan and Savings in order to restructure as a bank holding company and qualify for TARP funding.
[edit] Insurance patent
Lincoln National is the owner of U.S. Patent 7,089,201, “Method and apparatus for providing retirement income benefits”. This patent covers methods for administering variable annuities. Lincoln’s commercial products that are covered by this patent include their i4LIFE Advantage and 4LaterSM Advantage annuities.[1]
In September 2006, Lincoln filed a patent infringement lawsuit against Transamerica Life Insurance Company for allegedly infringing the patent. [2] A similar lawsuit was filed against Jackson National Life in October 2007.[3]
On Feb. 19, 2009, a jury found the Lincoln patent valid and infringed by Transamerica et al. Damages were assessed at the “reasonable royalty rate” and Transamerica et al. were ordered to pay Lincoln $13 million, or 0.11% of the over $12 billion in assets they had under management by virtue of infringing the patent.[4]
225 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 5:36 am
LNC
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
LNC is a three letter acronym that may stand for:
* Chief legalman (US Navy)
* Lebanese National Congress
* Legal nurse consultant
* Lengbati (Papua New Guinea airport)
* Les Nouvelles Calédoniennes (New Caledonia, lnc.nc)
* Leszynski naming convention
* Liberian National Conference
* Libertarian National Committee
* Libertarian National Convention
* Lincoln National Corporation (lnc.com)
* Low noise converter
* Local News on Cable Virginia
* Late Night Crew
* Law of Non-Contradiction
226 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 5:42 am
gary 201: Stateless societies stand up BETTER to States, than States do against States, and even Harry Browne noted the fact that a privately armed citizenry is a more powerful deterrant and formidable foe than conquering a single State apparatus.
bc: Pre-1945, perhaps.
p] No, see my post-1945 examples (Afghanistan, Vietnam) – and there are many others. The European nations lost their colonies in Africa and Asia, post-1945, largely through guerrilla warfare.
227 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 5:55 am
C) Pass the caffeine
P) Coke, mirror, straw, vodka, grapefruit juice
228 Gary // Jun 18, 2009 at 5:58 am
RC, 221;
No, it’s more than just opinion; I’m looking at the evidence. Even the most powerful military on earth seems to lose every time it faces an insurgent citizenry.
229 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 5:58 am
I heard that the LNC has finally united, including former members such as Lee Rights and Angela Keaton, in order to fight against the Green steering committee to enter a contest in which Wayne Allyn Root is offering some free drugs if they can come up for the best slogan for his 2012 presidential campaign. Does anyone know if that’s true?
Yes, except that the LNC is hopelessly deadlocked, Lee Wrights is a current member, Wayne Root does not use drugs, there is no contest with the Greens, and Obama will call off the 2012 election. But besides that you are correct.
230 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 6:03 am
The absence of Caesar is largely untried, with Somalia not working out too well.
Somalia is better off without a government.
The Somali Way
Authentic Rule of Law
Without the State
by Spencer H. MacCallum
— Full Text Version —
Spencer MacCallum addresses ISIL world conference in Williamsburg, Virginia (Aug 11-15, 2007).
Were there such a category, Somalia would hold a place in the Guinness Book of Records as the country with the longest absence of a functioning central government. When the Somalis dismantled their government in 1991 and returned to their pre-colonial political status, the expectation was that chaos would result – and that, of course, would be the politically correct thing to expect. Imagine if it were otherwise. Imagine any part of the globe not being dominated by a central government and the people living there surviving, even prospering. If such were to happen and the idea spread to other parts of Africa or other parts of the world, the mystique of the necessity of the state might be irreparably damaged, and many politicians and bureaucrats might find themselves walking about looking for work.
If the expectation was that Somalia would plunge into an abyss of chaos, what is the reality? A number of recent studies address this question, among them one by economist Peter Leeson drawing on statistical data from the United Nations Development Project, World Bank, CIA, and World Health Organization. Comparing the last five years under the central government, 1985-1990, with the most recent five years of anarchy, 2000-2005, Leeson finds these welfare changes:
* Life expectancy increased from 46 to 48.5 years. This is a poor expectancy as compared with developed countries. But in any measurement of welfare, what is important to observe is not where a population stands at a given point in time, but what is the trend. Is the trend positive, or is it the reverse?
* Number of one-year-olds fully immunized against measles rose from 30 to 40 percent.
* Number of physicians per 100,000 population rose from 3.4 to 4.
* Number of infants with low birth weight fell from 16 per thousand to 0.3 – almost none.
* Infant mortality per 1,000 births fell from 152 to 114.9.
* Maternal mortality per 100,000 births fell from 1,600 to 1,100.
* Percent of population with access to sanitation rose from 18 to 26.
* Percent of population with access to at least one health facility rose from 28 to 54.8.
* Percent of population in extreme poverty (i.e. less than $1 per day) fell from 60 to 43.2.
* Radios per thousand population rose from 4 to 98.5.
* Telephones per thousand population rose from 1.9 to 14.9.
* TVs per 1,000 population rose from 1.2 to 3.7.
* Fatalities due to measles fell from 8,000 to 5,600.
Another even more comprehensive study published last year by Benjamin Powell of the Independent Institute, concludes: “We find that Somalia’s living standards have improved generally . . . not just in absolute terms, but also relative to other African countries since the collapse of the Somali central government.”
Somalia’s pastoral economy is now stronger than that of either neighboring Kenya or Ethiopia. It is the largest exporter of livestock of any East African country. Telecommunications have burgeoned in Somalia; a call from a mobile phone is cheaper in Somalia than anywhere else in Africa. A small number of international investors are finding that the level of security of property and contract in Somalia warrants doing business there. Among these companies are Dole. BBC, the courier DHL, British Airways, General Motors, and Coca Cola, which recently opened a large bottling plant in Mogadishu. A 5-star Ambassador Hotel is operating in Hargeisa, and three new universities are fully functional: Amoud University (1997) in Borama , and Mogadishu University (1997) and University of Benadir (2002) in Mogadishu.
The Call to “Establish Democracy”
All of this is terribly politically incorrect for the reason I suggested. Consequently, the United Nations has by now spent well over two billion dollars attempting to re-establish a central government in Somalia. But here is the irony: It is the presence of the United Nations that has caused virtually all of the turbulence we have seen in Somalia. Let me explain why this is the case.
Like most of pre-colonial Africa, Somalia is traditionally a stateless society. When the colonial powers withdrew, in order to better serve their purposes, they hastily trained local people and set up European-style governments in their place. These were supposed to be democratic. But they soon devolved into brutal dictatorships.
Democracy is unworkable in Africa for several reasons. The first thing that voting does is to divide a population into two groups – a group that rules and a group that is ruled. This is completely at variance with Somali tradition. Second, if democracy is to work, it depends in theory, at least, upon a populace that will vote on issues. But in a kinship society such as Somalia, voting takes place not on the merit of issues but along group lines; one votes according to one’s clan affiliation. Since the ethic of kinship requires loyalty is to one’s fellow clansmen, the winners use the power of government to benefit their own members, which means exploitation of the members of other clans. Consequently when there exists a governmental apparatus with its awesome powers of taxation and police and judicial monopoly, the interests of the clans conflict. Some clan will control that apparatus, and out of self-defense to avoid being exploited by other clans, each must attempt to be that controlling clan.
The turmoil in Somalia consists in the clans maneuvering to position themselves to control the government whenever it might come into being, and this has been exacerbated by the governments of the world, especially the United States, keeping alive the expectation that a government will soon be established and supplying arms to whomever in the moment seems most likely to be able to “bring democracy” to Somalia. The “warlord” phenomenon refers to clan and independent militias, often including left-overs of the former central government, who promise to establish a government under the control of their own clan. They often operate outside the control of the traditional elders and sometimes in opposition to them.
Hence the most violent years in Somalia were the years following 1991 when the United Nations was physically present, attempting to impose a central government. When the United Nations withdrew in 1995, the expectation of a future central government began to recede, and things began to stabilize. But the United Nations continued it efforts to re-establish a government through a series of some sixteen failed “peace conferences.” In 2000 it set up a straw government, the Transitional National Government (TNG). However, not only did the northern Somali clans not recognize the TNG, it was unable to control its intended capital city of Mogadishu. Today a combined “peace-keeping mission” of United States-backed troops from Ethiopia, Somalia’s traditional enemy, and Uganda under the aegis of the African Union are in Mogadishu attempting to prop up the TNG and secure its control over the rest of Somalia. Violence soars.
The Eris Apple
The situation is curiously like an event in Greek mythology. The gods on Mt. Olympus were enjoying a festive party, to which, understandably, they had not invited Eris, the goddess of discord. Eris, just as understandably, took the matter personally. She had the blacksmith Hephaestus fashion a golden apple bearing the words, “To the fairest.” Then she opened the door a crack and rolled the golden apple into the festive hall. In no time at all, the gods were fighting over who should have the apple. The golden apple in Somalia is the expectation that there will soon be a central government. As long as there is that expectation, the clans must fight over who will control it.
Somalia and the Rule of Law
Now, I’ve gone this far without telling you much about Somalia. It’s the Horn of Africa, that part of northeast Africa that juts out into the Indian Ocean just below the Arabian Peninsula. The Somali culture area includes all of the Horn and is home to some 11.5 million people. The Colonial powers arbitrarily fragmented this culture area so that today parts of it fall under the jurisdiction of Kenya in the south, Ethiopia in the west, and some in Djibouti in the north. The remainder along the coast is now without a working government. What these people have in common, even more than similar language, lifestyle, and physical character, is a body of customary law, the Xeer, which differs from clan to clan in non-essential ways such as founding myths but is remarkably uniform with respect to its provision for the protection of persons and property. The Xeer provides a rule of law-customary law, that is: permitting safe travel, trade, marriage, and so forth throughout the region. The Xeer is most intact in the north of Somalia, which was under British rule. In the south, the Italians tried to eradicate it. Nonetheless, it survives to a significant degree everywhere, even in the urban areas, and is virtually unaffected in rural Somalia.
The Xeer is the secret to the whole perplexing question of Somalia’s success without a central government, since it provides an authentic rule of law to support trade and economic development. Fortunately, we know something about the Xeer because of Michael van Notten, a Dutch lawyer (and ISIL Advisory Boare member) who in the early 1990s married into the Samaron Clan in the northwest of Somalia, the fifth largest of the Somali clans, and lived with them for the last twelve years of his life. He took full advantage of that opportunity to research the Xeer. The result was his pioneering study, The Law of the Somalis (Red Sea Press, 2005). Van Notten died when his manuscript was half finished. Fortunately, he had largely completed assembling the ethnographic material. In his will, he asked that I edit and complete the manuscript for publication. The task ahead is to see the work translated into Somali.
Highlights of the Xeer
There is time in this short talk to give you only some of the highlights of the Xeer. First, law and, consequently crime, are defined in terms of property rights. The law is compensatory rather than punitive. Because property right requires compensation, rather than punishment, there is no imprisonment, and fines are rare. Such fines as might be imposed seldom exceed the amount of compensation and are not payable to any court or government, but directly to the victim. A fine might be in order when, for example, the killing of a camel was deliberate and premeditated, in which case the victim receives not one but two camels. Fines figure in another interesting way. It is expected that a prominent public figure such as a religious or political dignitary or a policeman or a judge should lead an exemplary life. If he violates the law, he pays double what would be required of an ordinary person. Also, it should be noted, since the law and crime are defined in terms of property rights, the Xeer is unequivocal in its opposition to any form of taxation.
Secondly, in order to assure that compensation will be forthcoming even in cases where the perpetrator is a child, or penniless, or crazy, or has fled abroad, the Xeer requires that every person be fully insured against any liability he might incur under the law. If an individual cannot make the required payment, a designated group of his kin are responsible. Van Notten describes in an interesting way how this happens:
A person who violates someone’s rights and is unable to pay the compensation himself notifies his family, who then pays on his behalf. From an emotional point of view, this notification is a painful procedure, since no family member will miss the opportunity to tell the wrongdoer how vicious or stupid he was. Also, they will ask assurances that he will be more careful in the future. Indeed, all those who must pay for the wrongdoings of a family member will thereafter keep an eye on him and try to intervene before he incurs another liability. They will no longer, for example, allow him to keep or bear a weapon. While on other continents the re-education of criminals is typically a task of the government, in Somalia it is the responsibility of the family.
If the family tires of bailing out a repeat offender, they can disown him, in which case he becomes and outlaw. Not being insured, he forfeits all protection under the law and, for his safety, must leave the country. Customary law is similar in this and many other respects throughout the world. An instance is told in the founding legend of my own Clan MacCallum in Scotland. The founder of the Clan supposedly was exiled 1500 years ago from Ireland because he was a hothead whom his family disowned for embroiling them in fights. In the loneliness of his exile on the North Sea, he became a man of peace. He couldn’t return to Ireland, as he was no longer under protection of the law and could have been killed with impunity. So he went instead to Scotland and there founded our clan.
A third point about the Xeer is that there is no monopoly of police or judicial services. Anyone is free to serve in those capacities who is not at the same time a religious or political dignitary, since that would compromise the sharp separation of law, politics, and religion. Also, anyone performing in such a role is subject to the same laws as anyone else and more so; if they violate the law, they must pay heavier damages or fines than would apply to anyone else. Public figures are expected to show exemplary conduct.
Fourthly, there are no victimless crimes. Only a victim or his family can initiate a court action. Where there is no victim to call a court into being, no court can form. No court can investigate on its own initiative any evidence of an alleged misconduct.
Lastly, the court procedure is interesting. From birth, every Somali has his own judge who will sit on the court that will judge him should he transgress the law. That judge is his oday, the head of his extended family consisting of all males descended from the same great grandfather, together with their spouses and children. Several extended families make up a jilib, which is the group responsible for paying the blood price in the event a member kills someone of another jilib or clan. The oday, or judge, is chosen carefully following weeks or months or deliberation by elders of the clan. He has no authority over the family but is chosen solely for his knowledge of human affairs and his wisdom, and he can lose his position if his decisions are not highly regarded in the community. When an offense is committed, the offender goes first to his oday, who then forms a court with the oday of the plaintiff. If the odays cannot resolve the matter, they form another court made up of odays representing additional families, jilibs, or clans. A virtue of each person knowing from birth who will be one of his judges, and vice versa, is that an oday knows each person in his extended family intimately and can observe and counsel him before what might seem a small problem escalates into a crime.
Once a court forms and accepts jurisdiction over a case, its first action is to appoint a recorder, who will repeat loudly during the hearing each important point made by the speakers. It then announces when and where it will hear the case. When the court session opens, the court invites the plaintiff to state his case. The plaintiff has the right to appoint a representative to make the presentation on his behalf. During the presentation, the plaintiff has opportunity to confer with his family to make sure that he has not forgotten anything. When the plaintiff has finished, the court asks him to summarize his case and state his demands. Lastly, the court asks the defendant to present his defense and any counter claims.
Then the court adjourns to deliberate whether any witnesses should be heard. A disputed fact is admitted as evidence only when three witnesses have testified to its truth. The parties can also call in experts and character witnesses. If the victim has died or has been wounded, the court will instruct a religious dignitary to assess how the victim died or was wounded. These dignitaries assess injuries usually by applying the standards enumerated in the commentary of the twelfth-century Muslim scholar al-Nawawii’s Minhaaj at-Talibiin. When the plaintiff has elaborated his case with witnesses and evidence, the defendant is given a chance to refute the plaintiff’s charges, arguments, and evidence. It is not customary to cross-examine witnesses.
Finally, the court adjourns again to evaluate the evidence. If less than three witnesses support a fact, or if the witnesses contradict each other, the court will proceed to oath taking. There are several types of oaths. The simplest starts by the oath giver saying, “I swear by my virility.” Alternatively, he can say, “I swear by Allah.” A stronger oath is the so-called triple oath, in which he swears the same oath three times. A stronger oath yet is the one that is repeated 50 times. Also, there is the so-called divorce oath, in which the oath giver swears by his marriage(s). If it is later found out that he lied, his marriage(s) become null and void.
It should be noted that even when the plaintiff fails to convince the court of his case, the court will usually not rule in favor of the defendant until the latter has taken an oath of innocence.
In a longer talk, I could discuss the role of police and enforcement of judgments, but this much should give some flavor of the legal system practiced by the Somalis. It provides an effective rule of law entirely without the backing of a government.
The Xeer takes it place among such great legal systems of the world as the Roman law, the English common law, the Law Merchant, and the Jewish traditional law (Halacha). It must be extremely old and is believed to have developed in the Horn of Africa. There is no evidence that it developed elsewhere or was greatly influenced by any foreign legal system. The fact that Somali legal terminology is practically devoid of loan words from foreign languages suggests that the Xeer is truly indigenous.
Michael van Notten’s book describing this system of law deserves to be better known and widely read. It is the first study of any customary law to treat it not as a curiosity of the past, but as potentially instructive for a future free society. Whether or not the intervention of foreign governments, which has intensified with the refusal of Somalis to die or remain poor, will frustrate this potential, only time can tell. I would like to end with a plea to help get this book into wider circulation. If you are connected with any schools or colleges, please contact them. Many of them will find it highly appropriate. A review by a distinguished legal anthropologist on Amazon.com ends on this note:
The readability and relative brevity of the text highly recommend The Law of the Somalis for classroom use. It fits comfortably alongside, and is a refreshing addition to, the scholarly tradition reflected in such classic ethnographic legal-political titles as, Tswana Law (I. Schapera), The Cheyenne Way (K. Llewellyn and E.A. Hoebel), and The Judicial Process among the Barotse (M. Gluckman).
Howard J. De Nike, J.D., Ph.D.
Department of Anthropology
University of New Mexico.
Bibliography
De Nike, Howard J. 2006. “Customary Law Upholds Natural Law.” — Amazon.com Customer-Reviews
Leeson, Peter T. 2005. “Better Off Stateless: Somalia Before and After Government Collapse.” West Virginia University. http://www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf
Powell, Benjamin, Ryan Ford, and Alex Nowrasteh. 2006. “Somalia after State Collapse: Chaos or Improvement?” Independent Institute Working Paper No. 64. http://www.independent.org/pdf/working_papers/64_somalia.pdf
Van Notten, Michael. 2005. The Law of the Somalis: A Stable Foundation for Economic and Social Development in the Horn of Africa. Trenton NJ: Red Sea Press. home.arcor.de/danneskjoeld/X/Som/index.html
Obituary for Michael van Notten http://www.isil.org/resources/fnn/2002nov/van-notten-obit.html
231 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 6:05 am
By the way, a challenge to Kimberly Wilder: Read Dred Scott’s revenge, the new book by Napolitano. I am reading it now, and we should discuss the subject matter after we’re both finished reading it.
I’m currently reading Barry and the Boys
http://www.amazon.com/Barry-Boys-Americas-Secret-History/dp/0970659105
232 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 6:07 am
BC
you’re saying his extremism galvanized a moment but that that movement shared few of his values.
No, that’s not what I said. The movement shared/shares most of his values.
233 mdh // Jun 18, 2009 at 8:16 am
Dimmu Borgir – The Serpentine Offering
“My descent is the story of every man, I am hatred, darkness, and despair.”
234 mdh // Jun 18, 2009 at 8:25 am
Dimmu Borgir – Unorthodox Manifesto
“Limitations do not exist
When you are ahead of the crowd
With the art of confidence
I reign at the throne of my soul
The value of this darkness unwinds
Travelling the other path
A hidden triumph
But obvious to the strong and wise
By understanding this reality
I remain in a twice-coloured cloud
With feet connected solid in the ground
And thus I get peace of mind”
235 mdh // Jun 18, 2009 at 9:31 am
Courtesy of NORML:
In fact, here’s what Donald Tashkin of the UCLA David Geffen School of Medicine, Division of Pulmonary and Critical Care Medicine, had to say about the subject earlier this month in an interview with the McClatchy newspaper chain. (**Note: Dr. Tashkin has performed US-government sponsored studies of marijuana and lung function for over 30 years and is considered to be the United States’ — if not the world’s — foremost expert on the subject.)
“What we found instead was no association (between marijuana smoking and cancer) and even a suggestion of some protective (anti-cancer) effect. … Early on, when our research appeared as if there would be a negative impact on lung health, I was opposed to legalization because I thought it would lead to increased use and that would lead to increased health effects. But at this point, I’d be in favor of legalization (of marijuana). I wouldn’t encourage anybody to smoke any substances. But I don’t think it should be stigmatized as an illegal substance. Tobacco smoking causes far more harm. And in terms of an intoxicant, alcohol causes far more harm.”
236 libertariangirl // Jun 18, 2009 at 10:50 am
hey, good morning guys , is anyone coming to Freedom Fest?
237 robert capozzi // Jun 18, 2009 at 11:28 am
gary 228, yer changing the subject,dude. First off, small states are still states. Large nations have invaded small ones and won…Iraq being the latest ex.
Perhaps Somalia can prove that a Stateless area can create a sustainable anarchy, esp in this technological warfare environment.
Spare us the false analogies.
238 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Large nations have invaded small ones and won…Iraq being the latest ex.
If the US “won” in Iraq, why are US troops still there?
Perhaps Somalia can prove that a Stateless area can create a sustainable anarchy, esp in this technological warfare environment.
I’m not sure what you consider sustainable, but there’s been no effective central government there for over 15 (but less than 20) years. During that time, they have fought off at least two foreign invasions, improved average living conditions relative to what they were back when they had a territorial monopoly government, and surpassed many of the nation-states of subsaharan Africa.
239 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 1:27 pm
hey, good morning guys , is anyone coming to Freedom Fest?
Good afternoon. Most likely won’t be able to go (if I’m still on this side of the country), but there’s a slight chance I might be out that way.
240 robert capozzi // Jun 18, 2009 at 1:49 pm
pc, US troops defeated the standing Iraq military. Since then, the US forces have been nation building. As you know, I don’t support either effort.
Perhaps the Somali experiment will “prove” anarchy works in some territories. But even if it’s still anarcho in 50 years, it doesn’t necessarily follow that no government could work in affluent territories. It seems obvious that increased wealth increases the chances for invasion.
241 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 1:58 pm
US troops defeated the standing Iraq military.
Of course they did.
But that’s besides the point under discussion, which was the effectiveness of stateless defense against state-run or state-backed forces.
It seems obvious that increased wealth increases the chances for invasion.
However, it doesn’t increase the prospects of such an invasion (see my previous point about Japan and the US above).
Also, increased wealth also increases the prospects for peaceful trade, which is the other major deterrent against invasion. With no statist regulations against trade and commerce, the portion of North America formerly occupied by the US government could become far too valuable as a place to trade, invest, and bank to ruin by invasion; and, if it doesn’t, Americans still have too many privately owned weapons to make such an invasion profitable.
242 Protestant Stalinist // Jun 18, 2009 at 4:46 pm
About 1/3 of the way there until we get passed the legendary Keaton thread of 735 messages. Better hurry, because several stories got posted today so this thread will jump off the first page. To get back to the original subject, I’m trying to work out a deal under which Ross Perot will endorse the Protestant Stalinist cause and specifically announce the comdenmnation of all Catholic Trotskyists to everlasting hellfire, though Perot’s agents have told me that he is currently endorsing Catholic Trotskyism.
243 Catholic Trotskyist // Jun 18, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Another Gary, thanks for your interest. I started posting on IPR last September, and was on its defunked predecessor ThirdPartyWatch for almost a year before that. I switched to IPR as TPW declined and after Naderite agents temporarily silenced me for over a month as they put spyware on my computer. Other than that, I am sometiems gone because of obligations in my real life, which I tell the people here I’m going on missions for the Vatican. Along with Robert Milnes and Don Lake, I form what I call the Three Musketeers of Delicious Insanity. However, I am serious about most of my ideas.
Protestant Stalinist, go back to the gulag.
244 Steven R Linnabary // Jun 18, 2009 at 7:52 pm
Mary-Anne Watkins // Jun 16, 2009 at 4:12 pm
You people are sick. Is this how libertarians treat eachother? If so, I am glad to be in the constitution party where we have real Christian values instead of perverts and usurious liars and thieves!
1 Timothy 2:12:
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
PEACE
245 libertariangirl // Jun 18, 2009 at 7:59 pm
ROFLMAO … good one
246 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Hush girl, shut you lips, do the Helen Keller and talk with your hips
247 Catholic Trotskyist // Jun 18, 2009 at 8:01 pm
What we need now is for GE to come back and call everyone a parasitical socialist again.
248 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 8:01 pm
By the way that is an actual song I heard on the radio
249 Gary // Jun 18, 2009 at 9:55 pm
Robert, 237:
It’s actually on-topic. From my understanding of things, Hitler shied away from invading Switzerland not because they had a formidable State apparatus that couldn’t be conquered, but because of the nature of its having so much armed-individualism, an anti-Statist feature, or streak, in the population. And that’s what I’m doing – comparing features (is the defense more anti-Statist, or is the defense leaning more toward being concentrated in an omnipotent State?).
Regardless of the fact that Switzerland had a State, my comparison holds if that State is militarily impotent relative to its decentralized alternative, that of having individuals all over the region competently armed to repel an invasion.
If you compare all the countries Hitler invaded vs the one that he didn’t invade, you’ll be able to extract that it’s not so much that Switzerland had a State, but that, defense-wise, it more closely resembled an anarchistic model of defense than it did a centralized State model of defense.
Using reason, then, if States (in terms of those which have a centralized military apparatus) are so formidable a foe, then why didn’t Hitler have trouble invading – and conquering – Poland and Denmark, to name a couple?
The fact remains that if Switzerland had had a conventional State-run military, he would have easily invaded and conquered it. What Switzerland did have was little or no State involvement in defense. That should tell you something. How you get out of that that States are less easily conquerable militarily is beyond me, and, I think, beyond reason & common sense.
Costa Rica also has no State-run military, and through many attempted invasions, the citizens were able to repel effectively, while its neighbor to the north, Nicaragua, has been invaded and conquered, precisely because, once you defeat the monopoly military apparatus of the State, you’re in. Not so with Switzerland or Costa Rica.
250 Gary // Jun 18, 2009 at 10:01 pm
In other words, the more you get away from concentrating defense in the hands of a State, the better your chances of repelling an invasion become: that was my main point.
And the fact that there exists a State doing other functions is irrelevant, for the sake of this discussion (re defense & military).
251 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 10:02 pm
Who all has attempted to invade Costa Rica, and when?
252 Gary // Jun 18, 2009 at 10:07 pm
Robert, 240: “US troops defeated the standing Iraq military”
Hey, thanks for helping to prove my point against yours, Robert! I appreciate it.
253 Gary // Jun 18, 2009 at 10:10 pm
“Who all has attempted to invade Costa Rica, and when?”
For one: http://jrscience.wcp.muohio.edu/FieldCourses00/PapersCostaRicaArticles/CostaRicain1856.Defeating.html
(part of “manifest destiny”)
254 Gary // Jun 18, 2009 at 10:16 pm
Also, in 1955
255 paulie // Jun 18, 2009 at 10:20 pm
@ 253 Thanks!
@254 ……OK, I’ll check wikipedia.
256 Gary // Jun 18, 2009 at 10:25 pm
There was also a successfully repelled invasion in 1918, but there were extenuating circumstances that translate into I can’t use it as an example to bolster my argument. (Although note that I never said that State-run troops CANNOT repel an invasion).
257 Mik Robertson // Jun 18, 2009 at 11:15 pm
@249 “And that’s what I’m doing – comparing features (is the defense more anti-Statist, or is the defense leaning more toward being concentrated in an omnipotent State?).”
In the case of Switzerland, I believe their neutral diplomatic position also played a role on the decisions of Hitler to invade or not. The citizenry was more than an armed bunch of individuals with hand-held firearms. They were a well regulated militia with state-provided weapons capable of repelling invasion. I believe some of the anti-aircraft guns are still housed in a few barns.
Not only that, the terrain of Switzerland itself deters invasion. It is not like the plains of Poland, which is a great place to have a war. To claim Switzerland’s defense strategy as an example of anarchistic features is a stretch.
258 paulie // Jun 19, 2009 at 1:23 am
In the case of Switzerland, I believe their neutral diplomatic position also played a role on the decisions of Hitler to invade or not.
Certainly. A state-free zone would likewise be neutral, would it not?
The citizenry was more than an armed bunch of individuals with hand-held firearms. They were a well regulated militia with state-provided weapons capable of repelling invasion. I believe some of the anti-aircraft guns are still housed in a few barns.
Which parts of that could not be done by anarchists?
Not only that, the terrain of Switzerland itself deters invasion.
No more than the terrain of Austria, and Switzerland suffered numerous wars and invasions prior to adopting the present system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland#Early_history
259 mdh // Jun 19, 2009 at 8:19 am
I’m eating ice cream for breakfast and smoking cigarettes.
260 mdh // Jun 19, 2009 at 8:21 am
Time to get to work building an online contribution tracking system in Perl so that people can generate their own reports rather than complaining at me to do it… Ugh. I wish people had a greater level of appreciation for the fact that many of us are volunteers with real money-paying jobs and can’t devote 100% of every day to fulfilling their desires.
261 paulie // Jun 19, 2009 at 10:28 am
Huh? Was that aimed at me?
262 paulie // Jun 19, 2009 at 10:29 am
People, you will have to work a lot harder if you want to beat 735 comments.
263 mdh // Jun 19, 2009 at 10:32 am
Nah. You haven’t been kvetching about reports. Hahah.
264 Thomas L. Knapp // Jun 19, 2009 at 10:49 am
Quoth Mik:
“To claim Switzerland’s defense strategy as an example of anarchistic features is a stretch.”
I agree.
Hitler could have taken Switzerland, and probably in relatively short order. He had no particular incentive to do so at the start of his project of conquest, and in fact had some very good reasons not to:
- Since Switzerland had been neutral on principle for hundreds of years, he had no reason to fear that it would become a base for offensive operations against him. He could take it at his convenience; there were other enemies whom he judged more in need of immediate attention.
- Switzerland served as a banking/commerce node through which his regime could get around Allied sanctions to do business.
- With respect to German/Austrian dissidents and Allied pilots and aircraft crews, Switzerland served as a giant POW camp that Hitler didn’t have to fund, guard or maintain.
Furthermore, Switzerland’s policy of 100% conscription is hardly “anarchistic.”
265 libertariangirl // Jun 19, 2009 at 10:56 am
i told you 735 comments will never happen,
good morning LP and GP peeps. CP folks shouldnt you be at church or out judging somebody?lol
266 paulie // Jun 19, 2009 at 11:13 am
That Helen Keller song…
267 Gary // Jun 19, 2009 at 11:24 am
Harry Browne: “while Switzerland is not unconquerable, the cost of conquest would be intolerable to the conqueror…Hitler called Switzerland the “little porcupine” because so many of its citizens owned military grade weapons. He did not invade Switzerland because he knew that he would be bogged down forever as each citizen instantly became a member of the army…In World War II, Hitler wanted the Swiss gold reserves and needed free communications and transit through Switzerland to supply Axis forces in the Mediterranean. But when military planners looked at Switzerland’s well-armed citizenry, mountainous terrain, and civil defence fortifications, Switzerland lost its appeal as an invasion target. While two World Wars raged, Switzerland enjoyed a secure peace. ”
And
“…At home, the “Swiss Confederation” developed only a weak central government, leaving most authority in the hands of the cantons or lower levels of government. ”
While Switzerland may be a nation-state, its power is relatively weak and concentrated at the “state” or local level. That’s one step in the right, i.e., correct, or anarchist, direction. Keep going, and weak power at the “state” level with it concentrated at the local level is another step. Keep going and local level power shifting to the individual and pretty soon, you’ve got the ideal.
268 mdh // Jun 19, 2009 at 11:32 am
Deb,
With the advent of the internet, you can judge people from the comfort and privacy of your own home while watching child pornography.
OK, that was harsh. Let’s not ascribe pedophilia to judgmental Christians. Bestiality pornography.
269 paulie // Jun 19, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Matt @268
See http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2008/06/kinkiest-towns-in-america-they-love.html
270 mdh // Jun 19, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Good article, Paulie. Who’s up for a road trip to Louisville and Elmhurst?
271 paulie // Jun 19, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Only if Deb comes with me
272 paulie // Jun 19, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Or makes me come
273 Catholic Trotskyist // Jun 19, 2009 at 3:33 pm
The CP people haven’t even been on this thread for a while, but as the person closest tothem politically, remember that it is not required to go to church/mass every day.
Mary Watkins, please come back, it’s the only way for this to keep going, probably. We probably won’t get to 735 now, or even past 300, but this is now one of the Top 10 threads, I think.
Praise Jesus, Praise Trotsky, Praise Obama, amen.
274 BushMan // Jun 19, 2009 at 3:37 pm
I love bush, too.
I always say that any woman that shaves her stuff is either seeking a man into pedophilia or has lice.
I hate it when I go down on it, and find warts…only to have her tell me “oh no baby, that’s just razor burn. You know my stuff is good”!
275 libertariangirl // Jun 19, 2009 at 5:10 pm
LOL ,
Bman , your gross
276 Third Party Revolution // Jun 19, 2009 at 8:45 pm
Is a comment like that really necessary on an article about Ross Perot?
277 BushMan // Jun 19, 2009 at 11:59 pm
Deb, that ain’t nuthin’!
When I think bush, I want something that reminds me of Don King or ZZ Top!!
278 paulie // Jun 20, 2009 at 4:31 am
Ross Perot has a love-hate relationship with bush. He once said that his daughter’s wedding was almost disrupted by out of control bush, and he had to temporarily pull out (of the presidential race) to prevent his daughter from having a bush-related problem at her wedding.
279 Third Party Revolution // Jun 20, 2009 at 7:51 am
What is Perot’s current political affiliation? I know that he left the Reform Party in 2000.
280 paulie // Jun 20, 2009 at 11:49 am
Republican, I think.
281 Melty // Jun 20, 2009 at 12:05 pm
The speil @230 on Somali justice is fascinating.
282 mdh // Jun 20, 2009 at 1:50 pm
This video is hilarious. http://www.piratesandemperors.com/
283 paulie // Jun 20, 2009 at 11:28 pm
Is a bird in the hand better than a bird in bush?
284 Third Party Revolution // Jun 21, 2009 at 4:27 pm
I guess that we are 284/735, or 38.6% of the way to beating that article about Angela Keaton resigning in number of comments.
285 paulie // Jun 23, 2009 at 9:08 am
Seems extremely unlikely at this point.
286 Third Party Revolution // Jun 23, 2009 at 12:29 pm
I guess. Probably this is not going to be the article to do that. Hopefully IPR finds a story that will be something to talk about.
287 Erik Geib // Jun 23, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Perot’s likely an ‘independent.’ Texas doesn’t have registration by party.
288 Michael Seebeck // Jun 23, 2009 at 1:25 pm
This thread is now officially Two Gross.
289 paulie // Jun 24, 2009 at 8:58 am
290 paulie // Jun 24, 2009 at 12:55 pm
This thread is now officially Two Gross.
Also, probably, dead…
291 Third Party Revolution // Jun 25, 2009 at 6:41 pm
So what does that video have to do with this article?
292 paulie // Jun 25, 2009 at 8:13 pm
It has to do with a previous comment in this thread.
293 Mother Teresa // Jul 1, 2009 at 2:14 am
“Ronald Ernest Paul // Jun 16, 2009 at 7:49 pm
I don’t like Gary Fincher. I think he’s a socialist.”
I think the quote got mangled. It originally read: “Gary Fincher and Ronald Ernest Paul don’t like socialist thinkers (like Paulie).”
Not sure how that got misquoted.
294 paulie // Jul 1, 2009 at 2:20 am
What about my thinking do you think is socialistic, Gary?
FYI: i did not make the bogus Ron Paul post, and I don’t consider you a socialist.
If you think I am, then give some reasons and examples as to why. Otherwise, it’s just childish name calling and ignorance on your part.
295 paulie // Jul 1, 2009 at 2:25 am
BTW i have not checked the IP yet but I am reasonably sure that ‘Mother Theresa” is Gary. I’ll post if that turns out not to be the case.
Ironic that Gary would call himself that, when he is more like one of the lepers of Calcutta.
If anyone is like Mother Theresa, it is Andy. Mother Theresa was an extremely generous and hard working woman, but – if I recall my reading correctly – very controlling, condescending, zealous and self-righteous much of the time.
296 paulie // Jul 1, 2009 at 2:31 am
Yep, it’s gary.
OK, Fincher: why or how am I a socialist?
297 paulie // Jul 1, 2009 at 2:48 am
wikipedia:
Mother Teresa (August 26, 1910 – September 5, 1997), born Agnesë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu (pronounced [a?n?s ??n?d?a b??jad?ju]), was an Albanian[2][3] Roman Catholic nun with Indian citizenship[4] who founded the Missionaries of Charity in Kolkata (Calcutta), India in 1950. For over 45 years she ministered to the poor, sick, orphaned, and dying, while guiding the Missionaries of Charity’s expansion, first throughout India and then in other countries.
By the 1970s she was internationally famed as a humanitarian and advocate for the poor and helpless, due in part to a documentary, and book, Something Beautiful for God by Malcolm Muggeridge. She won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979 and India’s highest civilian honour, the Bharat Ratna, in 1980 for her humanitarian work. Mother Teresa’s Missionaries of Charity continued to expand, and at the time of her death it was operating 610 missions in 123 countries, including hospices and homes for people with HIV/AIDS, leprosy and tuberculosis, soup kitchens, children’s and family counselling programs, orphanages, and schools.
She has been praised by many individuals, governments and organizations; however, she has also faced a diverse range of criticism. These include objections by various individuals and groups, including Christopher Hitchens, Michael Parenti, Aroup Chatterjee, Vishva Hindu Parishad, against the proselytizing focus of her work including a strong stance against abortion, a belief in the spiritual goodness of poverty and alleged baptisms of the dying. Several medical journals also criticised the standard of medical care in her hospices and concerns were raised about the opaque nature in which donated money was spent.[5]
298 paulie // Jul 1, 2009 at 2:54 am
http://www.newstatesman.com/200508220019
The squalid truth behind the legacy of Mother Teresa
Donal MacIntyre
Published 22 August 2005
* 22 comments
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The nun adored by the Vatican ran a network of care homes where cruelty and neglect are routine. Donal MacIntyre gained secret access and witnessed at first hand the suffering of “rescued” orphans
The dormitory held about 30 beds rammed in so close that there was hardly a breath of air between the bare metal frames. Apart from shrines and salutations to “Our Great Mother”, the white walls were bare. The torch swept across the faces of children sleeping, screaming, laughing and sobbing, finally resting on the hunched figure of a boy in a white vest. Distressed, he rocked back and forth, his ankle tethered to his cot like a goat in a farmyard. This was the Daya Dan orphanage for children aged six months to 12 years, one of Mother Teresa’s flagship homes in Kolkata. It was 7.30 in the evening, and outside the monsoon rains fell unremittingly.
Earlier in the day, young international volunteers had giggled as one told how a young boy had peed on her while strapped to a bed. I had already been told of an older disturbed woman tied to a tree at another Missionaries of Charity home. At the orphanage, few of the volunteers batted an eyelid at disabled children being tied up. They were too intoxicated with the myth of Mother Teresa and drunk on their own philanthropy to see that such treatment of children was inhumane and degrading.
(continue reading at URL above)
299 Jessica Irons // Jul 1, 2009 at 3:44 am
I see the loser crew is back.
Gary – the woman beating slob who forged voter registrations in New Mexico
Paul – the convicted felon, rapist, child molester and crackhead who forged signatures in Oregon
Andy – the original inspiration for the character in the 40 year old virgin. He hasn’t been caught forging yet, but since he hangs around with Gary and Paul there is a pretty high probability that he is a forger just like his loser friends. He always acts crazy and has to be removed by police because he petitions at grocery stores without permission and yells at people.
Andy is currently stalking a young woman in Tennessee. He recently had to be fired from the voter registration drive in Arizona for deranged behavior and low quality work.
All three have been fired in North Carolina and then again nationally by Sean Haugh, who is by far the best political director the Libertarian Party has ever had.
Paul is now on the executive committee of the Alabama LP even though he is actually a homeless bum who hitchhikes all over the country and posts lies and slanders here against Sean Haugh, Christina Tobin, Angela Keaton, Richard Winger, Michelle Shinghal, Scott Kohlhaas and ElfNinosMom – all due to petty jealousy against his betters. Incidentally he is also a plagiarist.
Roger Pope and Joe Knight have the straight scoop on these guys. They should be blackballed from petition drives, kicked off this website like they were at Last Free Voice, and ostracized at party meetings.
All petition contracts should go to Free and Equal and competent petitioners like Eric Dondero, David Jackson, Ronn Cook, Edee and Russ Baggett and Darryl Bonner.
The GAP boys are now turning on each other here over money. Don’t trust them, and don’t hire Mark Pickens who is just a front for them.
300 mdh // Jul 1, 2009 at 6:27 am
Eric Dondero? I wouldn’t put Dondero in front of people on my dime, he’d probably tell them to go vote Republican!
Bonner is also not a libertarian from what I’ve heard. I don’t know any of the other guys.
Paulie’s as weird as the average libertarian (which is pretty weird compared to the rest of society), but overall I’ve never seen him do anything genuinely bizarre, violent, or otherwise and I’ve known him for a while. He’s just eccentric.
And apparently he does own more than one shirt.
301 little bit // Jul 1, 2009 at 8:51 am
Paul isn’t wierd, and I am the girl being stalked, I can verify that…..Paul is very good at what he does and I hope no one hesitates to hire him in the future.I am of the belief that Andy actually posted this post himself. eek what do we think of that. Maybe he is developing multiple personalities as a symptom of a nervous breakdown. I just took him, Paul, shopping and he just bought himself 8 shirts I picked out. He looks very handsome! lol and F#CK eedie baggit! That chick ripped me off on a campaign drive in Omaha. She forced all of my petitioners to run thier work through her and had me pay out bonuses, and travel money that she never reimbursed me for. We are talking about probably 1000 dollars . I think the independant petitioners should get the contracts, but we can argue that all day long. However EEDie BAGgit! omg, what a thieving, lying mean person with little values. Who are the other guys, I hear Eric D is like Schrier, and that can’t be good from anyones perspective.
302 little bit // Jul 1, 2009 at 8:52 am
Some girls know how to pick em…lol
303 mdh // Jul 1, 2009 at 9:06 am
No, Paul really is pretty weird. He’s a good guy though.
304 libertariangirl // Jul 1, 2009 at 11:04 am
im confused , not about jessica being a total c#*t , but about who an alias and whos not.
305 libertariangirl // Jul 1, 2009 at 11:08 am
if Haugh is the best E.D we ever had , why did the LP let him go?
was it just a matter of not having enuf money to afford an E.D ? or was it s0mething else?
i really dont know , i only met him once and he was cool to me.
306 little bit // Jul 1, 2009 at 11:31 am
I am at cas703@yahoo.com, any posts posted my anyone else using that email address has stolen it. I did not post that terrible message about paul and gary. PLEASE recognize that Jessica Irons is using my email without my permission! This is libertarian cas703@yahoo.com signing off! I am all about freedom to post anonymously but this is riduiculous. Oh and Andy just showed up at my place again, and harrassed me again. This is getting way out of control, and I am not a cop caller. grrr
307 little bit // Jul 1, 2009 at 11:33 am
Also, Mark Pickins has done excellent work for the LP party and has never been fired ever.
308 libertariangirl // Jul 1, 2009 at 11:37 am
why dont you just pay andy his money , so he’ll leave you alone
309 Andy // Jul 1, 2009 at 2:11 pm
“Andy is currently stalking a young woman in Tennessee. He recently had to be fired from the voter registration drive in Arizona for deranged behavior and low quality work.”
WOW, what a bunch of LIES.
“Flag this messageRe: Andy Jacobs’ great work @ gun showSaturday, March 7, 2009 6:28 PM
From: This sender is DomainKeys verified”Jim March” Add sender to ContactsTo: deuchner@comcast.net, thatpetitionguy@yahoo.comCc: dfn@alum.mit.eduMessage contains attachmentslibertarian registration sheet.pdf (444KB)Andy absolutely kicks ass at this.
I watched him take at least 20+ of these and I can tell you this is a
very high-grade pile – existing voters who are already politically
aware. I would be surprised if the failure rate crosses 20% and I
suspect it will be much less…this is a grade-A primo stack of paper.
Let me make a suggestion here: if it’s OK with him, I’d say pay him
up-front for at least 2/3rds of these, and then when we get the
“success rate feedback” forms from Pima’s Recorder, we then settle up
accounts for any more. Upshot is, he won’t have to wait until the
Recorder finishes for most of the money, BUT he’ll still in the end
only be paid for those that are successful.
I gave him eight sheets worth of the “voter name turn-in sheet” forms
I developed for the Pima recorder’s office, and am also giving him the
.PDF of the form and a dozen more such sheets tomorrow AM. Since I’m
CCing him here I’ll include that as an attachment. (Note that it can
be printed in B&W and still work.)
I’m also doing him a one-page flyer on “Election Observation and the
Pima LP”, I’m drafting it now.
Look, this guy is SO much better at this than me it ain’t even funny.
.
By far the most effective thing I can do is just make sure Adam is
able to operate full-tilt, helping handle logistics, housing,
documents, etc. If he needed me to walk his dang dog I’d do that
This ONE guy just working the gun shows can net us all the
. Or more seriously, the
.
registrations we need both Pima and *statewide*. It’s like watching
Michaelangelo paint the Sistine Chapel
dude could give the “Shamwow” guy on TV a run for his money
Jim”
“your latest batch of regsThursday, April 23, 2009 8:37 AM
From: “deuchner@comcast.net” Add sender to ContactsTo: thatpetitionguy@yahoo.comCc: 1.jim.march@gmail.comThe Recorder’s office notified me yesterday that your latest batch of regs had been completed. 57 out of 61 were good. Of the other four, two did not provide proof of citizenship, one gave a business address & wrong tel #, and one was out of county. Still, 57 out of 61 is remarkable!
How shall I get a check to you for $342.00, are you in town now or shall I mail it? Also, will you be at the gun show the weekend of May 2-3?
Thanks again
Dave”
310 Andy // Jul 1, 2009 at 2:14 pm
“Oh and Andy just showed up at my place again, and harrassed me again. This is getting way out of control, and I am not a cop caller. grrr”
I showed up there to pick up Paul, whom she asked me to drop off there. She freakin’ KNOWS this.
She also still owes me $575 for the repair bill for her truck which I paid for and for which she had agreed to repay me.
She’s just in a bad mood and is taking it out on me.
311 Andy // Jul 1, 2009 at 2:19 pm
“little bit // Jul 1, 2009 at 11:33 am
Also, Mark Pickins has done excellent work for the LP party and has never been fired ever.”
Actually, Mark Pickens was in fact fired by Sean Haugh as Sean had accused him of “sneaking” Gary Fincher into Massachusetts, even though Mark was in Colorado at the time and had nothing to do with Gary being there as Gary had been INVITED by LP of Mass State Chair George Phillies. This was later overturned when Haugh was exposed as a crazy, derranged fool when the “Massachusetts Petition Burning” scandal broke and got spread around on the blogs.
Haugh is a jabroni (see definition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIIzpuN5hdg&feature=related )and should not be taken seriously by anyone. Fortunately he was fired from his job as Political Director last December.
312 little bit // Jul 1, 2009 at 2:53 pm
no, he never told me he was coming to pick paul up. He just showed up. When I asked him to leave he would not. I had to threaten to call the front desk at my apt. to have him removed. Finally he left and made SEVERAL remarks the whole way.He tried to come up to my apartment, too. He is a sociopathic predator. I am sick of being harassed, texted and called all the time. I am saying this to you publicly Andy, I don’t want you, and I can’t make Gary pay you the 8 grand he owes you. Good luck as he is employed right now, so have fun with that. I will never want you. Quit sending messages to me through people also. And quit waking my son up in the middle of the night with your phone calls. Not to mention all the terrible lies you told when you actually called my own mother to tell her your in love with me. How weird. Get over me and cut me out of your life. Stop filling up my voicemail and quit masturbating to pictures of my face-I have been told some weird things you do about me.
313 little bit // Jul 1, 2009 at 3:44 pm
Andy has been paid in full, as he says, its not about the money, he says he is in love with me and is disappointed and I am just angry and taking it out on him.
314 paulie // Jul 1, 2009 at 4:54 pm
@ Irons
Very clever distortions. Nothing exactly correct, but each lie with enough x-order tangential relation to some truth to have some plausibility to someone somewhere – Goebbels would be proud….
315 paulie // Jul 1, 2009 at 5:07 pm
All mercs hired by LP in 2008, some before as well.
LOL – there is such a thing as average for each and you have measured it along all possible variables?
316 paulie // Jul 1, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Well over 100, although a bunch of them are Belushi college shirts
and some others are in storage in Alabama
317 paulie // Jul 1, 2009 at 5:16 pm
I don’t think so. He would not talk bad about himself and his friends or try to steer work to people he hates.
318 paulie // Jul 1, 2009 at 5:29 pm
That plus a highly negative article about Bill Redpath, probably a lot of other things not made public.
He was always (or seemed like) nice to me except when we had a falling out about work. Since then he has done everything possible to kill me, including publishing an article with my real name when he knows I don’t post it on the internet in conjunction with my online persona due to death threats against me.
Anyone who intentionally does that to me as far as I am concerned has no redeeming value whatsoever.
Threatening to sue IPR so they would remove me as a writer, remove all articles and comments about him and post his version of whatever he wanted on the front page top and center for three months was the icing on the cake.
319 paulie // Jul 1, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Yep, that would be the best way but everyone wants to continue perpetuating an excuse to keep the drama alive
320 paulie // Jul 1, 2009 at 5:36 pm
She said that is a very Schrier-like statement.
321 paulie // Jul 1, 2009 at 5:48 pm
As far as I know that is an exageration. Andy does have some pictures of you he likes to look at and show people, but I’ve never seen him masturbate to those or anything else.
322 paulie // Jul 1, 2009 at 5:53 pm
Only due to a unilateral reassessment on your part.
323 mdh // Jul 1, 2009 at 6:32 pm
@316 – Who is that girl?
324 libertariangirl // Jul 1, 2009 at 6:58 pm
littlebit , if Andy and Paul are traveling together , and Andy drops Paul off , isnt it understood he’ll be there later to pick him back up.
325 libertariangirl // Jul 1, 2009 at 7:01 pm
I don’t think so. He would not talk bad about himself and his friends or try to steer work to people he hates.
me–lol thats true , Andy could NEVER say something nice about Haugh, even in jest
326 Steven R Linnabary // Jul 1, 2009 at 7:24 pm
Gawd…It’s only been one day, and I miss Milnes and his inner voices. That was better than this rancorous pissing contest.
PEACE
327 little bit // Jul 1, 2009 at 7:50 pm
Libertarian Girl, I had no Idea that he was picking him up at that time. I did not want Andy to know what apartment was mine. So when Andy dropped him off, I had waited till Andy left to call out to Paul and let him in. I told Andy specifically never to show up at my apt complex to stalk, also, Paul just now left, they were never ready to leave till just now. Andy came by to see if Paul wanted to go to breakfast,,,supposedly. But he never let Paul or myself know he was coming to ask. He just popped in and was walking around then yelling around. Paul had nothing packed and was going to the bathroom when Andy dropped in unannounced. You see what I mean?
328 little bit // Jul 1, 2009 at 7:52 pm
” She’s just in a bad mood and is taking it out on me.
She said that is a very Schrier-like statement.”
…………..and Paul agreed. It was interesting he said that Andy had many Schrier qualities.
329 little bit // Jul 1, 2009 at 7:53 pm
as far as the masterbating bit, it was told to me by someone who roomed with Andy. A good friend of his. A good friend of mine. They believe him to be off his rocker right now,and are scared for me.
330 mdh // Jul 1, 2009 at 7:55 pm
@324 – Paul (via phone from the interstate) says to define later.
331 little bit // Jul 1, 2009 at 7:57 pm
I am of the belief that Andy actually posted this post himself. eek what do we think of that. Maybe he is developing multiple personalities as a symptom of a nervous breakdown.
PAUL- both you and Matt came to this conclusion. I was typing it as you guys said it. We all decided it was the only way. Matt believed it solidly and you thought it was possible. I couldn’t believe he could or would do something like that saying such horribly true things about himself and such bad things bout his friends. Either way, someone tapped into my line of action. Not cool. I know you can’t have Andy mad at you and are only scared he is going to continue to yell and hit his steering wheel and yell and yell and you don’t want him throwing you out on the road again like he did the other night. But you have been a good friend to him and he should not abuse you.
332 libertariangirl // Jul 1, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Girl , I feel you , I was only pointing it out , cuz with some folks even the slightest act or word can be mis-construed in their head , instead of simple kindness , its viewed as leadingon or an invite somehow.
some people have to have it spelled out and i think youve done that.
there is the matter of the payment for fixing the car , which Andy says you org. agreed to pay and now as P points out , you have decided to reassess and not to.
i believe i heard your reason for this is because Andy’ harassed you. I dont think thats a valid reason.
333 libertariangirl // Jul 1, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Little Bit , you may have dodged a bullet:)
334 mdh // Jul 1, 2009 at 8:11 pm
I am just sitting here eating delicious juicy watermelon.
335 libertariangirl // Jul 1, 2009 at 8:17 pm
im eating jello with fruit in it , healthy …yum!
336 little bit // Jul 1, 2009 at 9:50 pm
I had a mango earlier, Me and P did. It was an interesting day with the exceotion that P really wants to get back to the job in WV so he can finish it!
337 libertariangirl // Jul 1, 2009 at 9:55 pm
Mangos are awesome , but expensive , at least here in NV
338 Third Party Revolution // Jul 1, 2009 at 10:05 pm
So this article’s number of comments is getting larger no matter how old it is. Maybe my idea of beating the article of Angela Keaton resigning in number of comments can be met eventually.
339 little bit // Jul 1, 2009 at 10:14 pm
337- yeah they are expensive. I think it is ridiculous how expensive fruit and veggies are. I think it’s a conspiracy to make all the junk food so cheap and affordable and all the healthy food so unaffordable.
340 libertariangirl // Jul 1, 2009 at 11:57 pm
i think your right little bit , crap and garbage food is plentiful and cheap , healthy , natural foods are very expensive.
341 Trent Hill // Jul 2, 2009 at 3:42 am
I can’t believe how many comments have been left about mangos or fruit cups, lol.
342 paulie // Jul 2, 2009 at 3:36 pm
melissa, petitioner, 2003
343 paulie // Jul 2, 2009 at 4:25 pm
I really do not think he could but we came up with a new theory, someone may have jacked into IPR’s server …may have something to do with all the site outages lately
344 paulie // Jul 2, 2009 at 4:38 pm
me 2 listening to afroman
345 paulie // Jul 2, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Jello is healthy?
346 libertariangirl // Jul 2, 2009 at 4:47 pm
it isnt?
i must have meant
im eating jello with fruit in it , at least its not ice cream or candy , god i want some ice cream , fuck that dont ruin your gym time debbie , why cant i grow boobs , but my thass gets bigger , just eat your jello and quit stressin , jello sucks
347 Third Party Revolution // Jul 2, 2009 at 5:04 pm
So how did u guys get on the discussion of jello and fruits?
348 libertariangirl // Jul 2, 2009 at 5:05 pm
start 334
349 mdh // Jul 3, 2009 at 6:22 am
So, does anyone else here like anime? I just got done watching Last Exile and started on Get Backers, the latter of which is kind of underwhelming me so far. Perhaps it’s just that I got an English dub (ugh… fansubs are by far preferable but an original sub is usually tolerable. English is such a crappy language.) or something, but it’s not anywhere near as dark or intense as it sounded like it might be from reviews/etc.
Anyways, anyone have any offbeat suggestions for what I might watch next?
350 paulie // Jul 3, 2009 at 7:56 am
Some good anime clips occasionally on porntube, xtube, redtube, tube8 and many similar sites, I’m not well versed enough to remember the names. For example http://www.redtube.com/?search=anime …you can find tons of other sites like that via google or other searches
351 mdh // Jul 3, 2009 at 8:25 am
I mean anime as in shows, not hentai..
352 paulie // Jul 3, 2009 at 8:28 am
Dunno. I’d have to be more educated on the difference. I’ve seen some anime type movies…Ghost something or other…
BTW you do not seem to be sleeping much this week. I’m not either (insomnia, not drugs) except last night but if you have some good uppers let me know, may as well ride the wave to the point where the exhaustion turns to euphoria again.
353 mdh // Jul 3, 2009 at 8:33 am
I’m high on life. Seriously. I use drugs to be able to slow down and relax, hence my love of pot and narcotics.
354 mdh // Jul 3, 2009 at 8:34 am
Feel like hanging out downtown and getting sigs? I just had breakfast. Texted you about zenclay but you didn’t respond, your phone still dead?
355 mdh // Jul 3, 2009 at 8:35 am
I am at panera now drinking coffee.
356 libertariangirl // Jul 3, 2009 at 11:22 am
my kids a anime freak , she spends 5 to 6 hrs a day drawing and has for years now . shes really , really good .
try demonic 360
357 little bit // Jul 3, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Pauli, It was Ghost in the Shell that you watched. It is an amazing piece of work.
358 paulie // Jul 3, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Thank you dear. And happy birthday!
BTW that is PauliE – I and E are a package deal
359 mdh // Jul 3, 2009 at 3:03 pm
I’ve seen all of GitS – both series’ and all three movies. The second series is my favorite, very political.
360 mdh // Jul 3, 2009 at 3:06 pm
Or just ‘a’ – Paula…
361 paulie // Jul 3, 2009 at 3:10 pm
No, that would be someone else entirely, but Mattilda may be sitting on your side of the table, if so I can see how you could draw that confusion.
362 paulie // Jul 3, 2009 at 3:10 pm
I’ve seen at least two GitS or somehow related, not sure which ones
363 paulie // Jul 3, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Me too, except I like drugs to speed up and stay awake and calm my nerves at the same time to take the edge of the speeding up.
364 Third Party Revolution // Jul 3, 2009 at 8:15 pm
Only 363/735, or 49.4% of the way till we beat that article about Angela Keaton resigning in number of comments.
365 little bit // Jul 3, 2009 at 9:32 pm
mdh-re:what should I watch next- You should watch night watch, day watch and immortal. If your into buddhism and craziness you should check out GOZU and also OLDEBOY all foreign flicks.
366 Andy // Jul 4, 2009 at 2:26 am
“little bit // Jul 3, 2009 at 9:32 pm
mdh-re:what should I watch next- You should watch night watch, day watch and immortal. If your into buddhism and craziness you should check out GOZU and also OLDEBOY all foreign flicks.”
Paul might be interested in Night Watch and Day Watch because they are Russian (apparently, the two biggest films made in that country).
High Tension is a really cool French horror film that Christy showed me. Check it out.
367 Third Party Revolution // Jul 4, 2009 at 6:33 am
How did you guys get on the subject of movies?
368 mdh // Jul 4, 2009 at 6:44 am
Andy, is that anime or just regular movies? lol
369 Andy // Jul 4, 2009 at 7:47 am
“mdh // Jul 4, 2009 at 6:44 am
Andy, is that anime or just regular movies? lol”
The 3 that I mentioned were all regular movies.
370 little bit // Jul 4, 2009 at 11:21 am
@368
The movie ad mitum(I believe) which is called Immortal in English is Animated with actors, too. It is visually stunning and beautiful. It is also russian.
371 Third Party Revolution // Jul 4, 2009 at 3:18 pm
I believe that this article has the second largest amount of comments on IPR. Is that correct?
372 paulie // Jul 5, 2009 at 9:03 am
No, we had several in 400s
373 paulie // Jul 5, 2009 at 9:04 am
@367 I think Matt started it
374 paulie // Jul 5, 2009 at 9:05 am
@368
The movie ad mitum(I believe) which is called Immortal in English is Animated with actors, too. It is visually stunning and beautiful. It is also russian.
I’ll try to check it out
375 paulie // Jul 5, 2009 at 9:06 am
Only 363/735, or 49.4% of the way till we beat that article about Angela Keaton resigning in number of comments.
Thanks for keeping up with the stats, LOL
376 Third Party Revolution // Jul 5, 2009 at 9:25 am
And speaking of independents, recently a California State Assembly member, Juan Arambula, switched his affiliation from Democrat to Independent. http://www.sacbee.com/capitolandcalifornia/story/1970145.html
377 Third Party Revolution // Jul 5, 2009 at 11:18 am
Currently 377/735, or 51.3% of the way till we beat that article of Angela Keaton resigning in number of comments.
378 paulie // Jul 5, 2009 at 11:31 am
Over 50% – that means it’s all downhill from here
379 Third Party Revolution // Jul 5, 2009 at 11:55 am
I just wish that IPR published an article that was worth talking about.
380 paulie // Jul 5, 2009 at 11:57 am
Got anything in particular in mind?
The fact that we have people here talking suggests to me that we publish some things that some people find worth talking about.
381 paulie // Jul 5, 2009 at 11:59 am
Oops, hit “delete” instead of reply.
Steve Linnabary said it sounds like TPR is asking for a job.
382 paulie // Jul 5, 2009 at 12:00 pm
My reply: the hours are long, the pay is non-existent, and the human resources department frequently gets overruled by off-site management in hiring decisions, but other than that, sure!
383 paulie // Jul 5, 2009 at 12:04 pm
Independent Political Report
Site Summary
VISITS
Total 697,785
Average Per Day 827
Average Visit Length 3:43
Last Hour 41
Today 329
This Week 5,792
PAGE VIEWS
Total 2,000,482
Average Per Day 1,861
Average Per Visit 2.2
Last Hour 116
Today 717
This Week 13,030
384 mdh // Jul 5, 2009 at 12:25 pm
How about IPR gives away something free for the 1 millionth visitor. Maybe a free ipod or a free laptop.
It could be advertised via a huge flashing gif image that links to the redemption page.
385 Third Party Revolution // Jul 5, 2009 at 2:30 pm
I know that the article I posted @376 won’t make alot of comments, but it would be nice if you published it.
386 paulie // Jul 5, 2009 at 5:40 pm
Hopefully someone will. I just six articles in a row recently so I want to give other people a chance to have their say too.
in the meantime………
387 paulie // Jul 5, 2009 at 5:42 pm
oops, there was more
> From: Restore the Republic!
> To:Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:07 AM
> Subject: JNGII, do not forget to tune in to the NATIONAL EMERGENCY
> Webcast at 3pm Eastern today.
>
> Hey JNGII,
>
> Join me at 3pm EST, 2pm CST, 1pm MST, 12pm PST, as we discuss the
> developing NATIONAL EMERGENCY Threat to our freedom with Mark
> Lerner. The Real ID has morphed into the PASS Act and we will
> discuss what it is, what it means and how to kill it before it ever
> hits the Senate floor for a vote. We did not have that luxury with
> Real ID, we had to fight it AFTER it passed.
>
> The PASS Act (S.1261) is a REAL and PRESENT DANGER to our National
> Security and we must come together to stop it before it stops us.
>
> DETAILS to listen by web or phone or submit
questions:http://republicmagazine.com/webinar/
>
> Stop whatever you are doing, at 3pm Eastern today, and gather all
> your friends and family to learn about and take action against this
> CRUCIAL piece of FREEDOM KILLING legislation.
>
> Your Friend Forever in Freedom,
>
> Gary Franchi
> National Director
> Restore the Republic!
>
> PS. If you missed the NATIONAL EMERGENCY VIDEO ALERT watch it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kE8xDMokpM
388 little bit // Jul 13, 2009 at 9:09 pm
and….get rid of affirmative action. lol
389 paulie // Jul 13, 2009 at 9:40 pm
LOL, I was wondering if this thread was going to start back up
390 little bit // Jul 14, 2009 at 7:24 pm
yeah, I sorta was too. miss you paulie
391 paulie // Jul 14, 2009 at 7:37 pm
Miss you too!
Most new comments right now are here
http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/07/rick-randall-time-to-oust-the-anarchists-from-the-libertarian-party/
392 paulie // Jul 17, 2009 at 11:04 am
400 is in striking distance
393 libertariangirl // Jul 17, 2009 at 11:10 am
the randall thread is getting long too
394 paulie // Jul 17, 2009 at 11:17 am
we’re about 100 comments ahead so far here
395 Melissa Seli // Aug 27, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Since this thread seems to be going a bit long on the notion of paying back your debts and being fair/honest, I wonder if mdh could be so kind as to return all the texts and voicemails requesting the final divorce date. Seriously. This was supposed to be over in early August. I don’t mind not getting my money back, or my furniture, or the personal belongings, and I don’t mind that I had to run off and start life over with literally less than $5 in my pocket. What I do mind is that I can’t even get a final yes/no on the divorce.
Since we are being so nice and honest here, how about you email me with the court date and the results, so that I can petition the court and get my paperwork without you knowing where or who I am now
Thanks!
~M
396 paulie // Aug 27, 2009 at 9:38 pm
Let us know how it turns out.
397 allforsmiles // Aug 30, 2009 at 7:44 pm
yeah, let me know how that goes, too. That seems really unfair to m e. Men always are when it comes to divorce.
398 Melissa Seli // Sep 4, 2009 at 10:03 am
Still nothing… except he changed his voicemail, so at least he’s not dead or anything. It’s hilarious that I sent him money to pay for the paperwork involved, and now I’m suspecting it was never done at all. Perhaps that’s just paranoia and anger mingling.
Now I’m left trying to figure out how I can get a case number (if there ever was a case) and find out if I’m divorced yet or not.
I will probably end up having to refile (more money) and get it all done myself, a year later than I would have liked.
399 El Grande Chupacabra // Sep 4, 2009 at 10:04 am
That sucks. Good luck.
400 Mary Had A Little Lamb // Sep 11, 2009 at 10:48 pm
400, bitches!
Roll, roll, roll your joint twist it at the end, take a puff, that’s enough and pass it to a friend.
……….
Jack and Jill went up the hill to smoke some marijuana, Jack got high, unzipped his fly, and Jill said “I don’t wanna”
Jack and Jill went up the hill to have a little fun. Stupid Jill forgot her pill and now they have a son.
401 401, k? // Sep 11, 2009 at 10:50 pm
Old Mother Hubbard went to the cubbard
to fetch her poor dog a bone.
But when she bent over,
Rover took over
And the bitch got a bone of her own!
402 Who's Thumbing Who? // Sep 15, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Any reactions Mr. Harris?
403 libertariangirl // Sep 15, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Jack and Jill went up the hill
each with a buck and a quarter
jill came down with 2.50
404 libertariangirl // Sep 15, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Matt , whats up with that? you gotta right this wrong .
405 Who's Thumbing Who? // Sep 19, 2009 at 5:49 pm
Ostrich technique! most impressive.
406 Who's Thumbing Who? // Sep 22, 2009 at 3:58 pm
http://www.ballot-access.org/2009/09/22/ross-perot-in-the-news-again/
Ross Perot in the News Again
September 22nd, 2009
Dell Incorporated, maker of computers, has offered to buy Perot Systems Corporation for $30 per share. Ross Perot and his family are selling the company that he founded after his first company was bought by General Motors in 1988. See this story. According to other stories, it is estimated that Ross Perot Sr. was already worth $5 billion, and his son Ross Jr. was already worth $2 billion, and the sale will add $1 billion to Perot family wealth.
407 W is a 911 terrorist and Obama Been Lyin' // Sep 22, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Peter, Peter, pumpkin eater.
Whacked off in the movie theater.
Sprayed his load across the screen
And ruined Titanic’s final scene
408 Diceman Cometh // Sep 22, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Georgie Porgie Puddin’ and Pie
Jerked off in his girlfriend’s eye
When her eye was dry and shut
Georgie fucked that one eyed slut!
409 Diceman Cometh // Sep 22, 2009 at 5:19 pm
Rock-a-bye baby, on the tree top
Your mother’s a whore,
I ain’t your pop.
410 Melissa Seli // Sep 24, 2009 at 11:18 am
In the interest of being absolutely fair, Matt did contact me last night via text. Apparently a divorce takes at least a year and a half. I don’t agree, and still have no evidence that anything was filed, so I am filing for divorce myself from my end. If our petitions cross, so be it. I’d rather be double-divorced. This will cost me more money, more time, and more paperwork than I would like, but it’ll be done with. Two months to get ahold of someone so they can say “No Wv divorce without a witness. No witness until February. Hearing then.”
So, in short, I’m “righting the wrong” myself. I should have figured the marriage would end much the same as it existed: with me doing the work, Matt taking the credit, and (it’s coming, trust me) painting me as the bad guy while laughing his way to another bout of incredible personal irresponsibility.
End of story from my side; we now return you to your regularly-scheduled forum posts.
411 libertariangirl // Sep 24, 2009 at 11:29 am
MEN , ugh!!! sometimes…
412 paulie // Nov 25, 2009 at 9:12 pm
There are certain parallels here to one of the conflicts discussed in the comments above, LOL…
413 Russki Belushsski // Nov 26, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Gary as Obama and Andy as Hu Jintao?
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