Chelene Nightingale joins the Constitution Party

Chelene Nightingale is the director of Save Our State, an anti-illegal immigration group in California. Gary Odom, National Political Director of the Constitution Party, had this to say about her:

“As director Chelene has organized several marches in the Los Angeles area including the “Free the Texas Three” march in Hollywood featured on “America’s Most Wanted” and the Stop the North American Union march to the Federal Building in Westwood.  In addition to organizing marches and protests for Save Our State, Chelene has also lobbied both in Sacramento and Washington D.C.  As the representative for SOS, Chelene has not only been featured in local and national news and radio, but also as a special guest speaker at several events in California.  Currently she is one of the organizers for Secure The Border Now July 4th event II at the border in California. Prior to her work with Save Our State, Chelene was a professional actress appearing in numerous television and motion picture productions.  She is a member of the Screen Actors Guild and AFTRA.”

Below, I will print the entire text of Chelene Nightingale’s open letter to the Constitution Party:

From The Desk of Chelene Nightingale 

March 13, 2009

 
Dear Constitution Party
 
It is an honor to be welcomed to my new home, the Constitution Party!   
 
As many are in their late teens and early 20’s, I considered myself a democrat in my political views.  I cared about the “underdog” , the “victims”, and the “poverty stricken” and truly believed (based on the public indoctrination school system) that the democrat party was the “caring” party.   
 

However after entering the employment world, I quickly abhorred the amount of taxes deducted from my paychecks.  Yet with a mortgage tax, sales tax, federal and state tax, the underdog, victim, and poverty stricken still existed.  Wasn’t a portion of my hard earned money being taken to help the government welfare programs?  

Although in my early 20’s, I paid very little attention to politics, with the exception of ABC Nightly News and an occasional Time magazine, I still realized that the welfare system was not successful.  In my humble opinion, it enslaved citizens and kept them in the never ending cycle of victim.   

I felt betrayed by democrats, so joined the ranks of the Reagan Party aka the Republicans.  Especially after discovering a new faith in Christ, the party represented my conservative values better with the pro-life and pro-family stance.  And I did what any party faithful follows….voting party only.  Their background nor their beliefs mattered as long as the candidate had an ( R ) by their name. 

Yes, I voted for George W. Bush and even Arnold Schwarzenegger (it did not matter that he was married into the democrat Kennedy family, because he had an ( R ) by his name.  I trusted anyone in the ‘conservative’ party. 

While party faithful, I still did not pay attention to politics as education taught me to just trust our government.  By trusting, I could just go about my life and enjoy.   

But along came the tragic day on 9/11.  Like millions around the world, I watched the news in horror, yet something did not seem truthful.  I am no rocket scientist or engineer, but the way the buildings collapsed did not seem right.  And how did everyone escape the Pentagon?  Why did that scene look not so tragic?  I could not put the pieces together, but questions were raised and it forced me to pay some attention to politics. 

Shortly thereafter, the birth of my son caused me to be very introspective and evaluate the current affairs of our nation and world.   Meanwhile, one of my co-workers was a member of the fairly new organization Save Our State founded by Joseph Turner.  My co-worker, a dear friend, tried to introduce me to www.saveourstate.org , however at the time I could not believe that illegal immigration and open borders existed; especially after 9/11. 

After a couple months of  my friends persistence, I joined Save Our State in the spring of 2005.  In no time I was organizing events for the organization with a passionate belief that elected officials had betrayed we the American people

These past 4 years have been a journey of political awakening.  Open borders, a mass criminal invasion,  the unjust prosecutions of border patrol agents Ramos & Compean, Gary Brugman, Noe Aleman, and Deputy Sheriff Gilmer Hernandez, the erosion of our United States Constitution, the bailouts and stimulus packages, a serving president without a birth certificate, and voter fraud are just a few examples that caused me to stop being loyal to the two party system.   

In 2006, I not only voted for my first third party candidate, I also served as this candidates campaign manager.  The candidate was Art Olivier for California Governor.  It was during Art’s campaign that I learned about the other third party choices.  Unfortunately I also learned the giant obstacles a third party must overcome – lack of donations, unrepresented in the media, ignored in the big debates, and the ol’ “voting for lesser of two evils, because a third party can never win” propaganda. 

Although Art did not win the gubernatorial race due to the normal third party challenges, the outcome caused me to be even more determined to save our country from the corrupt two party system.   

At first I remained in the GOP to change the party back to the party of Reagan and Lincoln.  I was encouraged with the Ron Paul Revolution!  In fact, I was invited to join Dr.Paul for a private meeting with other pro legal immigration/pro secure border organization leaders.  After the meeting I enthusiastically endorsed Ron Paul for President.  I was excited to join the Revolution with a renewed hope our nation could be saved and restored to our Founding Fathers’ original vision.  

Unfortunately Ron Paul was treated like a third party candidate even by his own GOP peers.  With a huge faithful following and historic donations somehow CFR member McCain became the Republican candidate.  Like most politically aware Americans,  I sensed corruption.  The George Soros crowd knew McCain would lose to Obama and feared Ron Paul would actually win preventing their New World Order Agenda. 

At last, I was fully awake to the political two-party system nightmare and knew there was no chance of bringing the GOP back to its glory days.  With Ron Paul out of the race, I proudly voted for third party candidate, Pastor Chuck Baldwin!  Besides Dr. Paul. Chuck Baldwin was the only candidate who truly represented me.  I looked forward to every Chuck Baldwin email since he spoke with such truth, honor, conviction, and patriotism. 

 
After the election, McCain’s campaign manager, Rick Davis blamed ‘nativists’ and ‘conservatives’ for John’s presidential bid loss.  He further stated that we would need to change with the party.  This was the final outrage for me as an American Nativist!  Encouraged by a phone call from Larry Breazeale and Bill Lussenheide, I gladly re-registered as a member of the Constitution Party affiliate in California!  A party that wants to restore our nation back to the wishes of Thomas Jefferson and company, to secure our borders, and to allow us our freedoms and rights!  
 
Although we will continue to battle the third party obstacles, I believe with every new tea party, with every new loss of freedom due to more big government, and with every new person awakening to the harsh realities in our nation, the Constitution Party will increase in membership and influence! 
 
Yes we have a mighty battle ahead of us, but the adage “history always repeats itself” should help us recall The American Revolutionary War lead by George Washington.  Let’s repeat the victory!! 

Best Regards,

Chelene Nightingale 

443 thoughts on “Chelene Nightingale joins the Constitution Party

  1. Trent Hill Post author

    To be clear, she joined the Constitution Party and registered into the American Independent Party–since she’s in California. Look for Nightingale to become a big player in third party politics over the coming years. She’s a motivate mover and shaker.

  2. Kimberly Wilder

    Don’t want to get into the whole argument about it. But, just for the record, I thought I would state my position once:

    There has always been, and always will be immigration. It is silly to think that after we are born here, we can keep everyone else out.

    The word “illegal” is misleading. Having papers or not is not truly a crime. It is a civil matter. And, in past centuries, there was no such thing as having to apply for citizenship or meet a quota. People just came.

    Also, connecting 9-11 to a need to close borders seems silly to be. There were not any Mexican suicide bombers on those planes.

    That’s my two cents.

    But, interesting that a third party got a new player.

    Peace,
    Kimberly Wilder

  3. Trent Hill Post author

    Kimberly,

    I concur that immigration will, and should, always occur. Illegal immigration, im torn on. While I hate the whole “your papers please” thing–Rothbard’s private property/closed borders theorem is probably much closer to my own thoughts, and I remain highly sympathetic to the Lawrence Vance point of view.

    To be clear, becuase I know im talking to someone who doesnt run in libertarian circles. Rothbard said that since all property is private property (as in, the United States has no right to “own” borderlands, highways, etc)–those people who OWN the property that is migrated on should decide whether it is ohk for immigrants to come through their property (just as you do with your own property). However, this takes place in an already-privatized libertarian system. Lawrence Vance’s essay on immigration can be found here.
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance164.html

  4. Trent Hill Post author

    To be clear, “Save Our State” is a fairly massive group. They do protests all over California, and swing alot of weight, imparticular, in Southern and Northern California (the extremes, not the vast middle). Nightingale was Libertarian Gubernatorial candidate Art Olivier’s campaign manager when he ran–so she’s not a newcomer to third party politics.

  5. Susan Hogarth

    The word “illegal” is misleading. Having papers or not is not truly a crime.

    Right ON!

  6. Trent Hill Post author

    We’re in agreement on that part. But trespassing on private property–IS a crime.

  7. Bill Lussenheide

    RE: Kimberly Post #2

    Having been to the border and touring it, and talking with border agents etc., you would find a different point of view.

    The southern border of the country is not just an avenue for Mexican illegal access. Agents have found Korans in the desert, and have made arrests of people from many different countries including China.

    It IS A SECURITY risk, there are many places around Campo that have huge holes under a laughable fence, many places where there is only a single strand of barbed wire etc.

    If virtually anyone can sneak through, and there are middle easterners that are indeed part of the mix, what stops terrorists, or smugglers of WMDs from coming here??

    Yes the Mexican border is connected to 911 terrorism, a fact that few are willing to examine. It IS a security risk to this country.

  8. Trent Hill Post author

    “What about “trespassing” on socialist property paid for by foreign laborers?”

    I dont follow. How could the “socialist property” be paid for by foriegn laborers? It was Kelo’d (stolen) from Americans and paid for by Americans.

  9. Trent Hill Post author

    “Agents have found Korans in the desert, and have made arrests of people from many different countries including China. ”

    So? What bearing does this have on anything? Why does it matter what ethnicity the illegal aliens are, Chinese or Mexican? And the Koran, so what? Would you be upset if they’d found Bibles (which they’ve likely found far more of)?

  10. Trent Hill Post author

    “It IS A SECURITY risk, there are many places around Campo that have huge holes under a laughable fence, many places where there is only a single strand of barbed wire etc.

    If virtually anyone can sneak through, and there are middle easterners that are indeed part of the mix, what stops terrorists, or smugglers of WMDs from coming here??

    Yes the Mexican border is connected to 911 terrorism, a fact that few are willing to examine. It IS a security risk to this country.”

    Facts combat this reasoning. More middle easterners cross throguh the Canadian border than the Mexican border. Also, the terrorists who committed 9/11 all came here LEGALLY. Please explain how illegal immigration is connected to 9/11 in any way.
    As for the fence, it doesnt matter how well they build it–people will cut through it, run over it, go around, under, or over it. Barring that, they’ll simply blow it up. Furthermore, do you really want a double-sided, fortress-like, wall on our borders being patrolled with machine gunners and gaurd dogs? What if our government, like so many others, decides to use these walls to keep us IN? and what happens when Illegals simply start swimming or boating around the edge of the border fence? Are we going to have machine gunners standing in the tides,too?

  11. G.E.

    I dont follow. How could the “socialist property” be paid for by foriegn laborers? It was Kelo’d (stolen) from Americans and paid for by Americans.

    Ha. Americans don’t pay their bills. We’re living on China’s dime. “We” have no more legitimate claim to those roads than do those fearsome Mexicanz who threaten our national security by working for market wages. But even if “we” did (and “we” don’t), what of my share? What gives the CP fascists the right to determine what’s done with my share of the roads? I say let all of the Mexicans in, send all of the CPers out.

  12. Trent Hill Post author

    If thew Chinese decide not to collect that debt, or if we default on it–fine. But thus far, neither has happened, so it’s our road, bought with borrowed money.

    As for the rest, read Lawrence Vance’s piece. “we” have a stake in the property, and the control thereof, so long as it remains nationalized. If we abandon it to the open borders position you so forcefully believe in, the welfare system will grow exponentially, to the point where the American system will collapse (which you likely view as a good thing, but I dont).

    Im not making an arguement against immigration, for the record, im making an arguement against illegal immigration and for private property. You are the one supporting the socialism of the road–I want to end it.

  13. Bryan

    I have a hard time believing that the Mexico border is that much of a national security risk…more so than the Canadian border which is MUCH larger. Not to mention our coastlines.

    Our country has “fought the drug war” for decades…and has lost. If you can “import” drugs, why not weapons…including those of MD???

    If you believe in a free market, I feel you must also believe in free trade, which would then mean…open borders…

    If you believe in human equality…I feel you must also believe in … open borders…

    I wrote an article on the new “North American Union”, and I wrote it from a Green Party perspective, but it would have held up to Libertarian scrutiny. Let each of these countries, the US, CA, and Mex, contribute their part of the comparative advantage…Mexico provides much of the labor, the US would provide financing, technology, and logistical support, with Canada providing many of the natural resources….In a true free market this will happen ANYWAY.

  14. Trent Hill Post author

    “I say let all of the Mexicans in, send all of the CPers out.”

    Now who’s the fascist? You want to forcefully let mexicans in, despite what property owners on the border say? And you want to forcefully remove CPers from their homes and deport them?

    I say privatize the property.

  15. G.E.

    Trent – I don’t want to force anyone to do anything. I’m saying, if I have a share of the roads, I would gladly allow my share to be used to allow capitalist-laborer Mexcians to come in, while anticapitalist parasite CPers can head back to the Mother Country by way of Canada.

    I’m sorry you don’t view the collapse of the welfare state as a good thing.

    You know I am also for privatization of roads, and in fact, for every square inch of earth. You don’t normally take the straw-man route, Trent.

  16. Morgan Brykein

    If we make all illegal immigration legal, that will lead to the Mexican drug cartels expanding into America. They don’t just sell drugs – they kill people. I think we should send the army to the border. The drug cartels will be stopped from kidnapping people or transporting US guns.

  17. Trent Hill Post author

    “I would gladly allow my share to be used to allow capitalist-laborer Mexcians to come in”

    Ohk. We can take a “share-holders’ vote”. In all liklihood, the border would remain closed to illegals.

  18. Trent Hill Post author

    “If you believe in a free market, I feel you must also believe in free trade, which would then mean…open borders…

    If you believe in human equality…I feel you must also believe in … open borders…”

    Rothbard didnt seem to think so.

  19. Trent Hill Post author

    “I’m sorry you don’t view the collapse of the welfare state as a good thing.”

    What I said was this:
    “If we abandon it to the open borders position you so forcefully believe in, the welfare system will grow exponentially, to the point where the American system will collapse”

    But that was a really fun strawman GE, let’s try another one sometime soon! I said I didnt want the welfare state to balloon (the complete opposite of collapse) and then the American system to crumble. Argue by the merits of the debate GE, don’t create your own strawmen to knock down.

  20. Trent Hill Post author

    “You know I am also for privatization of roads, and in fact, for every square inch of earth. You don’t normally take the straw-man route, Trent.”

    It doesnt seem like you are argueing for prizatization, it sounds like you want to keep the borders and roads owned by the public in order to have “open borders”.

  21. Trent Hill Post author

    “If we make all illegal immigration legal, that will lead to the Mexican drug cartels expanding into America. They don’t just sell drugs – they kill people. I think we should send the army to the border. The drug cartels will be stopped from kidnapping people or transporting US guns.”

    Sending the army to the border violates posse comitatus, drug prohibition CAUSES the violent crime associated with it, just as alchohol prohibition caused ancillary violence.

  22. Bryan

    You know, Rothbard supported Pat Buchanan in 1992…so it’s not so surprising that he didn’t “show any love” to the Mexicans….

  23. Trent Hill Post author

    Bryan,

    By the same line of reasoning, you’d likely say Rothbard liking Buchanan meant he didnt like Jews–but Rothbard is jewish himself. Sorry, that’s a pathetic smear-by-association.

    Rothbard, nor Buchanan actually, had anyproblem with Mexicans–they simply had opinions (differing) on how to enforce the border.

  24. Bryan

    Sorry, but Buchanan’s campaigns were largely based on isolationism and shutting down borders. If you supported him…you must have supported the same…

    The facts surrounding Buchanan’s views on the Jewish state are irrelevant.

  25. Trent Hill Post author

    “Sorry, but Buchanan’s campaigns were largely based on isolationism and shutting down borders. If you supported him…you must have supported the same…”

    False. You’ve no idea why certain people supported certain candidates. Rothbard was NOT an isolationist and did not advocate forcefully shutting down the borders the way Buchanan did–nor for the same (or even close to the same) reasons.

  26. Chris Cole

    The Mexican drug cartels are empowered by drug prohibition in the US. It is a problem CREATED by government intervention. End the prohibition, the black market will collapse. and its associated profits will dry up. The drug cartels will simply break up. The American nanny state is responsible for all those Mexican deaths. Let’s not blame the victims, Mexican workers.

  27. Dave Trelstad

    But the BIG picture evades all of you. Only David Hawkins and Field McConnel have the answers to what’s going on in this country. Go to http://www.hawkscafe.com and get the whole story. If you don’t, you will continue stumbling through the dark.

  28. libertariangirl

    Morgan —If we make all illegal immigration legal, that will lead to the Mexican drug cartels expanding into America. They don’t just sell drugs – they kill people. I think we should send the army to the border. The drug cartels will be stopped from kidnapping people or transporting US guns.

    Morgan the drug cartels are here already and they are everywhere. its prohibition that creates criminal enterprises , not immigration.

  29. Gary

    “There were not any Mexican suicide bombers on those planes.”

    There weren’t any Arab suicide bombers on them, either.

  30. Donald Raymond Lake

    Look for Nightingale to become a big player in third party politics over the coming years. She is a big frog in the world of small ponds. She’s a motivate mover and shaker, but some what flakey and short lived [attention wise]. Look for her to ‘disappear’ by 2012!
    —— Citizens For A Better Veterans Home
    [She and her group have never ever breathed a word on abused veterans…………..]

  31. libertariangirl

    Dave–But the BIG picture evades all of you. Only David Hawkins and Field McConnel have the answers to what’s going on in this country. Go to http://www.hawkscafe.com and get the whole story. If you don’t, you will continue stumbling through the dark.

    Gee thanks Dave for enlightening us all , if only we’d known that 2 certain people had all the answers we could all quit stumbling.

  32. G.E.

    Ohk. We can take a “share-holders’ vote”. In all liklihood, the border would remain closed to illegals.

    Maybe in your right-wing fantasies. Look at actual opinion polls, Trent. The world /= Louisiana.

    And YOU are the one making the “shareholder” argument. I’m only telling you the implications of it. YOU are the one saying that the socialist property is somehow “private” property of the U.S. people, and thus, non-citizens can be restricted from using it.

    The “American System” IS the welfare-warfare state. You want to manage it. I want to destroy it.

    I’ve never once used the term “open borders,” o ye constructor of straw men. I have no interest in “open borders.” My interest is in free markets, and your collectivist road system wherein the socialist roads bar certain people from using them is NOT “free market.” I don’t care what Rothbard or Christo-fascist Laurence Vance say. Mises supported the draft. You can’t just go into the “he said it” bag to justify your statism.

  33. Donald Raymond Lake

    Isn’t any one else tired of the alternative party style hype, hype, hype? Just because Citizens For A Better Veterans Home was founded in San Bernardino in 1998, does not mean that we keep tabs of every like CP like three blind mice in a dark basement organization.

    We contacted the Secret Society of Save Our State originally in 2005. They did not post us on their link page. —–Well, they have not ever posted any one on their link page, totally blank.

    They never phoned, they never wrote, and they are doing a GREAT job of invisibility. The local San Bernardino daily, NOT ONE Reference in five years.

    Shades of the Ron Paul 2008 masturbation: a “big player’ in alternative politics, hmmmm not that any one would know. Sad, sad, sad!

    760.263.7311
    619.420.0409

  34. Trent Hill Post author

    “Maybe in your right-wing fantasies. Look at actual opinion polls, Trent. The world /= Louisiana. ”

    You think an up-or-down vote would result in completely open and un-hindered immigration? I doubt it. I’d bet it results in somewhat moderate migration standards.
    For the record, Im all for legal immigration, and for it being expanded and made MUCH easier. This will eliminate the “illegal” alien problem.

  35. Trent Hill Post author

    And I dont support socialized roads GE, so it seems like we’re in violent agreement. We both want to privatize the roads and leave immigration up to those people who own the property. Arguement over.

  36. Trent Hill Post author

    And while Mises briefly flirted with the draft, he later opposed it wholly. So while Mises’ drafts of Human Action in ’63 and ’66 are marginally supportive of the draft, all other drafts (including before, starting in 1949) and statements written after those two drafts (as late as ’72) oppose the draft.

  37. John C

    I agree with Trent that a vote would not likely result in relaxed immigration. I don’t think the public generally has a very enlightened view on that ( or much of anything else) to put it nicely. My personal views ( pro-immigration) are irrelevant to the reality of public sentiment and political posturing.

  38. John C

    Mises and Rothbard aren’t the be all end all in libertarian thought. Ayn Rand either. I honestly don’t really give a fuck what Mises said if he was wrong.

  39. Trent Hill Post author

    hah. John, I would not often make an “appeal to authority”–but GE holds these men in very high esteem. He does the same to me by referring to Mises and Mencken.

  40. G.E.

    We are in agreement, Trent, except for one point: Given socialist roads, who has the authority to use them? I say there is no entity with any legitimate authority to say. You (and Rothbard) seem to think that the state and its people DO have some magical right to decide; presumably by Maoist popular vote.

  41. Deran

    99% of undocumented workers in this country are here to make money; not raise cain or do crimes. They are up here, and not in their own countries, making money because globalized “free trade” requires there to be an underclass to prop up the short-term “prosperity” that the post WW2 neo-liberal economics bubble created.

    Take away the “free trade” pacts, eliminate the ability of the multinational corporations to exploit, and viola; people acan earn a living in their own country.

    And it realy, really wouldn’t hurt us in the US to speak more than one language, and Spanish would be a good one to know.

    I think the CP will further degenerate into racist nativism as the economy gets worse.

  42. Trent Hill Post author

    Deran,

    Despite what you might thing, I met very few racists in the CP, about as many as I met in the LP. I met more blacks and more women in the CP than in the LP so far (though not as many as the GP). I met more Jews in the LP, but also met a few in the CP, too. I think “nativist” is a fair term, but racist is just a jab at them.

  43. G.E.

    Deran is right – “Free trade” allows people the freedom to go where the jobs are. What we have, of course, is not free trade, but managed-trade mercantilism. However, right now, the peaceful immigrant laborers are fleeing the sinking ship that is the U.S. The flow back into Mexico would be even stronger if not for the U.S. imperialist drug-war crusade putting that country in such harm right now. The immigration “problem” of the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s was caused by the central bank and their false boom.

  44. Steven R Linnabary

    The immigration “problem” of the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s was caused by the central bank and their false boom.

    And by the US installing and propping up corrupt, tyrannical puppet regimes south of the border. Of course people want to flee.

    PEACE

  45. Chelene Nightingale

    Greetings Everyone,

    Very interesting reception here. First, I would like to address Donald Lake. You make your judgment on me from a letter? I became a member of Save Our State in 2005, 4 years later and I am still going strong and in fact increasing my participation in politics. Second, I kindly emailed you back and was very confused by your email to Save Our State. I still do not have a clue what you are referencing. You certainly did not speak with me in 2005 and Save Our State certainly respects and supports both veterans and active military.

    In regard to Kimberly, it is not a civil matter, it is a federal legal matter according to Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, “Improper Entry by Alien,” any citizen of any country other than the United States who:

    * Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or
    * Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or
    * Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact;

    has committed a federal crime.

    Violations are punishable by criminal fines and imprisonment for up to six months. Repeat offenses can bring up to two years in prison. Additional civil fines may be imposed at the discretion of immigration judges, but civil fines do not negate the criminal sanctions or nature of the offense.

    Why have immigration laws? For security and sovereignty purposes. The United States is not the only nation with immigration and border laws.

    Without such laws then just anyone can walk into one’s nation. How would we be able to regulate our system without documentation of each citizen in a country. Over-population? Crime? Hospitals? Schools? Environment?

    Human nature wants to defy and rebel against laws, but God created laws for a reason…to protect humanity.

    Reagan said it best..”A nation without borders is not a nation.” As Europeans have unfortunately learned over the past few years. Italy is currently trying to end the illegal invasion into their country while many Europeans are now strongly raising their voices against the “union”.

    I am also curious how the word “Mexican” came up when responding to my letter? One of the reasons I left the two-party system behind was due to propaganda and spin. Illegal alien is not defined as Mexican! Illegal alien is defined as anyone from any country who criminally trespasses into our nation.

    And for the record I am a capitalist, but free trade does not equate to open border. One can freely trade with another country while securing the border for the sovereignty and security of the citizens.

    Thank you Trent for your warm welcome!! And yes, I did learn my first third party lesson with the Libertarians…another great third party! Art Olivier was a perfect candidate.

    Best Wishes to All!

  46. G.E.

    Without such laws then just anyone can walk into one’s nation.

    Your first task should be to look up the word “nation” — you’re using the word inappropriately, as a synonym for “country,” which it is not; and more ominously, as a synonym for “state.”

    In regard to Kimberly, it is not a civil matter, it is a federal legal matter according to Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code

    Where is this authorized in the Constitution? Is your new party the Constitution Party or the “U.S. Code” Party? A law repugnant to the Constitution is null and void, which accounts for 99% of the U.S. Code, including this section.

    Save our State? No thank you! Abolish it!!!

  47. Ross Levin

    GE – a big problem I’ve been noticing lately is that a lot of people think that just because something is illegal, it’s bad, or that it is bad because it is illegal. That’s just not true, and people need to realize that sometimes the law is wrong!

  48. G.E.

    That’s just not true, and people need to realize that sometimes the law is wrong!

    Not just sometimes… But almost always.

  49. Steven R Linnabary

    Human nature wants to defy and rebel against laws, but God created laws for a reason…to protect humanity.

    Wow…

    I hope the writer isn’t confusing God’s law with man’s law. Or does she think that our legislators are little gods?

    PEACE

  50. G.E.

    Or does she think that our legislators are little gods?

    That’s certainly what it sounds like.

  51. Gregg Jocoy

    Deran // Mar 16, 2009 at 7:51 pm

    99% of undocumented workers in this country are here to make money; not raise cain or do crimes. They are up here, and not in their own countries, making money because globalized “free trade” requires there to be an underclass to prop up the short-term “prosperity” that the post WW2 neo-liberal economics bubble created.
    {Not sure the percentage is 99%, but clearly the huge majority of people living here in the United States are here looking for “the good life” as we define it. I also agree 100% about the consequences of the creation of a consumer society and the military/industrial/prison complex.}

    Take away the “free trade” pacts, eliminate the ability of the multinational corporations to exploit, and viola; people can earn a living in their own country.

    {Amen, and why not find ways to inspire would-be immigrants to pursue a better life for themselves and their community where they already live. Physicians don’t drive cabs in the US because they want the hack’s income because it’s more than they can earn in their native land. They want to practice medicine here. I can’t help but think however that most physicians would prefer to serve the communities that they call home}

    And it really, really wouldn’t hurt us in the US to speak more than one language, and Spanish would be a good one to know.

    {Si Senior, es verdad. ;-)

    I believe, personally, that every nation (country…not sure of the distinction) should be free to decide how to control travel between one and another. (See how I avoided that whole Nation/Country issue?)

    I also believe most nations would benefit from a basically open border policy. I want the government to keep an eye out for enslaved immigrants…that’s illegal immigration for you! I want to be sure that what I buy to feed my family was grown safely, or at least to know that it is labeled by country of origin so I can evaluate what to do myself.

    If the US is in fact the land of opportunity then we will attract people seeking opportunity. We have a sovereign right to turn them away, but I think we would only be shooting ourselves in the foot.

    The drug war goes away the very moment you make it legal for consumers to grow whatever they choose to grow. If you allow for individuals to grow more than they can consume you will overnight create tens of thousands of new jobs as anyone with a thousand bucks goes to Lowes to buy supplies, sets up a room in their basement, and hire someone to arrange for distribution.

    Why aren’t you a Green again Deran? *L*

  52. Thomas L. Knapp

    “Without such laws then just anyone can walk into one’s nation. How would we be able to regulate our system without documentation of each citizen in a country.”

    Yes, the world will end if every inhalation, exhalation, ingestion and excretion isn’t part of a “regulated” system.

    You sound like a fine addition to the Constitution Party, Ms. Nightingale. I applaud anyone who brings greater definition to, and shines more light on, the Stalinism at the core of the CP soul.

  53. robert capozzi

    while the word choice of “regulate” is poor, I wonder if the Knappster believes that all non-anarchists are Stalinists.

  54. paulie

    There has always been, and always will be immigration. It is silly to think that after we are born here, we can keep everyone else out.

    True. Or for others, after we come here ourselves.

    The word “illegal” is misleading. Having papers or not is not truly a crime. It is a civil matter. And, in past centuries, there was no such thing as having to apply for citizenship or meet a quota. People just came.

    It’s not a real crime at all. No victim, no crime. The regime does not own the country, thus they have no business saying who has a right to live in it – it isn’t their private property. Private property owners do have the right to make rules for their own property, but not that of their neighbors.

    Also, connecting 9-11 to a need to close borders seems silly to be. There were not any Mexican suicide bombers on those planes.

    True as well.

  55. paulie

    I hate the whole “your papers please” thing

    Me too.

    Rothbard said that since all property is private property (as in, the United States has no right to “own” borderlands, highways, etc)–those people who OWN the property that is migrated on should decide whether it is ohk for immigrants to come through their property

    Fair enough. Now, do you really think every single property owner on the so-called border is opposed to allowing in “immigrants”? Every single one? Really?

    However, this takes place in an already-privatized libertarian system.

    Rothbard was for migration rights for a long time.

    Regrettably, he changed his mind towards the very end of his life in a misguided attempt to make an alliance with the far right.

    It never made sense in the context of his life body of work, using tortured arguments to justify his new anti-migration rights stance.

  56. paulie

    trespassing on private property–IS a crime

    Tell that to the ICE (ex-INS) agents who trespass on private property to round up so-called “illegal” undocumented workers.

  57. paulie

    Agents have found Korans in the desert, and have made arrests of people from many different countries including China.

    LOL. Why bother? There are a lot easier ways to get into the US.

    If virtually anyone can sneak through, and there are middle easterners that are indeed part of the mix, what stops terrorists, or smugglers of WMDs from coming here??

    Not a damn thing. You won’t stop that, any more than drugs or anything else.

    The only thing the US can do to stop terrorism is to stop motivating it by sticking the US regime’s nose into the internal affairs and conflicts of foreign nations by playing world police.

    Yes the Mexican border is connected to 911 terrorism, a fact that few are willing to examine.

    I’ve heard a lot of different 9/11 theories, ranging from the regime’s omission report, to Israelis, inside job…but I’ve never once heard anything involving the Mexican border. Where did you get this one?

    Maybe some of the ICE border thugs trying to come up with justifications to continue leeching off the taxpayers came up with while partying a little too hard on some confiscated commodities?

  58. paulie

    Why does it matter what ethnicity the illegal aliens are, Chinese or Mexican? And the Koran, so what? Would you be upset if they’d found Bibles (which they’ve likely found far more of)?

    Good point, other than that “illegal aliens” is a silly term.

  59. paulie

    As for the fence, it doesnt matter how well they build it–people will cut through it, run over it, go around, under, or over it. Barring that, they’ll simply blow it up. Furthermore, do you really want a double-sided, fortress-like, wall on our borders being patrolled with machine gunners and gaurd dogs? What if our government, like so many others, decides to use these walls to keep us IN?

    Excellent point.

  60. paulie

    If we abandon it to the open borders position you so forcefully believe in, the welfare system will grow exponentially

    I don’t think so. Many undocumented workers pay into the tax racket, but will never collect.

    When the US economy goes in the dump, they don’t get on welfare, they leave the US. This is already happening.

    Pretty soon more Americans may well want to follow them. At which point, see your own point above about the fence being used to keep people in rather than out.

  61. paulie

    I have a hard time believing that the Mexico border is that much of a national security risk…more so than the Canadian border which is MUCH larger. Not to mention our coastlines.

    Our country has “fought the drug war” for decades…and has lost. If you can “import” drugs, why not weapons…including those of MD???

    If you believe in a free market, I feel you must also believe in free trade, which would then mean…open borders…

    If you believe in human equality…I feel you must also believe in … open borders…

    I agree.

  62. paulie

    If we make all illegal immigration legal, that will lead to the Mexican drug cartels expanding into America

    As opposed to now?

    News flash: they’re here.

    They don’t just sell drugs – they kill people.

    End prohibition. Problem solved.

    I think we should send the army to the border.

    Not in my name, and not with my money.

    But I agree that private property owners can defend their property – if it’s their property and that of other willing property owners only, and pay other people to do so, as well as ask other people to contribute money or volunteer help. They can even call it an army if it gives them jollies.

    The drug cartels will be stopped from kidnapping people or transporting US guns.

    I doubt it. The Mexican army is deployed not too far from the border. They are also deployed on the southern border of Mexico. Yet, lots of people and goods make it past their roadblocks.

  63. paulie

    “If you believe in a free market, I feel you must also believe in free trade, which would then mean…open borders…

    If you believe in human equality…I feel you must also believe in … open borders…”

    Rothbard didnt seem to think so.

    He did for most of his life.

    He was right then, and wrong later.

  64. paulie

    It doesnt seem like you are argueing for prizatization, it sounds like you want to keep the borders and roads owned by the public in order to have “open borders”.

    Open borders does not mean that private property owners can’t bar people they don’t want from their property, it just means the regime can’t bar people they do want on their property.

  65. Trent Hill

    “Fair enough. Now, do you really think every single property owner on the so-called border is opposed to allowing in “immigrants”? Every single one? Really?”

    Of course not. In fact, I think certain people on the border would put in roads and public transportation systems that run to Phoenix, Houston, or San Diego. Im not for CLOSED border, im for Private Property borders.

  66. paulie

    Sending the army to the border violates posse comitatus, drug prohibition CAUSES the violent crime associated with it, just as alchohol prohibition caused ancillary violence.

    True.

    Also, it would make drug smuggling more profitable, because of the higher risks. Some troops would be bought off, just as some cops, dockworkers, customs agents, etc., are now; thus, trafficking would probably increase.

  67. Trent Hill

    “Tell that to the ICE (ex-INS) agents who trespass on private property to round up so-called “illegal” undocumented workers”

    You’re preaching to the choir. It is bad when illegal immigrants do it, and bad when ICE does it.

  68. paulie

    The Mexican drug cartels are empowered by drug prohibition in the US. It is a problem CREATED by government intervention. End the prohibition, the black market will collapse. and its associated profits will dry up. The drug cartels will simply break up. The American nanny state is responsible for all those Mexican deaths. Let’s not blame the victims, Mexican workers.

    Exactly.

  69. paulie

    You think an up-or-down vote would result in completely open and un-hindered immigration? I doubt it. I’d bet it results in somewhat moderate migration standards.

    Why should it be up for a vote? Property owners should only decide on their own property, not that of others.

  70. paulie

    For the record, Im all for legal immigration, and for it being expanded and made MUCH easier. This will eliminate the “illegal” alien problem.

    I would support that as a step in the right direction.

  71. paulie

    Of course not. In fact, I think certain people on the border would put in roads and public transportation systems that run to Phoenix, Houston, or San Diego. Im not for CLOSED border, im for Private Property borders.

    Great! Then we agree.

    Although, that does seem to contradict your other position – that the government should still enforce its border, as if it were a legitimate private property line, but allow more people in.

    Don’t get me wrong, I would count that as progress, but there would still be a fight to be fought on this issue if they stop, harass and search me, ask nosy questions and demand to see my permit to breathe/dog collar/owner papers every time I approach or cross this line in other people’s sand that they drew.

  72. paulie

    99% of undocumented workers in this country are here to make money; not raise cain or do crimes. They are up here, and not in their own countries, making money because globalized “free trade” requires there to be an underclass to prop up the short-term “prosperity” that the post WW2 neo-liberal economics bubble created.

    Take away the “free trade” pacts, eliminate the ability of the multinational corporations to exploit, and viola; people acan earn a living in their own country.

    And it realy, really wouldn’t hurt us in the US to speak more than one language, and Spanish would be a good one to know.

    I agree with most of this. However, I don’t think that the destructive actions of foreign regimes which drive their people to seek work and/or freedom elsewhere are by any means limited to managed trade pacts (nothing “free” about them, other than the Orwellian name).

  73. paulie

    What we have, of course, is not free trade, but managed-trade mercantilism. However, right now, the peaceful immigrant laborers are fleeing the sinking ship that is the U.S. The flow back into Mexico would be even stronger if not for the U.S. imperialist drug-war crusade putting that country in such harm right now. The immigration “problem” of the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s was caused by the central bank and their false boom.

    GE is correct.

  74. paulie

    The immigration “problem” of the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s was caused by the central bank and their false boom.

    And by the US installing and propping up corrupt, tyrannical puppet regimes south of the border. Of course people want to flee.

    That too.

  75. Trent Hill

    “Why should it be up for a vote? Property owners should only decide on their own property, not that of others.”

    And what of stolen property managed by the government? Should we have no say?

  76. Trent Hill

    “Although, that does seem to contradict your other position – that the government should still enforce its border, as if it were a legitimate private property line, but allow more people in. ”

    No it doesnt. One is a step towards the other.

  77. paulie

    Why have immigration laws? For security and sovereignty purposes. The United States is not the only nation with immigration and border laws.

    Individuals should be sovereign, not regime gangs. The only true security will come when we stop paying their protection rackets.

    Yes, lots of regimes have bad “laws” (edicts). Bad edicts under one regime do not justify bad edicts by other regimes. That’s like saying “but all the other gangs do drive-by shootings too!”

    Without such laws then just anyone can walk into one’s nation. How would we be able to regulate our system without documentation of each citizen in a country. Over-population? Crime? Hospitals? Schools? Environment?

    Great question! How would you answer it in regards to states, counties, cities, precincts, blocks…?

    Incidentally, some of these (“over-population”) for example are not even real problems. The rest would self-regulate in a real free market. I’m surprised that a former Libertarian would not understand this.

    Human nature wants to defy and rebel against laws, but God created laws for a reason…to protect humanity.

    Which God would that be? Both the Israelites and Jesus were “illegal immigrants” at various points. God warned the Israelites against having a king. Jesus said to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

    Perhaps I have the wrong God in mind?

    Reagan said it best..

    “We begin bombing Russia in five minutes?”

    Oh, sorry, go on…

    ”A nation without borders is not a nation.”

    Imagine there’s no regime; it’s easy if you try.

    As Europeans have unfortunately learned over the past few years. Italy is currently trying to end the illegal invasion into their country while many Europeans are now strongly raising their voices against the “union”.

    I’m against the union too. But “invasion”? What hyperbole.

    I am also curious how the word “Mexican” came up when responding to my letter? One of the reasons I left the two-party system behind was due to propaganda and spin. Illegal alien is not defined as Mexican! Illegal alien is defined as anyone from any country who criminally trespasses into our nation.

    Trespasses? So you believe the government owns the country?

    And for the record I am a capitalist, but free trade does not equate to open border. One can freely trade with another country while securing the border for the sovereignty and security of the citizens.

    Labor markets are an integral part of free trade.

  78. paulie

    Without such laws then just anyone can walk into one’s nation.

    Your first task should be to look up the word “nation” — you’re using the word inappropriately, as a synonym for “country,” which it is not; and more ominously, as a synonym for “state.”

    In regard to Kimberly, it is not a civil matter, it is a federal legal matter according to Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code

    Where is this authorized in the Constitution? Is your new party the Constitution Party or the “U.S. Code” Party? A law repugnant to the Constitution is null and void, which accounts for 99% of the U.S. Code, including this section.

    Save our State? No thank you! Abolish it!!!

    Exactly.

  79. paulie

    Ross: GE – a big problem I’ve been noticing lately is that a lot of people think that just because something is illegal, it’s bad, or that it is bad because it is illegal. That’s just not true, and people need to realize that sometimes the law is wrong!

    GE: Not just sometimes… But almost always.

    Paul: I would not say always. Some regime laws would still be laws under non-monopoly government. Just their enforcement would be different. But most, yes.

  80. paulie

    I hope the writer isn’t confusing God’s law with man’s law. Or does she think that our legislators are little gods?

    Apparently. She conflates regime, state, and country, believes it owns the whole country and everything in it, and is the agent of God. This is a scary view point, and not very freedom-minded at all.

  81. paulie

    The drug war goes away the very moment you make it legal for consumers to grow whatever they choose to grow.

    True.

    If you allow for individuals to grow more than they can consume you will overnight create tens of thousands of new jobs as anyone with a thousand bucks goes to Lowes to buy supplies, sets up a room in their basement, and hire someone to arrange for distribution.

    Not so much. The price would drop way down, so it wouldn’t really make any more sense than someone growing flowers or food in their basement under grow lights. The risk is what drives the prices way, way up.

    A pound of pot on a real free market would probably cost the same or less than a pound of tobacco.

  82. paulie

    CN: “Without such laws then just anyone can walk into one’s nation. How would we be able to regulate our system without documentation of each citizen in a country.”

    TLK: Yes, the world will end if every inhalation, exhalation, ingestion and excretion isn’t part of a “regulated” system.

    You sound like a fine addition to the Constitution Party, Ms. Nightingale. I applaud anyone who brings greater definition to, and shines more light on, the Stalinism at the core of the CP soul.

    RC: while the word choice of “regulate” is poor, I wonder if the Knappster believes that all non-anarchists are Stalinists.

    PF: I didn’t see anything in the quote from Tom above that a minarchist couldn’t have said just as well.

  83. paulie

    And what of stolen property managed by the government? Should we have no say?

    That would seem to be an incentive in favor of stealing. The more property the government steals, the more work it makes for its agents in managing it, and the more additional property it has to steal to pay them. I’m biased in favor of giving them as little to do as we can.

  84. paulie

    “Although, that does seem to contradict your other position – that the government should still enforce its border, as if it were a legitimate private property line, but allow more people in. ”

    No it doesnt. One is a step towards the other.

    I agree that it is a step. But it’s not my end goal.

    I guess it shouldn’t matter too much for now if our end goal is the same or not, since at the moment we would move in the same direction.

  85. Trent Hill

    “I’m surprised that a former Libertarian would not understand this. ”

    She is not a former Libertarian, I do not think. She just worked on Art Olivier’s campaign, which attracted many Republicans, Independents, Protectionist Democrats, and CPers.

  86. Alex

    I hope some of the people that have commented here are still reading. Never have I seen so many people talking about how to save the branches, while the root of the tree has been poisoned and being chopped down. Firstly almost all the writers missed Charlene’s point about the Q? over 9/11. Tip it wasn’t Koran carrying suicidal Saudis’s ( 9 of the 19 supposed high jackers turned out to be alive and well & victims of identity theft) but some criminals a lot closer to home, if you live in Washington or near W’s ranch in Texas that is where those responsible for 9/11 reside and have for some time. Tip 2 Bin Laden is dead. There is no big bad arab boogieman out to destroy America, the elected (some legally, some not) politicians are doing a fine job all on their own! Tip 3, Learn about FEMA camps ( why have they been built and what are they for) and why are publication like the London telegraph advertising stories about major cities in England the US, Canada and Mexico being bombed in June this YEAR! So for all debates about borders you can stop the 9/11 referencing right there! The real power in The USA is not in Washington but THE FED. The Fed creates money out of thin air – backed by nothing whatsoever – the US Gov. issues a bond and must then repay the previously non existent money/debt with interest thank you very much to a privately owned central bank with the money of tax payers!! See something wrong with this picture. THE FED controls the US populace with debt as slavery. The politicians, President included are nothing more than the puppets of their puppet masters. That is why Ron Paul is talking about abolishing THE FED & taking away it’s power and giving it back to congress and the American People. Left , Right it doesn’t matter as Charlene has learnt, The American people need to abolish THE FED if they want their votes to ever count for anything. As it stands Politicians are bought and sold and financed and to be sure once elected they serve their financiers not you the voting public!

  87. Don Grundmann

    ” I applaud anyone who brings greater definition to, and shines more light on, the Stalinism at the core of the CP soul.”

    Response : What a idiotic comment. The writer has obviously been produced by our public ” education ” system.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  88. Thomas L. Knapp

    Mr. Grundmann,

    When the Constitution Party deigns to:

    a) notice what the Constitution actually says (for example, that while it empowers Congress to regulate naturalization, it gives it no such power over immigration);

    b) stop conveniently reinterpreting the Constitution (e.g. “we support free speech, except for speech we don’t like — that speech, we’ll claim isn’t speech so that it’s peachy for us to censor and suppress it”)

    … then I’ll reconsider my opinion.

    I was not “produced” by the public education system. I tolerated the requirement that I participate in that system while learning what I needed to know on my own hook (and I’m not putting my own kids through that process — they’re homeschooled, and so far they display a far better understanding of the Constitution at ages seven and ten than the average adult member of your loathsome anti-freedom, anti-America party does).

    Regards,
    Tom Knapp

  89. Robert Capozzi

    Tom, sorry I was so oblique.

    I was riffing off your statement: “Yes, the world will end if every inhalation, exhalation, ingestion and excretion isn’t part of a “regulated” system.”

    As you know, I’m no constitutionalist. Yet, you seem to’ve overreacted to Nightingale’s “regulated” statement. Anarchists (except theoretical asymptotic ones) seem hyper-sensitive to any notion of “general welfare” and “domestic tranquility,” but I’d suggest that there needs to be qualitative tranquility before individuals or civil societies can flourish.

    So far in history, reasonably tranquil and sustainable social orders involve States, although of course States do a lot of UNtranquil things, too.

    But I see no evidence that constitutionalists or Nightingale believes that “inhalation” needs to be regulated.

    Perhaps you were overstating for effect? That’s my read, at least. If so, I returned the favor, challenging your Stalinist charge, wondering if you truly believe that all non-anarchists are Stalinists. I get the sense that some non-anarchists DO believe that. I find that view kinda silly, but whatever…

  90. paulie

    The more complete statement Tom was replying to:


    Without such laws then just anyone can walk into one’s nation. How would we be able to regulate our system without documentation of each citizen in a country. Over-population? Crime? Hospitals? Schools? Environment?

    I would think minarchists would likewise recoil at such a far-reaching appetite for regulation; I did when I was a minarchist.

  91. paulie

    RC I see no evidence that …Nightingale believes that “inhalation” needs to be regulated.

    CN How would we be able to regulate our system without documentation of each citizen in a country. ……

  92. robert capozzi

    pc, lessarchists recoil, too, at least this one does.

    but I recoil from labeling those I disagree with as Stalinists. there may be stalinists in the world, but I don’t believe that Constitutionalsts are “Stalinists.” I disagree with Constitutionalists on some issues, agree on others. I suspect you and Tom do, too..

  93. Trent Hill

    Paulie,

    It’s a cute defense to say they arent constitutionalists, either–but it doesnt disguise Tom’s obvious attempt to conflate Minarchy with Stalinism.

  94. Thomas L. Knapp

    Trent,

    I’m not attempting to conflate minarchy with statism. The Constitution Party is not a minarchist party.

    “Stalinist” was the closest analog to what the Constitution Party stands for, as promoted by Ms. Nightingale’s specific complaint, that I thought most readers would easily “get.”

    I suppose I could have called them Falangists and hoped that most readers would understand I was alluding to Spanish Falangism after its co-option by the Carlists and Francoists, but that seemed like it would be expecting a little much.

    I suppose it’s possible that you believe I conflate minarchism with all other forms of statism, Trent. Bob Capozzi, on the other hand, knows better. He was just trying to get a cheap shot in.

  95. paulie

    I don’t think there is anything cute about it.

    And while I concede that it isn’t exactly Stalinism, I don’t think government tracking of citizenry and regulation of population levels, health, education, and the environment qualifies as anything like minarchism either.

    Bob Capozzi agrees with me that this a vision that makes both anarchist libertarians and minarchists recoil.

    http://pauliecannoli.wordpress.com/2007/05/17/immigration-hysteria-being-used-as-an-excuse-for-rise-of-us-police-state-2/

  96. paulie

    Since people generally don’t follow links…


    “And he causes all, both great and small, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark” (Rev.13:16-17)

    Earlier we reported that the illegal immigration hysteria is being used to justify the construction of an American gulag, which has been the subject of plans for rounding up large numbers of Americans, not just immigrants.

    In addition to SS numbers, as well as walls such as the one Bushling wants on the border with Mexico, and concentration camps, police states are well known for requiring their subjects to carry their papers and produce them on demand.

    Immigration is being used as an excuse to implement this same system in America.

    Homeland Stupidity reports:

    Two proposals being floated around Capitol Hill call for the Social Security card to be updated with biometric information and for U.S. employers to be required to verify it with the Department of Homeland Security when hiring.

    Scared yet? You should be. While everyone was off fighting the REAL ID battle, national identification proponents were sneaking in the back door, arguing that the Social Security card should be updated with the latest technology to prevent illegal immigrants from working.

    Under the so-called Bonner Plan, citizens and resident aliens alike would have to obtain a new Social Security card containing their photograph, a barcode or magnetic stripe containing an encrypted signature verifiable through card readers provided by the Department of Homeland Security, and would have to present this card in order to obtain work. The plan provides that employers who fail to verify the card face fines, prison time, and would be billed for the cost of deporting any illegal aliens they may have hired.

    Of course, they’re still claiming that the card wouldn’t be a national ID card. But if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it certainly isn’t a sheep.

    There are also logistical problems to overcome before forcing all of the nation’s employers to verify a biometric card — given the nation has millions of employers, many of whom may not have computer equipment at all.

    “This is an exact example of why IDs are so ludicrous as a form of security,” American Civil Liberties Union legislative counsel Tim Sparapani said. “Do we really think the migrant workers are going to show up at the pickle farm and the farmer is going to demand ID and have a laptop in the field to check their ID?”

    That’s one of the problems that Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-California), who heads a key House immigration subcommittee, says she’s thinking about.

    “There seems to be a fairly strong sentiment that there needs to be an easy way to reliably enforce whatever rules we adopt and the biometric is something being discussed in all the House bills,” Lofgren told Wired News. “Obviously every small business isn’t going to have a biometric card reader, but perhaps the post office might have a reader since every community in America has a post office.” — Wired News

    The Social Security card was originally issued specifically in connection with Social Security, a questionable New Deal program which resembles nothing more than a Ponzi scheme and is near collapse. Since government always tends to expand if not kept in check, it’s become virtually required in all aspects of daily life. It’s not yet required that anyone have one — unless he wants a bank account, a job, or government services. To survive without one, you’d better be Amish, or at least prepared to endure a lot of pain.

    The Social Security card has therefore become a de facto national ID, and requirements for private individuals to verify it would make it a national ID, despite any protestation or policy statement to the contrary.

    Speaking of requirements, the so-called Strive Act is gaining traction. It would require employers to submit all the personal information of all their new hires to the Department of Homeland Security for verification. Anyone whose verification fails would have to be fired if they were unable to correct their records. DHS is currently testing the verification system, known as Basic Pilot, and has lobbied Congress to fund and mandate it.

    So, everyone has to have a national ID card in order to get work, because we have to be tough on those illegal immigrants! They’re bogging down the welfare system! Oh, wait, then why are they working at actual jobs?

    Of course, we all know that illegal immigrants are coming here to work. Some people think that’s wrong. They claim that people should come here legally, not realizing that the legal paths for people to come here have been constricted or closed entirely, thus causing the “problem.”

    The alternative, which will come to pass if these proposals go forward, is that many illegal immigrants currently here will go on welfare, more of the U.S. economy will move underground, out of the prying eyes of DHS and the Internal Revenue Service, dramatically expanding the “black” (free) markets, and we’ll all be tagged with a national ID card that we have to have in order to participate in the “white” (non-free) economy.

  97. Don Grundmann

    Mr. Knapp : Thank you for your comments. Would you please be so kind as to clarify the following :
    1) ” notice what the Constitution actually says (for example, that while it empowers Congress to regulate naturalization, it gives it no such power over immigration.” Can I reasonably infer that you support illegal immigration?

    2) ” stop conveniently reinterpreting the Constitution (e.g. “we support free speech, except for speech we don’t like — that speech, we’ll claim isn’t speech so that it’s peachy for us to censor and suppress it”)” What particular speech are you referring to that you would claim that the CP wishes to suppress?

    3) ” your loathsome anti-freedom, anti-America party ” Why is the CP ” anti-freedom and anti-America?

    I believe I already know the answers to these questions but your clarification would be most helpful and informative.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  98. robert capozzi

    Tom, sorry you feel mine was a cheap shot. It’s true that I’m quick to call out hyperbole as hyperbolic.

    Many Ls are small c constitutionalists, and some of them may well have an affinity for the CP. Neither’s my cup o’ tea, but I’m on a civility campaign, so when one faction is attacked with the label Stalinist, I call that out as a means to promote less stridency and more mutual respect, even when we disagree.

    Stalin was as brutal a killer as there was, so using that label seems highly inflammatory to me.

    If Nightingale labeled you and Cannoli latter-day Sacco and Venzettis (who were likely innocent), she’d get the same treatment ;-) This is a side benefit of being a peace-loving TAAAList!

  99. Ross Levin

    “Why should it be up for a vote? Property owners should only decide on their own property, not that of others.”

    And what of stolen property managed by the government? Should we have no say?

    Trent, you sound like a direct democracy supporter here…

  100. Thomas L. Knapp

    Mr. Grundmann:

    You write:

    “Can I reasonably infer that you support illegal immigration?”

    No, you can’t reasonably infer that. I don’t support things that don’t exist, and there’s no such thing as “illegal immigration.” Per Mr. Chief Justice Marshall, a law repugnant to the Constitution is void.

    “What particular speech are you referring to that you would claim that the CP wishes to suppress?”

    Haven’t you even read your party’s platform?

    http://www.constitutionparty.com/party_platform.php#Pornography

    “Why is the CP anti-freedom and anti-America?”

    Interesting question. I have to confess that I don’t know why the CP is anti-freedom and anti-America. Presumably because its members want it to be that way, but that merely shifts the question to why they want that. I can’t explain your motives for you. You can explain them if you like.

    I believe I already know the answers to these questions but your clarification would be most helpful and informative.

  101. Thomas L. Knapp

    Bob,

    You write:

    “If Nightingale labeled you and Cannoli latter-day Sacco and Venzettis (who were likely innocent), she’d get the same treatment”

    Actually, Sacco may very well have been guilty — but that’s beside the point. I am an anarchist. Why would anyone object to Ms. Nightingale alluding to that?

  102. robert capozzi

    tom, hmm, they were the most notorious anarchists I could think of. I could have filled the blank with any villain. Point is, you are NOT a villain, and don’t need to be besmirched.

    applied Golden Rule…

  103. Trent Hill

    “Trent, you sound like a direct democracy supporter here…”

    Im not. My foremost goal is to return the stolen property to the market. Until that time, it makes no sense to simply let ANYONE trepass on that stolen property. On the otherhand, im not interested in constructing a wall or anything–I just want to destroy the welfare state.

  104. paulie

    Until that time, it makes no sense to simply let ANYONE trepass on that stolen property.

    It makes no sense to put a thief in charge of defining trespass.

  105. Mort

    I met many years ago while we marched against the illegal alien invaders who take advantage of the American people. These invaders work hard but take advantage of the American egenrosity.
    Chelene is a true honest American who care about our country. Her goals were honest, sincere and dedicated for the protection of our country from the illegal invasion.

  106. Carol D

    There seems to be some GROSS misunderstanding here…Chelene is NOT and never has been against IMMIGRATION. and those who come here – without proper documentation, without ‘permission’ are, in fact, breaking the law.
    Immigrants who come here legally are made to go through health screening (so they don’t bring in diseases as illegals are doing); background checks (so we don’t have criminals coming in – like DRUG CARTELS, TERRORISTS, etc.!) Try looking up the requirements to come here LEGALLY! they must be employed, or have a sponsor who will vouch for them…they CANNOT come to this country expecting to be supported by taxpayers (AS MILLIONS OF ILLEGALS DO!), and if they come on visa, they are limited in the amount of time they can stay…and they go through more checks to ensure that they have not been breaking the law while here. I don’t know if this is still the case, but they had to learn at least BASIC ENGLISH and pass the “citizenship test” IN ENGLISH. they are made to PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE UNITED STATES –
    Those of you who think that people used to just ‘come here’ should read some HISTORY! don’t accept what schools teach now, because they no longer teach TRUE AMERICAN HISTORY – they teach “politically correct “MISstory” – teaching only those things acceptable to the left.

    Try learning some TRUTH! Chelene is a strong, Christian woman who BELIEVES IN THE FREEDOMS GIVEN US BY GOD AND GUARANTEED IN OUR CONSTITUTION! You really should try reading that, too! Until the Left started tearing it apart (and some, like Bush, helped tear it apart as well), it was called the single most important civil document in world history! WHY do you think people from other countries want to come here? FOR THE FREEDOMS AND LIBERTY THAT YOU CAN’T GET ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD!

    Stop name-calling and learn the truth! Else you are just as guilty of destroying this once-great nation as are our TRAITOROUS elected government!

  107. Kimberly Wilder

    —There seems to be some GROSS misunderstanding here…Chelene is NOT and never has been against IMMIGRATION. and those who come here – without proper documentation, without ‘permission’ are, in fact, breaking the law.–

    Yeah.

    Well, how do we look at a room, or a street, or a classroom and pick out which “immigrants” we ask to produce their paperwork?

    So, to be vigilantly hunting down “illegal immigrants” is to create a war – like the war on drugs – that infringes on the civil liberties of everyone and creates a general state of government watchfulness and oppression.

    The only people who should be concerned about immigration are people standing at the border.

    Libertarians want freedom. How can they set up a system where the federal government is going to make us have national ID cards? Or, where policeman or federal agents will be scanning the streets for people who look “different.”?

    And, if someone believes that the government is to be held in suspicion, and kept small, why are some people so holy about it all?

    Someone wrote:
    -FOR THE FREEDOMS AND LIBERTY THAT YOU CAN’T GET ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD!-

    If people are poor and black, they can’t get as much freedom here as they can in a tolerant country. If someone is a woman, and they move to a more civilized country like Sweden, they might get more freedom on a variety of levels than in America.

    Flag waving is stupid, shallow crap.

    To any extent this country is great, it is great because Americans fight for democracy, and make demands on government. Not because Americans waste their time fighting to keep others out. (Or, fight for what some anti-immigrant folk are truly fighting for – a simple world, that they can understand and believe they will thrive in, where everyone is white, or at least speaks English with an accent they can understand.)

    I said I was only going to say this once. Darned. Who started this thread again…

    ;)

  108. Kimberly Wilder

    By the way, in my experience, the person shouting the loudest about a certain group, is often the person hiding from that group.

    Like televangelists who get caught with prostitutes.

    So, I would venture a guess that Chelene is an immigrant or even an illegal immigrant in some way. Someone should check her papers.

    My suspicion is not based on racial profiling, or random harassment, such as when police officers might stop someone on the street who looks different. I have a specific and valid premise.

    Often the person who is attacking a certain group, is secretly a member of that group. Someone should check.

  109. Nate

    “…or at least speaks English with an accent they can understand.”

    I’m all for that. You hear me Texans? Learn to speak English!

  110. Bobby XD9

    Here, as elsewhere, those who stand against American soverignty produce only noise, obfuscation & ill will.

    Three million people come here ILLEGALLY each year. These very illegal aliens KILL 25 American citizens EVERY DAY with a weapon or a car. That is more than are dying in all the foreign conflicts in which we are involved.

    Illegal aliens are, by legal & dictionary definitions illegal aliens & they are colonizing our country. So many appear too dim-witted or blinded by some wonderful facination of government to realize it & help do someting about the problem.

    It is because of people such as Ms. Nightingale that all our children are not yet required to speak Spanish in schools as Osama Barak would like. Her efforts just may have possibly turned back the very illegal alien who could have come here, gotten drunk & driven over your own child, spouse or grandchild.

    It is too bad that so many who are protected by people such as this are so concerned about the means, processes or lables they find so offensive.

    What choo gonna do when they come for you…when it’s too late?

  111. Nate

    So of the more than 200 deaths per day by weapon or car, 25 of these are by illegal aliens? Even if that were true, it seems to me we should be more afraid of being killed by Americans. 7 times more so.

    And let me get this right, you’re messing with a guy’s name to make him sound all Muslim and Arab (ooooooo, scary, wtf), in order to claim he wants to force our children to speak Spanish? Yeah, sure, cause they’re all about the Spanish language in Arab countries, let me tell you. Next you’ll be saying the Mexicans want to force us to speak French.

    As for Ms Nightingale, her efforts could just as much have turned back the very illegal alien who would have saved your child, spouse and grandchild from being run over by a drunk All-American football player. What’s your point? And, might I add, if you want to make Muslims out to be evil, perhaps you should try and pick something other than drunk driving, as on a whole they tend not to drink alcohol at all, most believe it’s against their religion.

  112. CHUCKtheFED

    They don’t just sell drugs – they kill people.

    End prohibition. Problem solved.

    /…drug cartels and bank cartels have one thing in common.
    They don’t deal with unemployment well… they find another way to feed their own nhabits

  113. CHUCKtheFED

    Apparently. She conflates regime, state, and country, believes it owns the whole country and everything in it, and is the agent of God. This is a scary view point, and not very freedom-minded at all.

    …not what
    “he” heard
    “she” say
    at all…

  114. paulie

    drug cartels and bank cartels have one thing in common.
    They don’t deal with unemployment well… they find another way to feed their own nhabits

    Ah, so you don’t want to chuck the fed after all?

  115. paulie

    If there’s anything in the comments from Carol D and Bobby XD9 I haven’t already addressed above, please let me know what that is. Otherwise, refer to comment 117.

  116. CHUCKtheFED

    Ah, so you don’t want to chuck the fed after all?

    how does commenting on the recidivist nature of criminality lead you to that conclusion? While legalizing drugs may change the landscape, it will not be a miracle cure.
    (and my tag refers to THE Fed..the Federal Reserve)(bank cartel…see above)

  117. paulie

    Well, if they’ll find a way to feed their appetites whether we end drug prohibition or not, you are apparently implying that ending drug prohibition won’t solve the problem. Then, you made the same statement about bank cartels.

    I’ll note that when alcohol prohibition ended, the wave of crime it produced did as well. It was a number of decades before crime associated with prohibition of other drugs reached similar levels.

    So, some criminals must have found themselves unemployed, in less lucrative rackets, or working outside of crime.

  118. CHUCKtheFED

    I’m implying that
    to say “problem solved”
    only truly solves the problem of your argument
    and not the subject of it.

  119. paulie

    only truly solves the problem of your argument
    and not the subject of it.

    Actually, saying it does not solve anything. Doing it, however, would solve the problem.

  120. Chelene Nightingale

    Freedom!! Each of you that have written FALSE statements and assumptions about me are afforded the FREEDOM to write such defamation based on our Constitution.

    Thank you for confirming that I selected the correct third party to join! Based on comments above it seems that other third parties prefer propaganda and silencing of all dissenting opinions….two reasons I left the two-party puppet system.

    Finally, IMMIGRANTS are those who like my mother’s family entered this country LEGALLY. Criminal aliens are those with no respect for this nation’s laws although their countries of origin have strict immigration laws.

    All I read above is the same rhetoric I have seen hundreds of times before from the open borders, pro criminal alien crowd…nothing new. In the meantime, the majority of Americans share my same stance on the subject.

    Three polls released last week by Rasmussen Reports reaffirm that the American public overwhelmingly supports enhanced border security and strengthened interior enforcement of our immigration laws. The results of these polls further undermine the arguments of amnesty advocates who claim that the American people want “comprehensive” immigration reform.

    The first Rasmussen poll, released March 16th, focused on border security. According to the poll, 79% of voters support using troops on the U.S.-Mexico border to protect Americans from drug-related violence. The 79% figure marked a 21% jump in support for the use of the U.S. military along the border in just two months. Only 10% of U.S. voters oppose putting U.S. troops on the border to fight drug violence, while 11% say they are unsure. Strong support for placing U.S. troops on the border may stem from the fact that 82% of U.S. voters are concerned that Mexican drug violence will spill over into the United States, including 50% who say that they are very concerned. The poll also found that more than six in ten Americans say that the Department of Homeland Security should continue to build a fence along the U.S.-Mexico border. (Rasmussen Reports, March 16, 2009). The release of the poll came just days after President Obama and other members of his administration expressed reluctance to deploy members of the National Guard to the border. (See FAIR’s Legislative Update, March 16, 2009).

    The second Rasmussen poll, released March 17, highlighted strong support for local law enforcement of immigration laws. According to the poll, 73% of voters say that police officers should automatically check to see if someone is in the country legally when the officer pulls that person over for a traffic violation, while only 21% disagree. Furthermore, 67% of voters say that if law enforcement officers know of places where immigrants gather to find work, they should conduct surprise raids to identify and deport illegal aliens. (Rasmussen Reports, March 17, 2009). The poll’s findings came less than two weeks after House Homeland Security Committee Chairman Bennie Thompson (D-MS) questioned the success of the 287(g) program – which allows Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to enter into agreements to train state and local law enforcement agencies in the enforcement of federal immigration laws. (See FAIR’s Legislative Update, March 9, 2009).

    A third Rasmussen poll, released March 18, shows that nearly seven in ten voters support strict government sanctions on employers who hire illegal aliens. Only 22% say that employers should not be punished, while another 10% are not sure. Nearly half of U.S. voters support sanctions for landlords who rent or sell property to illegal aliens, while only 36% are opposed to such penalties. (Rasmussen Reports, March 18, 2009).

  121. paulie

    Three polls released last week by Rasmussen Reports reaffirm that the American public overwhelmingly supports enhanced border security and strengthened interior enforcement of our immigration laws.

    That’s why tyranny of the majority is a bad idea.

  122. paulie

    It’s not an opinion.

    now THAT is an opinion!

    Nope. The laws of supply and demand are not an opinion, any more than the law of gravity.

    Everything I wrote here boils down to the laws of supply and demand: for workers, for commodities, etc.

    No matter how much an artificial monopoly ratchets up its violence in the initiation of coercion to stop the free flow of goods and labor, the market finds a way around it.

    And always will, even if Chelene’s most totalitarian populist fantasies in #138 are put in place.

  123. robert capozzi

    chelene, while I’m not an “open borders” advocate, it should be no surprise that many want a “tougher” borders policy. hostility to immigrants and immigration has a long and sometimes ugly tradition in the US. immigrants make easy targets for know-nothings, a misplaced impulse if ever there was one.

  124. CHUCKtheFED

    here’s a hypothetical situation…
    let’s say that 80% of this country is compiled of
    “know-nothings”.
    Do their votes still count?

    my comment earlier, regarding people like Rush Limbaugh, as ‘rhetoric vs. reason’ suggested that the two are not the same, in fact (tough word today) they are opposites. I respect those that take the time to present reason, knowing full well that there is no guarantee of the listener grasping the concept, let alone the belief. Rhetoric just supposes that the listener won’t, and tries to shame them into agreement, whether by commitment , or not.

    If everyone is paranoid, then Philip K. Dick should be President, not Dr. Phil.

  125. paulie

    here’s a hypothetical situation…
    let’s say that 80% of this country is compiled of
    “know-nothings”.
    Do their votes still count?

    Do votes count to impose tyranny? No. No more than if 80% wanted to enslave African-Americans or exterminate Jews.

  126. CHUCKtheFED

    tyranny can be used to describe any manner of refused wishes…. and the majority seldom uses the phrase

  127. robert capozzi

    for a day or two there, 80% wanted to take those AIG bonuses, Constitution be damned! it appears that cooler heads may prevail. pitchfork majorities seem to almost always have lost the ways of peace and virtue.

  128. Thomas L. Knapp

    Ms. Nightingale,

    Far from wanting to “silence” dissenting opinions, I’m glad to see yours featured.

    Matter of fact, I have this thread bookmarked specifically so that in the future when I have friends who are considering joining the Constitution Party, I can just point them at it and let you convince them not to.

  129. paulie

    pitchfork majorities seem to almost always have lost the ways of peace and virtue.

    True.

    “silence” dissenting opinions

    Expressing disagreement =/= silencing.

  130. Kimberly Wilder

    Chelene said:

    –Finally, IMMIGRANTS are those who like my mother’s family entered this country LEGALLY. Criminal aliens are those with no respect for this nation’s laws although their countries of origin have strict immigration laws.—

    First off, Chelene, I guess I was right about why you are so rabid. Your family is made up of immigrants.

    It is like a smoker who quits smoking and gets all irrational about what other folks do.

    Or, a social climber, who disdains the class from which they came.

    Second of all, please do tell us more about your parents. (Since, you think you and Uncle Sam should be checking everyone else’s papers.)

    When did your parents arrive here? What year?

    Because, before a certain time, there was no such thing as “illegal” immigration. A person showed up, and, if he looked a little dirty, they checked his health or something.

    The whole idea of America saying “no” to whole groups of people coming through is only a modern invention.

    And, P.S. to the immigrant haters – heck! your whole shtick will probably be up soon. Because, with our economy in the toilet bowl, there are hardly people who want to come to America for work anymore.

    In Long Island, all the overcrowding and hoopla is dying down. And, people are wishing we had workers and more people in our economy. Immigrants are going back home. And, less are coming.

  131. Thomas L. Knapp

    Kimberly,

    Interesting observation. “Illegal immigrants” may well have been the only thing standing between the US and economic collapse for several years now.

    They’ve helped keep food prices down with their cheap labor, while at the same time paying income and Social Security taxes without refund or benefits, thus subsidizing the middle class welfare state.

    Now that they’re leaving, who are the Know-Nothings going to blame for our woes? Most assuredly not themselves.

  132. paulie

    Now that they’re leaving, who are the Know-Nothings going to blame for our woes? Most assuredly not themselves.

    Muslims? Jews? Drugs?

    Possible scapegoats are endless..

  133. Chelene Nightingale

    And once again, I want to thank each of you for continuing to prove my point. The malicious defamation of my character, the rhetoric without facts, the propaganda all being written simply due to my letter written above which apparently the Saul Alinsky dreamers oppose.

    The Constitution Party is only for those who like the FREEDOMS our founding fathers established for the sovereignty of our country and security for the citizens. Limited government and Freedom of speech, religion, and arms is not for everyone as apparent by the “New American” Socialists.

    “Expressing disagreement” is always welcomed in a free society, but defaming, lying, shaming, name calling, personally attacking, ganging-up on, and ridiculing one’s opinion is not simply “expressing disagreement”…bullying one into submission is attempts of silencing. And you have all selected the wrong subject for that tactic.

    Continue your “Spin” on my words to fit your own agendas, but fortunately the majority are not fooled by the rules-for-radicals crowd. Most Americans still love their Constitutional-Sovereign-“nation” of freedoms and want to preserve it!

    Finally, it is disrespectful to immigrants to compare them to criminal aliens. Immigrants work hard to come for the American Dream…they pay their hard-earned money, study, and pledge an oath to the USA. They obey and respect the laws of their new home. Criminal aliens coming from countries with strict border security and immigration laws disrespectfully enter our “nation” thinking only of themselves and not those they adversely affect.

    American citizens are losing their homes, their jobs, their bank accounts, in addition to paying higher taxes while criminal aliens take and benefit from the hard labor of those very citizens.

    LA County Supervisor Michael Antonovich reported that criminal aliens cost LA taxpayers over $1 billion per year (not including education):
    http://antonovich.co.la.ca.us/newsroom/releases/sep2007/RELEASE%20%20illegals%20WELFARE.htm

    Other counties are either deleting or considering to delete costly benefits for criminal aliens:
    http://www.fox40.com/pages
    /landing_local_headlines/?State-Budget-Cuts-Health-Care-For-Illega=1&blockID=240655&feedID=190

    And what about the well-being of American citizens? Immigrants and Black Americans are most affected by the mass criminal invasion:
    http://www.cis.org/articles/2008/sactestimony040508.html

    http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2007/05/illegal_immigra_36.php

    And to the American death statistic above…yes, absolutely Americans commit murder, but those are enough murders without adding additional crimes by illegal trespassers.
    http://www.topix.net/forum/topstories/TCLUBUF4TPL3ULSFT

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWUoljouQ1E

  134. Mort

    It appears that some folks like Robert Capoz, message 142 and Kimberly Wilder message 152 are unable to distinguish between legal immigrants and illegal alien invaders. Chelene is a supporter of illegal immigration and opposes the illegal invaders. I have known her for many years and this is the fact. It appears that both Robert and Kimberly do not have the ability to distinguish between legal immigration and illegal invasion.
    I do not know what state(s) where Robert or Kimberly are from? Just in case you are not in California, here are some statistics for you.

    1. California spends $13 billion providing generous free benefits to the illegal invaders.
    2. The Los Angeles school district has a major deficit of hundreds of Millions of Dollars and many teachers may be laid off. This while nearly 10% of the children in the schools system are those illegal invaders.
    3. The corrupt Los Angeles Mayor policies are to have Los Angeles a sanctuary city for the invaders. These invaders send their children to public school to be educated in foreign languages while the over all failure rate is nearly 50%. Eliminate the sanctuary city protection, deprive the invaders from jobs, eliminate the free benefits and the invaders will leave. This is happening in Arizona, Oklahoma and other states. When all these invaders are gone, we can teach in English and it will not be necessary to lay off teachers.
    4. For every one Dollar contributed to the California economy by the illegal invaders, it cost the state $3 in free benefits. Net loss paid by taxpayers $2 to provide benefits for the invaders.
    5. Los Angeles County spends over $1 Billion a year providing health care for the invaders.
    6. Nearly two thirds of the birth in the Los Angeles County General Hospital is by illegal alien invading mothers. The taxpayers pay for this.
    7. Thousands of legal Americans have their Social Security numbers stolen by illegal invaders. These invaders use the stolen numbers to get jobs at lower scale and displace American workers.
    8. Most of the dry wall and roofing workers are illegal who work at 50% of the prevailing wages and displace LEGAL American workers

    These folks are not legal immigrants, they are invaders and it is time to separate the two.

    All you illegal invader supporters who claim that they are immigrants, you are wrong!
    Chelene is NOT against immigration, she is against the illegal invaders who abuse the American taxpayers. This is fact. I know this from the years I have known her. All of you who are spinning this issue, you are simply wrong and uniformed. Do you know Chelene in person or are you just making false emotional comments? Can you be honest about this? If your comments are based on emotions, you probably can not think in a rational manner.
    Thank you.

  135. Steven R Linnabary

    Mort-

    Your laundry list of welfare benefits shows me that you are more concerned with “brown” people supposedly bankrupting the welfare state than with ending the welfare state itself.

    I suspect too, that you would be just as livid if “brown people” started getting paid a “white man’s wage” for hanging drywall.

    Keep your comments coming. You are showing the true colors of the CP.

    PEACE

  136. Mort

    Steve, you are an emotional MORON who is unable to think. You must have been last in line when god handed out brains. When your turn came up, there were no brains left
    Where did I say “brown’ or anything related, you idiot?
    I do not have any problem with any color. Just people who invade our country illegaly, reap free benefits and rape the taxpayers.
    I am livid when illegal invaders of any color take away jobs from legal Americans of any color.
    You simply are unable to think in a rational and logical way. It is all emotions and support for the invaders!

  137. Nate

    Mort, you said “Chelene is a supporter of illegal immigration.” Now, I’m going to assume from the context of the rest of your message that you didn’t actually mean that, but it still made me giggle. So thanks for the slip, Freud.

  138. Nate

    To clarify, Mort’s above statement can be found in #160 line 3, just so we can skip the “Where did I ever say that?!” issue.

  139. CHUCKtheFED

    First, I would like to thank Chelene Nightingale, for her visits and comments here. I thank her first, because she has not averted the white hot lights of interrogation pointed at her, due to her printed statement.
    I also thank the rest of you, as I enjoy exchanges, even the rhetoric, as long as there is still a semblance of a skeleton of an issue to apply it to.

    And I pose, what I hope is a related question. Since the dynamic behind ‘illegal immigrants’ actually touches all aspects of the “American Dream”, please answer me this if you can.

    Last week, there was a protest for the A.I.G. bonuses in downtown St. Louis, in front of the Bank of America. I attended, and still cannot find a single reference (after the fact) to it, even though 20% of the people there were either KSDK, FOX, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, or ‘other’ photographers. The union ‘sponsoring’ this protest was S.E.I.U. #1, which is growing by leaps and bounds, utilizing corporate raider tactics, and here is the point I am curious about… They are the ‘fastest growing union in the U.S. and
    are eliminating the “worker to shop steward grievance relationship”. To me, while this allows for speed in accumulating a constituency, it is now just another “Top Down” organization, with an agenda, that cannot be shown to have evolved from the voices that they claim to represent.
    Any imput?
    I realize that it covers a lot (more) ground, but hey… we’re approaching the 200’s, and NO ONE else is covering this story.

  140. Mort

    Nate,

    Thank you for bringing up line No. 3. I made a typing error. Here is a clarification. Chelene is NOT a supporter, repeat NOT suporter of illegal alien invaders. She supports LEGAL immigration! There is a difference between legal immigrants who are supported and welcomed by Chelene and myself. On the other hand Chelene and I do NOT support the illegal alien invaders who abuse the American taxpayers, steal Social Security numbers, overload emergency room, drive without licneses and DO NOT have liability insurance!
    Again, it was my typing error in line 3.

  141. paulie

    I’m going to assume from the context of the rest of your message that you didn’t actually mean that,

    Well, actually, she does support illegal immigration. As long as the jobs exist, workers will find their way to them, whether documented or not.

    The only choice is either to legalize it, or continue to fight a failed war on undocumented workers (just like the war on drugs, which will never work either).

    “Invaders”? These fools must have never seen what a real invasion looks like, or even been in a war zone or occupied country. And “take away jobs,” as if they belonged to someone?

    Someone should certainly learn English…and that would be people who misuse such common words and phrases so egregiously.

  142. Mort

    Pauline,

    You to are an emotional MORON. Possibly calling you a moron is a compliment for you.
    I made a typo error and admit it. You on the other hand can not think properly and are unwilling to admit that.
    Here it is again. Chelene DOES NOT support illegal alien invaders – this is fact. They are not law breaking invaders not undocumented.

    You may wish to refer to a dictionary. Here it is if you do not have one. INVADE – enter with hostile intent. The illegal’s do enter with hostile intent to steal Social Security numbers, drive without licenses, take away American jobs, abuse the taxpayers, get taxpayer’s subsidized education, falsify details to get rent subsidies, do not pay income taxes unless they use stolen or fake Social security numbers. By the way, stealing a Social Security number or using a fake one is a federal offense. I would call all these HOSTILE INTENT.

    At least I admitted may typo error and corrected it. On the other hand, you do not have adequate intelligence to admit that you are unable to think in a logical manner.

    On the subject of invaders, here again you completely wrong, do not know what you are talking about and are just spewing hot misleading crap. I know very well what an invasion is. I lived in Europe during WW II in a country that was invaded by the Germans. I came to the US legally. Pauline, you are full of it. Better engage your miniscule shriveled brain before you tackle the keyboard.

  143. Nate

    Mort,

    perhaps some of them drive without licenses because in many states they aren’t allowed to get licenses. And as the state prohibits them from doing so, they can’t go through the proper steps involved, including taking driving lessons and studying for the test, which could lead to some of those automobile deaths that were mentioned. Now, sure, you can blame the Space Invaders(R) or whatever you want to call them next, hell you already are blaming them, but it seems to me if you were really interested in cutting down the amount of deaths by automobiles you would want to rescind idiotic legislation that prevents responsible people from doing the responsible thing and instead forces them to break the law and motivates them to NOT learn the traffic rules.

  144. Thomas L. Knapp

    Oh my God! They’re STEALING NUMBERS!

    I’d better go hide 42 under my bed real quick so’s they don’t find it.

    Yes, illegal [sic] immigrants “steal” Social Security numbers. They shouldn’t have to do so in order to work for people who want to hire them, and after they “steal” them they pay the taxes associated with those numbers but never collect the benefits associated with the taxes … but hey, let’s not silly little things like, um, FACTS get in the way of a good Constitution Party control freakery tantrum.

  145. Nate

    Mort,

    I’m sure you’re a nice person who is simply very emotional about a subject where, around here anyway, you are in the minority. I think everyone here knows what that feels like. However, changing someone’s name as a form of attack is childish and doesn’t help you to make your point. In this case all it really does is make you look like a misogynist, as you seem to feel that calling someone by a woman’s name will be a great insult to them. Now, I personally am of the opinion that a name is something pretty sacred, and I don’t appreciate people butchering mine. However, I’d be glad to let you call me Natalie if that will help get you to calm down. Until Paulie gives you similar permission however, I’d knock it off if I were you. Those NOW ladies can really rough a guy up when they want to.

  146. paulie

    Mort has permission to call me Pauline.

    I’m not insulted at all.

    It just makes him look even more laughable. Not that he needs any help in that department.

  147. Nate

    I find the phrases SS and numbers reminiscent of a time in central Europe about 70 years ago. The SS didn’t have the numbers though, perhaps they were stolen by the fellows who did.

  148. paulie

    I find the phrases SS and numbers reminiscent of a time in central Europe about 70 years ago.

    Sad but true.

    Now, the country created by immigrants, which once welcomed “teeming masses yearning to breathe free” and held out an American dream of economic opportunity, has our own Homeland SS athletic supporters, eager for ever more checkpoints with thugs demanding “your papers, please” …militarized and walled borders, a la Checkpoint Charlie…and gestapo-style raids of workplaces and apartment buildings looking for those without a permit to breathe from the all-powerful nation state.

    Sickening!

  149. Steven R Linnabary

    You simply are unable to think in a rational and logical way. It is all emotions and support for the invaders!

    Well, Mort, YOU are the one that is getting all emotional about “saving the welfare state”. I fail to see the rationale or the logic to saving a failed system. And a system that is antithetical to the US Constitution at that.

    Being called a “moron” by somebody that is more concerned about saving the welfare state is delicious.

    PEACE

  150. Nate

    Paulie,
    I didn’t think you would find it offensive, you don’t seem the type. I did however mean everything I said, including the part about being a minority. Mort feels he is being attacked for his views. And while I agree that his views should be attacked, I believe we should make sure he knows that he is not being attacked. There are a lot of good people with a lot of bad views out there, and they say you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Of course most politicians have realized that you can catch even more with bullshit, but that’s neither here nor there.

    I do however reserve the right to poke good natured fun at people as well as their posts because humor is just plain awesome. :)

  151. SSave our SStatism

    Morton,

    Please disregard these emotional MORON’s. YOU are clearly MORE INTELLAGINT than they are. You’re post’s are filled with PURE LOGIC and absolutely NO EMOTION’S!!!!!!!!

    EVERYONE who know’s anything know’s that EMOTION’S are for FEMALE’S and they are INFERIOR. This is why MALE BONDING is so IMPORTANT.

    MEN calling each other by womens NAME’s is just so MANLY.

    I was in CUBA during the SPANISH-AMERICAN WAR. Teddy Roosevelt; now THERE was a real MAN.

    SSave our SStatism!

  152. Mort

    The illegal invaders should be here in the first place. They violated our laws, entered our country illegally and are not entitled to anything! They are not entitled to and must not be issued driver licenses. When these illegal invaders, cause an accident, which they do they just disappear in thin air and the victims end up with the damage and/or injury which they have to pay large sums by themselves. Why should law abiding Americans have to buy extra uninsured motorist insurance to cover the sins and illegal activities of the illegal invaders. Yes they are invaders and are not entitled to anything.

    As far as the stolen SS numbers, you may want to hear the problems this creates for the victims who had their number stolen. These victims encounter major headache with the IRS when they are audited and questioned ‘why they did not pay the extra taxes’. As a matter of fact, most of the invaders work for cash under the table and DO NOT pay any income taxes, while they collect generous benefits. The bleeding-heart illegal alien supporters never consider the innocent victims. It is all in preference of the law breaking INVADERS.
    Most Americans oppose any AMNESTY for the invaders. This is fact. The 2007 AMNESTY was defeated because most American objected to it and they voiced their views where it counts – the US Congress. It is only the pandering and corrupt politicians support the idea of AMNESTY.

    These are the reason why Chelene organized the various demonstrations against the invaders. She deserves lots of credit and respect for doing so. She is a real red blooded American. This is why I support her activities and did participate in the demonstrations against the invaders.

    Illegal alien invaders are NOT undocumented immigrants, they are law breakers who abuse the American generosity of hard working Americans.

  153. Jeanjeanie

    I don’t know what planet most of you live on, but reality isn’t the name. Illegals have destroyed the small farming town where I live. How do I know they are illegals. Because we are a small enough town to know who is here legally and who isn’t . We know all the families and their relatives. The gangs that are here now are mostly illegals, as the graffiti on my fence ‘vatos locos’ sings out their praises. The shooting two days ago, was guess what, an illegal gang member shooting another gang member. This is a town of 15,000 people with about 85% Hispanic and about 40% of those are here illegally. Up until ten years ago before this invasion, we didn’t have to lock our doors and walking home after dark wasn’t a problem. Not any more. The American Hispanics, two of whom live in my home, are outraged at this invasion. They want their town back, not the gangs, graffiti, trash, and drive-bys.
    I don’t know what bubble some of you posters live in, but it’s not reality.
    Maybe this is why most people turn their backs on third parties. I certainly wouldn’t want most of you running things. Ms. Nightingale makes more sense than the lot of you. Maybe you should listen.

  154. Mort

    Jeanjeanie,
    The invaders simply do not care. Paulie idea to make them legal is nuts. Making the invaders legal is rewarding law breakers, SS thieves, murderers, taxpayer abusers etc.
    These invaders destroyed your town, the emergency health care system in the country, the Los Angeles School system, took jobs from real Americans and fill 1/3 of the Los Angeles County jail. The horrible MS13 gang is mostly illegal invaders. Now Paulie wants to reward them for all the damage. I say SEND THEM BACK to where they came from!
    All the nuts who support the invaders, simply elect to ignore the real harm they create.

  155. SSave our SStatism

    You TELL ‘EM Mortimer!!!

    What these CRAZY INVADER LOVER’S don’t understand is that we are NOT against IMMIGRANT’S or HISPANIC’S or anything.

    ALL the problems are because these INVADERS are BREAKING the LAW!!

    You can’t just CHANGE the LAW because the LAW can NEVER be changed! Because they are GENETICALLY DIFFERENT from those other Hispanics who come to the U’S legally, that’s why.

    After all when they are born GOD selects the one’s who are supposed to be allowed in the USA and say’s they are OK, and the other’s are NOT!!!

    I say stop and search EVERYONE whether they look like an ILLEGAL or NOT!!!! Stop and search them SEVERAL TIME’S every DAY!!!

    Do POPULATION COUNT’S and keep everyone ON CAMERA at ALL Time’s!!

    And just so the guard’s can’t be bribed. NO MORE MONEY! The government will issue CREDIT’S to a BIOCHIP in everyone’s ASS!!!

    Because that is the AMERICAN WAY!!!!

    No more DRUG’S!!! NO more INVADER’S!!!

    Everyone will have to speaker MORE GOODERER English, like you and me!!

    LOT’S of government jobs and welfare for REAL American’s!!!!!!!! USA #1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  156. Kimberly Wilder

    Mort said:

    – 1. California spends $13 billion providing generous free benefits to the illegal invaders.
    2. The Los Angeles school district has a major deficit of hundreds of Millions of Dollars and many teachers may be laid off. This while nearly 10% of the children in the schools system are those illegal invaders. –

    It is very hard for me to have this conversation and not blow my cool and ignorance, greed and stupidity that will not only hurt undocumented children, but ALL CHILDREN in our country.

    If every child is not entitled to an education, and cheerfully given one, without asking for their papers, than that mean SOMEONE has to screen out the legal from the illegal at the school house door.

    That means making schools a BATTLE GROUND over resources. That places nice white children, and nice legal brown children, as well as undocumented children in the firestorm of adult law enforcement.

    I worked in an education advocacy center. I have first hand experience with families trying to get students registered for school.

    If you think that SOME children do not deserve school, than you have to figure out WHICH ONES don’t deserve school. And, that means forms, quizzes, tests and challenges for each and every child.

    So, not only is there no calm and logical way to sort out LEGAL from ILLEGAL immigrants, there is not even a calm and logical way to sort out ILLEGAL immigrants from AMERICAN CITIZENS. And, we should play this game with four or five-year-olds trying to learn to read.

    Insanity. Expensive, unnecessary and cruel insanity.

    Furthermore…what the heck do you propose happen to these children? Everyone states the obvious, that there is not enough money to deport them all. So, if a husband and wife are undocumented, working to clean your swimming pool, or slice your french fries, and they have children with them…their children are supposed to what? wander the streets all day? So, that America looks like the dirty streets of London in an Old Dickens novel?

    School is an excellent example of where it is just easier and cheaper for the government to give the service to everyone, rather than to spend the same amount of money with screening measures and/or harming the civil liberties of the people who are citizens.

    Now, I am going to try my best to leave this horrible conversation. It is tedious having an argument with intolerant people who would oppress children and the poor, in the service of their own prejudice and greed.

    Thanks,
    Kimberly Wilder

  157. Kimberly Wilder

    Well, here. I will feel less guilty if I leave giving a piece of information for wise people with the patience for these arguments.

    http://www.longislandwins.com/

    The above web-site has a lot of good research and points about the value immigration adds to communities. It is Long Island focused, but has interesting commentary and insights about immigration and arguments for cherishing immigrants – both documented and undocumented.

    (No person is illegal.)

  158. Jeanjeanie

    Wow, talk about putting your ideology before common sense. Or to put it another way, cut your nose off to spite your face. Some of you need to get out of that space you’ve vacuumed yourself into. You are so out of touch with reality, it would be funny if it weren’t so sad. Find out what is really happening out there, and not this fantasy ideology you think the world is. Just sad the ignorance.

  159. Steven R Linnabary

    Well, Jeanjeanie, I am well aware that opposition to the welfare state is “out of touch with reality” when attempting to talk with democrats and republicans and other welfare queens.

    But common sense tells me that if we were to end the welfare state, you shouldn’t have a problem with the free enterprise of labor. Or with free enterprise period.

    But that”fantasy ideology” that you mention is one where only certain people should get the fruits of other peoples labor, the welfare state.

    That is immoral. And something I want no part of. If we must keep bankrupt institutions, they must be made available to everyone.

    I would prefer to take our country back. Back to the principles outlined in the US Constitution at the least, or preferably to the principles enshrined in the Declaration of Independence.

    And if you think that is “cutting off my nose to spite my face”, well I tried to help you overcome your sad ignorance.

    PEACE

  160. Jeanjeanie

    I am not at all for welfare or ignoring our Constitution, actually I would like to see the former abolished and the latter followed. What I find unbelievable is that so many can ignore the need to secure our borders and want to leave the door wide open. Mexico has an agenda and some of you fall right into it. If my post hit a nerve with you, maybe it should have or maybe you just didn’t understand at who I was referring to.

  161. SSave our SStatism

    We need a FINAL SOLUTION to the problem of the ILLEGAL INVADER’S!!! Don’t just round them up and put them on a bu’s or train home – GA’S THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We need to TATTOO SS NUMBER’S on everyone’s HEAD’S and FOREARM’S so the invader’s don’t steal our precious SS NUMBER’S!

    SSave our SStatism!

  162. Big Chief

    I think those Save Our State folks are on to something. Why reward illegal invaders or their descendents? Let’s repatriate them all to their ancestral homelands, retroactive to 1492.

    I know there was a lot of illegal invading going on before that too, but we can figure it out ourselves without you people.

  163. CHUCKtheFED

    Big Chief
    …good point. Any thoughts as to the President’s statement in his first address to the Nation about ridding the country of division by tribalism? Personally, I think it is because those old treaties actually have more legal teeth, and interfere with the new TRADE AGREEMENTS of the future.
    Any thoughts?

  164. Mort

    Clearly Kimberly Wilder is not able to think in a rational and logical manner, rather it is all emotions.

    You use warped comments and none sense to justify the protection of the ILLEGAL INVADERS. What is this crap suggesting that the schools will become “BATTLE GROUND”. This is pure emotional stupid fantasy.

    If the invading, law breaking, invading parents can not work in our country, are deprived generous taxpayer’s paid benefits, employers who hire these invaders are sent to jails and subjected to very heavy fines, the illegal invaders will have no option but leave – go back. This is proven fact. Some illegal invaders are leaving the US because economic downturn and they can not find work. In Oklahoma, Arizona and some other states, the illegals are departing because they are denied benefits. When these parents leave our country so will their multiple anchor babies, we will no longer have them in our schools and Americans will not have to pay for their educations.

    Now you probably will use the lame emotional excuse/crap that these ‘anchor children’ were born in the US and are US citizens. You will be correct on that. However, when they free loading parents and their anchor babies are gone, these children will remain US citizens but live in their parent’s respective countries. The law breaking parents must not be rewarded with benefits or AMNESTY because they popped several anchor babies on US soil and taxpayers expense.

    As far as education for these children, they will be educated and cared for by the respective parent’s country of origin. SEND THE ILLEGAL INVADERS BACK – do it soon

  165. SSave our SStatism

    MORT you are being TOO SOFT on the ILLEAGAL INVADER’S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    SEND THE ILLEGAL INVADERS BACK????!!
    Why, so they can SNEAK BACK IN again?!?!?!?!

    No, we must EXTERMANATE these genetically inferior VERMIN!!!

    SSave our SStatism!

  166. paulie

    I am not at all for welfare or ignoring our Constitution, actually I would like to see the former abolished and the latter followed.

    So which part of the Constitution empowers the federal government to regulate immigration?

  167. paulie

    Any thoughts as to the President’s statement in his first address to the Nation about ridding the country of division by tribalism? Personally, I think it is because those old treaties actually have more legal teeth, and interfere with the new TRADE AGREEMENTS of the future.

    Good point. The trade agreements are bogus. Managed trade is not free trade.

  168. paulie

    Well, here. I will feel less guilty if I leave giving a piece of information for wise people with the patience for these arguments.

    http://www.longislandwins.com/

    The above web-site has a lot of good research and points about the value immigration adds to communities. It is Long Island focused, but has interesting commentary and insights about immigration and arguments for cherishing immigrants – both documented and undocumented.

    (No person is illegal.)

    Exactly!

  169. Mort

    Sure Paulie, “good research”. The proper description should be ‘SUBJECTIVE RESEARCH in support of an agenda’. Your words remind me of a good book that was published in the early sixties and I believe is still available (newer revision). The title of the book is: “How to lie with statistics”.
    Do you for a moment think that the report by Dr. Mariano Torras is not biased in favor of the invaders? I did not waste my time to read the entire biased and dishonest report, but did look through all of it. Note that the author, like all illegal invaders supporters DOES NOT distinguish between LEGAL IMMIGRANTS and ILLEGAL INVADERS! Like any other illegal alien INVADERS supporter the author groups them all together. Very likely he did so to support his biased agenda. After all look at his field and who gave him the UNAM award.

    The report is full of impressive colored displays, charts and graphs. However, where are the details that specifically identify the dollars spent on providing ALL the services to the illegal invaders and the income taxes paid by them? Why didn’t the author specify how much was spent providing education, health care, food stamps, rent subsidies, cost resulting of damage and injury of uninsured illegal drivers, incarceration of criminals, graffiti by illegal invaders gang members, etc. All these great benefits are paid by taxpayer’s. Great BIASED RESEARCH which is not worth the paper it is printed on.

    Your recommendation for this crap is simply misleading and dishonest! What do you expect, people to accept your statement “good research” and agree that illegal alien invaders are a great asset. BULL.

    ILLEGAL ALIEN INVADERS COST THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA ALONE A NET $13 BILLION A YEAR. The taxpayers of the state just had our taxes increased to support these invaders. Some estimates are that for the country, the invaders cost the taxpayers $60 Billion a year. Has Mr. Torras considered this in his misleading report? Very likely NOT!

  170. Thomas L. Knapp

    “Note that the author, like all illegal invaders supporters DOES NOT distinguish between LEGAL IMMIGRANTS and ILLEGAL INVADERS!”

    Maybe the author was a rational person, and therefore able to comprehend that the only difference between “LEGAL IMMIGRANTS” and “ILLEGAL INVADERS!” is that the former has some idiot bureaucrat’s permission to cross an imaginary line on the ground, while the latter does not.

    Libertarians don’t tend to give great weight to imaginary lines on the ground, or to idiot bureaucrats’ permissions or non-permissions to cross them.

  171. paulie

    the only difference between “LEGAL IMMIGRANTS” and “ILLEGAL INVADERS!” is that the former has some idiot bureaucrat’s permission to cross an imaginary line on the ground, while the latter does not.

    Libertarians don’t tend to give great weight to imaginary lines on the ground, or to idiot bureaucrats’ permissions or non-permissions to cross them.

    Bingo!

  172. sunshinebatman

    Do slaves “migrate”?

    Your link confirms the clause referred not only to slaves.

    ——
    Mr Govr. Morris remarked that as the clause now stands it implies that the Legislature may tax freemen imported.

    Col. Mason (in answr. to Govr. Morris) the provision as it stands was necessary for the case of Convicts in order to prevent the introduction of them.

  173. Jeanjeanie

    Paulie, So which part of the Constitution empowers the federal government to regulate immigration? Quote.

    The world did not have the population of today when the Constitution was written. Today we have a situation in which all countries are having trouble with illegal aliens. To ignore it is foolish. We also didn’t have electricity when the Constitution was written, so where in the Constitution does it say we can use electricity, or phones or faxes, oh my god, it doesn’t say we can use computers either. Do we need permission to use such things! Are we not following the Constitution if we do? That sounds pretty stupid, doesn’t it? That’s how stupid some of you sound. But then most of you don’t live in California and your neighbors aren’t illegal gang members. But given just a short time, with the path this country is on because of ignorance such as some on this board, they will be.

  174. Mort

    Paulie, why don’t you cross, illegally, the ‘imaginary border’ lines of some countries than apply for a bunch of benefits? You may try our southern border which is only a few hours from Los Angeles less than an hour from San Diego and less than 15 minutes in El Paso. If you are brave or stupid, have an accident there and see what happens. Very likely you will end up in their jail and they will throw the keys away. But, if the illegal invaders cross our border ILLEGALY, we reward them with benefits, free education, health care, constitutional rights and eventually AMNESTY aka by politically correct terms ‘comprehensive immigration reform’.

    You are correct about the idiot bureaucrats. However, if we are expected to ignore the ‘imaginary line’ at the border, how about if we also ignore their tax levies to pay for the illegal alien invaders benefits. We are a nation of laws, the INVADERS do not have the right to violate them, be generously rewarded for their law breaking and sometime criminal action.

  175. Nate

    “Today we have a situation in which all countries are having trouble with illegal aliens.”

    All countries. All of ‘em. Every single one. Do we have an illegal alien exchange program going on that I haven’t heard of yet, or are some of these aliens actual real extra terrestrial aliens?

  176. sunshinebatman

    Another quote from paulie’s link; confirming said paulie’s wrongitude, this from Charles Pinckney:

    The term, or word, migration, applies wholly to free whites; in its Constitutional sense, as intended by the Convention, it means “voluntary change of servitude”, from one country to another. The reasons of its being adopted and used in the Constitution, as far as I can recollect, were these; that the Constitution being a frame of government, consisting wholly of delegated powers, all power, not expressly delegated, being reserved to the people or the States, it was supposed, that, without some express grant to them of power on the subject, Congress would not be authorized ever to touch the question of migration hither, or emigration to this country, however pressing or urgent the necessity for such a measure might be; that they could derive no such power from the usages of nations, or even the laws of war; that the latter would only enable them to make prisoners of alien enemies, which would not be sufficient, as spies or other dangerous emigrants, who were not alien enemies, might enter the country for treasonable purposes, and do great injury; that, as all governments possessed this power, it was necessary to give it to our own, which could alone exercise it, and where, on other and much greater points, we had placed unlimited confidence; it was, therefore, agreed that, in the same article, the word migration should be placed; and that, from the year 1808, Congress should possess the complete power to stop either or both, as they might suppose the public interest required; the article, therefore, is a negative pregnant, restraining for twenty years, and giving the power after.

  177. paulie

    We also didn’t have electricity when the Constitution was written, so where in the Constitution does it say we can use electricity, or phones or faxes, oh my god, it doesn’t say we can use computers either.

    The constitution limits the powers of the federal government, not those of citizens.

  178. paulie

    But then most of you don’t live in California and your neighbors aren’t illegal gang members.

    I’ve lived in many states, including California, and several countries in different parts of the world (Russia, Italy, Bahamas, Honduras…). I’ve visited every US state except Hawaii, every Mexican state, every Canadian province, every country and major island in the Caribbean, every nation of Central America, several countries in Europe, and a majority of the 3,000 or so US counties.

    The neighborhood I grew up in had over a hundred murders in one year. I’ve lived in many other such neighborhoods in different cities, including in California.

  179. paulie

    You are correct about the idiot bureaucrats. However, if we are expected to ignore the ‘imaginary line’ at the border, how about if we also ignore their tax levies

    I already do, to the best of my ability.

  180. paulie

    http://www.mercatus.org/MediaDetails.aspx?id=22554


    Why restrict immigration at all? The Constitution and the laws of economics compel us to welcome all immigrants
    Christian Science Monitor
    June 7, 2007
    Donald Boudreaux

    Just in time for summer, the Senate is heating things up with immigration reform. The bill it’s debating aims to shore up border security and start some 12 million illegal aliens on the path to citizenship. Despite passionate disagreement, voices across the political spectrum concur on two points: They insist the federal government should do something about immigration, and they’re sure immigrants threaten American jobs.

    People assert these claims as though they’re self-evident. But they aren’t, as even a basic understanding of the US Constitution and the principles of economics shows. And that means most of the premises about immigration are confused.

    Real reform must build on the secure foundation of constitutional and economic truth – not on political talking points.

    The US government has been tinkering with immigration law for decades now. Surveying the wreckage – heartbroken families, an underclass of exploited workers, and ruined lives – makes it clear why the Founding Fathers refused to trust the national government with power over immigrants.

    That’s right: The Constitution does not authorize the federal government to control immigration. Nor does it say anything about illegal aliens. We looked for a clause with directions for ranking immigrants on a points system – another feature of the Senate’s reform bill – but we couldn’t find one.

    Sadly, lawmakers have repeatedly interpreted this silence as license for ill-conceived legislation. Congress began barring entry to the nation in 1875 with prostitutes and convicts. Soon, all sorts of people fell short of congressional glory: ex-convicts in 1882, along with Chinese citizens, lunatics, and idiots. Paupers, polygamists, and people suffering from infectious diseases or insanity made the list in 1891, while the illiterate were banned in 1917.

    The biggest spur to antiforeigner fervor is always the same: natives fear that newcomers will swipe their jobs. Take, for example, the 1889 Supreme Court case challenging the Chinese Exclusion Act. The Court upheld the exclusion because the Chinese had competed “with our artisans and mechanics, as well as our laborers in the field…. [Californians wanted] prompt action … to restrict their immigration.”

    Why immigrants increase wages

    It seems neither Californians nor the Court understood a fundamental principle of economics: the division of labor. Too bad they hadn’t read Adam Smith’s “Inquiry Into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations.” Published in 1776, it explains how prosperity results from more workers and better specialization.

    Suppose that 10 workers produce 20 chairs per week with each worker building a complete chair. Those same workers can produce many more chairs every week if they specialize.

    When one worker saws the wood, another carves it into shape, and a third fastens the pieces, the total output rises dramatically. Greater specialization leads to greater production and greater prosperity. Adding another five workers to the original 10 multiplies the benefits.

    It’s true that immigrants can temporarily reduce wages for Americans whose skills closely match theirs. But falling wages raise profits. And higher profits are the soil from which better wages grow.

    Seeking those superior returns, investors bring more capital – more machines, expertise, stores, and new firms – while entrepreneurs learn to enhance employee output.

    Specialization deepens. Workers’ productivity soars, forcing employers to compete for their time by offering higher pay. Immigrants actually increase wages in the long run.

    For proof, look around. The US work-force has more than doubled since World War II, yet workers’ real total compensation (wages plus benefits) is higher now than ever. Notice that Manhattan’s employees make more money than Mississippi’s. If hordes of workers depressed wages, New York City’s crowds would earn far less than Mississippi’s few. But paychecks in Manhattan – even for unskilled workers – trump those of workers in sparsely populated Mississippi.

    Given the talk about point systems, guest-worker programs, and fenced borders, you’d think immigration endangers America’s cultural and economic wealth. But just as the unhampered flow of goods and services – free trade – blesses participants, the easy flow of workers – free labor markets – also brings unprecedented prosperity.

    By contrast, schemes to control immigrants hurt everyone, native or newcomer, and not just economically. Customs agents often abuse immigrants at the borders, but they also interrogate, search, and fine returning Americans.

    Immigrants must produce the proper papers for bureaucrats’ inspection, but so do their American employers and landlords. And let’s not even think about the scary implications of the draconian Real ID Act.

    As technology and globalization continue shrinking the world, people and ideas move more quickly and freely. Political borders become increasingly irrelevant. But that’s fine because the qualities that define Americans don’t depend on geography. Rather, it’s their history of liberty, pluck, ingenuity, optimism, and the pursuit of happiness. Culture is a matter of mind and spirit. Why entrust it to politicians, border guards, and green cards?

    The ideal immigration policy for this smaller world would harmonize with both the Constitution and common decency. It wouldn’t deny anyone the inalienable right to come and go.

    This freedom perishes under current immigration edicts – and so do people. The US Border Patrol estimates that almost 2,000 would-be Americans died along the US-Mexican border from 1998 to 2004, whether from drowning, exposure, car accidents, or violence.

    And who can forget Elian Gonzalez, the tragic Cuban refugee? This little boy watched his mother and 10 other adults in their battered boat die at sea, largely because both US and Cuban laws forbid Cubans to immigrate here. We expect such tyranny from Fidel Castro – but from America’s supposedly free government?

    If Congress seriously wants reform, it might begin by returning decisions on immigration to the individuals involved, in obedience to the Constitution’s Ninth and 10th Amendments.

    But Congress will need to go further. Requiring taxpayers to subsidize immigrants’ healthcare, education, food, shelter, or anything else breeds resentment.

    Plenty of private charities will extend a hand to newcomers, not to mention friends and families eager to help their countrymen adjust to American life.

    In fact, so eager are these folks that only severe penalties discourage them: Maybe that’s why the House of Representatives in 2005 passed a bill threatening to imprison for up to five years anyone who “assists, encourages, directs, or induces [an alien] to reside in or remain in the United States.”

    What do we do about the 12 million illegal immigrants already here? Apologizing for their poor welcome is a start. Then we can hire them, patronize their businesses, become friends. So long as we don’t control them, and they don’t expect our taxes to support them, goodwill should prevail on both sides.

    Illegal immigration: a false concept

    Laws labeling some people legal and others illegal aren’t just divisive, they’re unconstitutional.

    Defending America’s integrity doesn’t mean more rules and stronger walls; it means seeing foreigners as free agents with all the dignity and autonomy we demand for ourselves.

    These people often overcome unspeakable hardship to immigrate; why add to their sorrows by making it difficult for them to become Americans? Or by forcing them to buy their citizenship? Surely, the federal coffers are bloated enough that the government need not prey on the poor and vulnerable.

    Remember, too, that these folks aren’t terrorists; they’re here to work. And many experts argue that the safest antiterror policy is to focus scarce resources on genuine threats rather than to try to screen potential terrorists at the borders.

    The federal government has controlled immigration for more than a century now. During those years, it has violated the Constitution to oppress immigrants. It has ignored economic reality by implying that immigrants depress wages and steal jobs. Both tactics pit us against each other while boosting the government’s power.

    Quota-wielding bureaucrats should not define the country’s demographic destiny. It’s time to let the free choices of millions of individuals determine America’s complexion.

  181. Jeanjeanie

    The neighborhood I grew up in had over a hundred murders in one year. Quote

    How long has it been since you lived there? Got out didn’t ya. And if you can afford to travel as you say, I can bet that you don’t spend much time in such neighborhoods without a good deal of security, the kind money can afford you. Oh let those underlings deal with the gangs. I’m to busy traveling the world preaching how great diversity is, but I don’t have to live in it, I have too much traveling to do.
    It is because of the people like so many of you on this board, that a third party is such a joke to so many. Pie in the sky, and use god when it works for them.
    Try to stay grounded, reality of presence if you can achieve such a state.
    And by the way, the power of this citizen wants our border secured, and I’m not alone.

  182. Mert

    “School is an excellent example of where it is just easier and cheaper for the government to give the service to everyone, rather than to spend the same amount of money with screening measures and/or harming the civil liberties of the people who are citizens.”

    Then we should expand free education and free health care to every person in the world, not just limit it to those who have the resources to come to this country. Its only fair.

  183. Steven R Linnabary

    Jeanjeanie: I cannot speak for Paulie, but I too have traveled all over the US, parts of Mexico and Canada. I did it by “thumb”. Hitchhiking.

    You need not be rich, or even well off to travel. You might not stay in the swankiest resort, but it can be better than sitting at home bemoaning your destiny and wallowing in pity.

    You might be interested to know that recent Hillary comments show that she wants to shore up the US/Mexican border with troops and stronger fences…to keep us and our products (guns) in.

    The thought of a Berlin Wall on our border scares the heck out of me.

    PEACE

  184. Steven R Linnabary

    Then we should expand free education and free health care to every person in the world, not just limit it to those who have the resources to come to this country. Its only fair.

    I suppose a member of the “International Proletariat” can make such a statement.

    But “free education and free health care” are not to be found in the US Constitution. “Equal protection under the law” is found there.

    So, you have three choices. 1.) abolish functions of government not found in the Constitution, 2.) Amend the Constitution so that only “certain” people can get so-called benefits, 3.) do as you suggest and provide “free education and free health care” to every body in the world.

    I prefer the first choice.

    PEACE

  185. paulie

    How long has it been since you lived there?

    In bad neighborhoods? I often still do.

    Got out didn’t ya.

    I wouldn’t say that. I was looking at the serious prospect of being homeless this past winter. In a way, I am in fact homeless, since I have no place of my own, but I usually have some people to stay with or a cheap motel; I very rarely sleep outside except when I want to anymore.

    But don’t get me wrong, I’ve been homeless plenty of times in the past.

    And if you can afford to travel

    I didn’t have to afford it. A lot of it was hitchhiking or, even more so, riding with friends.

    I did make some fast money when I was a teen, but I spent it just as fast, and I haven’t been anything like rich (or really even middle class) since then.

    I can bet that you don’t spend much time in such neighborhoods without a good deal of security

    You’d lose that bet big time. Clearly you don’t know the first thing about me.

    Preaching how great diversity is, but I don’t have to live in it

    It’s not a matter of having to. It’s the life I choose.

    wants our border secured

    It isn’t yours.

    You might be interested to know that recent Hillary comments show that she wants to shore up the US/Mexican border with troops and stronger fences…to keep us and our products (guns) in.

    The thought of a Berlin Wall on our border scares the heck out of me.

    Me too.

  186. Mert

    “So, you have three choices. 1.) abolish functions of government not found in the Constitution, 2.) Amend the Constitution so that only “certain” people can get so-called benefits, 3.) do as you suggest and provide “free education and free health care” to every body in the world.”

    I pick #1 also. But until we accomplish #1, we cannot afford to provide the benefits to everyone in the world looking for a better life. The Constitution does not require that anyone receive the fruits of someone else’s labor, therefore it does not need to be amended to deny benefits.

  187. Mort

    Mert,

    You are right on! Unfortunately the corrupt, selfish and pandering politicians will do whatever they can to get elected and re-elected.
    The American taxpayers can not ans must not provide benefits to everyone in the world and definetly not to the law breaking invaders.

  188. Jeanjeanie

    Well Paulie, I guess you don’t pay property tax then. Well I do. So you aren’t paying for educating the illegals and the prisons, jails and courts. Well I do.
    And by the way, I don’t believe much of what you write either.
    Is your computer on the back of you bicycle? Oh, I forgot, you have a laptop.

  189. paulie

    I guess you don’t pay property tax then.

    Count yourself lucky. Transient taxes are way outrageous. Cities just love to jack up taxes on motels (some 20%+) because very few motel residents vote, even if they stay there for years.
    Property taxes ain’t jack next to what we get hit with. I’ve even stayed at one motel that greylocks people out one day a month, with their stuff still in the room, just so they can keep jacking them.

    Then there is sales tax.

    illegals

    No human being is illegal.

    And by the way, I don’t believe much of what you write either.

    I don’t care what you believe.

    Is your computer on the back of you bicycle? Oh, I forgot, you have a laptop.

    Nope, no bicycle and no laptop. I don’t own a computer. I use other people’s, computer labs, etc. Last few months I’ve been laid up and borrowing a computer here, but it’s not mine and it’s not going on the road with me.

    Right now I’m ready to roll out of here, just trying to decide on the best deal out of several bad ones, and will go in the next few days. After that I won’t be on much if at all.

  190. paulie

    Thomas Jefferson forcibly tells us what the States retained under the US Constitution in regards to immigration:

    [A]lien friends are under the jurisdiction and protection of the laws of the state wherein they are; that no power over them has been delegated to the United States, nor prohibited to the individual states, distinct from their power over citizens; and it being true, as a general principle, and one of the amendments to the Constitution having also declared, that “the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited to the states, are reserved, to the states, respectively, or to the people,” the act of the Congress of the United States, passed the 22d day of June, 1798, entitled “An Act concerning Aliens,” which assumes power over alien friends not delegated by the Constitution, is not law, but is altogether void and of no force.

  191. BorderRaven

    If all people are born with equal rights; and opportunity is equal worldwide; and Liberty is mobile, then why must everyone run to the USA, to find them? Having been in the USA for any length of time, why can’t certain good concepts be transferred, to the countries, and villages globally lacking, and allow people to realize, there is no place like home?

  192. BorderRaven

    paulie, writes:”So which part of the Constitution empowers the federal government to regulate immigration?” Article IV Section 4, ” The States shall protect each of them against Invasion”

  193. Thomas L. Knapp

    invasion: “A warlike or hostile entrance into the possessions or domains of another; the incursion of an army for conquest or plunder.”

    I must have missed the Combat Landscaping, Amphibious Lettuce-Picking and Assault Poultry-Plucking courses at Infantry Training School.

  194. Jeanjeanie

    I guess gang with guns and drugs are the tools needed to pick lettuce. And considering less than 3% are working in the fields, the others must just be on vacation.

    This is an invasion. You just prefer to say asleep because that fits your ideology. Just pretend it isn’t there and it will go away. And while your at it watch some cartoons and pretend it’s a reality show, it shouldn’t be to hard with your mindset.

  195. sunshinebatman

    Jefferson was in Paris when the Constitution was written; and besides which, he’s refering to (pre-1808) aliens that have already migrated. After legally migrating, foreign aliens do generally have the same protections under state law as citizens, of course.

    (And PS hostile aliens are regularling plundering the treasury for welfare checks, medical are, etc.)

  196. Thomas L. Knapp

    “Just pretend it isn’t there and it will go away.”

    I don’t pretend that it isn’t there, nor do I expect it to go away.

    On the other hand, I don’t pretend that it’s anything other than what it is — human beings moving to find better jobs and better lives than they could find where they were before.

    I live just to the west (a mile or so) of the city of St. Louis. The neighborhoods to my immediate east are largely black and they’re the neighborhoods you see on TV when a crack house is busted down or someone gets shot in a carjacking.

    My neighborhood is 70-75% black, the black equivalent of the “white flight” of previous decades — lower-middle-class families moving out of the urban hellhole to live better.

    To my immediate west are what used to be lower-middle-class white neighborhoods from the earlier “white flight” period — factory workers who were able to make a decent enough living to buy a car and a small house with a yard instead of staying in the decaying urban apartment trap.

    Those neighborhoods are becoming increasingly Hispanic/Latino for exactly the same reasons — the people in them were in places they didn’t want to be, so they came to a place where they could find a job or start a business (it’s nice to finally have grocery stores that carry chorizo — got hooked on it in California!) and live better than they were living.

    The only essential difference between the new crop of residents and the “white fliers” and “black fliers” before them is that their “flight” took them across an imaginary line on the ground, a line which holds you in some kind of superstitious awe.

    Gangs? We’ve had gangs around here since we’ve had people around here, and there’s always been hand-wringing about what ethnicity the gangs are. I’ve been chased by a Latino gang in Hollywood, California, and I’ve been confronted by armed Bloods in Jennings, Missouri. Didn’t see a big difference between the two.

  197. Thomas L. Knapp

    Yes, sunshinebatman, we understand: You’re afraid the Spanish-speakers will crowd you at the welfare trough.

    Fear not: Per capita, immigrants (legal and “illegal”) pay more in taxes and consumer fewer welfare bennies than native-born Americans. They’re subsidizing you, so if you want the checks to keep coming you might want to quit whining about them. They might go away and leave you broke.

  198. sunshinebatman

    Yes, Knappy, we understand: You want to frolic with underage prepubescent foreign alien prostitutes.

    Fear not: Per capita, your figures are bullshit ; we’re subsidzing your underage prostitutes so if you want the boys to keep coming; you’ll keep shilling for the powers that be. And you are, so good for you.

  199. Thomas L. Knapp

    sunshinebatman,

    1) The figures aren’t mine — they’re from the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the Department of Health and Human Services.

    2) The powers that be maintain their “powers that be” status by constantly catering to the Know-Nothings; they friggin’ hate the truths that people like me speak.

    3) If I wanted to frolic with underage prepubescent foreign alien prostitutes, I’d save up for a trip to Bangkok — I hear they cater to those market niches. Nice try, though.

  200. Jeanjeanie

    Let me give you some figures on illegals and welfare. First we will start off with Los Angeles, then the country as a whole. This was less than two months ago:
    Thursday, January 29, 2009
    Antonovich: welfare costs for children of illegal aliens hits $450 million

    CHILDREN OF ILLEGAL ALIENS COLLECT
    $450 MILLION IN WELFARE IN 2008

    LOS ANGELES COUNTY – Figures from the Department of Public Social Services show that children of illegal aliens in Los Angeles County collected $450 million in welfare and food stamps in 2008 – an increase of $25 million from the previous year, announced Los Angeles County Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich

    Annually the cost of illegal immigration to Los Angeles County taxpayers exceeds over one billion dollars, which includes $220 million for public safety, $400 million for healthcare, and $450 million in welfare and food stamps allocations. Twenty-five percent of the County’s total allotment of welfare and food stamps benefits goes directly to the children of illegal aliens born in the United States.

    “Illegal immigration continues to have a devastating impact on Los Angeles County taxpayers,” said Antonovich. “The total cost for illegal immigrants to County taxpayers exceeds $1 billion a year – not including the millions of dollars for education.”

    Whites outnumber the other races, but a higher percentage of Latinos and blacks receive welfare. 38% of welfare recipients are white, 36% of welfare recipients are black. Whites outnumber blacks four to one; do a little math, and you’ll find that 36 out of 100 blacks receive welfare, but only 9.5 out of 100 whites receive welfare.
    • Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.

    • Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

    • With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.

    • On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.

    • Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.

    • If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.

    • Costs increase dramatically because unskilled immigrants with legal status — what most illegal aliens would become — can access government programs, but still tend to make very modest tax payments.

    • Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent.

    • The fact that legal immigrants with few years of schooling are a large fiscal drain does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a net drain — many legal immigrants are highly skilled.

    • The vast majority of illegals hold jobs. Thus the fiscal deficit they create for the federal government is not the result of an unwillingness to work.

    • The results of this study are consistent with a 1997 study by the National Research Council, which also found that immigrants’ education level is a key determinant of their fiscal impact.
    http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

    1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year. http:

    2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

    3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

    4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English! http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.html

    5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

    6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

    7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

    8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare & social services by the American taxpayers. http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html

    9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

    10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that’s two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html

    11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroine and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border. Homeland Security Report: http://tinyurl.com/t9sht “>http://tinyurl.com/t9sht>

    12. The National Policy Institute “estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period.”

    http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf

    13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin. http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm

    14. “The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States “. http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml
    The total cost is a whopping $ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR

  201. Jeanjeanie

    Thursday, January 29, 2009
    Antonovich: welfare costs for children of illegal aliens hits $450 million

    CHILDREN OF ILLEGAL ALIENS COLLECT
    $450 MILLION IN WELFARE IN 2008

    LOS ANGELES COUNTY – Figures from the Department of Public Social Services show that children of illegal aliens in Los Angeles County collected $450 million in welfare and food stamps in 2008 – an increase of $25 million from the previous year, announced Los Angeles County Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich

    Annually the cost of illegal immigration to Los Angeles County taxpayers exceeds over one billion dollars, which includes $220 million for public safety, $400 million for healthcare, and $450 million in welfare and food stamps allocations. Twenty-five percent of the County’s total allotment of welfare and food stamps benefits goes directly to the children of illegal aliens born in the United States.

    “Illegal immigration continues to have a devastating impact on Los Angeles County taxpayers,” said Antonovich. “The total cost for illegal immigrants to County taxpayers exceeds $1 billion a year – not including the millions of dollars for education.”

  202. Jeanjeanie

    Whites outnumber the other races, but a higher percentage of Latinos and blacks receive welfare. 38% of welfare recipients are white, 36% of welfare recipients are black. Whites outnumber blacks four to one; do a little math, and you’ll find that 36 out of 100 blacks receive welfare, but only 9.5 out of 100 whites receive welfare.
    • Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.

    • Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

    • With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.

    • On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.

    • Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.

    • If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.

    • Costs increase dramatically because unskilled immigrants with legal status — what most illegal aliens would become — can access government programs, but still tend to make very modest tax payments.

    • Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent.

    • The fact that legal immigrants with few years of schooling are a large fiscal drain does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a net drain — many legal immigrants are highly skilled.

    • The vast majority of illegals hold jobs. Thus the fiscal deficit they create for the federal government is not the result of an unwillingness to work.

    • The results of this study are consistent with a 1997 study by the National Research Council, which also found that immigrants’ education level is a key determinant of their fiscal impact.
    http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

  203. Jeanjeanie

    And in case you want some more info:
    1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year. http:

    2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

    3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

    4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English! http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.html

    5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

    6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

    7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

    8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare & social services by the American taxpayers. http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html

    9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

    10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that’s two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html

    11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroine and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border. Homeland Security Report: http://tinyurl.com/t9sht “>http://tinyurl.com/t9sht>

    12. The National Policy Institute “estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period.”

    http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf

    13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin. http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm

    14. “The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States “. http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml
    The total cost is a whopping $ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR

  204. Nate

    Jeanjeanie,

    your education level, at least in the area of math and logics, is abysmal. Perhaps you should consider leaving the country to reduce the fiscal drain. You wrote:

    “38% of welfare recipients are white, 36% of welfare recipients are black. Whites outnumber blacks four to one; do a little math, and you’ll find that 36 out of 100 blacks receive welfare, but only 9.5 out of 100 whites receive welfare.”

    With the numbers given, you need a leap of faith, rather than math, to assert any of the conclusions you’ve leapt to. 36% of ‘A’s are ‘B’s has never and will never imply that 36 out of 100 ‘B’s are ‘A’s. Either your math skill is lacking, you have yet to grasp the concept of logic, or you are purposely lying and trying to deceive.

  205. Mort

    229 Thomas L. Knapp // Mar 27, 2009 at 5:14 am

    invasion: “A warlike or hostile entrance into the possessions or domains of another; the incursion of an army for conquest or plunder.”

    I must have missed the Combat Landscaping, Amphibious Lettuce-Picking and Assault Poultry-Plucking courses at Infantry Training School.

    *************************

    The illegal invaders steal Social Security numbers, murder American (remember young Jamiel in Los Angeles, father and 3 sons in San Francisco and many more), 30% of the inmates in the Los Angeles County jail are illegal invaders, they collect food stamps which is illegal for invaders, they get section 8 housing while American veterans are on the streets.
    Sure, the illegal alien invaders are a real nice bunch. Hell no! Send the SLIMES back to where they came from.

  206. Jeanjeanie

    No it was just a bad cut and paste. It was originally referring to the population as a whole. I don’t have as much time to mess with you as I would like to.

  207. Steven R Linnabary

    Obviously the “Constitution Party” is less concerned with our governments unconstitutional programs and more with the race and ethnicity of those getting the benefits of such.

    Keep your comments coming. I can steer people to this thread if they doubt it.

    PEACE

  208. Mort

    Sure, the illegal alien invaders are not problem – what a joke.
    They break our laws, invade our country and demand AMNESTY.

    Now lets see.

    1. They violate our sovereignty, break our laws and enter illegally
    2. Once here and work, they steal the Social Security number from innocent American.
    3. If they do not steal a Social Security number, they get a forged fake one.
    4. They work for cash, get paid under the table and do not pay any income tax.
    5. They lie and get food stamps that they are not entitled to.
    6. They lie get section 8, taxpayer subsidized housing while there is not enought for American veterans who can not get it.
    7. They flood, ruin and abuse the medical emergency rooms.
    8. They drive without driver licenses and without liability insurance. When they cause an accident and inure people, they disappear while the victim is stuck with the bills.
    9. They send their multiple kids to the public school and demand that they be taught on their native language. The cost per student approximately $12,00.00 a year (Los Angeles). Free loading on the American taxpayers because the invaders did not pay any income taxes. Yes they probably do pay sales tax when they buy stuff – big deal.
    10. They demonstrate, provoke the police by throwing items at them and than cry foul that they have been discriminated.
    11. Take American jobs because they are willing to work at lower wages.
    12. Last but not least, the money they earn goes out of the country and does not stay in our economy.

    Folks, these are undeniable facts. This invaders cost the American taxpayers Billions and Billions of Dollars every year. The ‘frosting on the cake’ is that the corrupt, pandering politicians want to reward them with AMNESTY. HELL NO. SEND THEM BACK!

  209. Donald Raymond Lake

    Thx to all whom sent good wishes concerning my recent surgery. Went relatively well.

    Update of California’s non existent [“send money, send money”] Save Our State. Not one mention in Southern California/ Inland Empire media —-still! Not one addition to its own web site, including empty ‘Links’ page.

    If they were out of Texas, it would be “All Hat, No Cattle!”

  210. Kim Jong Il

    In North Korea, we have very strict border control. We catch you coming in or out without permission, you get shot.

  211. SSave our SStatism

    “Yes, the state quakes whenever someone parrots HHS propaganda.”

    Holy smokes Batman, you’re right! The state HATES it when someone parrots Heimland Security propaganda.

  212. SSave our SStatism

    Kim Jong Il,

    I think your North Korean policies are too soft. I say skin ‘em alive and boil ‘em! The INVADERSS are stealing our PRECIOUSS SS numberss!!!

  213. Bonfire

    With the exception of some bonafide Americans posting in here I thought I was back in that dive change.org
    Most of these sheeple are brats or unstable personalities on a keyboard playing games the others are socialist and communist opportunists that hijacked a Welcome to Chelene Nightingale to her new political party.
    I doubt you bottom feeders have read the Constitution much less have any loyalties to America. You owe this patriot an apology for this smear campaign. Now go slither back to your appropriate party and feed off each other. You waste our time.
    I am proud of this American patriot.
    Thank you Chelene for all that you do for our country. Bravo and congratulations on joining the Constitutional Party
    :)

  214. SSave our SStatism

    “I doubt you bottom feeders have read the Constitution much less have any loyalties to America.”

    You are absolutely right Bonfire!

    These bottom feeding sheeple who are not loyal to the Constitution should be drawn and quartered! Then you can put what’s left of them on trial afterwards.

    SSave our SStatism

  215. libertariangirl

    I dont think the issue is debating who included what charges against Angela and where they put them , but that the whole debacle is prominent news in a State Party publication.

    The place for dealing with it was the LNC meeting , the proper place for voicing anger and dissent would , be blogs , email groups and newsletters/websites owned by individuals and other groups etc.

    I dont see why leadership drama,personality/factional battles and offensive pictures of longtime members are being pawned off as news.
    Transparency isnt the issue here for me , its whether or not this dirty laundry needs advertising.
    arent there enuf other important LP things CF could report on . why do members need to read such ugliness? why does a pic of Aaron Starr , that he finds insulting , need to be reprinted in an official Party newsletter?

    does Tom think its going to perhaps sway people to a side who may be delegates somewhere or is he trying to humiliate AAron and others .
    It seems hypocritical to scream what a waste of time the LNC pursued with the Discipline of Angela and then to waste more time and space carrying the drama on longer .

    If I were a reader it would backfire because it would turn me off to have such nonsense where relevant news should be .

    Its like tabloid content , and that leads to lessened credibility not to mention its embarrassing . what if there are folks on the brink of leaving for whatever or new folks wanting to join but apprehensive , seeing 0 story like that may turn them off bigtime. many folks already think we spin our wheels in baseless arguments

  216. pete

    So we have a new member. I’d welcome you to the party ms Nightingale, but it looks like you’ve already met the unofficial welcoming committee. I have been recieving some of your press releases and other mail for the better part of a year or more, and I always wondered about the closing at the bottom. It reads
    “God Forgive America”
    Chelene Nightingale

    Can you explain this to me?

  217. Larry Breazeale

    I think it is great that Chelene Nightingale is our candidate for Governor in California, running on the AMERICAN INDEPENDENT PARTY
    (California’s CONSTITUTION PARTY affiliate).

    The “socialistic Democrats” and phoney “NEOCON” Republicans will nominate the usual knucklehead ‘opportunists’, while the California voters will have a REAL CHOICE in voting for Chelene. When the voters get mad enough, they WILL respond at the ballot box.

    Whomever the GOP picks as their Governor candidate, I assure you it will be another phoney conservative “NEOCON” political opportunist, that will NOT put “AMERICA FIRST”, or put “CALIFORNIA FIRST”.

    The “power elite” CFR (Council on Foreign Relations) controls the “leadership” of BOTH the democrat & republican parties.

    It is not impossible for a THIRD PARTY to win an election, despite the propoganda “B.S.” you hear on the state run media or “neocons”.

    ABE LINCOLN did it! In 1860, he won the presidential election by only 38% of the vote in a three way race! He was the new THIRD PARTY candidate at the time as a republican. The Whigs & democrats were the two major parties at the time. The WHIGS had their head up their rear end on the SLAVERY issue, to their own demise!

    HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF! THIS TIME…..
    the democrats & republicans have their head up their rear ends on SEVERAL ISSUES and ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION & BORDER SECURITY is just one of them!

    JUAN McAMNESTY McCAIN (and PALIN) and OBAMANATION were all terrible candidates that have no intention of protecting the Constitution. If our candidate CHUCK BALDWIN had been fairly included in the Presidential Debates with the other candidates….it would of been all over for the “power elite” .
    In 2010, the Constitution party and it’s other state affiliates are running candidates in every state for congressional and statewide offices.
    IT IS ALL PART OF THE RON PAUL REVOLUTION. GOD BLESS RON PAUL, CHUCK BALDWIN and CHELENE NIGHTINGALE. -Larry Breazeale, Msgt. (ret.) USAF Security Forces, Vietnam/Desert Storm veteran, Nat. Chrm. National Veterans Coalition,of the Constitution Party(www.nvets.org) and Deputy Sheriff ‘retired’, 27 yrs.

  218. Joseph Turner

    Well she ruined save our state I am sure she could do the same for the state of CA if she had a snowballs’s chance in Hell of getting elected, which she doesn’t.

  219. Donald Raymond Lake

    Larry Breazeale: Ah, a little review of American History there, may be only three groups got electorial college tallies, but pretty much four way contest of political parties ………

    Just keeping you honest, which you are unable to do in abused veterans issues, you reprobate!

  220. paulie

    rofl.

    But seriously,

    Once a wall is built, it is entirely likely it will be used to try to prevent Americans from leaving in the future.

  221. mdh

    They’ve found Koreans in the desert? My Lord, Sweet Jesus, we must lock those borders down right now to prevent such unlawful littering!

  222. paulie

    Koreans? I thought it was Korans. That is troubling.

    Are they south Koreans, or North?

    With their privately owned nukes, they can be a real menace, unlike those government monopolized nukes.

  223. Larry Breazeale

    Everyone , please be advised,
    ‘ON BEHALF’ of the NATIONAL VETERANS COALITION of the national CONSTITUTION PARTY (official veterans outreach for the Constitution party…www.nvets.org)”WE”, as veterans, families & friends of veterans,nationwide, ENDORSE the American Independent Party candidacy of CHELENE NIGHTINGALE for California Governor 2010, very proudly. Let’s TAKE BACK THE GOLDEN STATE! NIGHTINGALE FOR GOVERNOR!
    -Larry Breazeale, Msgt. (ret.) USAF,
    Nat. Chrm. NVC/CP
    Deputy Sheriff retired,
    “Long Time” registered American Independent Party (Calif.) voter” , since 1972 ! PROUDLY!

  224. paulie

    Yeah Larry, you said that already.

    By the way, what do you want to “TAKE BACK THE GOLDEN STATE!” to – the 19th century?

  225. GO FOR IT NIGHTINGALE

    I’ll tell you about illegals, The illegals come in buy a house with welfare money, several families. Actually collecting several paychecks of welfare money, have babies to become US citizens and uses the hospitals for free that WE THE PEOPLE PAY TAXES TOWARDS. Carry MEXICAN FLAGS NOT AMERICAN FLAGS in the USA. They work NOT PAYING TAXES and then they move back home and buy property in Mexico and live like kings. YOU PEOPLE GO TRY THAT IN MEXICO. Non-mexican cannot own property in mexico and if you did in Mexico when they do here. I am sure you will love being in their Jails.
    I have seen writings all over public walls that says Gringo’s get out of CA. MEXICALIFORNIA.

    I hope Miss Nightingale wins, I had hoped Art Oliver would win.

  226. paulie

    Wow. You really didn’t read any of the preceding discussion, did you? Might have saved you from typing that tripe.

  227. patriot1

    And in the end, the love you take..is equal to…the love you make~

    Funny how we “humans” spend our time while waiting to expire~

    peace

  228. Mark Seidenberg

    Reply to Larry Breazeale post 269. It was on
    June 27, 2008, that the State Central Committee
    of the American Independent Party (the committee that controls the affiliations of the
    American Independent Party) voted to affiliate
    with the America’s Independent Party of Fenton.
    Michigan. The Constitution Party was in the past history of the party. AIP has moved on to
    a new affiliation.

    Sincerely, Mark Seidenberg, Vice Chairman,
    American Independent Party, & Executive Committeeman, America’s Independent Party.

    By a letter dated January 10, 2006, from Chairman Nancy to the California Secratary of State disinformation was provided that the State
    Central Committee voted in the period of January 1 to January 10, 2006 to act under S.B.
    28, thereby having a semi-open primary. The
    disinformation was based on the fact the State
    Central Committee did not meet at anytime during that period.

    It is now 2009, I am informed that several persons plan to run for Governor on the AIP
    ticket in 2010. Larry has been registered in
    the party a long time. I have not, I only been
    registered in the party since 2004.

    One project the AIP plan to make as its major
    project in Personhood USA. Larry, please provide me a copy of the endorsement of the
    NVC to the email you have for me.

    It will be the State Central Committee of AIP
    that will determine if CN will require 150 signatures or numbers in the thousands to be
    on the ballot. I have no idea what we will do on
    the issue of signature requirements. Someone
    representing CN needs to contact Chairman Markham Robinson and explain how she want
    to run her campaign, viz., does she want voters
    that have declined to state a party affiliation to
    sign her papers and vote for here or not?

    I am looking for members of the State Central
    Committee of the American Independent Party
    to express their views on how I should deal with
    the issue of Nancy giving disinformation to the
    California Secretary of State on January 10, 2006.

  229. BOB REIS

    WHAT PART OF “ILLEGAL ” DONT YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND ??. DURING THE EARLY PART OF THE LAST CENTURY , IMMIGRANTS CAME TO AMERICA TO LEARN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, GET A NEW START FROM TYRANNICAL GOVERMENTS, AND BE FREE !! I WILL NEVER CONDON “ILLEGAL” IMMIGRANTS IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. SEND THESE BASTARDS BACK AS THEY DONT RESPECT OUR COUNTRY, OUR LANGUAGE , OUR LAWS OR OUR FLAG !!

  230. libertariangirl

    so everyone that ever immigrated here had permission from the presiding government??
    thats news to Native Americans perhaps they can send us all home . We certainly didnt respect their country , language or any sense of law.

    I say take away the welfare incentive , then only folks who want to work hard to make a better live for their families will want to come , and to them we should say ‘welcome’.

  231. Don Grundmann

    Mark Seidenberg, of comment #274 above, is a utterly and totally corrupt Republican operative who, as documented at TheCorruptionOfAlanKeyes.blogspot.com, is actively working to destroy the 3rd party conservative movement in the nation in fulfillment of the desires of his Republican controllers. He himself was part of a criminal conspiracy that deliberately filed false documents with the California Secretary of State office. His corruption has greatly aided many of the forces attacking our nation including those who are behind and endorsing illegal immigration.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Indpendent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  232. libertariangirl

    you know what is funniest about you Don Grundman , Vice Chair of the AIP , California:: everytime you make an outrageous claim like schools are teaching fisting , or P.Parenthood is trying to wipe out blacks , among many others claims , you always say ” for documentation go to such and such website”

    problem is theres never any real proof . People saying shit on a website isnt a reliable source .Its ridiculous , your standards for offering proof.

  233. libertariangirl

    I dont even remember , thats a question for Paulie. It was ridiculously funny and unsubstantiated , of course.

  234. Don Lake, late at night

    Lib Grrl: Donald J. Grundmann was reactionary but still on the surface of the planet in 2004. You seem to be out raged. As a former active supporter of Grundmann [a FORMER vocal abused veterans advocate, and FORMER IRS watch, and FORMER semi reasonable candidate] I am both out raged and greatly saddened! Oh well!

    The Cody Quirk Lack of Ethics 2009 award goes to ……..

  235. Brandall

    Go to youtube and type in “Don grundman” A freakenunbelievable Youtube video on him. The guy has severe mental issues. Just agree with him and he might go away. As for illegals and $$$ I have seen TOO many american born ingrates that bilk the system. Because someone’s skin is brown doesn’t make them illegal. peace

  236. Don Lake, late at night

    I am not in love with any recent California Secretary of State [top election official] but folks in the Deform/ Reform Party and AIP, which I totally sympathize with, are just ‘making it up as they go along’!

    Cody Quirk and the 2009 version of Doctor Grundmann are two of the sorriest liars I have met in politics out side of the Frank MacKays, John Blares, and Valli Sharpe Gieslers of the deform movement. Any lie, any spin, any deception, for ‘the cause’ ………

    Amazing how unethical those religious types can be!

  237. Caasduit

    I find alot of these post clueless, especially on illegal aliens.
    Yes, this country is a nation of immigrants, I for one am one. Came here legally. There are laws in this country which for many years now have not been followed.
    We have people comming from all over the world, and living here illegally,not just Mexico, that should read south of the border, for there are south Americans here also.
    This they all pick lettace attitude is so stupid, it just shows a lack of knowledge about illegal aliens.
    They are in virtually every factory in the U.S,they have taken over construction jobs. Heck there was a story about one who became a police officer.
    Not all illegal aliens are here to work. The crimes that have been committed against American citizens, is to say the least sad and appalling, from robery to murder.
    We cannot take in the whole world and survive, look at the mess we are in now. Once upon a time I might have been a bleeding heart, not any more, I’m fighting for my own survival, my childrens future and the future of my grandkids.

  238. Don Grundmann

    ” you know what is funniest about you Don Grundman , Vice Chair of the AIP , California:: everytime you make an outrageous claim like schools are teaching fisting , or P.Parenthood is trying to wipe out blacks , among many others claims , you always say ” for documentation go to such and such website”

    problem is theres never any real proof . People saying shit on a website isnt a reliable source .Its ridiculous , your standards for offering proof.”

    Response – Libertariangirl – The ” shit ” is entirely from you and your denial of the truth which is right in front of you; a truth ( and reliable source ) which blows the hell out of your basic existence ( not life ) philosophy. You simply can’t dispute the facts so you childishly and stupidly ( not ignorantly but STUPIDLY ) claim the facts don’t exist. FACT – The teaching of fisting to school children has been documented beyond question at massresistance.org; a organization founded by parents to defend their children from the attacks of the homosexual community against them and specifically because of the fisting incident. FACT – The attack of Planned Parenthood against the black community has been completely documented at blackgenocide.org inclusive of the words of Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, who described blacks IN HER OWN WORDS as ” human weeds.” ” Outrageous ” is a term to describe the total denial of you and all of your pro-choice loving friends who can be confronted with open and absolute proof of mass genocide and then white wash it because it blows up your fantasy bubble and exposes your friends and heroes as the villians and mass murderers that they are. Rather than working to save the victims of the attacks and to stop the crimes you stand in defense of the criminals and put your own ” shit ” out claiming that there is no documentation when it is right in front of your nose. Astounding!!! Pathetic!!! And outrageous!!!

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Indpendent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  239. Don Lake .......... More Ex Officio

    Brandall // Oct 16, 2009: ” The guy [Donald Grundmann DC] has severe mental issues …..”

    [a] Hey, if you sincerely believe this and feel strongly about it you need to file a demand/ complaint with http://www.ca.chiro.gov.

    [b] This guy [and Star Wreck’s Captain Cody Quirk] have protection for their [unsubstantiated!] political believes. How ever Doctor Gear Loose (whom I worked tirelessly for in 2004) is a current medical practitioner whom [I believe] does not believe in physical evolution [natural selection], logic, or the scientific method. I mean this guys has patients!

  240. Don Grundmann

    Cody Quirk and the 2009 version of Doctor Grundmann are two of the sorriest liars I have met in politics out side of the Frank MacKays, John Blares, and Valli Sharpe Gieslers of the deform movement. Any lie, any spin, any deception, for ‘the cause’ ………

    Amazing how unethical those religious types can be!”

    Response – Don Lake : For the above lie/comment you deserve a good slap across the face. I am sick of your own outrageous and stupid lies. Cody and I confront you with facts and since you can’t answer you resort to the above. Pathetic.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  241. Don Lake .......... More Ex Officio

    Donald Raymond Lake // Mar 28, 2009:

    Update of California’s non existent [“send money, send money”] Save Our State. Not one mention in Southern California/ Inland Empire media —-still! Not one addition to its own web site, including empty ‘Links’ page.

    If they were out of Texas, it would be “All Hat, No Cattle!”

  242. Don Grundmann

    ” does not believe in physical evolution [natural selection], logic, or the scientific method.

    Response – To the stupid ass Don Lake : 1) physical evolution, so called Darwinian ” science ,” cannot explain the existence of ONE SELF-REPLICATING CELL. Of course you parrot what you are told and have no answer other than the common Darwinian excuse of ” it just took time.” To try to explain the development of all of life by a natural selection process equivalent to the rolling of dice is utterly stupid but of course it is totally in character for you to champion it while claiming to be ” scientific ” when in actuality you are a flaming idiot. 2) You are the absolute last person to claim to be defending, or even to have in the slightest, ” logic.” 3) Your utter stupidity knows NOTHING of the scientific method as documented by just ONE of your stupid areas – the subject of ” global warming. ” The ” scientific method ” is NOT done by ” consensus ” – the current claim for the validity of the lie of global warming. In summation you are a total and complete nitwit.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  243. Don Grundmann

    ” [a] Hey, if you sincerely believe this and feel strongly about it you need to file a demand/ complaint with http://www.ca.chiro.gov.”

    Response – Go ahead Don Lake!! Complain to the Board of Examiners that I expose your stupidity and for being a moron. Complain that I defend children from homosexual attack and perversion!! It doesn’t matter that you have never met me. You’re an idiot so don’t let that stop you. Call them up and complain!! Go ahead. Do it. They have fools calling them every day so you won’t be the first. The most idiotic – yes. The biggest ass – yes. The first – no.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  244. sam brenner

    Chelene Nightingale says “God created laws for a reason” hmm God created the Mexico Border law…Very disturbing….I HOPE that anyone following Nightingale..Bill Lussenheide for congress ca-45 are aware of their misrepresentation of being the chosen candidates by THE AIP. Its funny to watch them scramble on the internet trying to clean up their lies. Also trying to squash others FREEDOM of speech, all the while ranting about THEIR freedom to speak. Don’t let these fast talking four flushers…dupe you. Remember those that have to defend defend defend…are usually hiding something..

  245. Don Grundmann

    Mr. ” Brenner ” ( presuming the highly unlikely chance that is your real name ) – If you were in front of me right now I would slap you in the face for your outrageous lies against Chelene and Bill; 2 people who have more honor, character, and integrity than you, as a rodent, can ever dream of. 1) Bill and Chelene will be the candidates of the REAL AIP; the non-corruption faction of the party as compared to the corruption faction of Robinson/Seidenberg that you support. 2) They have lied on nothing and are hence not ” scrambling to clean up ” anything. This is a outright lie by you. 3) They have done nothing to impede or harm the free speech of anyone else. Yet another outright lie by you. 4) They have nothing to hide and hence no need to defend anything except what they are already doing which is defending the state and nation against corruption such as represented by you. Bottom line – you are a lying rat.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  246. Don Grundmann

    ” The fact that the group folded under her ‘leadership’ is a strong hint..”

    Response – Yet another jackass/nitwit comment by the King of Jackasses.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  247. sam brenner

    lol Don….isn’t it time for you to protest against the gays in San Francisco? Check out Don Grundmann on Youtube..making a fool of himself..with protest signs and rantings against gays. (truly troubling.)
    btw was that a threat against me. The “I would slap you across the face” comment? Hmm…blogging on webpages is one thing…But talking about assault is another. I will be saving this comment…and looking further into action. I would suggest you let people voice their opinion. Without the threats…..BTW how is your campaign going for senate?? PEOPLE please be aware of the character of these hack people running under the (non existent) Constitution Party of CA. CALIFORNIA does not have a constitution party. Email chairman Mark Robinson AIP if you need further clarification.

  248. Don Grundmann

    ” sam brenner ” ( a.k.a. Mark Seidenberg ) – How is your campaign for ANYTHING going? Of course it is going nowhere because you are too cowardly to campaign. I am fighting for the preservation of marriage and the protection of the children of our state and nation from the homosexual assault/attack upon them. You will not only not lift a finger in their defense but are in total agreement with their attack which is why my Youtube video is ” troubling ” to a rodent like you. You fight for nothing because you are a coward. People already know of YOUR ” character ” – you are a lying, cowardly rat ( just like your buddy Mark Robinson ) who is a moral and literal criminal as with your filing of false documents with the Secretary of State office. Everyone can read of your cowardice and corruption at TheCorruptionOfAlanKeyes.blogspot.com. I explain that there was never a vote to disaffiliate the AIP from the CP. It was all, and to this day, a total lie and fake. I have immortalized you for the generations to come. Children hundreds of years into the future and for generations to come will remember that Mark Robinson, Mark Seidenberg, Ed Noonan, Tom Hoefling, and the master criminal Alan Keyes were all master liars and moral criminals. That will be the legacy that you leave. It will be well deserved for a rat like you that you will be remembered by word association. Rat – Mark Seidenber/Mark Robinson. Liar – Mark Seidenberg/Mark Robinson. Corrupt/Corruption – Mark Seidenberg/Mark Robinson. Moral Criminal/criminal – Mark Seidenberg/Mark Robinson. This is how you will be forever remembered.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  249. sam brenner

    btw I am not Mark Sidenberg…you owe the leaders of the AIP an apology.
    Is there something seriously wrong with you? The men with big nets are on the look out….”what, me worry?”

    :)

  250. Don Grundmann

    Don Lake – You see Don this shows what a true ass you are. You can’t defend your incompetant ( i.e; stupid ) and dumbshit writings, such as your defense ( as with ” sam ” ) of homosexual perversion and attacks upon children, and so you, who have never met me personally, encourage others who also have no idea of what they are talking about to complain to the state board for imaginary wrongs which you will simply dream up. What a fool and idiot you are!!! Go ahead and complain to the state board regarding my defense of children and any other political stand. It only shows what a absolute nitwit you are. The only small difference between you and ” sam ” which I can possibly give you credit for is that you are not so openly corrupt. Supremely stupid – yes. Totally corrupt -no. I would hope that for your future existence you at least have, unlike Robinson/Seidenberg/” sam,” some small sliver of shame for doing such utterly stupid things as you have written of above. When you can’t defend your positions you resort to the above beyond pathetic writing. P.S. for you and ” sam ” – Keep on attacking Chelene and all of our candidates. It only adds to our credibility to be attacked by beyond nitwits like yourself especially when they are corrupt to the bone like ” sam.”

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  251. Don Grundmann

    ” you owe the leaders of the AIP an apology ”

    Response – ” sam ” – I, with Chairman Jim King, AM the leadership of the AIP. I will NEVER ” apologize ” for anything to the ultra corrupt Mark Robinson and Mark Seidenberg. If you agree with the corruption of Robinson and Seidenberg you are therefore a supporter and endorser of corruption; i.e.; a rat like they are. So I and Chairman King will defeat their, and your, corruption. The AIP will be restored to a party which renounces, attacks, and defeats corruption across the board as it attacks our citizens, state, and nation. The criminality, both moral and actual, of Robinson and Seidenberg will be defeated.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  252. Don Lake .......... More Liars with Dems and GOP

    For those keeping tabs on the wild wide orbits of religious zealots infecting secular politics with lies and ‘making it up as they go along’ ………..

    In P2008 Doctor Goo Goo swore up and down as did former Californian Captain Cody Quirk, that a Christ based miracle would occur prior to the November General Election and that God him self would replace bad boy Ambassador Alan Keyes, the 21st Century Anti Christ, with good boy [acts Gay] Minister Charles Baldwin!

    Never happened! Instead of taking responsibility for grossly bad judgment and short sided political mismanagement, Doctor Goo Goo flails around blaming every one but him self and Captain Quirk!

  253. Don Lake .......... More Liars with Dems and GOP

    Don Grundmann // Jan 6, 2010: “I, with Chairman Jim King, AM the leadership of the (California) AIP.”

    So Doctor Goo Goo the Anti Scientist takes partial responsibility with San Bernardino County military veterans hater James King whom has ignored the plights, often lethal, of prison like inmates of the worst veterans home in the nation. Veterans Home of California – Barstow is just down the free way from the neglect of the AIP leader[s]!

    Only the second of 200 state veterans care campuses to be unfunded [unfriended ????] due to lack of quality patient care. Only California home with out SNF (‘sniff’) Skilled Nursing Facility. Dozens of suspicious incidents, including lethal ones! Direct letters from Citizens For Better Veterans Home, local print news articles and Citizens letters to the editor and [if it not involve abortion] King was clue less!

    Obvious he does not care about abused or neglected former military. In 2004 you received our endorsement and got standing ovations on veterans issues! How do you stand (between shadowing caravans of preditory recruiting gays and broad casting New England ‘sexual fisting’ instruction by public school educators) on veterans in 2010 ???????

  254. sam brenner

    dare I comment again? Tis a far far better thing i do……(I do it I do it!!!)
    ahhhh What’s up doc? Okay since this has turned into the “funny farm,” up is down….black is white and Don Grundmann is vice chair of the aip….Okay it’s a boring day here at bellview….At what point are the false Candidates running under the constitution party/aip (Aip not now connected to CP) at what point…do people ask them to show proof of their
    approved nomination as AIP candidates??? Oh wait…whenever someone questions them they have Underdog the super hero Don grundmann fly in and squack…”lies lies lies!!” You know the old saying “don’t feed the animals.” I will
    consider this….”Lord lead me from temptation.”

    :)

  255. Peter Gemma

    doesn’t CA allow the use of marijuana for medical reasons? these people are waaay over medicated.

  256. sam brenner

    clarification I am not the Sam Brenner.com guy…..pure coincidence
    that when I wrote “boring day at Bellview” (Bellview referring to a mental institution by that name) not Bellevue college….of which the sam brenner you are referring goes to. my reference was pure sarcasim….note the spelling was different…..there are a lot of sam brenners out there….just wanted to clarify…..:)

  257. Don Grundmann

    ” Third Party Revolution // Jan 7, 2010 at 5:21 pm

    Out of curiosity Don G., what is this corruption that lingers among the Keyes faction of the AIP?”

    Response : Third Party Revolution – The issues involved are clarified at TheCorruptionOfAlanKeyes.blogspot.com. A core issue is the claim by the corruption faction of the AIP ( Robinson/Seidenberg ) that the AIP voted to disaffiliate from the CP. This is a outright lie as no such vote was ever taken as is explained at the website. You are welcome to call or e-mail me if you have any questions regarding the issue after you read the website. My cell phone is 510-7600968. My e-mail is STOPtheIRS@hotmail.com. Best to you,

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  258. sam brenner

    enough…look Don The sec of state
    named Alan Keyes as the Pres. nominee
    for AIP Not Chuck Baldwin…all the lawsuits are over….AIP is not connected to constitution party and all your ranting won’t make it so. Just stop the nonsense. People see through this charade. Act in a mature and sane way….for your own benefit. peace

  259. Brad

    The real issue here is that clicking on sam brenner’s name above leads to an error page. I don’t think someone whose name is linked to “Oops! This link appears to be broken” should be giving other people advice!

    Until this matter is resolved, I will have a hard time taking anything sam brenner says seriously :-)

  260. Don Grundmann

    ” all the lawsuits are over ”

    Response – Yet another lie from ” sam “/Mark Seidenberg. The lawsuit is proceding despite being delayed by the ( yet again ) cowardice of Mark Robinson in attempting to avoid legal service. As documented at TheCorruptionOfAlanKeyes.blogspot.com no true vote to disaffiliate the AIP from the CP was ever taken; only a fake vote coordinated by Robinson and Seidenberg upon which they then filed false documents with the SOS office in a attempt to legitimize their corruption. They are fakes, frauds, and liars of the highest ( lowest ) degree.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  261. sam brenner

    lol Give it up brad. The issue isn’t over my name or link. ha…. quit trying to squash others freedom of speech. Who are you btw…not that it matters…this is a chat blog…. I could be Barack Obama for all that it matters. You must have an agenda..
    than otherwise discussing subjects…
    Not going to work. But, ah have a nice day ..:)

  262. Brad

    “lol Give it up brad. The issue isn’t over my name or link.”

    Sure it is. If you are going to put up a link at all, make it a working link, even if it has nothing to do with you. Otherwise, just leave the website part blank, and only fill in whatever name you are using (whether it is your name or not) and email (whether it is a real email or not). Nothing at all needs to go in under website, unless it is a website you actually want people to look at by clicking on your name link here.

    ” ha…. quit trying to squash others freedom of speech.”

    Wouldn’t dream of it. I have neither the ability nor the intention.

    “Who are you btw…not that it matters…”

    You’re right, it doesn’t matter. And I don’t care who you are either.

    If you fill in the website on here (which is optional) it can be anything from your actual website to something completely different. But please make it a working one if you bother to fill it in at all :-)

    “I could be Barack Obama for all that it matters”

    I suppose anything is possible, although I highly doubt the president of the US will waste his time commenting here about faction fights within a relatively insignificant third party within one state of all things. But as I said I don’t care who you are, only that if websites are linked to names that those websites should work, not be DNS errors.

    ” You must have an agenda.”

    Everyone has an agenda. However, my agenda has nothing to do with the faction fights in the AIP/CP/AI’sP of California as that is not my state, not my party, and not my ideology.

    As far as whether you or Grundmann is correct – I don’t care.

    “than otherwise discussing subjects…”

    I don’t know what you mean.

    “Not going to work.”

    What’s not going to work? getting you to either point at something that works, or stopping from pointing at something that doesn’t?

    ” But, ah have a nice day ..:)”

    Thank you, and same to you.

  263. Dee Mayer

    News just in. Per Vice Chairman Mark Seidenberg..Chelene Nightingale does not qualify to run in CA UNDER THE AIP as candidate For Governor 2010 as she was not a registered member of that party for one year prior. She can run as a write in for Constitution Party (as the CP does not have ballot access in CA). Ah well, better luck next time. She was registered as a Republican in 2009.

  264. Don Grundmann

    Sorry ” Dee Mayer,” a.k.a. Mark Seidenberg – you are wrong ( lying ) again just as you were when you came to Phoenix and proclaimed at the Constitution Party convention that the lawsuit against the corruption of you and Robinson was stopped. Not so. And just as certainly your lies will not stop the campaign of Chelene.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  265. Walt

    Found a website for Chelene Nightingale telling voters to register AIP to vote for her in the june primary….The it promptly states “you can change back to your “own” party right after you vote!!” What kind of deceitful garbage is that?? Very sickening…The website is under a AT&T….chelene nightingale for governor 2010… Lets stop fraud candidates that will stoop to any level.

  266. Don Grundmann

    ” Lets stop fraud candidates that will stoop to any level.”

    Response – ” Walt “/Mark Seidenberg – You are the guy who is part of a conspiracy that deliberately filed false documentation with the SOS office. You are already a complete and total FRAUD AND LIAR. You have already proven that you will ” stoop to any level.” Let’s stop the fraud liars of the AIP – Robinson, Seidenberg, and Noonan.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  267. Walt

    in regards to voter fraud:

    These acts are considered to be morally unacceptable, outside the spirit of electoral laws or in violation of the principles of democracy.

    Harsh penalties AIMED at deterring electoral FRAUD make it likely that inviduals who perpetrate fraud do so with the expectation that it either will NOT be discovered or will be excused.

    The Chelene Nightingale campaign wishes to establish a “dictatorship” to breakdown “democracy” by trying to implement voter fraud.

  268. Walt

    I have the proof. I have the printed copy of the website.. It will be mailed to the Chairman of AIP Markham Robinson. It will be exposed.

  269. Don Grundmann

    The Chairman of the AIP is Jim King. Mark Robinson is the moral criminal who falsely claims to be the AIP Chairman.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  270. Don Lake .......... More Churchiness

    DECLARATION

    I DONALD RAYMOND LAKE am using this declaration as a formal complaint to the State of California Secretary of State’s Office as a violation of the formal election codes. The American Independent Party is a ballot-qualified party recognized by the California Secretary of State, with a registered I.D.# 742371. How ever, to the best of my of believe and knowledge, the presently unrecognized faction of the California American Independent Party has engaged in illegal actions.

    DOCTOR DONALD J. GRUNDMANN [DC] has repeatedly misrepresented him self and his allies, including, but not limited to, present 2010 gubernatorial candidate hopeful Chelene Nightingale. Doctor Grundmann has threatened to illegally physically abuse my self and others on a number of occasions. Much of this misbehavior has been recorded on http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com

    MS CHELENE NIGHTINGALE has been a registered member of the [so called] American Independent Party for less than the required year.

    MS CHELENE NIGHTINGALE and allies, including but not limited to Doctor Grundmann and one Barbara Cole of RRCI, have openly and publicly enjoined California registered voters to unethically and temporarily register for the unique and specific purpose of signing partisan paper work for Ms Nightingale. I figured early on that there was a certain lack of ethics involved in this effort. I have since been informed from a number of sources that this effort is also illegal.

    As a legal and lawful registered state voter, I wish to be included as a complainant/ plaintiff on any and all of the situations hereto within. I am constructing this instrument in the County of San Diego, in the Republic of California, on this 21st day of January in the year 2010. I do so with out any effort to evade and to the best of my ability,

    ___________________________
    Donald Raymond Lake, Complainant

    Donlake@ymail.com
    263 Eucalyptus Court
    Chula Vista California
    91910-3030
    619.420.0209

    Per California Secretary of State
    1500 11th Street Sacramento,
    California 95814 (916) 653-6814

  271. Don Grundmann

    1-22-10

    Don Lake – Since you are in post #337 above publicly accusing me of breaking the law I with this notice begin the formal process of demanding your retraction of such accusations. In the event that you fail to do so by 2-01-10 I will commence legal actions for your commission of libel against me.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  272. Don Grundmann

    Don Lake – Your alliance with the corruption of Robinson and Seidenberg is now out in the open. I demand a retraction of your accusations against me or I will procede with a libel lawsuit against you.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  273. Don Lake .......... More Hyperobly

    Trent Hill // Mar 15, 2009:
    “Look for Nightingale to become a big player in third party politics over the coming years. She’s a motivate [sic] mover and shaker ……..”

    oh what a difference ten months make and what side of the SOS complaint and never happen law suit will Trent be on, as he is ALMOST as illogical as Doctor Goo Goo and Captain Commander Cody Quirk ……….

  274. libertarianblue

    Couple of things here:

    1. Buchanan is a huge racist and anti-semite, many of his writings regarding Hitler, David Duke and others prove it. The illegal immigration issue that the left drags out (alongside Obama’s election) gives Paleoconservatives a platform to spew their racist rhetoric which they can easily hide under the illegal immigration/anti-Obama banner.

    2. If Liberty is truly this woman’s goal, why did she join a party that is very anti-economic and anti-personal liberty than both the GOP and the Dems?

  275. Don Grundmann

    Don Lake – You will retract your slander or you will be sued for libel. I will prove in court that you are a liar and you will bear the cost. Your comment above will prove that you are aware of your actions and my demand.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  276. Don Grundmann

    Libertarianblue – 1) It is a total lie that Buchanan is a racist. That slander is always used by liberals against anyone they oppose while they themselves, doubtless including you, support the most racist organization in history – Planned Parenthood – whose founder, Margaret Sanger, called blacks ” human weeds ” and whose Social Darwinist movement has murdered countless millions of non-white people around the world in their Jihad against humanity. It is YOU who ” spew out racist rhetoric.” 2) The REAL American Independent Party, as opposed to the corruption faction of the party currently controlled by the current fake Chairman Mark Robinson, supports the economic solutions which built our nation to be the greatest economic power in the world. We, with Chelene Nightingale as our candidate for Governor, fight for the liberty of ALL citizens – born and unborn.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  277. Don Lake .......... More Hyperobly

    Don Grundmann // Jan 23, 2010:
    “Don Lake – You will retract your slander or you will be sued for libel. I will prove in court that you are a liar and you will bear the cost. Your comment above will prove that you are aware of your actions and my demand. ”

    Yes, this is your ‘in lieu’ of a pre trial demand letter.

    Good luck, you’ll need it and it will probably spell the end of the organized Pro Baldwin cabal, your professional practice, your thread bare reputation, RRCI, and may be the AIP ‘en toto’ …………

  278. Don Grundmann

    1-23-10

    Don Lake – As can be demonstrated from your posts you have accused me of criminal activity with no basis in fact and with no evidence of any crime or my participation in any such imagined crime or any actions associated with any such imagined crime. Your posts, as above, openly admit your deliberate attempt to harm my professional career and reputation through your baseless and factless slanders. You have even admitted writing to the State Board of Chiropractic Examiners to achieve your deliberately slanderous and libelous ends. This you have done without ever meeting me personally, with no knowledge of my professional practice, and with no evidence of any harm to any patient that I have ever treated; none of whom you have any contact with nor any knowledge of. As court proceedings will demonstrate, inclusive of this posting, I am giving you the opportunity to retract your deliberately slanderous and libelous statements with the acknowledgement that 1) you have falsely accused me of a crime with the direct intent to harm me personally and professionally; 2) you have no knowledge of and no evidence to provide the slightest linkage between myself and any supposed crime either real or imagined; 3) you have no knowledge of any professional misconduct, inappropriate actions, or harm to any of my patients from any actions which I have taken and that any such accusations from yourself are totally fraudulent, imaginary, false, and baseless in fact; and 4) you apologize publicly and to me for your slanderous and libelous actions and false accusations. You have until midnight of 1-31-10 to produce a comprehensive statement including the above elements as noted. Failure on your part to do so will begin the initiation of legal proceedings regarding this matter including appropriate demands for monetary compensation relative to your deliberate and malicious slanderous and libelous actions. Such legal proceedings will demonstrate to any reasonable observer that you have deliberately and with malice performed actions against myself inclusive of accusing me of criminal actions with absolutely no basis or foundation in fact, law, or accompanied by any evidence of any kind or type whatsoever. Evidence in court will also conclusively demonstrate that you have additionally attempted to harm my professional career by deliberately and maliciously presenting false accusations to the State Board of Chiropractic Examiners based upon no evidence of any misconduct on my part whatsoever. You will be receiving legal notification of these matters. This post will be demonstrative of my sincere attempt to present you with the opportunity to correct your deliberate and malicious slanderous and libelous actions without resorting to legal defensive and corrective action.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  279. Bruce Cohen

    It’s time for the Indys to stop fighting.

    You’re starting to sound like us Liberhooligans!

    Hope you guys can settle all this and shake hands someday, geez.

  280. Don Grundmann

    Mr. Lake – I additionally demand that you send letters of retraction of your comments to the governmental agencies which you have already contacted with your slanderous and libelous accusations against me. You have until midnight of 1-31-10 to perform such actions. Your above posting will be used as evidence against you in legal proceedings.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  281. paulie

    Buchanan is a huge racist and anti-semite, many of his writings regarding Hitler, David Duke and others prove it

    see http://www.realchange.org/buchanan.htm for details

    We need open borders, free trade, zero taxes, zero tariffs, end the drug war, competing privately issued currencies, no registrations or licensing for guns/gunowners or cars/drivers or any kind of business, individual (not state/national) sovereignty. See my earlier comments above.

  282. Don Lake .......... More Hyperbole

    Yes,, Doctor Goo Goo, it is spot lighting the obvious and officially labled ‘discovery’

    You were some what wrong in 2004

    You were off base in 2008

    You are off planet in 2010

    Your allies will ONCE AGAIN not
    make it to the ballot, and that may
    be unsettingly —– but not illegal.

  283. Beef don-don-off

    “ooh snap , its a Don-Don off… bets anyone??”

    My bet’s on Grundmann. Previously posted information indicates he has some buck$ and while I don’t know this for a fact, I’m guessing Lake doesn’t have many of those. And all in all, having financial means is a plus in civil litigation.

  284. libertarianblue

    Don Grundmann

    Your post is full of nothing but lies with calling me a liberal being the biggest one. The fact that your evidence to” counter” my claim that Buchanan is a racist is bringing up Planned Parenthood and my supposed membership (since apparently you know me personally) only confirms that Im right. I didnt think a Paleoconservative would result to using emotion to attack an argument isnt that tactic reserved for liberals?

  285. Don Grundmann

    Libertarianblue – It is not ” emotion ” but fact that documents, IN HER OWN WORDS, the foaming-at-the-mouth racism of Margaret Sanger and her founding of what became Planned Parenthood for the purpose of eliminating, IN HER OWN WORDS, the ” human weeds;” i.e.; non-whites, most particularly blacks but also including religious whites like Catholics since they believe in the life principle. Planned Parenthood, under another name, was originally an outright pro-eugenics organization but after WW2 and the Nazi eugenics program ( which was inspired by the Social Darwinist movement which spawned PP and Margaret Sanger ) it was bad PR to be associated with mass murder so the name of the organization was changed to Planned Parenthood. Of course they still believed in and practiced mass murder as they do to this day. And they, the Plantation Masters of the nation who control it, still have people like you to act as their shills and accuse; i.e.; lie; about racism by Buchanan in order to divert attention from the biggest racist organization in the history of the world. Not to mention the most murderous as PP has literally killed millions more than a truly racist organization like the KKK ( founded by prominent members of the Democratic Party by the way ) has ever, or could ever, dream of. So it is really YOU who provide the ” emotion ” of your shrill lie against Buchanan as part of the endless stream of lies to divert atention from the biggest racist organization in the history of the world. And the best part for the Plantation Masters is that you do their shill work for free as a testament of how well their programming of you has worked.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  286. LibertarianGirl

    DG_ but also including religious whites like Catholics since they believe in the life principle

    me__ yes they do , they need fresh little alter boys for their priests..GROSS!

  287. LibertarianGirl

    Ok much as I distrust Grundman , he makes a few points Id like clarified from others since I cant just believe him , but I dont disbelieve this::

    Was the KKK founded by democrats??

    and was the founder of Planned Parenthood a closet racist ??

    id like the answer to both from someone else or a link from a reliable research link please

  288. libertarianblue

    Grundman

    Once again your bringing up a point that has no relevance. The topic at hand is that Buchanan is a racist and anti-semite. This has nothing to do with the left. If you want to argue that many liberals secretly support racist policies than do it in another topic. The fact you just resort to calling me names and an Obamabot is a clear sign that you cant argue against the fact that Buchanan is a bigot and an anti-Semite. Have a day.

    LibertarianGirl

    Yes the Klan was founded by Dems. Originally it was supposed to be a men’s club for Civil War vets but quickly became a Racist organization.

    From what I read about Planned Parenthood was that its founder Margaret Sanger was sympathetic to Nazi Eugenics but altered it to a point to make it sound “acceptable.”

  289. Don Grundmann

    Libertarianblue – I present 2 facts regarding the racism of Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood – 1) IN HER OWN WORDS he wrote of blacks as ” human weeds.” 2) She created ” The Negro Project.” This was designed to use sell out black pastors in service to the Plantation Masters who created and control Planned Parenthood to stop any community suspicion of PP’s real motives; i.e; that they were/are dedicated to killing blacks and the black community. In this plan the fake sell out pastors would reassure those who began to understand the true nature of PP that they were wrong and that PP was instead their friend.

    Now I have given you 2 facts which can easily be documented and have been so. I now challenge you to give ONE fact, just ONE, that Patrick Buchanan is a racist. JUST ONE!!!!

    I say that you cannot because you are no different than a parrot – You hear the phrase that Buchanan is a racist and you simply repeat the phrase with ZERO facts to back it up. It is YOU who are the ” bigot ” because you defend the racists of Planned Parenthood. You attack Buchanan not because he is racist, which he is not, but because he is pro-life. That is the REAL reason that you use the ” racist ” smear which has not one shred of evidence behind it. Of course you are not alone. There are mountains of pathetic parrots who repeat the same phrase and for the same reason – they not only talk like parrots but they THINK the same way. They repeat what their Plantation Masters tell them to say.

    I have found that lovers of abortion ALWAYS, 100% EVERY TIME, call their opponents ” racist.” They do this to mask the fact that it is they who support the racist actions of the still existing Social Darwinist Plantation Masters of the nation who attack humanity via their front groups inclusive of Planned Parenthood as a killing leader and via their shills such as you.

    I also challenge you to show ONE, just ONE, fact that backs up your claim that Buchanan is ” anti-semite.” The term, just like racism, is so easy to throw around as can be seen by the parrots who keep repeating it.

    But can the same parrots EVER challenge Planned Parenthood for the mass murder which was the reason for its formation, the reality of what it has done, and its intent to continue doing in the future? Not a chance. Because the parrots are just that – parrots. To challenge the evil of Planned Parenthood would be to reject their own belief system and admit that they have been wrong in their basic life philosophy. They would rather die ( and let countless millions more be slaughtered ) than let their precious ego be shown as wrong.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  290. megan simmons

    C Nightingale is still trying to run for a position in ca? I knew her back at some save our state functions. Totally angry attention seeking individual. I am surprised she would pull this stunt.
    She can get people to back her with her foaming of the mouth. She makes no sense…after awhile you just s l o w l y back away and NEVER look back.

  291. Don Grundmann

    ” megan simmons ”

    Response – Yet another rodent crawling out from under their rock. Thankfully the REAL AIP will be the ” Orkin Man ” equivalent in the upcoming primary by spraying for/defeating the Robinson/Seidenberg/Noonan rats and their supporters. The REAL AIP of Chairman King will ” flush the toilet ” on the rodents and send them where they belong.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  292. Mark Seidenberg

    Warning: THREE DATES DON
    Grundmann claims he was elected Vice Chairman as a faction of the Branch of the Constitution Party on three different dates in June, 2008, viz., June 6, 2008, June 27, 2008,
    & JUNE 28 – 29, 2008 (at the Los Angeles Airport Westin Hotel).

    Under the California Election Code all conventions of the AIP take place and a time
    and location in Sacramento set by the AIP
    State Central Committee. The AIP 2008
    Convention took place at the Auditorium
    of the California Secretary of State Building
    in Sacramento, CA on July 5, 2008. I was
    the elected chairman of the Convention and
    Don Grundmann was a present delegate that
    walked out of the Convention just before
    the Delegates selected Dr. Alan Keyes for
    President and Dr. Wiley Drake for Vice President.

    It is my guess that Grundmann was upset because he could not find one other delegate
    at that convention to place his name in nomination for President of United States.

    This was a repeat of what took place in Kansas
    City at the Constitution Party Convention when
    he could find no other person on the California
    Delegation to place his name in nomination.

    At Kansas City Dr. Alan Keyes got 80% of the
    California Delegates vote. Grundmann after not
    finding person other than himself on the California Delegation that would back him for
    President switch his vote at the last minute for
    Chuck Baldwin. Therefore the California vote
    was 80% for Keyes and 20% for Chuck Baldwin.

    Even Jim and Rayna King voted for Dr. Keyes
    in Kansas City.

    Back to the cabal of hijacker that met at the LAX
    hotel for a bogus convention. I was asked to open that convention (sic) because I was the Vice Chairman of the American Independent Party.
    I refused because the State Central Committee
    set the date for the Convention on July 5, 2008
    in Sacramento as required by the California Election Code.

    Note, California Election Code 7575 states in part that “The convention shall be called to order by the Chairman of the State Central
    Committee.” Chairman Ed Noonan called the
    Convention to order at Sacramento on July 5,
    2008.

    Sincerely, Mark Seidenberg, Vice Chairman,
    American Independent Party & Chairman,
    Orange County Chairman of the American Independent Party & 2008 Convention Chairman of the American Independent Party

  293. Don Grundmann

    Mark – Your time of lying is coming to an end. You know that you are lying about Kansas City and so many other things but yet you keep on going. The end to your lying is coming soon. Did you accept my debate challenge? Just know that 1) it will be recorded and put on YouTube, 2) that I will use it as evidence in the upcoming lawsuits, and 3) that it will be used to show that you have lied at your upcoming deposition and in any other court cases. It will be used as both current and historical evidence to both all AIP voters and the citizens of the state as a whole of the utter to-the-bone-and-beyond corruption of you, Mark Robinson, and Ed Noonan. It will expose you to everyone for the dammed rats that you are.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  294. Don Grundmann

    As a postscript to this thread Chelene Nightingale is now a certified candidate for Governor in the June primary election despite the countless lies and attacks against her inclusive of the idiocy of proclaiming that she was not American Independent but Republican instead. Of course all such lies and attacks originated with the most ultra corrupt political rodents in California if not the nation as documented at TheCorruptionOfAlanKeyes.blogspot.com

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  295. Dear Megan Simmons ..........

    megan simmons // Feb 28, 2010 at 4:41 pm

    Stop it don, you are “turning me on!”

    ——- Donald Grundmann ???????????

    ——- Donald Lake ????????????

    ——- Don Knotts ???????????

    If you are a registered American Independent Party partisan remember to vote on June 8th!

  296. Dear California AIP ..........

    Chelene Nightingale is now a certified candidate for Governor in the June primary election despite the countless lies and attacks against her

    ——- Don Knotts ??????????? and rest of the Chuck Baldwin Keystone Kops say: that after running ‘Save Our State’ into near oblivion, the Nightingale know nothings it was the SNAFUs [Situation Normal: All Fouled Up!] of she and her inept crew from the local Clown College!

    If you are a registered American Independent Party partisan remember to vote for Noonan and Robinson and Seidenberg on June 8th!

    I, Don Lake, have been warning folks about Do Nothing Nightingale since August —– and I retract not one statement! Come on June 9th: it will be November 2008 all over again!

  297. Don Grundmann

    Thankfully no one will listen to Don Lake since he has shown himself to be a certified idiot/nitwit. He has an audience and following of one – himself. The total corruption of Noonan, Robinson, Seidenberg, and their supporters such as Don Lake will be crushed in June.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  298. patriot

    What candidate running under the AIP in california…has an ON RECORD criminal past that is VERY VERY VERY BAD?? He/she will not be able to squash this as it is on the police records and has already been accessed..
    Hmm answers soon

  299. Don Grundmann

    For readers of this thread the writer of comment #374 above, ” patriot,” is in reality Mark Seidenberg. The ultra corruption of Mark Seidenberg is documented at TheCorruptionOfAlanKeyes.blogspot.com. He is a moral and literal criminal who is guilty of committing Grand Theft fraud via deliberately filing false documents with the California Secretary of State office. Hence while he writes of the non-existent ” criminal past ” of one of the REAL AIP candidates ( the faction of the AIP which is anti-corruption compared to, and opposed to, his own corruption faction ) he himself is, up to and including the moment of this writing, an actual criminal who is part of an active criminal conspiracy. He is not only a law breaker but in the far deeper and more profound sense he is an enemy of our citizens, our Consitution, our nation, and humanity as a whole. He is a traitor and should be treated as such.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  300. They pray they lie they pray they lie

    Don G… you have totally gone over the edge….I am Not siedenberger you jerk…trust me I am not!!! You would be surprised… More info following re: Criminal past of candidate…for aip…
    He/she…should come clean now before being embarassed. Tax returns
    should be examined of all Candidates for Goverment positions…Meg Whitman Jerry Brown and others have not objected…lets see ALL TAX RETURNS FOR AIP CANDIDATES!!
    How about it don g??? Tax returns available??? You are running for senate are you not??

  301. They pray they lie they pray they lie

    Criminal past of candidate does not involve tax returns..though that might prove effective as well. Studies show that people who have criminal pasts and lie in one area also lie in all aspects of their life….so tax returns are a good meter as well…..

  302. They pray they lie they pray they lie

    Constitution branch?? of the AIP “really??” lol why do you make up crap? (shaking head) the truth will be revealed soon Thank God!!!

  303. They pray they lie they pray they lie

    Don g. isn’t it time for you to do a sign waving rant in SF??? Rant about the gays or some such venture?? I am beginning to feel actually sorry for you.
    Seriously, you are an unmarried man with no children and age what 55??
    No crime there…but, I think the loneliness has made you alittle coo coo~~~

  304. Don Grundmann

    Stupid Don Lake – The first thing that I tell everyone whenever I give a campaign speech is the following – You have all been trained to not believe what I am about to tell you but if you can prove that what I say is wrong you can get $300,000. And what I say is this – There is no law which requires an American working in America to either file a tax return or to pay income tax. I have not filed or paid ince 1995. So Stupid Don Lake – show that I am wrong. Get the $300,000. We both know that that will not happen because you are too stupid and lazy to work to get the $300,000. A nitwit like you will will rave that I don’t pay taxes without any mention that the whole income tax scam is the biggest finacial scandal and crime in the history of the nation. A crime that cheats virtually all of the citizens, has cheated their parents, and will cheat their children and grandchildren unless it is stopped. But that will be no concern to the Stupid Don Lake. So go ahead and do your ( as usual ) stupid nitwit ravings.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  305. They pray they lie they pray they lie

    (whats the IRS tip line phone #?) Holy
    10 years in prison BATMAN!!!! a CONFESSION OF NOT PAYING INCOME TAX FROM AN AIP candidate for senate and good friend to Chelene Nightingale and her crew!!!
    Don G you must realize that anything you say Can and will be used against you in a court of law!!! Never put this kind of stuff in writing….Don Grundmann you are incriminating yourself beyond repair…Don g…do you have a desire to go to the “big House?” You realize what will happen to you in prison, don’t you??? (hmmm) wait a minute….Don g maybe you want to go to prison…maybe you…….(to be continued) :0 :0 :0

  306. Dear .......... Thinkers

    think that the voice mail line is
    busy, busy, busy ………..

    a better bet would be http://www.irs.gov

    How Do You Report Suspected Tax Fraud Activity?

    If you suspect or know of an individual or company that is not complying with the tax laws, you may report this activity by completing Form 3949-A. You may fill out Form 3949-A online, print it and mail it to:

    Internal Revenue Service
    Fresno, CA 93888

    If you do not wish to use Form 3949-A, you may send a letter to the address above. Please include the following information, if available:

    Name and address of the person you are reporting.
    A brief description of the alleged violation, including how you became aware of or obtained the information
    The years involved
    The estimated dollar amount of any unreported income

    Although you are not required to identify yourself, it is helpful to do so. Your identity can be kept confidential.

    Frequently Asked Questions – 1.13 IRS Procedures: Reporting Fraud

  307. Don Grundmann

    Stupid Don Lake – Get the address right – 425 E. Merle Ct., San Leandro, CA 94577. How predictable you are. Would you fight against the corruption of the IRS when it is swindling everyone – INCLUDING YOU??? Not a chance. Since you are not only stupid but cowardly; like your heroes Robinson, Seidenberg, and Noonan; you will instead call the IRS to report me. Go ahead!! As soon as you get off the phone you will STILL ( and always ) be 1) stupid, and 2) a coward. I have told literally thousands of people the same thing in person in addition to on the radio and in TV interviews. I have handed out literally thousands of pieces of campaign literature that say the same thing. I will be fighting the biggest financial scandal and crime in the history of the nation. It doesn’t matter how many stupid cowards like you join the rats of the IRS or the Robinson, Seidenberg, Noonan rats. I will still be fighting evil – and defeating it – while you sit on your butt while you support and endorse it. And you will still, and always ( and by YOUR OWN CHOICE ), be STUPID.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  308. They pray they lie they pray they lie

    “my baby…she wrote me a letter”
    “So send a letter maria…address it to my wife…say I won’t be coming home…
    gonna start a new life” “I got those…prison blues…..oh yeaah ”
    “I see that train a comin….a comin down that track…..” “Tie a yellow ribbon round the old oak tree…it’s been 3 long years….do you still love me” “I fought the LAW and the LAW won…I fought the LAW and the Law won!!” :=)

  309. JT

    Just type in google “chelene Nightingale Nativist” read all about her past, then say whether this is an appropriate candidate for governor.

  310. Great ideas

    Hey great new Party NAME;

    THE PEE PARTY!!!
    YOU MUST BE 65 OR OLDER
    the slogan will be ” Freedom- IN – “DEPEND” ence!!! har har

    (booo)

  311. Party Traitors .......... Lake

    Gilchrist joined the fray, sending out an E-mail that attacked Gheen, San Diego Minutemen leader Jeff Schwilk,

    and former Save Our State leader Chelene Nightingale

    as “grifters posing as patriots,” “incurable racists who limit activist participation to only white persons, bigots” whose “shortsightedness limits their association only to those who will goose-step according to their whim.” ‘

    attention Independent Political Report:
    FORMER, FORMER, FORMER leader!

  312. Don Grundmann

    I would hope that I am wrong but it appears that Jim Gilchrist has joined the corruption forces of Robinson, Seidenberg, and Noonan. Chelene Nightingale is a wonderful, courageous, and extremely hardworking and intelligent candidate. The usual smear of anti-Americans and those who wish to destroy the conservative movement is to accuse them of being ” racist.” This is ALWAYS the FIRST tactic of rodents who are working to destroy our nation. Hence it is no surprise that Chelene is attacked in the same way; even when such a comment comes from a so-called ” conservative.” Such ” conservatives,” ( who I hope that Gilchrist has either not joined or will soon reverse his actions in their support ) include fakes such as Mark Robinson who proclaims himself to be Chairman of the AIP when he is instead a Republican mole ( as is Mark Seidenberg ) who is dedicated to the destruction of the 3rd party conservative movement in our nation.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  313. Tell the truth

    isn’t it always the case….people proclaiming ” I don’t know why everyone is attacking me, its because I am telling the truth!!?” (give me a break.) The people with the beef against Chelene Nightingale have REAL REASONS, ie: She owes them money…she lied against them…she tells lies…she uses people. TRUE wonderful people, don’t need some stooge defending their reputation. Look at all the politicians that claim “it’s a lie” and then viola…the truth was being told all along. So knock off the poor little Chelene routine…Adults know the score…and can read the writing on the wall. More truth will be told shortly. Why won’t a certain person come clean about their criminal background? A constitution candidate in CA??? yeah will see…

  314. Don Grundmann

    Mark Seidenrat – Just stop it with the fake names like ” Tell the truth ” – something which you NEVER do!! Your hero MarkRat Robinson is doing NOTHING in his so-called campaign while Chelene is speaking to people and getting endorsements throughout the state. The only person who will endorse MarkRat is a fellow rat and criminal – like Alan Keyes. You, just like Ed NooRat and Robinrat can never build anything up. Because you are all ultra corrupt liars you can never give a positive vision for our state or nation. You can only tear down with your neverending lies. Your ” adults ” are like Stupid Don Lake – a total nitwit who knows absolutely nothing of what he is talking about. Chelene is working hard everyday while liars like you and Stupid Don Lake do the only thing that you know how to do – lie. And then you write under fake names in a pathetic attempt to cover your tracks and make your rat forces appear bigger than they are. How utterly pathetic you all are.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  315. Hmmmmmmmmmmm .......... Lake

    oh, bruce@getbruce.com and whom ever else contacts me with non existent email (you jerk!)

    Let’s see ……….. your most visited thread is not worthy of a true and valid up date! You are interested in non Democan and non Republicrat activities and the truth, but not to the point of applying a quick, simple, needed band aide ??????????

    Hmmmmmmmmmm. You sure live up to your reputation. And not a word on veterans or the dead and dying of the USS Liberty ………..

    Oh, that’s right, it is dated 2009!And yet has about 400 responses! And some visits, which always begin with the initial comment, are inclluded with a bunch of postings through out 2010! Duh!

    You guys contact folks. You ask opened ended noisy questions. You leave crap email. And then you criticize you patrons/ clients/ advocates and or other interested parties!

    Oh, how was the state Long Beach convention ???????? How are the survivors of the USS Liberty doing ????????????

    You seem to be deserving of your West Coast reputation. If I, as a non Lib, am aware, what is your street cred inside the California L Circle ???????

  316. Good Ole Bruce .......... Lake

    year after year after year ………

    From: Bruce Cohen
    To: donlake@ymail.com; independent-political-report@googlegroups.com
    Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 9:47:59 PM
    Subject: Re: Bruce Cohen / Mark Peterson ???????????

    FORMER director, FORMER director!

    It’s far from our busiest post and anyway, it’s OLD.

    [Almost a dozen April 2010 responses, nearly 400 total]

    That statement was true at the time. [It was never true ………]

    And stop posting so much stuff at IPR, it could cost Chelene the election. [We can only hope!]

  317. paulie

    Let’s see ……….. your most visited thread is not worthy of a true and valid up date!

    As others have told you by email, this is far from “our most visisted thread.”

    A very small handful of people are keeping this and other old IPR threads concerning Ms. Nightingale alive in furtherance of their little faction fight.

    The readership stats don’t indicate any great interest on the part of the general public.

    No one at IPR considers it our responsibility to update threads from over a year ago with changes in people’s status in organization, especially if those threads were written by someone else and/or contain information that was true at the time.

    Oh, that’s right, it is dated 2009!And yet has about 400 responses!

    The vast majority from the same people commenting over and over in immitation of an endless circle jerk with razor blades. So what?

  318. Dan

    Can Chelene Nightingale for Governor 2010 please explain to us the potential voter about her bankruptcy filing!!! We have a right to know about THE PEOPLE who wish to represent US and this state!!! Can we not have any spin and just have a straight answer. If you spin it means you are trying to hide a very important fact TO POTENTIAL VOTERS. Either you have an answer or not. I have seen the document…so it either IS what it is…you she is trying to hide it…which if she is legit….she would know you CANT possibly hide this type of thing from your candidate profile and if you do YOU will be seen as a liar and hypocrite. So…I’l wait for answers if you spin…then we all know the truth…

  319. Don Grundmann

    ” Can Chelene Nightingale for Governor 2010 please explain to us the potential voter about her bankruptcy filing!!!”

    Response – ” Dan ” – 1) Why should she? and 2) what difference would it make to you? The inanity of your commentary demonstrates that if Chelene were to write the whole process out you would STILL attack since your real purpose is just that – to attack her on non-existent problems. I notice that you have NO comment regarding her opponent, Mark Robinson, who ( as documented at TheCorruptionOfAlanKeyes.blogspot.com ) has deliberately filed false documents with a government office in order to deceive that office; both a literal and moral crime of far greater magnitude than filing for bankruptcy, an action which unfortunately many people are doing at this time. So we have Chelene with a non-criminal action and Mark Robinson who performs a criminal action. And you only concentrate on Chelene. Why? Because you are one of the RobinRat/SeidenRat/NooRat rodents working to draw attention from your criminality and to protect it from destruction.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  320. dan

    Why should she? Why should a candidate for governor of california
    explain why they filed for bakruptcy to her supposite constituents??? Why should she explain her past experiences to the very people she seeks to elect her into OUR OFFICE OF THE STATE for the people by the people??? Why should chelene nightingale give WE the people answers as to WHY SHE SHOULD represent us and our TAX MONEY ???
    This isn’t Nightingales OFFICE… THIS OUR OFFICE….and if we don’t see fit to elct someone we won’t!! and if the candidate does not see fit answer all questions they can take a hike. THIS is not her kingdom. This is a serious office to hold and not some game for a middle aged woman seeking attention…who only feels fit to pick and choose what we know about her and her qualifications. Get off it…you arrogant bag of wind.

  321. Don Grundmann

    Stupid Don Lake – Yes, Dan’s vote counts as much as mine. The vote of any fool, you or ” Dan,” counts as much. But ” Dan ” is obviously a rodent aligned with the Alan Keyes corruption faction of the AIP as he attacks Chelene for being in bankruptcy, an extremely common occurance, but says nothing about super rat rodent Mark Robinsons deliberate filing of fake documents with the Secretary of Satate office; an act of both moral and legal criminality. Hence ” Dan ” is obviously yet another fake and liar in the mold of all of your heroes SeidenRat, RobinRat, and NooRat.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  322. On to your little games

    trying to hijack webpages and change wording in others comments shows your character. Not going to work…on to you….game on

  323. ___________

    best is yet to be seen. Whens the primary oh yeah june 8th……
    hang on kids….its going to be a bumpy ride :)

  324. -

    Don G. quit grovelling on your knees for Chelene Frightingale and Shill Lussenheide! They are you using you dude! You buy into their crapola..they are creeps and freaks. (I suppose bird of a feather flock together) grow a pair Don g. You look weak trying to defend this scum.

  325. megans law

    Why is don grundmann obsessed with children? Why does a 50 year old umarried man…obsess about children?? Can someone answer this?
    I think he needs to be investigated and his computer seized.

  326. Don Grundmann

    ” megans law ” – Mark Seidenberg, you, yet again, show how sick and cowardly you are in hiding behind other names for spreading your sickness. I have challenged you to a debate to be shown on youtube but you cowardly refuse and then spread your sick comments under countless fake names. You will not debate since that would expose your complete corruption to everyone. How psychotic and pathetic you are!

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  327. Don Grundmann

    to The Fool – Chelene Nightingale is working 24/7 on a campaign to save the state and nation from the virtually endless corruption and attacks upon them; corruption and attacks which you, as The Fool, endorse, promote, and advance. She works with a positive vision of helping our citizens both now and especially in the future. YOU do NOTHING except spread outright lies via your nitwit commentary. YOU, and especially the evil that you endorse and promote, have NO vision for the future. You DO NOTHING except to tear down with endless lies. It is truly YOU that are the ” do nothing.”

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  328. Don Grundmann

    to The Fool – 1) Chelene, to my knowledge, has never, since the campaign started, said that she is a ” current ” Director of SOS. So obviously she is the ” former ” Director. That would be self-evident – except to The Fool. 2) As The Fool you can be counted on to ignore facts inclusive of my being the duly elected Vice-Chairman of the AIP despite any comments from The Fool or anyone else. 3) The AIP is, despite the continued ignoring of facts by The Fool, the California branch of the Constitution Party.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  329. Democrat in Arizona

    Re-reading this, is Nightingale with the AIP or constitution party? I saw her on a show and the label said Chelene Nightingale Constitution party candidate. CP is not ballot qualified in CA is it? anyone with some answers?

  330. Good luck ----- Fly to Palmdale .......... Lake

    Answers, real answers:

    There is an American Independent Party in California since the late 1960s. It was FORMERLY associated with the national Constitution Party. It is now associated with the national America’s Independent Party.

    I have been told the only California Constitution Party in history is a ‘one off’ edition in 1952. I have been told that the inspiration for this effort was General MacArthur and a bid for President after Ike won the GOP top half of the Eisenhouser / Nixon ticket.

    Beware of ANY THING Doctor J. Grundmann, DC says. If he shakes your hand, be sure to count them after wards. Since 2004 he has gone from odd ball to complete ‘nutter’!

    ——– Don Lake, former Grundmann supporter, 619.420.0209

  331. Good luck ----- Fly to Palmdale .......... Lake

    Let us Loyal Opposition of the evil Establishment Duopoly be better than they. Our mantra need not be, ‘we are just a bad as the Democans and the Republicrats’

    The height of hype:

    “Why the Constitution Party of California?
    America and California need the leadership of the Constitution Party of California. We pledge to:”

  332. Good luck ----- Fly to Palmdale .......... Lake

    Decent Reform Party of California member, a sad sad shell of a third party activist since *personal knowledge*

    from: http://www.constitutionpartyca.org

    “Welcome to the WWW home for Constitution Party members and other Constitutionalists in California!

    This is an informal web site operated by David Christensen, and has no formal connection with the Constitution Party National Committee.

    Content and viewpoints presented here are the sole responsibility of their respective authors.

    The purpose of this web site is to provide a tool for pro-Declaration of Independence, pro-Constitution, and pro-Bill of Rights voters to:

    Identify and organize ourselves.
    Debate issues and the Constitution Party platform.
    Volunteer to run for elected office on the Constitution Party platform.
    Volunteer to support such candidates.

    Candidates and supporters should post on the forum for the office(s) of their choosing.

    If you would like an account or need a forum created, please e-mail the webmaster at webmaster@constitutionpartyca.org.

    This web site is a work in progress and is powered by the “

  333. Don Grundmann

    Democrat in Arizona – A) Chelene Nightingale is the gubinatorial candidate of the American Independent Party. B) The American Independent Party is the California branch of the Constitution Party. C) The AIP is under attack by a group of political moles/operatives who claim that the AIP is no longer with the Constitution Party but is instead affiliated with another national party. This battle is being fought out in the courts between the REAL AIP, the non-corruption faction of which I am a representative, and the corruption faction of the party which initiated the attack and continues it to this day. The facts regarding the attack upon the party can be found at TheCorruptionOfAlanKeyes.blogspot.com. D) Don Lake, of comments # 415 through # 417 above, is a member of the corruption faction of the party. E) His last sentence comment of #415 above is to deflect from his own continuous and outright lying regarding not only Chelene Nightingale but virtually countless other aspects of the AIP and CP.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  334. Jeff Bolten

    Hey, I have been reading about this Chelene Nightingale bankrupt and etc, I have never heard of the Constitution Party, do we have one in california anyway? This looks like a real stupid argument, I don’t think anyone in california would vote for people in these non-parties. Whole thing reads like a bunch of idiots.

  335. Don Grundmann

    Mr. Bolton – You simply need to be educated regarding the need for 3rd parties, especially conservative ones such as the REAL AIP ( the non-corruption branch of the American Independent Party ) and the Constitution Party which indeed is a party within our state. Chelene Nightingale is a wonderful and courageous candidate for Governor who is fighting to preserve our state against its collapse which is upon us through the actions of the Big 2 parties. Incidentally numerous Presidents of our nation suffered through bankruptcy in addition to the many millions of our citizens, myself included, who have had to endure the process. I believe that Jackson, Jefferson, and Cleveland were 3 of them ( there were more ) but I may have the names wrong. The bottom line is the the REAL AIP and the Constitution Party have the principles and policies which will return prosperity to our state and nation.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution party

  336. Jeff Bolten

    Mr. grundman, So she did file for bankruptcy? I don’t know that it is something to just sweep under a carpet. Thats, not a good thing, regardless if someone else has filed. Didn’t the party know this before they wanted her to run. The press like to get a hold of this stuff, and it probably won’t come off real good. I will have to read more about this before I would commit. thanks for your time.

  337. Don Grundmann

    Mr. Bolten – I am unaware when the process of bankruptcy developed relative to the timeline of Chelene’s campaign. Many people have experienced bankruptcy, especially during our difficult economic times. Hence to experience it is, unfortunately, quite common. Such experience is no disqualification for the seeking of elective office. I would far rather have Chelene Nightingale with her wonderful principles and continuing fighting spirit for the people of our state and nation than the flip-flopping lighter-than-air principles of Meg Whitman or Jerry Brown with their personal wealth of millions. In point of fact the AIP has experienced 2 candidates in the latest primary who, in my opinion, were actually outright criminals and performed criminal actions. These individuals, Mark Robinson and Ed Noonan, deliberately filed fake documents with the office of the Secretary of State of California; an actual criminal action, of fraud, as compared to the non-criminal event of filing for bankruptcy. Hence the AIP Senate candidate of the moment, Ed Noonan, has performed actions involved in criminal grand theft fraud by filing false documents with the SOS office. Such criminal activities are indeed fodder for the press to expose, though they indeed have ( to this moment ) been unfortunately ” swept under the rug,” while in contrast Chelene has done nothing criminal of any fashion and has simply sought economic relief in a lawful process which occurs everyday in legal venues throughout our nation. I urge you to more fully investigate Chelene and her principles. I believe that you will find her to be an outstanding candidate of great courage, integrity, and honor. Lastly, my own documentation of the criminal actions and corruption of Robinson and Noonan can be found at TheCorruptionOfAlanKeyes.blogspot.com. If you have any questions or comments you are welcome to call me at 510-7600968. I hope that this note finds you well. Best to you,

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution party

  338. Good luck ----- on the current corrupt system .... Lake

    Patriots, Two Marks and an Ed! Thank you guys! And shame on money grubbing * Nightmare Nightingale and her FRAUD concerning her Bankruptcy!

    * check her ‘pay to play’ web site; and speaking of ‘SOS': check out both the California Secretary of State site and the nasty things the legitimate folks at the current ‘Save Our State’ administration mention about this nasty ‘wicked witch of the West’ !

    Investigate Nightmare Nightingale’s ‘principals’ thru her actions, her fruits!

    Grundmann and the [sick, injured, hobbled, imploding, California – less] Constitution Party. Well then buzz off! Put the ‘California Constitution Party’ on the political map!

    ‘Chelene Nightingale joins the Constitution Party’ ——- well do not let little ole me stand between her and the door, that portal away from the California American Independent Party!

  339. Jeff Bolten

    Thanks for your time Mr. Grundmann, I don’t read much of any type of leadership roles Ms. Nightingale has held, has she ever held an elected office? I am concerned because we had Arnold in office and he did not do very much, and he had lots of money and backers. How do you think a relative unknown person with a light resume would do better for Ca. I Just lost my job, and I am not sure someone that is a homeschooling mother, would be able to get things done in a legislature that has dems and reps, and many toehr types with a lot of experience. I think its noble of her to run, but I am not sure of the wisdom. thanks for listening

  340. Good luck and lessons from history ----- on the current corrupt system .... Lake

    426 responses so far ?
    1 Trent Hill // Mar 15, 2009 at 5:13 pm

    “Trent Hill, the Louisianna Republican: To be clear, she joined the Constitution Party and registered into the American Independent Party–since she’s in California. Look for Nightingale to become a big player in third party politics over the coming years. She’s a motivate mover and shaker ……………”

    Jeff Bolten per Trent Hill’s above hype and cow poop: So what? I was motivated and ended up as the initial, kick off speaker at all three state wide ‘Dump Davis’ rallies (2003).

    So I can get up (with out a SAG card, even) in front of the state capitol and lawn full of pissed off Patriots and have words spill out of my mouth with out choking up or throwing up. Big Deal!

    Plz check out their own words! Review Nightmare Nightingale’s own, specific, unique web sites, and the current folks at Save Our State. The same for the rogues’ gallery of Bill Lussenheide, Don Grundmann, and Jim King.

    The fruits of the tree! The fruits of the tree, and with Chelene Ward Nightingale ‘s posse of ‘true believers’ ——— the nuts as well!

  341. Don Grundmann

    Mr. Bolten – Certainly you pose legitimate questions. I would present that principles are extremely important and indeed are the ” trump card.” While she has not held an elective office I feel that her principles are her primary asset as it is these which will provide guidance for the policy decisions which she will make. Our state is in such dire straits that I give Chelene equal credibility for having not been elected to office as for anyone who has been elected. Hence I say that her principles automatically make her far superior to Jerry Brown, a candidate who has been elected many times, and to Meg Whitman, a candidate who has never been elected. She is beholden to no special interest of any type and will not, and cannot be, bought and paid for as countless standard politicians have been. The peripheral proof of her value lies in the attacks upon her by Don Lake above and especially by the people he mentions in his screed – ” Two Marks and an Ed.” These persons are, as I document at TheCorruptionOfAlanKeyes.blogspot.com., involved in an extremely large criminal enterprise; far greater in magnitude than what appears on the surface. They oppose Chelene because she is a threat to the continuance of their criminality and they recognize on their own small scale ( yet large for other reasons ) that as a woman of integrity and honor they must attack her or their criminal organization can and will be destroyed. No other political figure instills such fear in them and this is a measure of what Chelene will bring to the office of Governor – a totally unique virtue, honesty, and integrity which will revolutionize the office and our state by actually confronting such corruption as represented by these individuals and magnified through the whole state. Chelene will go where no Governor has gone before in restoring integrity to not only the office of Governor but to the political process of our state as a whole. This is just one of the many wonderful things which will occur when this unlikely candidate of extreme honesty, courage, and integrity brings a new day to our state through the expression of her principles into action.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution party

  342. _

    This was found online Chelene Nightingale for governor 2010/Legal Defense Fund. This is how she registered her campaign donations with the SEC. She can now use the donations she bilks from senior citizens to pay her debts from lawsuits that were filed against her for non payment of loans. This is pure and simple fraud. This is one sick and twisted woman, and supporters should be made aware, that this is thr reason she HAS NO MONEY to run a campaign, she has used this money to pay her debtors. What a horrible and criminal thing to do. This is not a smear, BUT A WAKE UP CALL please people don’t be duped with her fake “christian talk..this is a devious person google this “Nightingale for governor 2010 committee to elect/legal defense fund….then google “Chelene Nightingale Minutemen”. This is a sickening side that she has tried to hide but the truth is prevailing . Thank you

  343. -

    I saw her fuck and suck a PIG on video. A pig fucking and sucking a pig! Will there be little Nightingale piglets? Stay tuned….

    She even stuck her tongue up the pig’s asshole and drank his piss! What a PIG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  344. Don Grundmann

    To readers of this thread – comments # 429 and 430 above are written by Mark Seidenberg under his typical usage of a fake name or even a non-name.

    In regard to 429 – This is a total lie. Chelene Nightingale has ” bilked ” no one and has committed no crime of any sort. It is Seidenberg himself who has engaged in criminal activity by deliberately conspiring to file fake documents with the California Secretary of State office for the purpose of committing Grand Theft Fraud. His criminality is documented at TheCorruptionOfAlanKeyes.blogspot.com.

    In regard to comment 430 – This is a perfect illustration of the total depravity of the Robinson criminal gang of which Seidenberg is the ” moneybags ” connection to the handlers and controllers of the gang inclusive of the ADL and the SPLC. Only the sickest psychotic could or, especially, would write such utterly sick trash. Yet it is the perfect window into the soiciopathic mind of both Seidenberg and the criminal gang in its entirety. Words cannot express how completely sick and revolting Mark Seidenberg is. He shows it himself in his utter, complete, and total depravity. This is only a small part of his continuing attacks upon Chelene and this is not the first time, but rather part of an entire series, where he has expressed his depravity so clearly. He spreads his depraved attacks upon Chelene over the entire Internet.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution party

  345. WHERES THE MONEY CHELENE

    Where’s the patriot the mother the “christian” where’s the money CHELENE??? Where’s the money chelene…..why is the campaign broke chelene??? What happened to the campaign donations chelene??? Why have you bilked people to pay your “legal defesne Fund Chelene..WHERES the coward chelene…??? Why can’ Chelene Nightingale crawl out of her hole and address this issue…..Nightingale You are UNETHICAL LYING SCUM! All we want to know is why chelene can’t speak and why she can’t explain Where’s the money???? why is this??

  346. WHERES THE MONEY CHELENE

    I see there are impersonators #432 is not Don lake…thats okay this means the CRIMINALS ARE MAD>>>>>lol mad they were caught! Come on Chelene Nightingale lets hear from you..wheres the money chelene…this is going to be all over the internet faster than you can try to stop it..it will keep coming till we get an answer….Come on Nightingale Where is the CAMPAIGN MONEY?? AND why is the campaign broke…….???its so simple…just answer…..

  347. Don Grundmann

    And here we have Mark Seidenberg, yet again writing under a fake name in 432 and 433, still shamelessly attacking and lying about Chelene for nothing while his own actual criminality is well documented. Not the slightest trace of shame or conscience. Truly a psychotic sociopath.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution party

  348. SHOCKER

    This just in GOOGLE THIS

    Delphiseer.blogspot.com/2008/11/sos-leadership-chelene-failed-actress.html

    For picture of your princess Chelene Nightingale. Told you so. more to come.

  349. Nightingale porn fan

    Do you have the videos of her getting down and dirty in the barn yard? I heard those are really rough and raunchy, more sick and extreme than anything else that has ever been posted on the internet. Also is it true that you are going to post them online for the whole world to see on 12.11.10 at 09:08:07?

  350. wikileaks

    Well, well the truth is finally here. I google that url and found a disgusting picture of Nightingale. What kind of fraud and “christian” is this woman. Governor? rofl

  351. Cody Quirk

    Congrats, you sick fucks are making her look even better with your vulgar BS. Chelene got third place- get over it!

  352. Barb c

    Nightingales true colors are shown from that photo of her true “work” So she was involved with the porn industry.
    Pictures don’t lie.

  353. Pictures don't lie, but you do

    Since when is a lingerie shot “porn”?

    For real porn (and deadly cancer causing radiation) you have to go to the TSA.

  354. Don Grundmann

    ” Barb c “/” wikileaks “/ ” Nightingale porn fan “/” SHOCKER ” – another batch of fake names by ADL/SPLC agent and Republican Party mole Mark Siedenberg. The faked picture which is claimed to be Chelene? Yawn. The unique thing in this situation is that even if it was her she still has galaxies more integity and honor than an outright traitor to the nation like Mark Seidenberg who is attacking her because of her recent acceptance as leader of a coalition of southern California patriots. Since it is the objective of his ADL/SPLC masters to destroy the conservative and patriot movements in the nation he will do anything to accomplish their objective. He is a traitor to the nation and an enemy of humanity. Thank God for a true patriot and freedom fighter – Chelene Nightingale.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

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