Posted at LP.org by Donny Ferguson. Reposted to IPR by Paulie.
A 43-year-old man with Down’s syndrome painfully starved to death for 26 days after doctors in Britain’s socialized National Health Service simply forgot to feed him.
Martin Ryan died, according to The Daily Mail, “starving and in agony” in an NHS hospital after doctors failed to give him a feeding tube. Ryan had difficulties communicating with doctors, which led to him suffering a slow and brutal death from starvation.
By the time government doctors discovered their error, it was too late to fit a tube. He was left to starve to death for another five days.
“This is another deeply worrying example of how the Government has yet to get to grips with providing first-class care for everyone, including people with disabilities,” Tory spokesperson Anne Milton told the Mail.
The failure to supply an ordered feeding tube is just one of many cases in which people with disabilities and require extra effort to treat are essentially left to die by sub-standard government-run health care, according to the Mail.
After all, under socialized medicine it’s not like the government could be put out of business or lose patients to a hospital that doesn’t kill its patients.
A soon-to-be-released Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman’s report blasts the government-run health system, and advocates for the disabled point to the rash of deaths as proof the NHS discriminates against disabled patients.
What’s even more worrying is the fact this is the quality of care many in Congress and now the White House want to impose on America. I often say that "socialized medicine makes you sick." Sadly, it now proves fatal.
Cutting through the dialogue, it appears that Ferguson is creating the kindergarten-level argument of “if one apple in the bushel is bad, then all the apples in the bushel are bad” by using one extreme case to indict an entire system.
Socialist system, private system, competitive system, Starfleet system, whatever–it’s a false argument.
Most libertarians are far past kindergarten-level arguments. It’s one of the things that separates us from the statists of all stripes.
The real solution here, in the private, non-government variety, is to learn the lessons of why that guy died, and then work to make their care processes better so others don’t have the same tragedy.
Don’t focus on who runs it so much as how it’s run.
paulie, you are quite civil and a pleasure to share ideas with.
I support the cannoli approach to discourse!
I dunno if its LARGE numbers–but certainly Paulie is not the only anarcho-capitalist in the world. I’d estimate there are at least 25,000.
Paulie, I respect your view,
I respect yours as well, and I hope I haven’t said anything to convey the impression that I don’t.
I see no evidence that large numbers of people want radical, near term OR long term change. Most people want changes IN DIRECTION, for most people are “conservative” about the status quo. We’re not a nation of radical firebrands.
I agree with the idea of directional change, as long as it is consistently in the direction of less government coercion and more voluntary cooperative solutions.
How fast or how far that change will go is a separate question, and not what I was trying to get at. I would prefer a soft landing if possible. It’s not always possible. I would prefer to go all the way to zero, but it’s a somewhat academic point to argue over that when we are in our present situation, with someone who wants to go 90% or something along those lines of the way with me.
Most change happens as a punctuated equilibrium, and my sense is that such a time of punctuation is probably coming soon. Whether the change that happens will end up being in a libertarian or totalitarian direction remains to be seen.
Not my point to argue anarchism or minarchism.
I meant that government is always inefficient, and creating whole new problems that would not otherwise exist, whether it’s defense contracting, police/security, health care, post office, DMV, schools, whatever – if you think there is some area where nothing else will do, that’s up to you, and not where I want to spend my time right now arguing.
Paulie, I respect your view, but making the case for wholesale voluntaryist anarchism has far less appeal than broad-based lessarchism, IMO. I surely agree that SOME government functions can be abolished in the near term, but making the case that ALL of them can sounds like a lonely pursuit.
I see no evidence that large numbers of people want radical, near term OR long term change. Most people want changes IN DIRECTION, for most people are “conservative” about the status quo. We’re not a nation of radical firebrands.
my favorite is foreign wars, and military spending.
Great point. But I don’t think most people understand it from a misspending viewpoint. Sure, everyone knows about the thousand dollar hammers and toilet seats, and a lot of people oppose the current wars.
But the former just becomes a “cute story” while the latter, to them, just indicates that “we” should shift that same spending to social welfare, infrastructure, environmental protection, education, etc.
The massive systemic extent to which the government wastes billions and billions of taxpayers dollars in ‘defense’ contracting, and why it would misallocate the money just as badly in the social spending arena if the money was shifted over, is not readily apparent to those who have not had a great deal of personal experience or policy study in this area.
the IRS and tax code are god awful. the schools I think still resonate, though I take your point.
Yes, filling out tax forms is a nightmare. A great example I did not think about, ironically, because I had enough and stopped filing about ten years ago (and no, nobody’s tried to put me in jail for it). But I still remember trying to calculate my tax as a self employed ‘small business’ independent contractor. I no longer remember the exact form numbers, but it was something along the lines of use information on Form A to calculate Form B. Use information on form B to calculate form C, and use information on form C to calculate form A.
Dealing with the police – whether as a suspect or as a crime victim – has always been a nightmare too. I’ve had to do both on more than one occasion, but again an example that most people can’t relate to, other than perhaps traffic stops and parking tickets.
but – mostly – I prefer to point out that government takes 40% and how insidiously they do it.
I think we have to come back to how they misspend it in every conceivable area, and how this is not just something that putting the “right people” in charge can fix.
So long as people think that taxes are necessary to serve laudable goals such as protecting the country from the bad guys, educating kids, protecting the environment, helping poor people, and so on, making arguments based on self-interest (they are ripping us off) or convenience (filling out tax forms is a huge pain) is of limited appeal.
We really have to focus on how government does bad things with our money, mismanages the good things it tries to do horribly, and how each and every thing it does can be done better through voluntary means…and how this has always, is always, and necessarily always will be the case, each and every time, no matter what.
my favorite is foreign wars, and military spending.
the IRS and tax code are god awful. the schools I think still resonate, though I take your point.
but – mostly – I prefer to point out that government takes 40% and how insidiously they do it.
My experience is they still suck. But what examples of government bureaucracies that most people have had to interact with would you use?
I could cite the welfare agencies, but most people have never been on the receiving end of their “compassion.” I could talk about business licensing, but most people have not run businesses. The government schools are rather crappy, but most people have nothing to compare them to. Libraries are innocuous, unless your research interests are “of interest” to certain other government agencies. Got suggestions?
FWIW, I’d suggest losing the DMV and PO as statist bogeymen. My observation and experience is their service is much better than it was 20 years ago. We’ve got much bigger targets to illustrate the case for more liberty.
hiding behind his anonymity
He is not anonymous. We know his full name, several working email addresses, street address, etc.
abuses the frak out of everyone who doesn’t think precisely like him.
Most of us who have been here a while usually ignore him, other than to warn new people.
My position is that only in a country with a flourishing economy could such a concept as “libertarianism” exist.
Would you like links to libertarian groups in third world countries? There are quite a few…
For example, see
http://www.isil.org/resources/fnn/2006sept/prague-conference.html#Africa%20Panel
we really cannot function giving nothing to the community and taking nothing from it.
You are talking about atomism, not libertarianism. Libertarianism merely posits that the giving and taking be voluntary.
So you invest a portion of that self-ownership in the well-being of your neighbors, who likewise invest a portion of theirs in you.
Absolutely. In fact, that is exactly why I am a libertarian.
that’s what LJ’s particular variety of libertarianism is — it’s just “screw the poor; screw the poor; screw the poor”.
Why would you care about some troll’s variety of “libertarianism”? For starters, he is not a libertarian, despite his screen name. Notice when he says “My first act as potus would be to track Paulie down and toss him into the Hudson
…As I fight to cut taxes I would give Paulie 100% tax.”
We do have a free speech policy here, which I favor, but that does not mean we stand behind the opinions of silly trolls who comment here.
Based on my own personal experience dealing with DMV and PO, absolutely yes,
Your experiences must be a lot different than mine or anyone I’ve ever talked to, and I have been in every US state except Hawaii, a majority of the country’s 3,000 or so counties, and have experienced a wide variety of socioeconomic conditions during the 29 years since I’ve been primarily based in the part of North America claimed as its turf by the armed gang which calls itself the US government.
Leymann,
Then you deserve the diseases you get.
The DMV is a terrible service organization. Compare it to something like an insurance agency office, where there are never lines–but just as much paperwork.
Paulie wrote: “Do you want the people who run the DMV and the post office in charge of your operation or your kid’s blood transfusion?”
Based on my own personal experience dealing with DMV and PO, absolutely yes, especially when compared to my experience with private doctors and hospitals.
“I’m removing this site from my bookmarks.”
The SITE didnt do anything. Actually, it did–it covered your candidacy.
Alan,
We all intend to ignore LJ–no one takes him seriously. So I hope you’ll understand that he is just a foolish kid and stick around.
Ugh. I suspect I’ll just stop coming here. Can’t get a civilized discussion started because LJ just camps out on the thread, hiding behind his anonymity, and abuses the frak out of everyone who doesn’t think precisely like him.
Which means, I suspect, everyone.
I’m dying to know if this is how he has live discussions. My guess is, no — because absolutely no one wastes two words on him in the real world.
My position is that only in a country with a flourishing economy could such a concept as “libertarianism” exist. Its basic tenet — that you are the ultimate owner of yourself — is a good thing. But, in a civilized society, we really cannot function giving nothing to the community and taking nothing from it.
So you invest a portion of that self-ownership in the well-being of your neighbors, who likewise invest a portion of theirs in you. It isn’t “okay” to simply not give a crap about your fellow human being — and that’s what LJ’s particular variety of libertarianism is — it’s just “screw the poor; screw the poor; screw the poor”.
I’m removing this site from my bookmarks.
http://delawarelibertarian.blogspot.com/2009/01/question-for-single-payer-advocates.html
socialist ideas are a cancer and I think and believe and know that the world is a better place without them
😉
As I fight to cut taxes I would give Paulie 100% tax.
My first act as potus would be to track Paulie down and toss him into the Hudson
Why don’t you go back to that country,? Paulie. We don’t need you here.
All you have to do is compare the VA system with privately run clinics and hospitals. All the incentives are wrong in a government-run system. Do you want the people who run the DMV and the post office in charge of your operation or your kid’s blood transfusion?
I lived in a whole country that was run this way. It was a nightmare. Everything was screwed up all over the place. My parents were lucky to be able to get out. I don’t recommend it.
Privately run or government run these things do happen because human beings make mistakes.
The history of medical malpractice in this country is ample evidence that government does not have a monopoly on carelessness or negligence. In fact, if carelessness, incompetence, and negligence are the standard by which we judge institutional entities, I dare say the Libertarian Party would make England’s National Health Service look like a model of efficiency.
Alan, I completely agree. There is nothing about government health care qua government health care that caused this.
Its a damn shame though.
Nevertheless, I hardly believe that if I trot out a case of negligent care in a private hospital that I have “proven” private health care to be inherently substandard.
This is absolutely horrible. I must admit, even though I do favor universal healthcare, one of my chief worries is that we might wind up creating castes of first- and second-class patients. I’ve long known about the horrors of the UK’s NHS and it’s a perfect example of everything I want to avoid.
But the question remains: does “government-provided” inherently mean “substandard”?
In 2008 we saw so many examples of private-sector entities that were just as territorial, just as bureaucratic, just as dysfunctional and far, far less accountable than any bureaucracy could ever be. Private industry, held up for so long as the shining example to which government should aspire… turned out to be a cesspool.
Personally, I saw it coming, mainly because government has the political salience factor that business lacks — every action or inaction has the potential to become a public scandal. But does this translate to the health sector?
Discuss? Civilly?
It did not happen in a privately run hospital. It happened in one of your despicable socialist hospitals, you communist shit.
Could happen just as easily in a privately run hospital. This doctor was probably some sort of conservative or libertarian who wanted to get rid of the healthcare system.
Most disabled people support national healthcare and government assistance. End of story.