65 responses so far ↓

• 1 TheOriginalAndy // Dec 5, 2008 at 2:42 pm

  I wonder if they are including any petitioners that they ripped off in pay such as Angela O’Dell and Jake Witmer into the debt equation (they stiffed Jake out of $900 in expenses and they apparently did not pay Angela O’Dell for signatures that she collected).

• 2 paulie cannoli // Dec 5, 2008 at 2:44 pm

  No. See debt itemization.

• 3 coming on the back of the LP // Dec 5, 2008 at 3:43 pm

  OMFG. Only a quarter million bucks in debt?

  HA HA HA

  I never laughed so hard in my life @ Loser Posers…

• 4 paulie cannoli // Dec 5, 2008 at 4:10 pm

  That does seem on the high side. Is that the right way to read these numbers?

• 5 paulie cannoli // Dec 5, 2008 at 4:16 pm

  Arthur DiBianca:

  Maybe it’s worth pointing out that the corresponding report for the Badnarik 2004 campaign showed $11,000 cash, and zero debt.

  (I worked as a low-paid office helper at the Austin HQ, so I feel a little pride in helping not to rack up debt.)

• 6 VirtualGalt // Dec 5, 2008 at 4:19 pm

  I think so. $38k cash and $234k outstanding bills. Being an unsecured creditor of a losing campaign is not a great position to be in.

  Frankly I’m more concerned with the LP’s current cash balance, which if the published documents are accurate is approximately zero at present.

• 7 paulie cannoli // Dec 5, 2008 at 4:22 pm

  47 k authoring fee? Nice.

• 8 VirtualGalt // Dec 5, 2008 at 4:29 pm

  Hmm… does seem steep for ghostwriting. But, as I said, if I were an unsecured creditor I wouldn’t be waiting by the mailbox.

• 9 paulie cannoli // Dec 5, 2008 at 4:45 pm

  Chris Moore:

  $47,000 authoring fee? That sounds like book-ghostwriting money, not just run of the mill press releases and website copy. Did Bovard ghost Barr’s book? If so, why in the world would this be a campaign expense?

  Nothing looks completely unreasonable in terms of what is owed. We could argue over political consulting fees, but there is actually nothing out of the ordinary with respect to that.

  What is really annoying is that they knew damn well what they were raising, and they should have known that no magic cash was going to start raining down in the last few months. That the campaign racked up THAT MUCH debt is amazing. I was thinking maybe $20-30k. Overshooting on spending and missing fundraising goals happens. But 20% of total fundraising!?

• 10 Former LP Life Member // Dec 5, 2008 at 5:11 pm

  Of course Bovard ghost-wrote the book. Didn’t everyone know that?

• 11 coming on the back of the LP // Dec 5, 2008 at 5:14 pm

  Is he getting royalty checks?

• 12 paulie cannoli // Dec 5, 2008 at 5:28 pm

  FLPLM,

  Good point elsewhere:

  I wonder if the Barr PAC (that gave all that money to Republicans) gave a contribution to the Barr for President Campaign.

  I am guessing no.

• 13 songster7 // Dec 5, 2008 at 6:05 pm

  looks like just another Browne/Cloud family business to me … glad they never got a cent this time from my pockets

• 14 JimDavidson // Dec 5, 2008 at 7:13 pm

  I’m curious whether anyone can parse these debts and find any evidence that the Barr campaign admits to owing Angela O’Dell thousands of dollars for her work in ballot access petition gathering in West Virginia.

• 15 HumbleTravis // Dec 6, 2008 at 12:48 am

  Bovard’s books are excellent. If he was writing for Barr then why was the campaign’s libertarianism so timid? Meaning why pay a writer who is more radical than you if you are trying to appeal to a more “mainstream” crowd?

• 16 JimDavidson // Dec 6, 2008 at 3:07 am

  @15 Bovard’s pearls before Barr’s swine?

• 17 George Phillies // Dec 6, 2008 at 10:52 am

  Paulie,

  You are reading it right.

  I am amused to note that the outcome here could be read as a traditional Republican values solution, namely that they raised $140,000 and inadvertently spent not $140,000 but $410,000.

  In reading the disbursements, the B document (this is the D document) anything labeled “memo” or “see below” is part of a reimbursement for advanced funds, and does not count because it is also listed elsewhere.

  I will be more interested to see what people can parse as actual money spent to do campaigning. The campaign sore is bumper stickers and the like being sold to volunteers. IT is the web pages. Go on.

  George

• 18 Angelia O'Dell // Jan 25, 2009 at 8:25 pm

  I am writing to let you guys know that I am owed 3,500 and the Oklahoma Lp is owed 1,500, Oklahomans for Ballot Access is owed 4,000 from the Barr campaign money that we will not see after being told by Shane and Russ we would get everything back. They broke both groups. And I was in WV and I was there over the Jake ordeal and the guy was paid everything he was owed. He took off and would not contact anyone and they wrote him off and than he shows up. He was prepaid for everything. And this is a fact. I was in the room the whole time he was there I know what happened.

• 19 Matt D. Harris // Jan 25, 2009 at 8:53 pm

  Hi Angela,
  I’d like to speak to you if possible. Please give me a call at 662-934-7060. I tried to call the number on your website, but it had been disconnected.
  Best regards, Matt

• 20 Prospective Advertiser // Jan 25, 2009 at 9:25 pm

  Good to hear from you Angelia. I’ve tried on several occasions to bring this matter to the attention of the LP, the Barr campaign, and groups that pretend to have an interest in openness and transparency in the LP.

  Obviously, it is despicable that the Barr campaign owes all this money. I think Shane Cory is a worthless, despicable liar and thief. He should be shunned by everyone with any decency. He and that scumbag Aaron Starr have much in common.

• 21 libertariangirl // Jan 25, 2009 at 9:36 pm

  Im glad we held a Barr fundraiser where we kept 100% of the $75 tickets , which as it turns out was more than they raised at the dinner.

• 22 Prospective Advertiser // Jan 25, 2009 at 9:46 pm

  libertariangirl, any decision not to trust Barr’s people with money was a wise choice.

• 23 libertariangirl // Jan 25, 2009 at 9:51 pm

  funny thing is we made sure they got their donations and a week later Shane called me asking Nevada to check and see is we accidentally took their donation envelope. Apparently their activist who took it said he was sure he left it and could not find it . Shane says” theres an envelope with $4000 in it laying around . Later they retracted that saying they made less than 1,000.
  thats a big discrepancy , go figure:)

• 24 Jake Witmer // Jan 25, 2009 at 10:25 pm

  Angelia, you were in the room, but you are clearly clueless about the reality of the situation, or the particulars of my employment arrangement with the Barr Campaign. You claim that “I would not contact anyone”. Well, after the contract was breached, and Verney and Cory were looking for ways to back out of it and leave us holding the bag, you’re right: I wouldn’t contact anyone at that point, because it would have been self-destructive, and I’m not a masochist.

  I’m not the enemy here. The entire thing was mismanaged into the ground by Shane Cory (with advice from Eric Dondero the halfwit). When it was time for Russell Verney to correct Shane’s mistakes, he simply exacerbated them by withholding payment from all the workers that Shane had failed. You might have seen Cory having temper tantrums “because I wouldn’t call him”. But what you failed to see (even though you were “in the room”) is that every time I called him, with lifesaving advice about how he could save the drive, petitioners ready for hire, incoices for money he owed me as per our contractual agreement, etc… he ranted and raved like a stressed out lunatic, told me I was “no good at coordinating”, and threatened to fire me, after further reneging on his oral contract, as well as his promise to provide a written contract.

  In short the pressures of coordinating a petition drive from an air-conditioned hotel room, are simply too much for Shane.

  Were all expenses supposed to be paid up front? Yes, according to my oral contract, they were. Were they? No. If they had not agreed to pay them, I never would have come to WV, because I had no money at the time. If you got a worse deal than what I was supposed to get, then I’m sorry, but that has nothing at all to do with me. Clearly, you’re buying into a lot of BS from someone.

  Cory and you apparently have no idea how easy success would have been in West Virginia. Instead of taking my work and my contacts and succeeding, they wanted to treat me like a rank amateur, send my petitioners away unhired, and fail. If you think criticizing me is a smart thing to do, when I’ve always been on your side of the argument, you’re in the wrong. That said, I hope that gutterscum Russell Verney pays you. Heck, I hope that Shane Cory pays you out of his own pocket (since it took a demand from Bill Redpath to force him to do exactly that for me.)

  I had a long and fairly honorable work history for the LP prior to 2008. Since that time, Cory and Sean Haugh have attempted to systematically undo my reputation, due to “behind-the-scenes” manipulations of Scott Kohlhaas. Kohlhaas is a longtime friend of Eric Dondero, since they were both “draft resisters” in the 1980s. Kohlhaas stole a bunch of money from several petitioners in 2006, and then tried to ruin their reputations when they demanded payment. The evidence is online here on page 14 of this document:
  http://www.lp.org/archives/lnc20070721.pdf

  Enter Shane Cory, a militant mental midget in the model of Eric Dondero who doesn’t know how to talk to people as if they are human beings, who was promoted grossly beyond his level of competence by the repugnant Barr campaign and its idiot manager, Russell “snubgate” Verney. Shane and I crossed words because he simply didn’t want to succeed in WV. His email criticism of me that he sent to Sean Haugh (someone even less competent than himself) began my attempted blacklisting in the LP. At this time, Scott Kohlhaas was performing the job description of Sean since Sean can barely get out of bed on his own. Scott/Sean decided to use my spat with Cory to attempt to destroy my reputation.

  The 2008 destruction of reputations, hard work, and ballot access by Cory, Verney, Haugh, and Kohlhaas was legendary. They used most of their time and the authority of their titles for infighting and skimming profits from the LP.

  My delay in payment from Cory, and the attacks on my reputation from the others basically meant that I was forced to incur additional expenses that resulted in my not making a dime off of WV, (and WV failing to get on the ballot). When I went out to WV, I was assured by Cory that everything was under control, even though it was fairly obvious that it was not. I went out there knowing the risks of Cory’s obvious mismanagement and having confidence in my ability to prevent failure. My repeated advances to solve their problems for them were rebuked. This righteously pissed me off, because success in WV would have been easy.

  But the LP failed to conduct itself in a professional manner. (And I’ve had a lot of experience with both professional petition drive managers, and unprofessional ones.)

  Instead, Shane Cory sat in an air-conditioned motel room and got paid 20K to fail. After he grossly failed, he tried to blame you and me for his negligent failure.

  Moreover, you appear to be a mercenary petitioner, even though you are the State Chair of the OK LP. I had to look that up, since normally libertarians don’t level false allegations at fellow libertarians. For you to assert things you can have no knowledge of “He was prepaid for everything” makes you look silly. Did the guy who ripped you off say that? Gee. You might not want to believe him until you hear my side of the story.

  You wrote: “And this is a fact. I was in the room the whole time he was there I know what happened.” Did you have access to my bank account? No. Did you see my contract that they never signed and never returned? No. Did you see the debits in my account for gas and for the rental car’s security deposit, and my motel room? No. You have no knowledge whatsoever of any of this. So don’t talk about it, unless you want to reveal your stunning lack of knowledge, and the fact that you jump to conclusions very quickly. You clearly know nothing about my situation, then or now.

  I hope you get paid, Angelia. I also hope that when your phone is turned back on, you will call me. I hope that in the future, before you make allegations against someone’s story that you will contact them first, so that your misperceptions can be set straight.

  I further hope you eventually have the opportunity to work for the actual Libertarian Party, and not its Republican infiltrator(s?).

  But most of all, I hope the Libertarian Party gets serious about winning individual freedom. The result of my ballot access work in TX and elsewhere were more functional state parties. The LP of 2008 was a party of clashing egos and the peter principle in demonstration. It was a disunited party, as I initially feared when Root failed to secure the nomination. Although Ruwart was not the most assertive public speaker, she would at least have made the LP a united presence. Barr was, once again, a dark horse on the third ballot. Our convention structure virtually assures this flawed outcome.

  I lost all faith in Barr when he failed to understand the concept of jury nullification of law at our national convention, as presented by FIJA activist Roger Roots, Jd, Phd. The Ron Paul momentum was squandered on Barr, since the Ron Paul movement was a movement that was able to use google to find Barr’s drug warrior anti-gay statist record. It was a movement based on voting integrity, not changing identity. In order for Barr to have amounted to anything, he would have had to sound like Lysander Spooner in 2008, instead of a compromiser.

  He failed to do that. He thusly then failed to raise money. He then failed to be rolling in the same kind of money that he envied Paul for having. He then failed to pay his workers, and he failed to hire minimal competent oversight for his campaign.

  Russell Verney is a man of very low character. When faced with paying his debts and honoring Shane’s dishonored contract, he chose to threaten to pull the plug on the WV operation (since he never had any real intention of succeeding anyway). At that point in time, I never would have been paid for anything, since I had just gotten there a week and a half prior to that point.

  It wasn’t my fault that Cory chose to ignore my advice, take Eric Dondero’s advice, and fail.

  …So I wasn’t going to suddenly listen to Verney’s extra-contractual demands that would have bankrupted me. He clearly didn’t care what happened to people whose contracts he violated. I’m glad I listened to my inner doubts. I continued working, because that’s what my contract stipulated. Normally, if there was suddenly a reason to call off work, the LP would be reasonable, and ameliorate expenses incurred by shifting the job requrements. But Cory and Verney were melodramatic loose cannons who regularly treated their subordinates like dirt (as you well know, Angelia, if you actually interacted with him at all). Why would I trust them to do what they hadn’t previously done (and never would do)?

  …Anyway, to hell with them. The WV LP is well rid of Shane Cory and Russell Verney. I hold high hopes for WV, partly because I ran into a lot of libertarians there. If Obama overregulates “clean coal” production there, he will create a solid libertarian presence in WV for 2012, when presumably we will run a candidate who thinks that there should be jury trials in the USA.

  I’m the first to say that Angelia should be paid what she’s owed, if anything, preferably directly out of Russell Verney’s bank account. (Since he forbade Cory from paying me what I was owed, out of mindless spite.) Until then, I’d prefer that she refrain from unknowingly criticizing a fellow libertarian, since I have never once criticized her.

  We’d be stronger working together than fighting each other. If you still have not been paid, then you should contact an attorney in Georgia, since the Barr Campaign’s account is in Georgia, and an out of state attorney will have trouble attaching funds from their account. Normally, I would not counsel legal action against a Libertarian Party campaign, but since they have no standards of decency, that is literally the only way to get their attention or an ounce of respect out of them.

  Peace,

  -Jake

• 25 paulie cannoli // Jan 25, 2009 at 10:32 pm

  Heck, I hope that Shane Cory pays you out of his own pocket (since it took a demand from Bill Redpath to force him to do exactly that for me.)
  

  Shane paid you out of his own pocket? I thought it was out of campaign funds?

• 26 paulie cannoli // Jan 25, 2009 at 10:41 pm

  Jake,

  Although Ruwart was not the most assertive public speaker, she would at least have made the LP a united presence. Barr was, once again, a dark horse on the third ballot. Our convention structure virtually assures this flawed outcome.

  I don’t think this is correct. I voted for Ruwart on every ballot after Kubby was out of the race. However, I think if she had won the nomination different set of people would have been pissed off, and some of them would have either sat on their hands, publicly opposed her campaign, and/ or defected to the Constitution and Republican parties. Whether this would have been a good thing, is a separate matter.

  Our wing of the party has ourselves to blame for failing to out-organize Mr. Barr for the nomination. We need to do better next time.

  Barr won on the sixth ballot, if I recall correctly. With help and support from your candidate, Mr. Root.

• 27 libertariangirl // Jan 25, 2009 at 10:45 pm

  Damn dude no offense but you coulda made that half as long , I lost interst half way thru and you seemed to be redundant thru much of it,,,

  I hope all the real LP petitioners come out to Nevada to work on an MPP initiative in 10 or 12,

• 28 paulie cannoli // Jan 25, 2009 at 10:46 pm

  I hope all the real LP petitioners come out to Nevada to work on an MPP initiative in 10 or 12,
  

  I’m down.

• 29 Jake Witmer // Jan 26, 2009 at 2:36 am

  @3, 11 LOL!!!! Mr. Y, feel free to call me during business hours tomorrow, if that’s you at comment #3 and #11. 907-250-5503

  @ 26 — You’re not precisely correct about Denver, Paulie, but Root’s a pro and doesn’t talk bad about anyone. Suffice to say that Root was very disappointed that he didn’t get the nomination, and is likely not to make the same mistakes in the future. That he made a self-interested deal to minimize catastrophe is not an indication of any great love for mainstream politicians. How do I see it?:
  A Republican meteorite named Barr crashed our convention and exacted revenge against Ron Crickenberger. With the help of a couple of inept goons. Root attempted to minimized the damage.

  @ 18,19, and 24 (correction):
  Barr campaign still owes Angelia $9,500 total, to my best knowledge. ($3,500 for hiring her out to WV to have her spend time making copies, $4,500 to OBAR -Oklahomans for Ballot Access Reform, and $1,500 borrowed from the OK LP) –All of this promised to her by that daring duo, Verney and Cory.

  @27 – I put the whole truth down for the people who are interested in the whole truth. I don’t mind if people don’t read the whole thing, and neither should they. I often lack the time to read extensive diatribes myself, although I’m glad I made room for “No Treason”.

  I’ll happily come to NV to work for MPP, et alee.

  Also, is anyone from here ever on Stefan Molyneux’s anarcho-capitalist forum at freedomainradio.com ? I know some libertarians from facebook are on it.

  Towards Liberty and Justice For All,

  Jake

• 30 Billy Goat Eater // Jan 26, 2009 at 2:47 am

  Is there some part of this where Angelia gets paid?

  There seems to be some indication that Witmer got paid. I guess he can’t stand to see anyone else get paid.

• 31 paulie cannoli // Jan 26, 2009 at 2:53 am

  Jake,

  @ 26 — You’re not precisely correct about Denver, Paulie, but Root’s a pro and doesn’t talk bad about anyone. Suffice to say that Root was very disappointed that he didn’t get the nomination, and is likely not to make the same mistakes in the future. That he made a self-interested deal to minimize catastrophe is not an indication of any great love for mainstream politicians. How do I see it?:

  A Republican meteorite named Barr crashed our convention and exacted revenge against Ron Crickenberger. With the help of a couple of inept goons. Root attempted to minimized the damage.

  I only meant that Root endorsed Barr. He could have endorsed Ruwart, or neither.

  Billy,

  There seems to be some indication that Witmer got paid. I guess he can’t stand to see anyone else get paid.

  Witmer got paid most of what he was owed, late, after a lot of work on his part that cost him time when he could have been working in Alabama. He ended up in debt as a result, and as far as I know has still not recovered. He still got stiffed on some of the money even after all that, and had to used a demand letter from an attorney, which cost him money as well.

  If you take the time to read his messages, he has said more than once that he hopes that Angelia gets paid. Whereas, she says he got prepaid – in fact, he was only prepaid an advance that was a small portion of what he ended up being owed.

• 32 Jake Witmer // Jan 26, 2009 at 3:20 am

  @30 Dear Billy Goat ___ Eater, The sooner you realize that I’m not to blame for withholding pay from both myself and Angelia, the sooner you’ll stop looking like the whackjob you apparently are. Not everything is a conspiracy with Jake Witmer in control. I just spoke with Angelia and she retracted her statements about me, and I retract mine about her. She was mistaken about several details, admitted it, and we’re both happy with each other now. I still want her to be paid, and will do what I can to help make that happen, but since she doesn’t have the same mountain of evidence I had, it might be difficult to squeeze any more personal responsibility out of Barr, Cory, or Verney. Comprende? I don’t think I can be more clear than that.

  @31 – I only meant that Root endorsed Barr. He could have endorsed Ruwart, or neither.
  …and got nothing to show for it, or gotten VP if he endorsed Barr. Not a hard choice given the context! There are also extenuating details that you know, and that take a long time to explain. You know the story, you’re just spinning it because you like Ruwart. I like her too, but I’m not going to deny the facts. I also am not going to talk about it here. If you must have the last comment, then go ahead, have fun.

  The rest of your message, as it pertains to me is true, and a bit kinder than the way I phrased it. Thanks.

  @25 – Shane paid you out of his own pocket? I thought it was out of campaign funds?
  Shane was forced to pay my lawyer’s fee of $200 out of pocket, because Verney insisted he see another letter of demand from my lawyer, or he would not pay. It was an attempt from Verney to eat up my money with legal fees, rather than pay me what he contractually owed me.

  The next thing my lawyer was going to do was take them into court, eating my money and theirs. Redpath, being the professional that he is, prevented things from getting as ugly as Verney and Cory would have had them be. Even so, dirty Vern was damn ugly.

  Angelia doesn’t think it’s likely that Shane will own up to his words, and Verney appears to have crawled back under whatever rock he came from. That leaves those of us who trusted oral contracts holding the bag. As far as contracts, I’d be happy to show you all the contract that Shane Cory agreed to over the phone, and then failed to sign and return as promised.

  Had he had any integrity or ability as a manager, he would have gotten that back to me, and I would have at least been able to hold him to some kind of human-level standard. As it stands, I’m not sure he knows the deadline has come and gone. He sure as hell didn’t seem aware that it was approaching when I arrived in WV. If he had been aware, his primary plan wouldn’t have been to “recruit petitioners out of the local paper”. …LOL.

  =====
  And libertariangirl, I’m sorry about the length, but it’s just something I’ve gotten used to apologizing for.

  Happy Trails,

  -Jake

• 33 Andy // Jan 26, 2009 at 3:46 am

  “I don’t think this is correct. I voted for Ruwart on every ballot after Kubby was out of the race. However, I think if she had won the nomination different set of people would have been pissed off, and some of them would have either sat on their hands, publicly opposed her campaign, and/ or defected to the Constitution and Republican parties. Whether this would have been a good thing, is a separate matter.”

  I think that Mary Ruwart would have attracted more of the Ron Paul supporters than Bob Barr did. I don’t know if Mary Ruwart would have “set the world on fire” either, but at least she would have done a better job at educating people on libertarian views and would not have turned off so many people who should have been supporting us like Barr did.

  I spoke to many Ron Paul supporters after Barr got the nomination and most of them did not like him. For the first time in the 12 years that I’ve been a member of the Libertarian Party, I felt embarrassed by our Presidential candidate.

  I gave Barr a chance but he failed to win me over so I did not vote for him. I cast a write in vote for Ron Paul instead.

• 34 paulie cannoli // Jan 26, 2009 at 3:51 am

  I think that Mary Ruwart would have attracted more of the Ron Paul supporters than Bob Barr did. I don’t know if Mary Ruwart would have “set the world on fire” either, but at least she would have done a better job at educating people on libertarian views and would not have turned off so many people who should have been supporting us like Barr did.

  I agree. But I also stand by my statement. You think the “child porn” smear would have just gone away, or the castigation of anarchists? Not a chance.

  Let’s face facts: regardless of who had won out of the candidates in Denver – some people would have walked away unhappy.

  Even if Ron Paul had decided he wanted the Libertarian nomination, there would have been people unhappy with that too: for example, Tom Knapp, George Phillies, Rob Power and Brian Miller. Not that they could have stopped him, but the fact is that the party is divided and I do not know anyone who would have magically healed the divisions.

• 35 Andy // Jan 26, 2009 at 3:55 am

  “@31 – I only meant that Root endorsed Barr. He could have endorsed Ruwart, or neither.”

  “…nd got nothing to show for it, or gotten VP if he endorsed Barr. Not a hard choice given the context!”

  There’s no way that I would have endorsed Barr.

• 36 Andy // Jan 26, 2009 at 4:08 am

  “I agree. But I also stand by my statement. You think the “child porn” smear would have just gone away, or the castigation of anarchists? Not a chance.”

  The “child porn” smear was retarded. Some desperate individuals took something out of a book that was written in the ’90s where the entire point of the book was to provide libertarian anwsers to tough questions, questions which the folks behind the smear likely did not have the guts to anwser.

  If this smear had not been brought up by some people in the party that didn’t want Mary Ruwart to be the candidate it is quite probable that NOBODY would have ever mentioned it. In the unlikely event that anyone did mention it then it very well could have been a positive thing as it would have meant that more people would have read Mary Ruwart’s books.

  I think that Mary Ruwart would have had more “creds” with the Ron Paul supporters since Ron Paul had personally written a letter to try to get Mary Ruwart appointed as the head of the FDA, and because Ron Paul also endorsed one of Mary Ruwart’s books. Mary Ruwart was also listed on Ron Paul’s Presidential campaign website as one of the people who had endorsed him for President (as was Steve Kubby). Mary Ruwart also didn’t have all of the dirt on herself like there was on Bob Barr for having been former (?) CIA, a former drug war prosecuter and drug warrior in Congress, etc…

• 37 Andy // Jan 26, 2009 at 4:09 am

  “Even if Ron Paul had decided he wanted the Libertarian nomination, there would have been people unhappy with that too: for example, Tom Knapp, George Phillies, Rob Power and Brian Miller. Not that they could have stopped him, but the fact is that the party is divided and I do not know anyone who would have magically healed the divisions.”

  The people who would have been unhappy if Ron Paul had become the Libertarian Party’s candidate for President in 2008 would have been such a tiny minority that they would have been insignifigant.

• 38 Andy // Jan 26, 2009 at 4:26 am

  Angelia , I really hope that you get paid but attacking Jake was not a cool thing to do. Jake is totally on your side and he did in fact get screwed over by the Barr campaign as well.

  I talked to Jake before he left for West Virginia and while he was in West Virginia. He asked me if I would come in to West Virginia with him. I declined because I knew who the players were that were going to be running that petition drive and because I knew that it was going to be a clusterfuck. I even predicted to Jake that the petition drive in West Virginia was going to fail before he went there.

  The petition drive in West Virginia did not have to fail. It failed because of gross mismanagement, which is the same reason for the ballot access failures that happened last year in Connecticut, Maine, Washington DC, and Louisiana. This is what happens when you put assholes in charges of things.

• 39 Andy // Jan 26, 2009 at 4:30 am

  “Paulie cannoli // Dec 5, 2008 at 4:22 pm

  47 k authoring fee? Nice.”

  What in the heck did James Bovard write for the Barr campaign to get paid that kind of money?

• 40 Andy // Jan 26, 2009 at 4:37 am

  “I think that Mary Ruwart would have had more “creds” with the Ron Paul supporters since Ron Paul had personally written a letter to try to get Mary Ruwart appointed as the head of the FDA, and because Ron Paul also endorsed one of Mary Ruwart’s books. Mary Ruwart was also listed on Ron Paul’s Presidential campaign website as one of the people who had endorsed him for President (as was Steve Kubby). Mary Ruwart also didn’t have all of the dirt on herself like there was on Bob Barr for having been former (?) CIA, a former drug war prosecuter and drug warrior in Congress, etc…”

  Oh yeah, Mary Ruwart would not have snubbed Ron Paul at that press conference like Bob Barr did. Barr’s snubbing of Ron Paul is what lead to Ron Paul endorsing Chuck Baldwin (which given the circumstances in this election, I can’t say as I blame him). If Mary Ruwart would have been the candidate she would have been at that press conference. Ron Paul would have either endorsed her or he would not have endorsed anybody. Barr’s snubbing of Ron Paul damaged the Libertarian Party.

• 41 paulie cannoli // Jan 26, 2009 at 10:30 am

  Andy,

  The people who would have been unhappy if Ron Paul had become the Libertarian Party’s candidate for President in 2008 would have been such a tiny minority that they would have been insignifigant.

  The point is…there would have been no party unity no matter what, contrary to what Jake said:

  Although Ruwart was not the most assertive public speaker, she would at least have made the LP a united presence. Barr was, once again, a dark horse on the third ballot. Our convention structure virtually assures this flawed outcome.

• 42 paulie cannoli // Jan 26, 2009 at 10:38 am

  The “child porn” smear was retarded. Some desperate individuals took something out of a book that was written in the ’90s where the entire point of the book was to provide libertarian anwsers to tough questions, questions which the folks behind the smear likely did not have the guts to anwser.

  I agree, but the point was not to argue the merits of the anti-Ruwart charges, but to only argue against the idea that she would have brought party unity. I think many – although not all – of the same people who were talking smack about Ruwart pre-nomination would have kept talking smack if she got the nomination, don’t you? I think TPW would probably have been the epicenter, and “Libertarians for McCain” would have received support from more than the usual suspect(s).

  If this smear had not been brought up by some people in the party that didn’t want Mary Ruwart to be the candidate it is quite probable that NOBODY would have ever mentioned it. In the unlikely event that anyone did mention it then it very well could have been a positive thing as it would have meant that more people would have read Mary Ruwart’s books.

  The genie was out of the bottle at that point.

  I think that Mary Ruwart would have had more “creds” with the Ron Paul supporters since Ron Paul had personally written a letter to try to get Mary Ruwart appointed as the head of the FDA, and because Ron Paul also endorsed one of Mary Ruwart’s books. Mary Ruwart was also listed on Ron Paul’s Presidential campaign website as one of the people who had endorsed him for President (as was Steve Kubby). Mary Ruwart also didn’t have all of the dirt on herself like there was on Bob Barr for having been former (?) CIA, a former drug war prosecuter and drug warrior in Congress, etc…

  Barr people were also citing Paul calling Barr an ally in Congress. But I agree that Mary would have done better with Paul supporters.

• 43 paulie cannoli // Jan 26, 2009 at 10:40 am

  What in the heck did James Bovard write for the Barr campaign to get paid that kind of money?

  Asked and answered earlier. Barr’s books.

• 44 Trent Hill // Jan 26, 2009 at 11:53 am

  I’d write a glowing endorsement of Barr’s career as a drug warrior and CIA man for 47,000,lol.

  Of course, then id turn around and donate a decent portion to Mises, AntiWar, and FEE.

• 45 Andy // Jan 26, 2009 at 2:31 pm

  “Asked and answered earlier. Barr’s books.”

  I didn’t know that Barr released a book during the campaign.

• 46 libertariangirl // Jan 26, 2009 at 3:38 pm

  thats the sad thing nobody even knows he wrote a friggin book. I wonder what the sales figures are.

• 47 paulie cannoli // Jan 26, 2009 at 4:26 pm

  http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-presidential-candidate-bob-barr-has-two-new-books-coming-out/

• 48 Gary Fincher // Jan 26, 2009 at 5:19 pm

  If this smear had not been brought up by some people in the party that didn’t want Mary Ruwart to be the candidate it is quite probable that NOBODY would have ever mentioned it. In the unlikely event that anyone did mention it then it very well could have been a positive thing as it would have meant that more people would have read Mary Ruwart’s books.

  “The genie was out of the bottle at that point.”

  Obama and McCain wouldn’t have cared enough to attack her, and the former Libertarian contenders who had tried to derail her over the issue would have lost the incentive to bash her any more over it.

• 49 paulie cannoli // Jan 26, 2009 at 5:23 pm

  Their supporters, not so much.

  Just like the people who didn’t like Barr didn’t just start liking him in the name of party unity, the people that didn’t like Ruwart – or at least some of them – would not have set their grudges aside either.

• 50 libertariangirl // Jan 26, 2009 at 6:48 pm

  you can bet someone would have alerted the media and it ABSOLUTELY would have been brought up. Even though she could handle a question with poise and grace , you can bet most people in the 51%ile would not understand. Its too easily misconstrued .
  I could totally see Dondero dropping that bomb on us had Ruwart been the candidate .
  Nevada did vote for Mary after Kubby was out

• 51 Prospective Advertiser // Jan 26, 2009 at 7:56 pm

  I wonder if someone like Wes Benedict or Eric Sundwall or Tom Knapp has the credentials to be an effective “libertarian unity” candidate. Or is the party going to keep tearing itself apart?

• 52 Trent Hill // Jan 26, 2009 at 9:00 pm

  I would suspect that someone who is neither Reformist nor Radical could unite the party.

• 53 paulie cannoli // Jan 26, 2009 at 9:07 pm

  Like who?

• 54 Trent Hill // Jan 26, 2009 at 9:25 pm

  No idea. You know the party better than I.

• 55 paulie cannoli // Jan 26, 2009 at 9:50 pm

  I can’t think of any. Phillies tried to sell himself as a centrist candidate, but the problem is he has pissed off a lot off people as well.

• 56 Trent Hill // Jan 26, 2009 at 10:39 pm

  Yea. I suspect someone like Gary Johnson would get a good reception in the LP.

• 57 Trent Hill // Jan 26, 2009 at 10:39 pm

  What about some of the old state reps? Dick Randolph. I remember he was one of the Koch/Cato crowd back in the day–but has since aligned himself with the Paul people.

• 58 paulie cannoli // Jan 27, 2009 at 1:51 am

  Devil’s in the details. Assuming any of those people wanted to have anything to do with the LP, much less run for the LP prez. nomination, they would have to put forth detailed positions and strategies. No matter what those would be, they would then have internal party detractors/enemies.

• 59 Andy // Jan 27, 2009 at 1:53 am

  “libertariangirl // Jan 26, 2009 at 6:48 pm

  you can bet someone would have alerted the media and it ABSOLUTELY would have been brought up. Even though she could handle a question with poise and grace , you can bet most people in the 51%ile would not understand. Its too easily misconstrued.”

  There have been Libertarian candidates in the past who made all kinds of radical statements that never got mentioned in the media.

  For example, Michael Badnarik made a statement about blowing up the United Nations building and didn’t pay income taxes for years and did not have a drivers license, yet these things were never made into a big deal in the media.

  I think that the Mary Ruwart “kiddie porn” thing was blown out of proportion and was much to do about nothing.

• 60 libertariangirl // Jan 27, 2009 at 2:02 am

  perhaps you are right:)

• 61 paulie cannoli // Jan 27, 2009 at 2:06 am

  Of course it was much ado about nothing.

  But unlike in 2004, the people in the party who were not happy with Ruwart were all about taking our internal differences and making them external.

  The party has changed a lot in that way.

  I’m surprised if you haven’t noticed.

• 62 Gary Fincher // Jan 27, 2009 at 4:57 am

  “Just like the people who didn’t like Barr didn’t just start liking him in the name of party unity, the people that didn’t like Ruwart – or at least some of them – would not have set their grudges aside either.”

  No one is saying they wouldn’t harbor grudges; of course they would. It’s just that the big incentive would have been gone (would have no way to “recall” her as the nominee), and if someone did say anything, it probably would have gone nowhere, into a black hole.

• 63 paulie cannoli // Jan 27, 2009 at 10:03 am

  That’s like saying the big incentive to criticize Barr was gone after he got the nomination. No.

• 64 Jake Witmer // Mar 5, 2010 at 1:35 am

  @57 [quote] What about some of the old state reps? Dick Randolph. I remember he was one of the Koch/Cato crowd back in the day–but has since aligned himself with the Paul people. [/quote]

  Dick Randolph has a standing offer that he will run for congress if someone raises the $1,000,000 that he believes is necessary for him to win. It’s not that Dick doesn’t want liberty right now, it’s that he doesn’t want to re-enter the corrupt and draining world of politics.

  Also, the other state reps have disbanded and spread out from Alaska, to the best of my knowledge. The AK LP has been undone by disorganization, and by a complete lack of unifying political vision. The other State Reps (from NH) represented a much smaller fraction of the State Legislature, since NH has –by far– most (and smallest) state legislative seats in the nation (over 400). Alaska is tied with Delaware for the smallest state legislature, therefore it is much harder to win a State legislative seat in AK, than it is in NH, but the seat is worth a larger percentage.

  I ahve long said that the LP needs to always fight to maintain/regain its minimum level of success, and always build upon success. This is what is known as a gracefully-decaying political strategy, yet every time I mention such a thing, people start looking at me like I’ve just grown antennae.

  …Oh well, back to the drawing board.

  Right now, the candidate I’m most in favor of is “the one that works the best with a decentralized jury rights rebellion” (and the one that has read the most of http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills , the one that has the best media access, the one that works with and capitalizes on divergent strategies the best)

  Individual Freedom, Peace.

• 65 Straight .......... // Mar 5, 2010 at 3:14 am

  from Don Lake

  paulie cannoli // Jan 26, 2009:

  ” Phillies tried to sell himself as a centrist candidate; but the problem is he has pissed off a lot off people …….” and he is an arrogant snot whom comes off self assured —– and yet can not get around to apologizing! [amateur psychologists any one ??????????]

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