Writing in Liberty Maven, Jake4Constitution provides additional evidence related to Green Party Presidential candidate Cynthia McKinney’s recent controversial claim that 5,000 black men, likely to be prisoners, were executed and disposed of in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.
McKinney’s campaign has responded to inquiries with the following statement:
During the course of Congresswoman McKinney’s focus on the victims and their mistreatment, she and her staff received reports of illegal use of force and shootings against innocent citizens from multiple, unrelated sources, including reports of attempts by law enforcement authorities to conceal the evidence of their crimes.
“Because these stories came from multiple, unrelated sources, Congresswoman McKinney did not dismiss them out of hand. She attempted to verify them with limited resources, to speak out about them and to get congressional attention through the Katrina committee hearings. Many aspects of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, despite numerous House and Senate committee hearings, remain unanswered and unresolved, including any final or reliable body counts.”
Blackwater USA was deployed in areas affected by Katrina. The Associated Press reported that
Soldiers toting M-16s strengthened their grip on this swamped city as concerns grew about the risks posed by the rank floodwaters. Officials braced for what could be a staggering death toll by readying 25,000 body bags.
The New York Times reported that
After using it for only 10 weeks, the Federal Emergency Management Agency has shut down a $17 million state-of-the-art morgue built to handle victims of Hurricane Katrina, according to agency officials. The morgue, which can decontaminate and examine 150 bodies a day and has living space for nearly 500 workers, is closing because the number of bodies coming in has dwindled to about one a week, said Chuck Smith, a FEMA official. Smith said Tuesday the morgue had been developed when officials believed there would be 5,000 deaths.
Jake cites a 2007 OpEdNews article “Baghdad on the Bayou: Disaster Capitalism and the War on Equality” by journalist Georgianne Nienaber, ACLU reports on prisoner abuse, and an excerpt on disaster capitalism from Naomi Klein. He also writes that
President Bush’s website famously instituted a “zero tolerance” policy for looting in the aftermath of the flood on 9/2/2005, and later emphasize even if someone was “looting” for “food or water.” Louisiana’s governor, Kathleen Blanco, added a “shoot to kill” order to Bush’s “zero tolerance” proclamation per ABC, also on 9/2/2005.
Jake concludes,
I challenge the Reader to find the truth, put it all together and let me know what the truth really is.
This matter is of import to the presidential race. The fact that CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC, and McBama are all not addressing or even mentioning this issue one week after the McKinney teleconference with the evidence above is reason enough to be suspicious, and calls into question their integrity as Americans.
I would not do what FOX did and infer that Cynthia McKinney is crazy without checking for the evidence first. This is shoddy journalism. Quite the opposite, I commend McKinney for stepping forward and let the evidence dictate the next step, dictate the truth, not simply sounds of blubbering madness or silence from our pitiful press corps and political leaders.
Even if CNN, CBS, NBC, and many others do not choose to exercise their First Amendment rights to the fullest, I will. I do warn you that the day may arrive when freedom of speech is stripped from dissident Americans like myself, and websites like the one you are reading now are closed down. I urge you to speak out before its too late.
135 responses so far ↓
1 Mike Gillis // Oct 6, 2008 at 3:44 pm
“This matter is of import to the presidential race. The fact that CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC, and McBama are all not addressing or even mentioning this issue one week after the McKinney teleconference with the evidence above is reason enough to be suspicious, and calls into question their integrity as Americans.”
Not necessarily.
They aren’t talking about fake moon landings or in UFOs being held in secret by the U.S. government, but the absence of these subjects in their speeches doesn’t lend credence to these claims.
Some things just aren’t worth bringing up until there is evidence for their existence.
What I see so far is the same poor logic behind the Truthers. We begin with a big claim without any concrete evidence - and one that would leave behind ALOT of physical evidence and would raise a lot of problems - like say, having to explain 5,000 missing prisoners.
And this big claim requires big evidence. That hasn’t been provided; only alot of circumstantial facts that one can cherrypick and use to rationalize a pre-selected end result.
Let’s find these bodies. Thousands of skeletons less than three years old with bullet holes in their skulls would be HUGE news and before we simply give this story out unqualified belief, let’s see if it is true.
Use some reason and critical thought here before we jump the gun.
2 paulie cannoli // Oct 6, 2008 at 4:10 pm
http://www.libertymaven.com/2008/10/06/cynthia-mckinney-and-the-alleged-5000-dead-hurricane-katrina-inmates/2382/
3 G.E. // Oct 6, 2008 at 4:15 pm
To statist Nader supporter Mike Gillis: There are plenty of missing people from Hurricane Katrina. Do you deny this?
4 der // Oct 6, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Its easy to throw stuff out and see if it sticks. It becomes difficult to provide evidence for all the garbage you spew.
5 Mike Gillis // Oct 6, 2008 at 4:47 pm
“To statist Nader supporter Mike Gillis: There are plenty of missing people from Hurricane Katrina. Do you deny this?”
I love how you start throwing names out the second you disagree with someone.
Sure there are plenty of missing people from Katrina. But two things.
It’s a huge leap to go from “there are many many people missing from Katrina” to “thousands of those people were actually murdered by the government”. Doubly so when you factor in that these execution victims’ bodies have yet to be found.
And second, prisons tend to keep close watch on the people in their custody, including their populations, their identities and their location. If there are 5,000 missing prisoners, this should not be hard to verify.
And again, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim, not the skeptic. Make your case through evidence, not circumstantial statements and kneejerk assumptions and appeals to emotion.
5,000 bodies in a mass grave or sprinkled around the swamp like Johnny Appleseed will be found, whether by humans or hungry animals. And even if those bodies fully decompose, a bullet hole in a skull will be there waiting for you.
Make your case, don’t just toss about insults and assumptions.
Without hard proof, you as well say that those missing people during Katrina were taken by UFOs.
Prove your claim and I’ll take it seriously.
6 paulie cannoli // Oct 6, 2008 at 4:56 pm
As far as I know, no one has made a positive claim that is present here. Ms. McKinney did, but if she even reads this blog (probably not the best use of her time at the moment), she has not had time/inclination to comment.
I agree the claim is extraordinary.
I’m not sure if you read Jake’s article and the other articles he links to. Did you?
It is entirely possible that prison records disappeared during the general confusion that was taking place.
That the men were prisoners is also a matter of speculation. They may also have been looters, or whoever the troops/mercenaries considered unruly crowds, etc.
I am not saying this happened, just that it could have. It certainly would not be the first mass murder which was discovered years later, so the claim that the bodies would have been found is not necessarily conclusive.
I don’t think either side should jump to conclusions.
7 G.E. // Oct 6, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Calling names?
Are you an anarchist? No.
Do you support Nader? Yes.
Is your name Mike Gillis? As far as I know.
8 paulie cannoli // Oct 6, 2008 at 5:25 pm
I think a lot of non-anarchists view “statist” as name calling.
9 Mike Gillis // Oct 6, 2008 at 5:41 pm
You clearly used it as a derogatory term, so at least have the balls to be honest.
Your intent was to insult me. I’m not going to argue semantics with you.
10 ModernWhig // Oct 6, 2008 at 5:45 pm
I think that a big CITATIONS NEEDED is warranted on this piece
11 paulie cannoli // Oct 6, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Citations have been provided. You can click on them.
12 G.E. // Oct 6, 2008 at 5:48 pm
My intent was to insult by calling you a statist? And I lack the “ball” to admit it?
Fuck you, you big baby. That is an insult, and a deserved one.
- Jason Seagraves
13 paulie cannoli // Oct 6, 2008 at 5:49 pm
You clearly used it as a derogatory term,
That may be clear to you, but there is a certain segment of the anarcho-capitalist community that is so used to calling everyone else a statist and/or socialist that it becomes a very matter of fact thing…sort of like when other people refer to the regime as “us” or “we.”
14 G.E. // Oct 6, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Of course it’s deragatory. And relevant, giving that he’s shilling for George W. Bush and his government in an attempt to discredit the Green Party nominee.
15 JimDavidson // Oct 6, 2008 at 5:55 pm
From what I’ve been told by my friends in the area, there were many people in the New Orleans jail and in jails in neighboring parishes who disappeared. I think it is unreasonable to say that the government keeps good track of prisoners when the evidence is that it does not. No government does. Government does nothing well.
16 paulie cannoli // Oct 6, 2008 at 6:00 pm
I lack the “ball” to admit it?
Göring has only got one ball
Hitler’s got two, but incredibly small
Himmler’s very similar
And Goebbels has no balls at all!
17 JimDavidson // Oct 6, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Hitler was apparently dying of syphilis in 1945 before he took his own life.
Brad Spangler has an interesting video on his blog. Listen at 1:17 to this Congress critter say that the speaker of the house has declared martial law.
http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/1068
What that means, exactly, in the context of a Congress that never held hearings on an enormous expenditure of funds is unclear. But fun.
18 paulie cannoli // Oct 6, 2008 at 6:14 pm
I had a post where I asked for feedback on that. What I heard back is that “martial law” that is being referred to in that clip refers to procedural rules in the House where legislation gets rushed through. I don’t remember if any of those replies were sourced or not.
I think there is a separate claim that actual martial law was threatened to various congresspests if they did not change their vote to yes on the bill, but I’m not clear on the source of that either.
19 Trent Hill // Oct 6, 2008 at 6:24 pm
Statist, especially in the way Jason used it, certainly IS an insult. And I certainly see why Mike Gillis takes offense to it.
With that said–Mike, dont let it get to you. An anarchist calling you a “statist” is a compliment. Like when you walk into the mental health facility and one of the patients calls you a “normal”.
20 Catholic Trotskyist // Oct 6, 2008 at 6:47 pm
For the second time in a week or so, I must agree with fascist/stalinist criminal agent Mike Gillis. Clearly Mike, you are recovering from your anti-establishment insanity, and I predict within a couple weeks you will be criticizing Nader as much as McKinney, and will be praising our Holy General Barack H. Obama, and joining the Catholic Trotskyist Party of America. Amen.
21 G.E. // Oct 6, 2008 at 6:47 pm
Yes, Mike endorses a LOT of theft and murder; Trent just a little; and me none.
22 Catholic Trotskyist // Oct 6, 2008 at 7:11 pm
And me somewhere between Mike and Trent, I guess.
23 The last redneck // Oct 6, 2008 at 7:48 pm
Government does nothing well.
Except, apparently, control the path of hurricanes, murder 5000 documented prisoners, and manage to hide the evidence of this massive operation from everyone but one crack-pot lady and you knuckle-heads.
24 The last redneck // Oct 6, 2008 at 7:54 pm
Let me guess, I should wake up, quit being a sheep, and throw off the shackles of a government that lies, cheats and steals, right?
How revolutionary.
25 Hugh Jass // Oct 6, 2008 at 8:23 pm
Trent,
If I choose not to use the police, military, and court functions of the government, why do I have to pay taxes?
26 G.E. // Oct 6, 2008 at 8:41 pm
Don’t get him going, Hugh. It’s unproductive.
27 JimDavidson // Oct 6, 2008 at 9:03 pm
I would like to see the evidence for government controlling the path of even one hurricane.
As for what you should do, last redneck, I can think of a few things. Have you tried removing your head from that position of recto-cranial inversion?
28 Trent Hill // Oct 6, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Hugh Jass,
You are not the first, or smartest, person to make an arguement. Nor am I anywhere near the first, or smartest, minarchist to critique it. I invite you to read all of the literature where minarchists criticize anarchism—I’d be happy to point you to some literature if need be. But im not going to play out the same debate over and over and over again.
With that said–unless you leave the country, you are always “using” the police, courts, and military. The only way NOT to “use” these things is to leave. That isnt an endorsement of the state or what it does, or any of these services. It is only a statement that those services (especially military) are SUPPOSED to be for national defense,which would include you and your property. Furthermore, wether you wanted the courts and police to investigate your killing or not–they would.
29 Trent Hill // Oct 6, 2008 at 9:23 pm
GE,
Hugh Jass is welcome to question me on minarchism. Anarchists often go back to being minarchists later on in life (see: Dana Rohrabacher).
30 michael.098762001 // Oct 6, 2008 at 10:07 pm
“les evenchick” , “Mitchel Cohen” ,
http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/pipermail/lbo-talk/Week-of-Mon-20081006/016453.html
[lbo-talk] Report on killings during Katrina in New Orleans
Mr. X from_alamut at yahoo.com
Mon Oct 6 15:14:20 PDT 2008
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This is crap. And its stuff like this that gives the Left a bad rep.
Show us the bodies!
peace,
Jim Davis Ozark Bioregion, USA
http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=141735
http://www.amazon.com/Shia-Imami-Ismaili-Muslims-Introduction/dp/1430315628/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218913605&sr=8-2
— On Mon, 10/6/08, Mitchel Cohen wrote:
leans
To: mitchelcohen at mindspring.com
A while back, I was asked to produce evidence of killings by
official
personnel in New Orleans, which I mentioned in my article,
“People of
the Dome.”
As Cynthia McKinney has recently referred to these
killings, more and
more reports are becoming public, now. It would be great if
Pacifica
and other Indy journalists would follow-up. A friend who
lives in New
Orleans, Les Evenchick, has been compiling these stories.
Here’s what
he has just written to me:
——————————–
From Les Evenchick, Oct. 6, 2008
I have been talking and writing about killings since I
returned from
New York after Katrina in Nov 2005.
When i first returned friends started to tell me stories
about both
individual and mass killings. I then started asking people
I met if
they had heard about any killings.
Over the past 3 years, i have heard about 3 dozen stories
from
individuals who do not know each other and in the majority
of cases
supported the killings.
I ran for city council and publicly raised the issue by
calling for
an investigation of the shootings of innocent people post
Katrina.
I received zero media coverage concerning this but several
more
persons contacted me during the campaign with additional
stories.
Here are a few of the stories I heard.
1. A medical officer I met said he worked at the St Gabriel
Parish
Prison morgue and said he saw 89 bodies that had been shot.
2. A former head of the local ACLU said while helping the
police in 2
districts he heard reports of about 100 persons killed by
Navy Seals.
He supported the killings.
3. A friend of a New Orleans police officer reported that
her friend
told her that he had been involved in a killing of 68
persons. He
said they had orders to “shoot anyone with a gun and
everyone around them”.
The officer was reported as saying that the bodies were put
in body
bags and loaded onto trucks.
4. A person came up to me on the street and said he
recognized me
from my election campaign. He said that he met a Green
Beret in
Tangipahoa Parish who was head of all the paramilitaries.
He was
reported as saying that he(the Green Beret) had seen 4
truckloads of
bodies that had been shot.
5. A state police officer told another friend of mine that
over 500
persons were shot and killed in the New Orleans area. I had
met that
officer and was present when the statement took place but
was too far
away to hear it directly.
6. A musician told me that a national guard officer friend
of his
said that about 1000 persons were killed by the US airborne
in the
Woodmere subdivision after several days of battles with
other
military and police forces. The bodies were reported to
have been
placed in body bags and loaded onto trucks. The musician
told me he
supported the killings. (This is in the area where it was
reported in
the press that a local police station was taken over by
locals).
7. I was told by another person that bodies were dropped to
the
bottom of the Mississippi or burned. This person also
supported the killings.
8. I talked with a cab driver from Algiers who said he
helped the
local police and heard daily reports from them about
persons they killed.
9. A person working at a local bar where prostitutes work
out of told
me that national guard members had told him that they did
things that
they would “have to take to their graves.” The
same person told me
about an incident where 17 persons took over a fire truck
and tried
to leave the city but were all killed. He also supported
the killings.
10. I heard several reports of police vigilante killings
directed
against ‘criminals’ the police had scores to settle
with.
11. I also had numerous reports of single individuals being
killed or
wounded on suspicion of looting, refusing to obey orders,
talking
back to national guard officers and the like.
In particular, in one case a women approached a police car
near the
convention center to ask for information. As she approached
the
officer shot her in the arm without warning. (Told to me by
a cab
driver who had the women as a passenger)
Another person (a neighbor of a friend) was killed when he
did not
hear an order to stop as he was wading through water to get
home.
Another person was walking on Poydras St. with his family
escaping
from flooding when he saw a police car. He tried to flag
down the
police car by stepping out in the street and waving him
down. The
police officer just ran him down and killed him in front of
his
family and kept going. (This report I found on the
internet)
Also I found other persons’ reports via internet
searches who
reported burnings of bodies at one of the Army forts in
Mississippi.
The above is just what I remember offhand.
I originally left New Orleans on the Friday after Katrina
because all
I heard starting Thursday morning, first from Bush and then
from
Blanco and Nagin, was “shoot to kill” on
“suspicion”. I did want to
be shot on suspicion so I tried to figure out a way to get
out.
I had heard lots of automatic gun fire from my apt on both
Tuesday
and Thursday nights.
I was able to leave thanks to a former employer who was
able to get
his truck out of a flooded garage. We had to go past 2
roadblocks to
get out of the city. We were held at gunpoint by a large
number of
police/military and our driver interrogated for some 10
minutes
before we were allowed to pass.
Local police had warned me and a friend on Thursday to get
out of
town by any means possible even if we had to hot wire a
car.
There have been local media reports that when the Army came
it, its
leader went to the police chief (Eddie Compass) and asked
him where
the ‘hot spots’ were and said his forces would
“take care” of them.
I personally saw state police on flatbed trucks heavily
armed and
looking scared. I kept my distance. I was also searched at
the point
of a huge hand held weapon that i had never seen before on
the Thurs
before I left.
The only Blackwater persons I saw were security guards at
FEMA
locations after I returned to New Orleans. I received no
reports of
Blackwater personnel killing anyone. Reports of killing
always
involved local police, national guard, state police, Army,
and Navy personnel.
The Army Times had an article just after Katrina that
referred to
what was going on as an “insurgency”.
The only radio station broadcasting into New Orleans was
WWL which
had been taken over by FEMA.
They promoted the idea that criminal gangs were taking over
the city.
They claimed armories were being raided. In one incident
where a fire
broke out in a chemical tank car (I could see the plume of
smoke from
my window), WWL was claiming that gangs were setting fores
all over the city.
I live in a third floor apt with an unrestricted view of
most of the
city and would have seen smoke from such fires if they
existed.
It seemed to me that FEMA created the fear among the
national guard
and other forces from outside the city that led to many
killings on
“suspicion”.
Food and water was withheld from those of us trapped in the
city. Tap
water was turned off by the Governor (Blanco) on Tuesday
morning
after the storm even though the water system was not shown
to pose
any problems.
We were continually told to evacuate but no means was given
to
evacuate if you did not own a car or have a friend who did.
Tourists were kicked out of their hotels with no
alternative places
to stay until they were told to go to the Convention center
on
Tuesday or Wednesday afternoon.
I also heard reports from several persons who were in the
Superdome.
At one point the doors were locked and no one allowed to
leave. One
person reported to me that a group tried to break out and
were shot
by national guard members. Whether any were killed i
don’t know.
My own opinion is that I doubt most shot and killed persons
were
dumped in swamps. It is more likely the bodies were
systematically
burned after being carried by trucks in body bags to
military
controlled locations.
It is unlikely that most of those killed were prisoners
from jails. I
have had zero reports of such killings
But persons did die in the Orleans Parish prison due to
flooding. I
met a man whose wife was told by a prison official that her
cousin
drowned in prison.
I also met a women former prisoner who said she saw bodies
floating
when she was rescued by persons sent from Angola prison to
which she
was transferred.
What actually happened needs a full investigation, that is
clear, but
I suspect it will be years before the truth comes out.
Remember, during the Nazi mass murders, most knew nothing
about them
till the Nazi’s were defeated.
- Les
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–
Michael Pugliese
31 michael.098762001 // Oct 6, 2008 at 10:08 pm
piratefish@yahoo.com is Les Evenchick.
32 Hugh Jass // Oct 6, 2008 at 10:18 pm
Trent,
You use a circular argument. You say that because the courts and police would investigate the crime committed against me whether I wanted them to or not, that that is justification for having to pay taxes for compulsory courts and police. Panarchists like myself believe that the courts and police should only investigate crimes committed against their customers, rather than the entire population.
Also, to get a pre-emptive strike when you will inevitably question me on pragmatism, can you cite any example of any form of government that started out limited in power but never grew in size?
33 Thomas L. Knapp // Oct 6, 2008 at 10:52 pm
Hugh,
You write to Trent:
“You say that because the courts and police would investigate the crime committed against me whether I wanted them to or not, that that is justification for having to pay taxes for compulsory courts and police.”
No, that’s not what he says. He says that’s the way it IS, not the way it SHOULD be.
34 Trent Hill // Oct 6, 2008 at 11:01 pm
Thank you Knapp–I couldn’t say it better myself.
Knapp is correct about what I said. How it SHOULD be is completely different.
35 Trent Hill // Oct 6, 2008 at 11:06 pm
“Also, to get a pre-emptive strike when you will inevitably question me on pragmatism, can you cite any example of any form of government that started out limited in power but never grew in size?”
Of course not. But I can name a few minarchies that lasted at least 50 years without seriously encroaching upon liberty (America, Mideival Iceland, Pre-colonial Pennsylvania, etc). Furthermore, this does not get to central point of my arguement against anarchism. While minarchism slowly creeps towards governmental tyranny, anarchism collapses into tribalism or explodes into authoritarianism–almost without fail. It is concievable that some anarchist society might SLOWLY trend towards minarchism, but that chance is quite small I think.
Then again, all of this is philosphical ponderance.
36 Gregg Jocoy // Oct 6, 2008 at 11:16 pm
Sorry to interrupt the discussion on anarchism v minarchism, but as to the main point of the story…more on this story can be found here and over here.
37 sunshinebatman // Oct 6, 2008 at 11:26 pm
Mayor Nagin made a perfectly reasonable estimate earlly on, I believe during the famous WWL interview, that 10,000 were dead.
38 sunshinebatman // Oct 6, 2008 at 11:34 pm
Unlike crazy McKinney, thank Dobbs we still have principled sane LP candidates who choose to spend all of their earned media promoting the vitally important issues of privatization of police and military.
39 der // Oct 7, 2008 at 12:40 am
I have to laugh at people who actually believe privatization of police and military would even come close to working. I’d like to know what world these people live in because it isn’t the real one. One these companies realize they are the only ones with weapons, they will merge and take power. Thus, you have a tyrannical military run state. Don’t worry we can all be happy because its private though.
As for the topic, McKinney needs to provide some definitive evidence. If such evidence exists, then it should immediately be brought to court.
40 Hugh Jass // Oct 7, 2008 at 12:55 am
“Furthermore, this does not get to central point of my arguement against anarchism. While minarchism slowly creeps towards governmental tyranny, anarchism collapses into tribalism or explodes into authoritarianism–almost without fail”
First of all, I think that anarchism is a derogatory term, I do not want to abolish government, on the contrary, I believe that people should be allowed to choose whatever government they wished, or none at all, without having to leave their property. Surely, if one believes that people should be free to choose their government through immigration, they should be free to do so without having to physically move. But, then again, you are an immigration restrictionist, so that argument might not work.
Second, You neglected to mention medieval Iceland, which existed for over 2 centuries without any formal government. Plus, how can one justify theft and murder on the basis that it is done to prevent greater theft and murder?
41 Hugh Jass // Oct 7, 2008 at 12:58 am
der,
In case you haven’t noticed, that is the system we live under today. The worst-case scenario for panarcho-capitalism would be that the PDAs form cartels and form a state, an incredibly unlikely situation that would be no different from the government we have today. You use a circular argument to justify the monopoly of defense on the basis that if a free-market in defense were to emerge, the defense agencies would merge until they formed a monopoly of defense, the exact same situation that you seek to defend!
42 G.E. // Oct 7, 2008 at 12:58 am
Dana Rohrabacher = minarchist = hahahah!
DONDEROOOOOOOOOO!
43 der // Oct 7, 2008 at 1:02 am
Hugh,
We live under a tyrannical military rule. I understand things are bad, but lets not be dramatic here. I can still go wherever I want, say whatever I want, and do what I want. Not even close to what would happen.
Our current defense has at least some sort of accountability.
Privatization of defense is an insane proposal. Private companies seek to maxmize profit. They will answer to nobody, so who is going to stop them when a few decide to merge and take over the state? It is not incredibly unlikely when they are the only ones running things.
Nevermind the fact that a foreign country would take over the US in about a week.
44 G.E. // Oct 7, 2008 at 1:05 am
der doesn’t understand the first thing about business when he says “private companies seek to maximize profit.”
That is a socialist canard.
Anyone who knows anything know that private companies seek to maximize shareholder value which is an entirely different proposition.
The “insane” thing is to think that the more important something is, the more it should be removed from the marketplace.
If you think we don’t live under military dictatorship, try not paying a parking ticket.
45 der // Oct 7, 2008 at 1:06 am
In addition,
you are arguing that when these private companies do take over power, we will be in the exact same situation.
To me a military dictatorship is not the same as a Republic. That might just be me though.
46 der // Oct 7, 2008 at 1:08 am
GE,
How is being taken to court for not paying a parking ticket mean we live in a military dictatorship. I think you should look up the definition of a dictatorship.
Whatever semantics you want to argue, private companies will eventually condense power to a couple and take over the government for the state. History, and basic human nature tells us this.
I don’t think defense should be removed from the marketplace because it is important. I think it should be removed because it wouldn’t work. There isn’t a one size fits all for every situation in government.
Maybe you can ask the Iraqis how they are enjoying their private contractors.
47 G.E. // Oct 7, 2008 at 1:16 am
You will be murdered by the state if you refuse to pay your parking ticket or follow any other arbitrary law. You sound like a pure-blood aryan in Nazi Germany — Hitler isn’t imposing any restrictions on your lifestyle, so he’s not a dictator.
I love the statist argument that we can’t have anarchy because we’ll end up with … the horror… statism! This would be like the “why should I take a shower, I’m just going to get dirty again” argument, only it isn’t true.
Trent gets really mad when he’s made to defend his support for theft and murder on a “limited scale,” and I get tired of rehashing the same stuff over and over again. If you really understand free-market economics, the nightmare scenarios and “insane zillionaire murderers” etc. become laughable. You, Mr./Ms. der, don’t even understand the fundamental difference between generating profits and maximizing shareholder value, so until you can grasp that and really take it to heart (which will take time), there’s no point in going further with you. If “profits” were really the goal, then what you say has validity — but they’re not so it doesn’t.
48 G.E. // Oct 7, 2008 at 1:19 am
And one last thing before I ignore this thread:
1. The state does not work. Limited government is a disaster. Look around you.
2. The state is immoral.
3. Anarchy “may not work” (yes it would, but let’s just say it wouldn’t).
4. Anarchy is totally moral (i.e. no killing or robbing allowed, not even on a “limited” scale as allowed by a bogus piece of paper written up by elites).
Arguing for the state is arguing for murder and theft. Making a utilitarian argument for the state is like making a utilitarian argument for population control. The state is evil, and anyone who seeks to rationalize its existence is rationalizing evil.
49 paulie cannoli // Oct 7, 2008 at 2:00 am
If anyone wants to continue discussing anarchy vs. minarchy please do so here:
http://pauliecannoli.wordpress.com/2008/10/06/anarchy-vs-minarchy/
50 paulie cannoli // Oct 7, 2008 at 2:10 am
If anyone has pertinent information sources that enhance or discredit Ms. McKinney’s claim about what happened in the ‘Nolia, please do so here in this thread.
51 der // Oct 7, 2008 at 9:17 am
You will be murdered by the state if you refuse to pay your parking ticket or follow any other arbitrary law.
You will? Yeah, I don’t think so.
Some of you “woe is me” people really need to take a step back and put things into perspective. Acting like you live under the most repressive government in history. While we do have major problems you don’t live in Africa, China, or Saudi Arabia and really have something to complain about.
So before you go spouting off about living in a dictatorship why don’t you step back and realize the freedoms you do have.
Yes, anarchy would not work. For the same reason Marxism would not work. You completely ignore examples of failed anarchic states (Somalia, Afghanistan) and keep thinking humans have somehow changed. Basic human nature does not allow anarchy to work
And actually profits are the goal.
52 paulie cannoli // Oct 7, 2008 at 9:21 am
#
paulie cannoli // Oct 7, 2008 at 2:00 am
If anyone wants to continue discussing anarchy vs. minarchy please do so here:
http://pauliecannoli.wordpress.com/2008/10/06/anarchy-vs-minarchy/
#
50 paulie cannoli // Oct 7, 2008 at 2:10 am
If anyone has pertinent information sources that enhance or discredit Ms. McKinney’s claim about what happened in the ‘Nolia, please do so here in this thread.
53 paulie cannoli // Oct 7, 2008 at 10:03 am
http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/diarypage.php?did=9912
54 paulie cannoli // Oct 7, 2008 at 10:06 am
From comments at Green Party Watch
============
There is a BBC documentary about the prisoners in NO who were kept locked up without food for three days with the waters rising. When some of them finally knocked a hole in the wall and tried to escape, they were shot by guards.
The video is here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7801085471711396755&ei=kUHrSLCFOpPYrAKnhcGdCw&q=bbc+katrina+prisoners&hl=en
55 Trent Hill // Oct 7, 2008 at 10:31 am
“Second, You neglected to mention medieval Iceland, which existed for over 2 centuries without any formal government. Plus, how can one justify theft and murder on the basis that it is done to prevent greater theft and murder?”
Hugh Jass, I did not “forget” mideival Iceland. It was not an anarcho-capitalist or even anarchist area–it was a tribalist one.
56 Trent Hill // Oct 7, 2008 at 10:32 am
“Dana Rohrabacher = minarchist = hahahah! ”
Dana Rohrabacher WAS a minarchist, idiot. He was also an anarchist before that, which proves my point perfectly. READ.
57 Trent Hill // Oct 7, 2008 at 10:35 am
“Trent gets really mad when he’s made to defend his support for theft and murder on a “limited scale,” and I get tired of rehashing the same stuff over and over again.”
And GE cant come to grips with the fact that his system of political thought is nothing more than a fairy tale–just as pretty as Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy,and just as real.
Besides, my system results in LESS bloodsheed and LESS aggression than yours,which will almost immediately devolve into chaos or evolve rapidly into dictatorship/theocracy.
58 paulie cannoli // Oct 7, 2008 at 10:36 am
….
#
paulie cannoli // Oct 7, 2008 at 2:00 am
If anyone wants to continue discussing anarchy vs. minarchy please do so here:
http://pauliecannoli.wordpress.com/2008/10/06/anarchy-vs-minarchy/
#
50 paulie cannoli // Oct 7, 2008 at 2:10 am
If anyone has pertinent information sources that enhance or discredit Ms. McKinney’s claim about what happened in the ‘Nolia, please do so here in this thread.
59 Trent Hill // Oct 7, 2008 at 10:44 am
I dont post at LFV, and the posts are being made here. Thread hijacking is a normal thing here at IPR and thats part of the culture. Im posting HERE.
60 paulie cannoli // Oct 7, 2008 at 10:51 am
I dont post at LFV
I don’t post at LFV anymore either.
I’m trying to drum up some traffic/conversation for my blog
http://pauliecannoli.wordpress.com/
It’s been kind of dormant…
I’d like to get some other people signed up there as bloggers too. Jim Davidson just started posting there yesterday.
61 The last redneck // Oct 7, 2008 at 11:01 am
Hey Jim, I went to dictionary.com and looked up all the big words you used. I can’t be sure, but I think you suggested I take my head out of my ass?
Look at my name again. Please use smaller words when you insult me, it’ll save me a lot of time, and it won’t make you sound like such a pompous ass.
That being said, you don’t seem to need any evidence to support the prisoner murder conspiracy.
By the way, it’s been a few years since the New Orleans flood. Shouldn’t the prisoner’s family and friends have noticed them missing by now?
Or have they taken care of them too. Christ! I know lots of guys in jail in New Orleans, I could be next.
62 paulie cannoli // Oct 7, 2008 at 11:12 am
Shouldn’t the prisoner’s family and friends have noticed them missing by now?
How many of the people in question were prisoners is in question. There are, I think, people who are missing from Katrina. How exactly would people who have missing and/or dead family know whether their numbers are being under-reported?
Is there a list of all the people who are dead, and any who are missing from Katrina?
63 The last redneck // Oct 7, 2008 at 11:13 am
I find it very difficult to be serious in this thread, But this is a serious question.
Main Entry: 1prof·it
Pronunciation: \ˈprä-fət\
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin profectus advance, profit, from proficere
Date: 14th century
1: a valuable return : gain
2: the excess of returns over expenditure in a transaction or series of transactions ; especially : the excess of the selling price of goods over their cost
3: net income usually for a given period of time
4: the ratio of profit for a given year to the amount of capital invested or to the value of sales
5: the compensation accruing to entrepreneurs for the assumption of risk in business enterprise as distinguished from wages or rent
What IS the difference between profit and increasing value?
64 The last redneck // Oct 7, 2008 at 11:21 am
Just thought I should mention before before this goes much further, I was born and raised in New Orleans. I live on Monroe st. just off Claiborne. Where you guys from?
65 paulie cannoli // Oct 7, 2008 at 11:25 am
Great, then maybe you know the answer to this:
How exactly would people who have missing and/or dead family know whether their numbers are being under-reported?
Is there a list of all the people who are dead, and any who are missing from Katrina?
66 Trent Hill // Oct 7, 2008 at 11:43 am
Paulie,
I doubt it. But certainly there would be…ohh, I dunno…10,000 people or so who knew that they had relatives missing,right?
67 The last redneck // Oct 7, 2008 at 11:44 am
If my brother Daniel, Who is in jail, and has been for the last 8 years. If after katrina he suddenlyquit taking my phone calls and didn’t show up for our bi-monthly visits, I would ask where he was. If they claimed they didn’t know or he was in the shitter everytime I called, I would become suspicious. I wouldn’t care how many were missing, the only number I would be interested in would be 1. One missing brother. If there were 5000 others like me who had a missing brother, father, son, or whatever, I think we would be pretty hard to deal with. I know I would be.
People who have never been to jail don’t seem to realize that their family and friends still have daily contact with them if they want to.
And yes, as far as I know there are lists, I think the issue here is that you don’t think the list is accurate. I don’t either. It’s just that you seem to be assuming these thousands of missing people are unknown to everyone just because their unknown to you.
68 paulie cannoli // Oct 7, 2008 at 11:52 am
I doubt it. But certainly there would be…ohh, I dunno…10,000 people or so who knew that they had relatives missing,right?
Yes. But how would they know if they were one of 5, 10 or 20 thousand? Seriously, I don’t want to sound stupid, but this is a real question.
69 The last redneck // Oct 7, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Oh, I don’t know, the internet maybe? Telephones, word of mouth, missing person posters on telephone poles around town? Orleans parish is not that big. The only people in Orleans Parish Jail are people from Orleans Parish. The family and friends of 5000 or even 500 prisoners would make up a large percentage of the population of Orleans Parish. We make be hicks, but we would notice. OK
70 paulie cannoli // Oct 7, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Oh, I don’t know, the internet maybe?
OK, I’m on the internet. Where do I go to find a list of all the dead, and how many if any are missing, from Katrina and who they are?
Telephones, word of mouth,
What would you say exactly? “Let’s get folks together and do a count and see exactly how many people’s missing and dead and make sure the official numbers are right”? How would you even do that unless there is a list of exactly who all is dead and/or missing? How would you know you got a hold of everybody - especially when hundreds of thousands of people end up in Texas and every other state?
missing person posters on telephone poles around town?
Well, presumably there were missing people. I don’t know if there still are. What would some missing people posters prove? Do you know for sure if everyone that had missing relatives put up a poster? How would they do that if they are now in a different state BTW?
The only people in Orleans Parish Jail are people from Orleans Parish.
That’s odd. I’ve been in county jails in seven states (not proud of that, but it’s true), and there were people from other counties, states and even countries in all of them. What do y’all do with people who are not from Orleans Parish who get busted there, send them straight to Angola without a trial, or ship them to Alabama or what?
Although that is a red herring since the people who got killed, if this happened, were not necessarily from OPJ or even prisoners at all.
Maybe some of them were, maybe not.
71 The last redneck // Oct 7, 2008 at 12:31 pm
I give up, have fun.
72 paulie cannoli // Oct 7, 2008 at 12:37 pm
And yes, as far as I know there are lists, I think the issue here is that you don’t think the list is accurate.
No, the issue is that I don’t know if the lists are available. Are they available, and if so where?
If the list is available then Ms. McKinney’s story becomes a lot harder to believe because like you said, anybody who has missing or dead relatives could go look them up on the list and say “wait a minute, where’s Tashawn?” But if all you know is that Tashawn is dead and the neighbor’s cousin Larry is missing, and you see a number like 2,000 from the government with no names attached, how do you know if the count is off?
I don’t either.
Why not? That’s actually an interesting question too.
It’s just that you seem to be assuming these thousands of missing people are unknown to everyone just because their unknown to you.
Nope, I’m not assuming that.
73 Mike Gillis // Oct 7, 2008 at 12:51 pm
First of all, I want to say that I didn’t call out Jason insulting me because my feelings were hurt. I called it out because when he disagrees with ANYONE about ANYTHING, his only method of debate is to launch personal attacks, usually going into a all-or-nothing, black and white, us vs. them tirade.
What I rejected was that instead of actually arguing against the points I was making, he just changes the subject and insults me. That’s just intellectually lazy.
That he can’t simply agree to disagree as many of the progressives on this board are willing to do with him. He needs to roll into a speech where, if you don’t agree with him to the letter or treat even the most ridiculous conspiracy with all seriousness, that you’re simply a shill for the Bush Administration, the government…etc.
But to the main point, the burden of proof is on the proponents of this theory to prove that it should be taken seriously. In all of the info provided, all I see is the second-hand account of one person, no bodies and a lot of assumptions.
And I don’t criticize this because it’s coming from McKinney. This is the very sort of thing that, was it coming from Nader’s mouth, I’d be questioning support for him as well. But then, Ralph, whatever his limitations, isn’t one to spout off big claims unless he has evidence and trusts the veracity of what he’s saying.
I don’t HAVE to discredit McKinney. She discredits herself when he attaches herself to stories like this and the 9/11 Truthers. I would criticize ANY candidate who openly espoused such things on a semi-regular basis.
And it gets a little tiring that the only response Jason gives to my criticism is insults and manichean tirades.
Yes, I’m a radical, but I’m also a skeptic. And I don’t immediately buy into a claim because it “feels right”, I want evidence. And the bigger the claim, the bigger the evidence I’ll require. And as long as the evidence is at slim or shaky as this, my default position will always be that of doubt.
74 The last redneck // Oct 7, 2008 at 12:54 pm