You seem to be somewhat confused.

A political party is not a court of law. It is not a political party’s job to prove allegations “beyond a reasonable doubt” or dismiss them entirely if it can’t. Nor, for that matter is operating from a presumption of innocence, strictly speaking, a political party’s function. A political party’s job is to choose candidates who represent it well both on ideology/issues and as people.

That said, to the best of my knowledge, nobody in the Boston Tea Party has played the “throw John Wayne Smith under the bus” game, least of all Charles Jay.

As a matter of fact THIS WHOLE CONTROVERSY arose from the fact that in the presidential campaign, one important value was to NOT publicly embarrass Mr. Smith with these allegations until and unless they could be substantiated — perhaps not “proven beyond a reasonable doubt,” but at least some basis beyond the claim itself for believing the allegations to be true.

The BTP national committee’s officers weren’t interested in throwing Mr. Smith under the bus (and I’m starting to tire of that expression, btw) either, but they are required to operate according to a different standard — they’re not ALLOWED to say “let’s not talk about this in public until we know more.”

Thus, an unfortunate situation turned into a conflict that’s gone well beyond the initial allegations. That happens.

The fact that different groups of people are constrained by different sets of rules doesn’t make either group “wrong.”

This affair also demonstrates some of the limits of communication via email. Mr. Jay took Mr. Davidson’s “secret cabal” remarks as sarcastic, and as indicating that yes, Mr. Davidson did indeed want to know what was being said in the presidential campaign (“monitor”). Now Mr. Davidson accuses Jay of lying, because Mr. Jay thought Mr. Davidson meant something that Mr. Davidson says he didn’t mean.

It’s a mess. I believe that Mr. Jay, Mr. Davidson, Mr. Bennett, Mr. Barnett, Ms. Hogarth (extend list as you like; there are, of course, reasonable questions as to the truthfulness of both accuser and accused, but they are questions, not conclusions ) are all acting in good faith and trying to do what they believe are the right things. That doesn’t necessarily make things easier or less messy … but it does support my believe that things will eventually get sorted out and that the party will come out the other side intact and stronger than ever.

There are some very demented women who make up stories for various reasons (men as well, I might add). The purpose of courts is to sort that out. If no court has ruled then taking the word of someone merely because they are making a nasty accusation is absurd. It invites false accusations as means of punishing people for other slights that are not criminal.

Innocent, until PROVEN guilty, ought to apply.

Hell, the way some cases have gone you could say that many people are still innocent after being found guilty but that is a different matter.

Have any charges ever been filed? Was there a court case? Was he found guilty? Unless we get a “yes” to all these questions, it is dead.

Comming, you missed one: It should be a “Kubby Coffee”, not a “cuppa coffee”. LOL!

Seriously, though, is this trip really necessary?

Thanks for that.

But, I think I’ll skip that Kubb y coffee….

it’s time for a Knapp.

Seriously, though, is this trip really necessary?

“So again, enjoy the infighting. It seems that’s what parties like the BTP do best.”

Not so much, really. Of the party’s 500 or so members, fewer than 10 are actively involved in this little dustup, and most of them reluctantly. so.

The Boston Tea Party has more members today than the LP had when it ran its first presidential ticket.

The Boston Tea Party’s first presidential slate is on more ballots than the LP’s first presidential slate was.

I consider it extremely likely that the Boston Tea Party’s first presidential slate will receive more votes than the LP’s first presidential slate did.

In the big scheme of things, that hardly rates as “success,” but it’s a metric at any rate — and a metric into which one might reasonably factor the fact that the BTP has to fight an established brand for the same electoral niche.

I expect the BTP to appear on more ballots in 2010 than it did in 2008.

I expect the BTP to appear on more ballots in 2012 than it does in 2010.

I expect the BTP to build a much larger list of current officeholders over time than it has at present (two, one local, one federal, one elected, one appointed).

Part of the good things in the current situation, and the prospects of future success, btw, is a lot of hard work on the part of Jim Davidson. Although he seems determined to attempt to destroy at least as much as he’s built with his current rampage, I don’t think he’ll succeed.

Maybe you’re right that this involved individuals instead of factions because one needs actual members to have factions.

All the BTP is is just a handful of disgruntled libertarians and apparently, that’s all it will ever amount to.

So again, enjoy the infighting. It seems that’s what parties like the BTP do best.

A tempest in a BOSTON teapot.

The only thing smaller than the Boston Tea Party breaking into factions would be the Milnes Party breaking into factions. (Of course, that has already happened.)

A nice Sam Adams beer at the Barr looks better now, eh?

(It used to be that I really liked ROOT Beer.)

(This is all too meaningless and silly not to pause for a bit of refreshing humor.)

And now, it’s time for a strong cuppa coffee.

Back to the LP guys.

The 2008 campaign is almost over. It’s time to get serious and smash the state.

Yes, it is a down side to the multiple VP idea — the first significant one I’ve come across.

The short version of what started this particular chain events is that Dagny Kira Barnes, the daughter of John Wayne Smith (the BTP’s balloted vice-presidential candidate in Florida) accuses her father of having molested her as a child. He denies the allegation.

In her email contact with Mr. Barnett, she was hot-tempered and planned to (quote from memory) “tell everyone I know what kind of person you run for vice-president.”

Another downside of the multiple VP idea.

Is this some kind of exercise in magic — “if I say the same thing three times, it may somehow become true?”

I’m unaware of any “intra-party factions” in the BTP at present. The conflict is entirely one of personalities, none of whom (myself included) have been making themselves look very good the last few days.

While I understand the motivations behind the Florida BTP’s action, I do believe it to have been a bad idea and I hope that it will be undone shortly.

I have requested that the BTP’s national committee take up the question of whether the party’s web site is to be the web site of a political party or a venue for personal feuds. If the former, then those feuds will be moved off its front page. If the latter, then you haven’t seen nasty yet.

An Offshoot of LP establishes itself and is now riven by intra-party factions (an after only two years too, that must be record timing) and now a disaffiliation but one of its few state affiliates. Cute. And what is this all about anyway? What important issue are arguing about here? The endorsement of a candidate? Somebody snooping on someone else’s conversations? Is this for real?

For all you “splitters” out there, just remember the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. Successful political parties by their inherent nature have factions and wings and they fight it out in primaries but come together in the end to support whoever wins unless that candidate diametrically opposes what you believe. And in that case, you sit on your hands, wait them out and then take over when the other faction proves it can’t win.

That’ s why Mary Ruwart and Steve Kubby were smart not to leave the LP National Committee to join the nascent BTP. They may very be back in charge if Bob Barr doesn’t get over a million votes and will probably take Bill Redpath down with him.

Does this split mean the end of the BTP? Why don’t we just say the BTP never really got started to begin with.

But hey, enjoy your little spitwad shooting war nonetheless. You’ll certainly prove it isn’t just the socialists who love tearing themselves apart over nothing.

An Offshoot of LP establishes itself and is now riven by intra-party factions (an after only two years too, that must be record timing) and now a disaffiliation but one of its few state affiliates. Cute. And what is this all about anyway? What important issue are arguing about here? The endorsement of a candidate? Somebody snooping on someone else’s conversations? Is this for real?

For all you “splitters” out there, just remember the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. Successful political parties by their inherent nature have factions and wings and they fight it out in primaries but come together in the end to support whoever wins unless that candidate diametrically opposes what you believe. And in that case, you sit on your hands, wait them out and then take over when the other faction proves it can’t win.

That’ s why Mary Ruwart and Steve Kubby were smart not to leave the LP National Committee to join the nascent BTP. They may very be back in charge if Bob Barr doesn’t get over a million votes and will probably take Bill Redpath down with him.

Does this split mean the end of the BTP? Why don’t we just say the BTP never really got started to begin with.

But hey, enjoy your little spitwad shooting war nonetheless. You’ll certainly prove it just the socialists who love tearing themselves apart over nothing.

An Offshoot of LP establishes itself and is now riven by intra-party factions (an after only two years too, that must be record timing) and now a disaffiliation but one of its few state affiliates. Cute. And what is this all about anyway? What important issue are arguing about here? The endorsement of a candidate? Somebody snopping on someone else’s conversations? Is this for real?

For all you “splitters” out there, just remember the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. Successful political parties by their inherent nature have factions and wings and they fight it out in primaries but come together in the end to support whoever wins unless that candidate diametrically opposes what you believe. And in that case, you sit on your hands, wait them out and then take over when the other faction proves it can’t win.

That’ s why Mary Ruwart and Steve Kubby were smart not to leave the LP National Committee to join the nascent BTP. They may very be back in charge if Bob Barr doesn’t get over a million votes and will probably take Bill Redpath down with him.

Does this split mean the end of the BTP? Why don’t we just say the BTP never really got started to begin with.

But hey, enjoy your little spitwad shooting war nonetheless. You’ll certainly prove it just the socialists who love tearing themselves apart over nothing.

The only thing the BTP does nationally is elect a presidential candidate, everything else is state-level.

Our national committee endorses candidates in areas not under the authority of a state affiliate. The committee may also issue resolutions expressing the party’s position on issues, such as the recent BTPNC Resolution Against $850 Billion Bailout Package. The membership of the national party also votes on the party program.

Is this the beginning of the end of the Boston Tea Party?

The BTP is electing a new National Committee at a convention next week. Those of us running for positions on the committee (I am one of them) intend to clean up this mess, restore the Florida affiliate, put this issue behind us, and continue building the party toward a larger membership and more elected public officials. After November 5th, Charles Jay is no longer the party’s candidate for President and Jim Davidson is no longer the party’s national chair. This feud was between a handful of people with a few other people taking sides. I am not one of those people, and as far as I can tell neither is Chris Bennett who is running for Chair. If we are elected next week, we will quickly get things back in order.

The short version of what started this particular chain events is that Dagny Kira Barnes, the daughter of John Wayne Smith (the BTP’s balloted vice-presidential candidate in Florida) accuses her father of having molested her as a child. He denies the allegation.

Ms. Barnes contacted two people with this allegation: First, Mr. Barnett (the party’s vice-chair); secondly, myself.

In her email contact with Mr. Barnett, she was hot-tempered and planned to (quote from memory) “tell everyone I know what kind of person you run for vice-president.”

In her phone contact with me, she had apparently cooled down (her first knowledge that her father was on the ballot was when she received a sample ballot in the mail), and stated that she wasn’t going to attempt to publicize the matter, but thought that the BTP should know about it.

Mr. Barnett and I handled the allegations very differently. He is a party officer with certain obligations. I’m not. So I do agree that he had to bring the matter to the party’s notice, while I didn’t. I felt that he was rude and hurtful in the manner of his response to her, but after talking with him I believe that there was no intent to be so, and consider it water under the bridge.

Naturally, the presidential campaign had no interest in this being a matter of public discussion two weeks before the election, especially given the lack of evidence on which to base a conclusion.

But, that’s the way it goes. The BTP values transparency per se more than it values transient image effects, and I think that’s a good thing.

Apparently, it’s going to keep getting weirder yet. I’ll try to keep people posted.

The BTP’s ticket is still on the ballot in Florida, Tennessee and Colorado. It is still a write-in option in various places. It’s still a vote for liberty in places where no other such vote is available.