not that I am a fan of Jim Davidson’s, but the statement that you have made is, as far as i know, completely false. Maybe you should go farther up this message board and reread the part where you thought you read that.

you must be a friend of Todd’s. good for you.

wow, todd, i must say that i am extremely impressed with your ability to communicate as well as your grasp of the english language. (sarcasm included — hint, hint…)

i think dagnyb is cracking up here poor todd how mean they are to you

Rock on.

is that supposed to be a sign of sexual harassment on your part, dagnyb

it sounds gross. ewwwww.

hey paulie, did you ‘hear’ the sarcasm? hopefully others did as well.

i had no idea you can hear text of a comment on a webpage

wow, do you, like, have superhearing too
can you fly at super speed at superman
and if you do, do you get a secret decoder ring too?

-jgg

Rock on.

I never claimed to be rational. I never claimed to be sane.

….

[seven paragraphs of pissing contest elided]

Fail

-Jerry Springer

You know, Susan, I’m not going to get into a childish pissing contest with you. I have no idea why you’re involving yourself in this, because this has nothing to do with you. But, whatever!

You can look at me, spit at me, and make me out to be Satan Incarnate for all I care. You can make me out to be the villain in all of this, and, even if I do object, protest, or even dispute it, but it’s not going to work.

You’ve got a lot of goddamn nerve to tell me. FYI, I do *think*, just not the way you would like me to. This has nothing to do with my girlfriend and me. I’m not going to justify myself to you, and I don’t fucking answer to you.

I never claimed to be rational. I never claimed to be sane. I never claimed to be a saint. And I never claimed to be an angel with a halo over my head. But then again, why don’t you try looking in the mirror for once? You’re not fucking angel yourself, sister.

You’re a nasty, venal, and vile ass. Oh, and let’s not forget vain too! I’m not going to get into a debate match with you, because you are NOT fucking worth it. You can take your LPRadicals group and your “I’m-gonna-bitch-at-Todd-because-I-can’t-stand-him-and-it’s-fun” crap and shove it up your ass!!!!

I despise you. You’re a fucking asshole, and I want nothing to do with you. So go ahead, bitch! Make me out to the fucking, evil person. In fact, I’ll enjoy playing that role if it makes you feel better. Besides, being a fucking evil person is more fun than being the nice, laid-back person who gets trampled on and walked over.

I’ve had it with you. Just take your statist, collectivistic ass and shove it for once!!

If you fell off a fucking cliff, I wouldn’t fucking care.

Todd

Why don’t we follow the example of the LP and just agree that this is all Angela Keaton’s fault, and that she’s the reason we can’t have nice things?

Yeah, that’ll work!

Yes, I did come off as combative to you, Dagny, and for good reason. Crystal Gail Mangum, the accuser of the accused Duke LaCross team players at Duke University, claimed she was raped too, but her story was found to be a crock.

Your ‘good reason’ for being ‘combative’ to someone you don’t know is that some other woman has lied about a completely unrelated incident?

Excuse me, but wtf?

I still pity you, but less and less as I see evidence of your unwillingness to *think*. No matter how many emotional issues you have dealing (or not dealing) with women, you should still be able to apply basic logic.

Let me help you out: Dagny is not Crystal.

This is not rocket science, especially for someone who rails about ‘collectivism’.

I am highly skeptical that anyone actually consented to marry you, but I suppose it’s possible. I hope she changes her mind when she realizes that her boyfriend discusses her rape history in public – in the service of ‘proving’ that another woman that neither of you know is lying. Maybe she’s the same kind of drama queen as you and thinks that sort of ‘sharing’ with strangers is cool. If so, I pity her.

In fact, I pity her anyway – assuming she exists in more than your mind. After all, she’s engaged to you.

And while I’m on the subject of idiots:

It is good to see Hogarth sneer at D&D and SCA people. Many of my age peers who played at those games went on to found major video game companies (see also John Carmack) and invent Massively Multiplayer Online Games and avatar networking sites like Second Life.

Keyword here is ‘went on to…’. They actually grew up and stopped acting like emotionally retarded 14-year olds.

Yup, it is such an embarrassment to be involved in fun things to do which so many billions of dollars have come from. Gosh.

Millions of dollars have ‘come from’ pornography, too. That doesn’t mean that every guy who thumbs through Penthouse is Larry Flint.

Gosh.

There are a large number of women I admire, including historical ones such as Emma Goldman and contemporary ones such as Angela Keaton. I have written extensively on women’s issues, gender issues, sexism, and other forms of bigotry. It would take very little effort on your part to find numerous essays by me. I’ve written a great deal, and been paid considerable sums for the work. You might be able to find some things I’ve written about particular women, or women generally.

I am committed to openness. I believe that secrecy has killed the LP. I believe that secrecy has totally subverted the GOP and the Democratic party. I am involved here in part of an experiment. This part is the public face part. The experiment is The Boston Tea Party founded in 2006, still working out some of its processes.

I do want people to question the folks with whom I am associated. I do it myself, quite a bit.

Given that my response to learning of the message you sent to Todd was to say that we could not hide this information, we could not be perceived to be hiding it, we could not wait until after the election to deliberate about it, and that Todd should immediately post it to the FloridaBTP and BTPnc-talk lists, I really don’t see where you can conceivably characterise my position as seeking to prevent anyone in the party from being questioned.

Within a few hours, your father had responded, denying the allegation, identifying you as his daughter, and indicating that he felt you had done this accusation thing previously. I should note that because Todd did what I told him to do, John found out what you were saying.

Strangely, Tom took your phone call and Darcy and Charles discussed the issue with Tom, and John knew nothing from them until much later. Yet, I am supposedly, according to you, the one who has difficulty with people around me being questioned. In case you weren’t aware, I regarded at the time the accusations came forward that John was the most valuable state party chair we had and an incredible organiser for us in his state.

I have continued to stand for openness in this matter, including several of the particular offshoot controversies, such as whether I was demanding to see all of Charles Jay’s personal correspondence. The reason so much of my correspondence and his on this matter is now on the BTP’s Yahoogroups is because I insisted on it.

So don’t come to me about truth telling. I’ve given you ample opportunity to tell your version of events. I have given you ample opportunity to bring forward other witnesses, other victims of other abuses by John (rape, assault, survivors of murder victims, fraud, theft, vandalism – do you have any other criminal charges?), or any other evidence of any sort. The only thing I’ve been able to corroborate is that there was a case where John was accused in court of bigamy. I don’t see a conviction, and I’m not clear how it is any concern of the state or anyone else that three women were married to one man.

We’ve repeatedly asked you what you expect us to do. Do you want us to put your father in prison? Would that satisfy your sense of justice? Maybe we could remove his testicles and give them to you? Would you like us to tattoo “rapist” on his forehead? Or do you understand that we cannot engage in initiatory force against John without compelling evidence that he has committed an act which would make it retaliatory force, instead?

I don’t know that you are telling the truth. I don’t think anyone else can know. John is the only other person in the world who could corroborate what you say happened, and he denies it. I understand that you believe you are telling the truth, and I have at no time stopped you from telling your truths. I have the power to prevent you from posting to the BTP’s Yahoo groups, but I have not done so, because I want you to be able to post your words there. I have no power over this site, but even if I did, I would not seek to prevent you from posting here.

It would be great if you told us what you want. I understand that you have a great need for attention. I wonder if it can be filled. Anyway, here we are, paying attention to you.

How may we be of further service?

You have seen my suggestions on the BTP Yahoo group pages. I have suggested that the only way you can expect to get beyond what happened is sit down with your mother and with your father, perhaps with a counselor or lawyer or priest or judge, and talk about what happened. How you felt about it. Why you chose to run away from home. Why your mother didn’t help you when you had difficulties with your father. Why your father did what you say he did. Why your parents divorced. These all seem like issues that you haven’t gotten past. And, as long as you don’t get past them, you’ll be bringing them up in different ways, in different places.

Take for a moment the position that everything you have said is true. It is horrifying. You survived terrible events as a child. You should never have been treated that way. Your father doing the things you describe is a terrible betrayal. You should have been loved and respected and left in your own space and not abused, not molested. There is also a betrayal that your mother didn’t perceive these events and do anything to help, though that is a much lesser thing. It probably affects you, though, because it is another loving relationship that didn’t prevent something terrible happening. Wouldn’t it help you get past these issues if your father admitted what he did and apologised? Wouldn’t it help you if your mother believed you and regretted it and asked to help you? Wouldn’t it be better if you could get reconciliation, understanding, or at least admission, from some of the people in your family?

But, look, those people aren’t here. Your mother isn’t here. Your father isn’t here. So talking to us is not useful. It doesn’t fix what happened. It has not caused anyone else to come forward to present other evidence of what happened to you, or what happened to them at the hands of the same person. We aren’t a court of law, we cannot convict your father, we have no power to punish him, and because we cannot prove what you say is true, we cannot do anything more to him than has already happened.

So why not talk to your mom instead? I don’t get it. She might have some insights. I sure don’t.

The events which have transpired since you first sent your message to Todd include: your father has resigned from the Florida BTP, your father has stopped campaigning, your father has left the BTP; the Florida BTP has disaffiliated from national; the vice chair, Todd, has resigned from his office and dropped out of his race; the chair of the BTP and its presidential candidate are no longer speaking to each other. None of these things that have happened are your fault. But they are consequences that follow from actions taken as a result of your actions to contact Todd and Tom. Some of these things are consequences of actions that I took.

It is all my fault. Really. It is my personal responsibility as the chair of the Boston Tea Party to guide the other officers when they seek guidance, to respond to inquiries from the presidential candidate, to respond to others in the party, to handle extremely bizarre criticisms from one of our endorsed candidates, to respond to discussions on our party lists, to respond in discussions on other sites as I see fit, and to lead the party. In my work in this area, I have chosen to stand on the principles of the party: openness, not secrecy; limited scope to the national party, not omnipotence, and no budget authority; control of the party’s direction by its members, not by its presidential candidate. Where we are as a result of how we responded to your message to Todd and your phone call to Tom is my responsibility. And I can live with the results.

We are not super human. We had no crystal ball to foretell the future. We had no knowledge of your allegations because you have not bothered to follow your father’s activities. Even though we issued press releases, in Florida, about his candidacy, you didn’t contact us because you didn’t see them. We didn’t know about the bigamy thing when we agreed that, because our national candidate didn’t have the ability to get papers notarised, that your father could run in Florida, and in Florida only. We didn’t know about your allegations of child molestation. So, we did our best with the people who came forward to work with us. And when you contacted us, we did our best to respond.

Mistakes were made. People were unpleasant with you and with each other, and were also direct with you, blunt to the point of making it clear that mere allegation wasn’t enough to convince us. And I am okay with all of it. People make mistakes because they are human, and humans are imperfect. I live with my mistakes every day. People are emotional, and that’s a part of life, and those who want everyone to be a robot or a Vulcan are just silly. So if you don’t like being insulted or mistrusted or betrayed, go live as a hermit somewhere. Or be with God. If you want to be here on Earth, you get to deal with people as they are. And many people suck at being decent to each other. I should know.

If the cost of openness and control of the party by its members is that the presidential candidate of the party wants my resignation, I don’t mind. I won’t resign, but I can pay the price of causing him to want my resignation. That was easy.

If the cost of openness and control of the party by its members is the loss of the Florida chapter, that’s a hard burden to bear. But we’ve paid it. And I don’t know how to avoid that cost. And I think openness and control of the party by its members are values, are principles, that are more important than whether we have a state affiliate in Florida for the next few weeks. We can, after all, find other people to form one there.

But, Ms. Barnes, I don’t know how to help you. Does it help that you’ve caused all this stuff to get going by throwing your poison pen letter through the transom? Does it help that you’ve placed your father in an untenable position, which he has now left? Does it satisfy your sense of vengefulness and vindictiveness to see him leave our party (voluntarily, and not in disgrace, but he’s left)? Does it satisfy your sense of justice that many more people know about your father now? And many more people know about you?

Have you got all the attention you want? Is there anything missing that we could provide?

We cannot undo the betrayal, the feelings, the hurt, the years of being unhappy. We cannot provide the love and the decency and the safe environment that you deserved as a child. None of us know you very well. We’re just these weird people with this other political party.

I would very much like to help you, if there is anything that I can do. But, other than to say what I have said, and think what I have thought, what is it that I may do for you? I would sincerely like you to stop bringing this issue up with me, as I have done and said what I can about it.

I would also sincerely like to see you find some fulfillment, satisfaction, or completion in this matter. But, given what you have said, what has happened, what has been said to you, I don’t know how to obtain that result for you.

I do think that I can eliminate some people who cannot help you feel better or live a better, safer, happier life. Todd. Ms. Hogarth. Paulie. Me. Tom. Charles. Darcy. GE. Ross. George Dance. George Phillies, just to throw in a random name.

I suspect that what happiness, security, and well being you can obtain must come from you, primarily, and to an extent from your family. If you want to get past the things in your past that happened, then directly confronting the man involved while he yet lives might be useful – I have seen it done and I have heard about it being done, so I think there is evidence it could be useful.

But this business of commenting on what has happened, who did what in response to what they read, and how that made them feel – how does it help you?

We cannot help it because it is important to us to discuss how we handle situations in the future that bear some resemblance to this one. We don’t know how to gain national political power, nor influence, so we have to squeeze every event for any lessons we might learn to advance in our understanding. It is endemic in the type of people we are that we have discussions about what has happened.

But I don’t know why you want to involve yourself. It seems like opening an old wound and it seems likely to inflict new ones. It must make you feel somewhat like a victim, all over again. And I don’t know what to do about that.

I am very sorry for your loss of innocence as a child. I am very sorry for your suffering. I very much regret that you have had a hard life.