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	<title>Comments on: Libertarian Reform leader tells Paul supporters to check out CP platform</title>
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	<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-reform-leader-tells-paul-supporters-to-check-out-cp-platform/</link>
	<description>Covering America's third parties and independent candidates since May 2008</description>
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		<title>By: paulie cannoli</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-reform-leader-tells-paul-supporters-to-check-out-cp-platform/comment-page-3/#comment-15659</link>
		<dc:creator>paulie cannoli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 06:21:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=2301#comment-15659</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll vote my conscience, and that will not be Baldwin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll vote my conscience, and that will not be Baldwin.</p>
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		<title>By: iamanamerican</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-reform-leader-tells-paul-supporters-to-check-out-cp-platform/comment-page-3/#comment-15648</link>
		<dc:creator>iamanamerican</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 06:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=2301#comment-15648</guid>
		<description>Anyone who has a conscience knows there is a difference between RIGHT and WRONG.

Vote Your Conscience. Vote for Chuck Baldwin.

= OPENDEBATES.ORG =</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone who has a conscience knows there is a difference between RIGHT and WRONG.</p>
<p>Vote Your Conscience. Vote for Chuck Baldwin.</p>
<p>= OPENDEBATES.ORG =</p>
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		<title>By: libertyinlaw</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-reform-leader-tells-paul-supporters-to-check-out-cp-platform/comment-page-3/#comment-14946</link>
		<dc:creator>libertyinlaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 15:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=2301#comment-14946</guid>
		<description>Blah blah blah blah.  Arguing about who was or who wasn&#039;t a liberty oriented or pro-liberty is a complete waste of time.  

Why are we relying on man&#039;s corruptible wisdom?  They all took an oath of office and were charged with following the Constitution.  If they did not -- that is the standard we use to dismiss their effectiveness.  Not their ideas.

It really is as simple as that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blah blah blah blah.  Arguing about who was or who wasn&#8217;t a liberty oriented or pro-liberty is a complete waste of time.  </p>
<p>Why are we relying on man&#8217;s corruptible wisdom?  They all took an oath of office and were charged with following the Constitution.  If they did not &#8212; that is the standard we use to dismiss their effectiveness.  Not their ideas.</p>
<p>It really is as simple as that.</p>
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		<title>By: G.E.</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-reform-leader-tells-paul-supporters-to-check-out-cp-platform/comment-page-3/#comment-14793</link>
		<dc:creator>G.E.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 03:39:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=2301#comment-14793</guid>
		<description>For those interested in the Jeffersonian Caucus, see here: http://lastfreevoice.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/jeffersonian-democrats-lets-bring-them-back/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those interested in the Jeffersonian Caucus, see here: <a href="http://lastfreevoice.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/jeffersonian-democrats-lets-bring-them-back/" rel="nofollow">http://lastfreevoice.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/jeffersonian-democrats-lets-bring-them-back/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Michael Seebeck</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-reform-leader-tells-paul-supporters-to-check-out-cp-platform/comment-page-3/#comment-14634</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Seebeck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 02:26:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=2301#comment-14634</guid>
		<description>Nope, G.E. I don&#039;t agree with George on that one.  Most anything centralized is a bad idea, mainly because it violates the principle of having a piece of bureaucracy at the proper-lowest level to deal with it.  &quot;Scope of control&quot;  I believe it&#039;s called, but it has been  awhile, so I could have that wrong.  It&#039;s twin is &quot;span of control&quot;, which means that control of a group should be limited to that which can be reasonably handled--another concept anatheme to centralization.

Ironically, the military subscribes to these concepts and uses them usually pretty well.

As for the fiat vs. fractional, you are correct, fiat makes fractional work &quot;better&quot;, as we&#039;ve seen the past few days, but they both suck.

And I don&#039;t shun critics of anything.  I may disagree with them, but because 80% of the world are well-meaning yet uninformed idiots, 10% are ruthless evildoers in charge, and the other 10% we fall into are the angry cynics that can tell the difference, it&#039;s easy to disagree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nope, G.E. I don&#8217;t agree with George on that one.  Most anything centralized is a bad idea, mainly because it violates the principle of having a piece of bureaucracy at the proper-lowest level to deal with it.  &#8220;Scope of control&#8221;  I believe it&#8217;s called, but it has been  awhile, so I could have that wrong.  It&#8217;s twin is &#8220;span of control&#8221;, which means that control of a group should be limited to that which can be reasonably handled&#8211;another concept anatheme to centralization.</p>
<p>Ironically, the military subscribes to these concepts and uses them usually pretty well.</p>
<p>As for the fiat vs. fractional, you are correct, fiat makes fractional work &#8220;better&#8221;, as we&#8217;ve seen the past few days, but they both suck.</p>
<p>And I don&#8217;t shun critics of anything.  I may disagree with them, but because 80% of the world are well-meaning yet uninformed idiots, 10% are ruthless evildoers in charge, and the other 10% we fall into are the angry cynics that can tell the difference, it&#8217;s easy to disagree.</p>
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		<title>By: G.E.</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-reform-leader-tells-paul-supporters-to-check-out-cp-platform/comment-page-3/#comment-14560</link>
		<dc:creator>G.E.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 00:19:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=2301#comment-14560</guid>
		<description>Actually, fractional-reserve banking existed before fiat currency. They are separate problems -- but of course, fiat currency and a government-controlled banking system makes fractional reserve banking &quot;work better.&quot;

I thought you said you agreed with George Phillies that &quot;critics of central banking&quot; should be shunned, Michael?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, fractional-reserve banking existed before fiat currency. They are separate problems &#8212; but of course, fiat currency and a government-controlled banking system makes fractional reserve banking &#8220;work better.&#8221;</p>
<p>I thought you said you agreed with George Phillies that &#8220;critics of central banking&#8221; should be shunned, Michael?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Seebeck</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-reform-leader-tells-paul-supporters-to-check-out-cp-platform/comment-page-3/#comment-14508</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Seebeck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:35:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=2301#comment-14508</guid>
		<description>To clarify, #9 is the least problematic, but it is still so in that it fails to mention the real problem behind fractional banking, which is fiat currency.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To clarify, #9 is the least problematic, but it is still so in that it fails to mention the real problem behind fractional banking, which is fiat currency.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Seebeck</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-reform-leader-tells-paul-supporters-to-check-out-cp-platform/comment-page-3/#comment-14507</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Seebeck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:24:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=2301#comment-14507</guid>
		<description>Red,

&quot;#12 is anachronistic. There is no need to restate support of the Monroe Doctrine. No European powers are meddling here, and I donâ€™t see that as an issue in the near future. Iâ€™m not sure I would welcome any meddling but an entire hemisphere seems like a large area to carve out as your sphere of influence. &quot;

Tell that to the Russians doing wargames in Venezuela and resuming bomber overflights of Canada.  The Cold War is starting to come back into town on top of everything else, unfortunatey, but you won&#039;t hear much about in American media.

But I agree, #12 is simply hemispheric interventionsim.  In fact, all of 1-12 are just weird, if not outright incorrect, as is the gambling and porn planks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Red,</p>
<p>&#8220;#12 is anachronistic. There is no need to restate support of the Monroe Doctrine. No European powers are meddling here, and I donâ€™t see that as an issue in the near future. Iâ€™m not sure I would welcome any meddling but an entire hemisphere seems like a large area to carve out as your sphere of influence. &#8221;</p>
<p>Tell that to the Russians doing wargames in Venezuela and resuming bomber overflights of Canada.  The Cold War is starting to come back into town on top of everything else, unfortunatey, but you won&#8217;t hear much about in American media.</p>
<p>But I agree, #12 is simply hemispheric interventionsim.  In fact, all of 1-12 are just weird, if not outright incorrect, as is the gambling and porn planks.</p>
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		<title>By: chinese_conservative</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-reform-leader-tells-paul-supporters-to-check-out-cp-platform/comment-page-3/#comment-14406</link>
		<dc:creator>chinese_conservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:35:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=2301#comment-14406</guid>
		<description>Actually these terms of conservatives and liberals is a bit too simplistic because Ron Paul is a neo-classic liberal and Joe Lieberman is a neo-conservative. What we need to keep in mind is that alot of &quot;liberals&quot; are actually conservatives who oppose neo-conservatism not neo-conservative. They would discover they were conservatives if there were more people like Ron Paul. These terms can be confusing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually these terms of conservatives and liberals is a bit too simplistic because Ron Paul is a neo-classic liberal and Joe Lieberman is a neo-conservative. What we need to keep in mind is that alot of &#8220;liberals&#8221; are actually conservatives who oppose neo-conservatism not neo-conservative. They would discover they were conservatives if there were more people like Ron Paul. These terms can be confusing.</p>
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		<title>By: darolew</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-reform-leader-tells-paul-supporters-to-check-out-cp-platform/comment-page-3/#comment-14383</link>
		<dc:creator>darolew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 07:09:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=2301#comment-14383</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;What about â€œClassical Liberal Democratsâ€ for a caucus name?&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Bit long, no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;What about â€œClassical Liberal Democratsâ€ for a caucus name?&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Bit long, no?</p>
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		<title>By: amyb31416</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-reform-leader-tells-paul-supporters-to-check-out-cp-platform/comment-page-3/#comment-14369</link>
		<dc:creator>amyb31416</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 04:57:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=2301#comment-14369</guid>
		<description>Hahahhaa!

On that note, *flushes toilet*, there are no jokes when it comes to the PATRIOT Act.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hahahhaa!</p>
<p>On that note, *flushes toilet*, there are no jokes when it comes to the PATRIOT Act.</p>
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		<title>By: Trent Hill</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-reform-leader-tells-paul-supporters-to-check-out-cp-platform/comment-page-3/#comment-14367</link>
		<dc:creator>Trent Hill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 04:32:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=2301#comment-14367</guid>
		<description>good thing you&#039;ve got that disclaimer--otherwise your door would be getting kicked down right.....about.......NOW.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>good thing you&#8217;ve got that disclaimer&#8211;otherwise your door would be getting kicked down right&#8230;..about&#8230;&#8230;.NOW.</p>
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		<title>By: G.E.</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-reform-leader-tells-paul-supporters-to-check-out-cp-platform/comment-page-3/#comment-14365</link>
		<dc:creator>G.E.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 04:13:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=2301#comment-14365</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Other than that I just like doing stuff other people are scared to do, like work with nasty chemicalsâ€¦&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Maybe you could help us set up a Meth lab to fund our startup costs?

[To be clear under the PATRIOT Act, the above was a joke]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Other than that I just like doing stuff other people are scared to do, like work with nasty chemicalsâ€¦</p></blockquote>
<p>Maybe you could help us set up a Meth lab to fund our startup costs?</p>
<p>[To be clear under the PATRIOT Act, the above was a joke]</p>
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		<title>By: amyb31416</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-reform-leader-tells-paul-supporters-to-check-out-cp-platform/comment-page-3/#comment-14364</link>
		<dc:creator>amyb31416</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 04:05:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=2301#comment-14364</guid>
		<description>Oh, and I like long walks on the beach.

Crap, wrong website.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and I like long walks on the beach.</p>
<p>Crap, wrong website.</p>
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		<title>By: amyb31416</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-reform-leader-tells-paul-supporters-to-check-out-cp-platform/comment-page-3/#comment-14363</link>
		<dc:creator>amyb31416</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 04:04:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=2301#comment-14363</guid>
		<description>Paulie Cannoli sez: 

&quot;I got the impression you were/are a Ron Paul activist? What campaign activities were you involved in?

Even if nothing else, another person to bounce around ideas would be cool.&quot;

Well, if you&#039;re talking to me, I was a precinct leader for RP, worked the polls during the primaries trying to get RP delegates elected, promoted RP online and donated more money than I could afford.

Other than that I just like doing stuff other people are scared to do, like work with nasty chemicals...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paulie Cannoli sez: </p>
<p>&#8220;I got the impression you were/are a Ron Paul activist? What campaign activities were you involved in?</p>
<p>Even if nothing else, another person to bounce around ideas would be cool.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, if you&#8217;re talking to me, I was a precinct leader for RP, worked the polls during the primaries trying to get RP delegates elected, promoted RP online and donated more money than I could afford.</p>
<p>Other than that I just like doing stuff other people are scared to do, like work with nasty chemicals&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: chuckmoulton</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-reform-leader-tells-paul-supporters-to-check-out-cp-platform/comment-page-3/#comment-14352</link>
		<dc:creator>chuckmoulton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 03:06:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=2301#comment-14352</guid>
		<description>What about &quot;Classical Liberal Democrats&quot; for a caucus name?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about &#8220;Classical Liberal Democrats&#8221; for a caucus name?</p>
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		<title>By: G.E.</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-reform-leader-tells-paul-supporters-to-check-out-cp-platform/comment-page-3/#comment-14346</link>
		<dc:creator>G.E.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 02:34:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=2301#comment-14346</guid>
		<description>Considering three things:

1) The low level of &quot;conservative support&quot; for Ron Paul

2) The high level of CP and LP support

3) That &quot;libertarian&quot; wasn&#039;t an exit-polling choice in terms of ideology

... the fact is that a large amount of the self-described &quot;conservatives&quot; are likely to be Republicans. The Republicans who voted for Paul were probably largely liberal anti-war Republicans. Because you KNOW the CP voters said &quot;very conservative.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Considering three things:</p>
<p>1) The low level of &#8220;conservative support&#8221; for Ron Paul</p>
<p>2) The high level of CP and LP support</p>
<p>3) That &#8220;libertarian&#8221; wasn&#8217;t an exit-polling choice in terms of ideology</p>
<p>&#8230; the fact is that a large amount of the self-described &#8220;conservatives&#8221; are likely to be Republicans. The Republicans who voted for Paul were probably largely liberal anti-war Republicans. Because you KNOW the CP voters said &#8220;very conservative.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: RedPhillips</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-reform-leader-tells-paul-supporters-to-check-out-cp-platform/comment-page-3/#comment-14344</link>
		<dc:creator>RedPhillips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 02:12:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=2301#comment-14344</guid>
		<description>&quot;I am not personally cut out for major party work, but more power to those who are.&quot;

I should add as long as he doesn&#039;t slavishly vote for the nominee no matter how bad he may be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I am not personally cut out for major party work, but more power to those who are.&#8221;</p>
<p>I should add as long as he doesn&#8217;t slavishly vote for the nominee no matter how bad he may be.</p>
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		<title>By: RedPhillips</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-reform-leader-tells-paul-supporters-to-check-out-cp-platform/comment-page-3/#comment-14343</link>
		<dc:creator>RedPhillips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 02:10:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=2301#comment-14343</guid>
		<description>&quot;G.E., I am aware of some of the exit polling data you are referring to, and at the time I was surprised and disappointed by it.&quot;

I mean this as an indictment of self-identified conservatives. Their lack of support for Paul indicates they are not serious about their conservatism or don&#039;t really understand what it means to be a conservative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;G.E., I am aware of some of the exit polling data you are referring to, and at the time I was surprised and disappointed by it.&#8221;</p>
<p>I mean this as an indictment of self-identified conservatives. Their lack of support for Paul indicates they are not serious about their conservatism or don&#8217;t really understand what it means to be a conservative.</p>
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		<title>By: RedPhillips</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/09/libertarian-reform-leader-tells-paul-supporters-to-check-out-cp-platform/comment-page-3/#comment-14342</link>
		<dc:creator>RedPhillips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 02:03:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=2301#comment-14342</guid>
		<description>G.E., I am aware of some of the exit polling data you are referring to, and at the time I was surprised and disappointed by it. What I said was that the conservative element of Paul&#039;s support also supported Buchanan in &#039;96. I donâ€™t personally know any conservative Paul supporter who didn&#039;t also support Buchanan in &#039;96 assuming they were politically involved at the time. 

Paul&#039;s coalition was odd and probably unique to the man. He attracted some votes that were more generic protest votes. Some leftists. Many libertarians. His support among self identified Republicans was low. But many of the conservatives who supported him were not conservatives who identify as Republicans for good reason. The people who vote for him for Congress in his district are conservatives (with a Texas independent streak) and see him as such also

As for the GOP or Dems, it is not a matter of which Party you want to &quot;restore.&quot; The history of the parties is interesting but largely meaningless. But which one you think would be easiest to infiltrate and transform or at least influence.

Assuming a person has a set agenda they are trying to accomplish and isn&#039;t a blatant political pragmatist, whether he works within one of the two major parties or outside them seems to me to be largely a matter of strategy and temperament. Is it more likely to reform the GOP or supplant it with a new party? I am not personally cut out for major party work, but more power to those who are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>G.E., I am aware of some of the exit polling data you are referring to, and at the time I was surprised and disappointed by it. What I said was that the conservative element of Paul&#8217;s support also supported Buchanan in &#8217;96. I donâ€™t personally know any conservative Paul supporter who didn&#8217;t also support Buchanan in &#8217;96 assuming they were politically involved at the time. </p>
<p>Paul&#8217;s coalition was odd and probably unique to the man. He attracted some votes that were more generic protest votes. Some leftists. Many libertarians. His support among self identified Republicans was low. But many of the conservatives who supported him were not conservatives who identify as Republicans for good reason. The people who vote for him for Congress in his district are conservatives (with a Texas independent streak) and see him as such also</p>
<p>As for the GOP or Dems, it is not a matter of which Party you want to &#8220;restore.&#8221; The history of the parties is interesting but largely meaningless. But which one you think would be easiest to infiltrate and transform or at least influence.</p>
<p>Assuming a person has a set agenda they are trying to accomplish and isn&#8217;t a blatant political pragmatist, whether he works within one of the two major parties or outside them seems to me to be largely a matter of strategy and temperament. Is it more likely to reform the GOP or supplant it with a new party? I am not personally cut out for major party work, but more power to those who are.</p>
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