In a post at Comedy Central’s Indecision 2008 the cable channel’s blog says
A few weeks ago, we submitted a list of questions for Rosa Clemente, the Green Party’s nominee for vice president of the United States. This week, she handed our ass back to us.
Supporters are encouraging the channel to invite Clemente onto the Colbert Report or the Daily Show.
90 responses so far ↓
1 Mike Gillis // Aug 9, 2008 at 6:54 pm
She didn’t come across well, IMO.
She wasted an opportunity to reach young people by being unsubstantive, combative and typing in all CAPS.
2 Gregg Jocoy // Aug 9, 2008 at 7:01 pm
I noticed the all caps thing too. I had assumed that Comedy Central did that and not Rosa based in part on the fact that Rosa commented on the story herself, pointing out that Comedy Central had a photo of McKinney on a story about Clemente, and that comment was not all caps.
Mike Gillis is am aduocate for Nader, and I can understand that, but why is it Mike that whenever there is anything positive going on about the Green Party or McKinney you jump up to raise your issues? Is there not enough in the Bush administration or Obama’s record to go after, or do you somehow believe that these constant attacks on the Greens is somehow going to “wake” us all up so we (all 1500 of us) will vote for Nader?
You know, one can support Nader without having to attack McKinney, Clemente and the Greens at every opportunity.
3 Fred Church Ortiz // Aug 9, 2008 at 7:37 pm
IND: What’s the 3rd party convention scene like?
RC: WHITE FOLKS THOUGHT WE WERE THE HELP
Classic.
4 Mike Gillis // Aug 9, 2008 at 7:52 pm
I wasn’t attacking McKinney or the Greens just now. I was just trying to give constructive criticism.
Clemente came across badly in that interview. Perhaps people that support her that feel the same way can contact her about it and she can change that in the future.
I’ve seen you (and plenty of Greens) do a lot more “attacking”, Greg, by constantly spreading lies about Nader’s support for the Greens in the past and a number of other things.
It’s like the Greens want people to just clap and jump for joy, otherwise we’re “attacking” you.
As a progressive voter, even if Nader were not in the race and I was undecided, this interview would have turned me off of the McKinney/Clemente candidacy.
Either you can continue to blame other people for not supporting you or you can learn from criticism and improve yourselves.
It’s this attitude that made me leave the Greens in the first place.
5 paulie cannoli // Aug 9, 2008 at 7:57 pm
Is there not enough in the Bush administration or Obama’s record to go after, or do you somehow believe that these constant attacks on the Greens is somehow going to “wake†us all up so we (all 1500 of us) will vote for Nader?
I think a lot of the anti-Green nastiness here is reprehensible. I hope it doesn’t get to you too much.
IND: What’s the 3rd party convention scene like?
RC: WHITE FOLKS THOUGHT WE WERE THE HELP
Classic.
Well, yeah, it can’t be fun.
6 Mike Gillis // Aug 9, 2008 at 8:06 pm
And just to toss it out there, every time I’ve jumped on the Greens, it was always after either someone said something untrue or if the Greens on here posted an article that did the same, like the stupid Rensenbrink piece from a week or so back.
Other than that, I rarely give the McKinney campaign or the Greens much thought at all.
7 paulie cannoli // Aug 9, 2008 at 8:10 pm
if the Greens on here posted an article that did the same, like the stupid Rensenbrink piece from a week or so back.
I posted that, and I’m a Libertarian.
Gregg is the only Green with a capital G here (as a writer, we do occasionally get comments from other Greens).
8 Gregg Jocoy // Aug 9, 2008 at 8:12 pm
I must admit that the comment about white folks made me laugh out loud.
If I had had milk in my mouth, it would have come out of my nose.
And thanks paulie. I believe that the Democrats and Republicans are more appropriate targets for my venom.
Kinda reminds me of the old joke.
“Why are fights in academia so nasty?”
“Because there is so little at stake.”
9 Gregg Jocoy // Aug 9, 2008 at 8:19 pm
BTW, not to prolong the debate, but Mike, if you can provide me with even one example of where I I told lies about Nader’s past support of the Greens or other things, I will write a front page editorial apologizing for doing so, assuming of course that G.E. is OK with that…and I imagine he would.
Finally, paulie, I noticed recently that Ron Hardy has added comments here, although he is not a reporter. I would like to ask any Greens out there reading the site to write contact.ipr@gmail.com if they are willing to help report on the Greens…with G.E.’s approval of course.
10 Mike Gillis // Aug 9, 2008 at 8:48 pm
You said in response to one post that Ralph did nothing after the 2000 election to grow the Green Party, where in fact he participated in dozens of fundraisers and campaigned for a number of candidates.
You also repeated the “Ralph is white” lie, even after you were corrected about it. Twice.
11 Gregg Jocoy // Aug 9, 2008 at 9:14 pm
You have me confused with someone else. I have never said that Ralph did nothing to grow the GP after 2000. In fact, I supported Nader being our nominee in 2004, and told him so face-to-face at a fundraiser I organized in Columbia, SC that featured Nader, and again at an appearance I set up and paid for out of my own pocket in Clemson, SC. I also told him face-to-face that I would be supporting the Green Party nominee, whether it was Nader or someone else.
Again, give me a LINK and you get an apology.
As to Nader’s whiteness, what I have said on several occasions is that most Americans, like 95%+ I would guess, believe Nader is white. As you were told at Ballot Access News, Nader is of Greek Lebanese descent. Most of us consider Greeks to be white.
I am a Nader fan, and have been since I saw him at the University of Georgia in 1978. As a member of the Citizens Party I tried to persuade him to run for President in 1984. Like many Greens, I was brought to the party by the Nader campaign.
But I am not interested in a one man show. That is why I support the Green Party, and not Nader.
12 Mike Gillis // Aug 9, 2008 at 9:16 pm
“As to Nader’s whiteness, what I have said on several occasions is that most Americans, like 95%+ I would guess, believe Nader is white. As you were told at Ballot Access News, Nader is of Greek Lebanese descent. Most of us consider Greeks to be white.”
And again, perception isn’t reality. A large majority of Americans also think that Barack Obama is anti-war.
That doesn’t make it so.
13 Gregg Jocoy // Aug 9, 2008 at 9:22 pm
So, to be clear, I am a liar because I say that a man of Greek Lebanese descent is white?
14 paulie cannoli // Aug 9, 2008 at 10:00 pm
There is no objective fact to the idea of human races, but there is a culturally defined reality. Most people who classify humans by races, classify Arabs as white, and certainly Greeks.
15 G.E. // Aug 9, 2008 at 10:07 pm
paulie – That is just not true. Scientifically, if you can call it that, Arabs are “caucasoids.” But no one outside of a science lab considers Arabs to be “white.”
16 Gregg Jocoy // Aug 9, 2008 at 10:30 pm
Just got a note in my email box that says:
17 G.E. // Aug 9, 2008 at 11:09 pm
The juxtaposition is rich:
The Greens have a hardcore anti-war ex-congressperson presidential nominee and a hip-hop activist for VP; both women.
The LP has a (“former”) hardcore drug warrior congressperson as its presidential nominee; and a neocon scamdiecapper / informercial charlatan as its VP; both white men (as always).
18 Deran // Aug 9, 2008 at 11:44 pm
Clemente was very funny, and right on the mark with a lot of what she said, and how she said it. I for one like a little combativeness in candidates.
19 paulie cannoli // Aug 9, 2008 at 11:59 pm
But no one outside of a science lab considers Arabs to be “white.â€
The US government, wikipedia articles, people who write books on the subject, etc. , do.
20 paulie cannoli // Aug 10, 2008 at 12:13 am
see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_definitions_of_race
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States_Census
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_people
21 green in brooklyn // Aug 10, 2008 at 12:18 am
I think it was hilarious. Would be even better if Colbert or Stewart had the balls to have her and/or Cynthia on.
If you’d like to see this digg here:
http://digg.com/politics/Comedy_Central_Interviews_Green_Party_VP_She_Slaps_em_Back
22 paulie cannoli // Aug 10, 2008 at 12:19 am
The following definitions apply to the 2000 census only.[9]
* “White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as “White” or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Near Easterner, Arab, or Polish.
23 paulie cannoli // Aug 10, 2008 at 12:24 am
I suspect if we do well they may be guests on either Daily Show or Colbert Reportâ€
That would be awesome!
24 paulie cannoli // Aug 10, 2008 at 12:29 am
The Greens have a hardcore anti-war ex-congressperson presidential nominee and a hip-hop activist for VP; both women.
The LP has a (â€formerâ€) hardcore drug warrior congressperson as its presidential nominee; and a neocon scamdiecapper / informercial charlatan as its VP; both white men (as always).
The description of Bob and Wayne is very negative, but it is a definite fact that both the LP and CP are each running two white males, and that the LP’s ticket does not have a good past history on foreign policy and continues to oppose timetables for withdrawal, opposes closing all US foreign military bases, etc.
On those bases, the Greens have an edge, and Nader-Gonzalez is also preferable to Barr-Root
or Baldwin-Castle.
Not so on most economic issues. It looks very dubious that Jay will be on my ballot, so it’s Barr, McKinney, or no vote.
25 paulie cannoli // Aug 10, 2008 at 12:32 am
* both white men (as always).
The LP could have done better (Mary Ruwart, Chris Bennett) – and has (Jo Jorgensen and Nancy Lord were the VP candidates in the 1990s).
Not that there is anything wrong with running “white” males – but there is something wrong in doing so exclusively.
26 Sivarticus // Aug 10, 2008 at 12:56 am
There weren’t any well qualified blacks running for the LP, Paulie. Ruwart, as a female candidate, was well qualified and put up a good, competitive campaign. I would rather have an open contest to determine the best man or woman, rather than a determination like the Greens seemingly had since 2006 to “run a woman” or else…
As for Clemente’s “interview,” just more proof that she’s totally unqualified black nationalist trash. “Dark” Green? Talking about white folks thinking they were the help? What the hell is this? I will be surprised if the Greens even manage to get their own members to vote for the bizarro ticket they’ve chosen over Nader.
27 Trent Hill // Aug 10, 2008 at 1:31 am
“You also repeated the “Ralph is white†lie, even after you were corrected about it. Twice.”
RALPH NADER IS WHITE.
First of all–as Paulie has pointed out–Arabs are “caucasian” and the US government, racial scientists, and fact books all classify Arabs as white/caucasian.
However, that does not matter because NADER IS NOT AN ARAB. Nader is of GREEK-Lebanese origin, and thus is THOROUGHLY white.
28 Sivarticus // Aug 10, 2008 at 1:43 am
The ongoing battle over whether or not Nader is white just illustrates the ridiculousness of identity politics. I fear we will see more crap in the future like Obama, McKinney, and Hillary just for the sake of “diversity.” God forbid we evaluate candidates on their merits anymore.
29 G.E. // Aug 10, 2008 at 1:53 am
I don’t think the KKK would consider a Lebanese man “white.”
30 Fred Church Ortiz // Aug 10, 2008 at 2:54 am
Someone source for me that Nader even is Greek-Lebanese. So far all I’ve found is a remark from someone going by “Richard” in the BAN comments section, and Trent & Gregg’s repeated assertion.
“Nader” can be of either German or Arabic origin. I’m taking it on faith that he’s not German. His father’s first name was Nathra, which is also Arabic.
His mother’s maiden name was Bouziane. Also Arabic, apparently specifically North African (possible reason she taught French?)
Nader’s sister’s quoted here referring to him as an Arab:
And the point is later made that Arabic is his first language:
I’m assuming this whole deal started with someone getting confused because he’s Maronite and not Muslim.
31 Fred Church Ortiz // Aug 10, 2008 at 3:05 am
Hmm, on second thought “Richard” is probably Richard Winger himself. But I’m not on the back-end of that site so can’t say for sure.
32 Mike Gillis // Aug 10, 2008 at 3:06 am
Aside from the Richard Winger bit, all other available info says that Ralph is an Arab American.
The reason I harp on this isn’t because I embrace Identity politics. I don’t. Ralph could be a Klingon or a leprechaun or a white guy and I’d still vote for him.
The issue is largely irrelevant to me. He doesn’t shy away from talking about issues that concern Arab Americans, but he doesn’t define himself by his ethnicity, either.
I just hate people consistently tossing around factually inaccurate statements like so much confetti.
Greg has said on multiple occasions that Ralph is a white guy and that his most cited reason for this is majority perception.
Majority perception has said a lot of inaccurate things: like Obama being anti-war, a third party vote being a wasted one, the world being flat, mental illness being caused by demonic possession, the sun rotating the Earth…
It’s irrelevant what everyone thinks. There is an objective reality. Everyone could think that Ralph is a shapeshifting pirate from the future and that wouldn’t make it so.
The fact that he continues to bandy majority perception about as a legitimate argument is just said.
Ralph isn’t a white guy. He’s got an Arab surname. His family all have Arab names. His family is from Lebanon. He refers to himself as Arabic. Arabic was one of his first languages.
Yes, his family comes from the Christian part of Lebanon, but he’s still an Arab.
Richard’s a smart guy, but I see no other evidence pointing to Ralph being anything other than an Arab American.
33 Fred Church Ortiz // Aug 10, 2008 at 3:17 am
As for the anthropological definition of Caucasoid, my understanding is that it’s mostly based on the shape of one’s face. Not quite how prospective country-club members get vetted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craniofacial_anthropometry
34 Peter Orvetti // Aug 10, 2008 at 3:51 am
I thought she was pretty clever. I like the “dark green” gibe.
Though if I’d answered “Describe your leadership style in one word. Don’t say green,” I would have said “yellowish-blue”.
35 langa // Aug 10, 2008 at 4:08 am
When asked about the first 100 days, I wish she would have advocated replacing “Hail to the Chief” with “Fight the Power”.
36 Fred Church Ortiz // Aug 10, 2008 at 4:23 am
I’d say change that racist name the president’s house has.
37 paulie cannoli // Aug 10, 2008 at 8:56 am
There weren’t any well qualified blacks running for the LP, Paulie.
Chris Bennett for VP.
38 paulie cannoli // Aug 10, 2008 at 9:01 am
I don’t think the KKK would consider a Lebanese man “white.â€
True, they don’t consider Jews to be white either.
39 Peter Orvetti // Aug 10, 2008 at 9:50 am
So now folks can sit around debating Nader’s ethnicity in addition to Obama’s and Barr’s. We’re making an impact!
I will venture to say John McCain is white, and Cynthia McKinney is not.
40 paulie cannoli // Aug 10, 2008 at 10:10 am
Greg has said on multiple occasions that Ralph is a white guy and that his most cited reason for this is majority perception.
“Race” has no validity other than people’s perception of it.
41 Sivarticus // Aug 10, 2008 at 10:59 am
Wouldn’t be surprised if a Greens or other libtards are trying to keep the frenzy going over how Nader is white and how that’s soooo horrible. But then, what can you expect from a party that seems to want to expand Affirmative Action to the Presidential level?
42 Gene Trosper // Aug 10, 2008 at 11:07 am
Not that there is anything wrong with running “white†males – but there is something wrong in doing so exclusively.
Then the LP needs more females and people who are not “melanin challenged”, especially ones who are suitable to run for Prez and VP.
43 paulie cannoli // Aug 10, 2008 at 11:27 am
Then the LP needs more females and people who are not “melanin challengedâ€, especially ones who are suitable to run for Prez and VP.
Yes. Unfortunately, the LP message is not being packaged in such a way as to facilitate that, so a big opportunity is being passed up.
And no, I can’t market a party successfully which chooses to market itself in an entirely different way – I’d be laughed out of the ‘hood.
44 Sivarticus // Aug 10, 2008 at 11:36 am
Well, it’s undeniable the vast majority of blacks are firmly in the Democratic camp. There’s no way anyone is going to dislodge them either, with talk of getting rid of their handouts. I don’t think Libertarians have any chance at all of attracting them. Even McKinney will only get the nuttiest of black nationalists this year due to Obama.
The LP might have some success with other races and ethnic groups though. Remaining committed to individual rights and sovereignty could probably pick up the American Indian vote. And the Latinos (the ones here legally) are usually adept businessmen who would likely take kindly to a strong anti-tax message.
45 paulie cannoli // Aug 10, 2008 at 11:54 am
Bullshit.
Who gets the brunt of police, court and prison abuse? Who gets to die disproportionally in imperialist wars on behalf of the military-industrial-government complex? Who is disproportionately prevented from starting and building a business by occupational and business licensing laws? There are numerous reasons why the LP could be successful in the African American community if it tried.
46 Steven R Linnabary // Aug 10, 2008 at 12:15 pm
Fred Church Ortiz // Aug 10, 2008 at 4:23 am
I’d say change that racist name the president’s house has.
I’m more bothered by McCain’s homophobic “Straight Talk Express”.
Seriously, folks, all this talk about whether Nader is “white enough” to suit the KKK is quite inane. Who cares? To most people he is white.
FWIW, the LP has had some non-caucasoid pre-convention POTUS candidates. Russell Means is American Indian (’87) and Richard Boddie is black (’93). Both nearly clinched their respective nominations. Their whiteness or lack thereof had absolutely nothing to do with their losing the nominations. In the first case, Ron Paul was considered to be the better candidate and in the second Andre Marrou was considered the better communicator of libertarian ideals.
I’m certain that the Green Party went through much the same introspection in considering the best candidates to further the Green platform. The Greens had several good, qualified candidates. But Cynthia McKinney and Rosa Clemente were the best prepared to lead the Green Party to new heighths.
PEACE
Steve
47 Gregg Jocoy // Aug 10, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Government “handouts” go mostly to white people, not black people, mainly because blacks make up a much smaller percentage of the population.
That said, I am always tickled by people whop think that food stamps and rent assistance are more of a burden than government subsidies to the nuclear industry, corporate mega-farmers and airlines.
Most tax money is spent on the majority. The majority is white.
As to identity politics, I have called for an end to identity caucuses in the Green Party since 2000, and while my opinion has not carried the day, I have never been called a racist nor a sexist. I can’t help but wonder if the same would be true were I in another party and was calling for identity caucuses.
48 paulie cannoli // Aug 10, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Seriously, folks, all this talk about whether Nader is “white enough†to suit the KKK is quite inane. Who cares? To most people he is white.
Exactly.
FWIW, the LP has had some non-caucasoid pre-convention POTUS candidates. Russell Means is American Indian (’87) and Richard Boddie is black (’93). Both nearly clinched their respective nominations. Their whiteness or lack thereof had absolutely nothing to do with their losing the nominations.
Are you sure?
In the first case, Ron Paul was considered to be the better candidate and in the second Andre Marrou was considered the better communicator of libertarian ideals.
I think Boddie was far and away the better communicator.
I’m certain that the Green Party went through much the same introspection in considering the best candidates to further the Green platform. The Greens had several good, qualified candidates. But Cynthia McKinney and Rosa Clemente were the best prepared to lead the Green Party to new heighths.
We’re back in agreement here.
49 paulie cannoli // Aug 10, 2008 at 12:29 pm
That said, I am always tickled by people who think that food stamps and rent assistance are more of a burden than government subsidies to the nuclear industry, corporate mega-farmers and airlines.
Exactly!
50 paulie cannoli // Aug 10, 2008 at 12:31 pm
As to identity politics, I have called for an end to identity caucuses in the Green Party since 2000, and while my opinion has not carried the day, I have never been called a racist nor a sexist. I can’t help but wonder if the same would be true were I in another party and was calling for identity caucuses.
You don’t have to wonder. The mere proposal for a women and minorities outreach committee in an LP which is overwhelmingly white male was called racist and sexist, and it died quickly without much interest from party members.
51 paulie cannoli // Aug 10, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Bears repeating:
, I am always tickled by people who think that food stamps and rent assistance are more of a burden than government subsidies to the nuclear industry, corporate mega-farmers and airlines.
It says more about such people than whatever they are commenting on or about.
52 Gregg Jocoy // Aug 10, 2008 at 12:35 pm
I also think that paulie is right about the prospects for the LP in the black community. A fellow Green and I stood outside a convention of black church members when they met in Charlotte and handed out copies of the essay “Turning the Green Party Black” by Donna Warren. Everyone was polite except one man who tried to get the cops involved, which to their credit they refused.
One older black man said “The Green Party? That’s my party! I’m from Philly.”
A young black man said “I ain’t down with the Greens. I’m a Libertarian.”
In fact, I believe it is the Green Party’s “small l” libertarian positions, even though they may conflict with other Green positions, that give us our best shot not only at the black community, but the community of small business people and many others. Calling on Exxon/Mobile, Shell and BP to give up their government benefits is not the same as calling for an end to food stamps, and blacks, latinos and yes, even we white folks, can understand the difference.
I’m not saying there are no differences between the GP and LP, but I do believe you would find as many Greens fighting to allow access to the market for folks trying to enter the marketplace with a small business, regardless of the business owner’s race or sex. What you won’t find in the GP is support for government give aways for a rich business owner who plans to create from whole cloth a mega-enterprise. If Warren Buffet wanted to start up a new car manufacturing company Greens would wish him well and expect him to cover all the costs of the effort, while democrats and Republicans would be lining up to give them your and my tax dollars.
There are differences between the CP, GP and LP, but I tend to think that these differences pale in comparison to the actions of Democrats and Republicans.
53 paulie cannoli // Aug 10, 2008 at 12:47 pm
In fact, I believe it is the Green Party’s “small l†libertarian positions, even though they may conflict with other Green positions, that give us our best shot not only at the black community, but the community of small business people and many others. Calling on Exxon/Mobile, Shell and BP to give up their government benefits is not the same as calling for an end to food stamps, and blacks, latinos and yes, even we white folks, can understand the difference.
I’m not saying there are no differences between the GP and LP, but I do believe you would find as many Greens fighting to allow access to the market for folks trying to enter the marketplace with a small business, regardless of the business owner’s race or sex. What you won’t find in the GP is support for government give aways for a rich business owner who plans to create from whole cloth a mega-enterprise. If Warren Buffet wanted to start up a new car manufacturing company Greens would wish him well and expect him to cover all the costs of the effort, while democrats and Republicans would be lining up to give them your and my tax dollars.
There are differences between the CP, GP and LP, but I tend to think that these differences pale in comparison to the actions of Democrats and Republicans.
I agree with all the above.
The one thing that we might disagree about, although not necessarily: I think community self-help efforts are much better than food stamps and the like.
The government’s welfare bureaucracy empowers mostly welfare bureaucrats, and through its soul-destroying bevvy of paperwork and rules helps to keep folks trapped in dependency. The welfare bureaucracy tends to self-perpetuate.
On the other hand, community self-help efforts are much more efficient, tend to distinguish meaningfully between those who truly need help and those who don’t, and do not penalize people for having an intact family and climbing out of dependency.
Malcolm X agreed with me about this, and I grew up in poor/”majority minority” neighborhoods – I’m not speaking as a greedy person.
54 Gregg Jocoy // Aug 10, 2008 at 12:59 pm
paulie, you are correct in your analysis of the impact of government programs vs self-help programs. I believe that most Greens would prefer to teach poor people how to shop most effectively, how to prepare foods most efficiently, and most important, how to work with neighbors to create opportunities to grow their own food instead of the soul crushing government programs that tend to subsidize grocery store owners as much as the food stamp recipient. But, rest assured, the Democrats and Republicans who bring in the donations from these corporate food distributors will try to find ways to keep people from self-reliance.
Again, I am not saying that there are no differences, but to my way of thinking, the Green Party believes in personal responsibility, but you can’t ask hungry people, or homeless people, to forgo food and housing from government sources when there are so few viable alternatives.
Think about it this way. A Green is much more likely to go to a city park and give the homeless there a meal, even if the damn thing is vegan, than to call the cops. Ditto (I assume) the LP and CP folks. Can’t say the same about the Ds and Rs.
55 Gregg Jocoy // Aug 10, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Also, while it is scary to watch, as I have, but you are also right paulie in saying that community based programs are better at identifying those truly in need from the lazy or criminally inclined.
I served on the Board of Directors of the Clarke Community Federal Credit Union in Athens, GA a thousand years ago. I served on the loan committee. When an application for a car loan came in it was not unusual to hear a fellow member say “She doesn’t have a job. Is the car going to help her get a job?” This was not so much a desire to limit her options as it was to help her avoid getting into trouble. The committee members would call up the applicant to find out if her job situation was better, or if she needed a ride to work for a few months so she could pay for a car from her earnings.
IF this were done by a government entity, or even a corporate one, it would smack of control, not help.
Also, because the members of the loan committee did know the people applying for loans, they were better able to decide who was a bad risk altogether. “He was arrested last month and hasn’t gone to trial; yet. No way we should make that loan until his trial is over.” or “She hasn’t held a job for more than three months her entire life” or “She still owes the church half the $500 they loaned her for Christmas”
No bank, government entity or large corporation could do that. There is no way they could have that information.
In fact, today I imagine the CCFCU loan committees could not do this, since I imagine it has grown too big. This is one reason I tend to support smaller enterprises of all varieties over large ones. I tend to believe most on-the-ground Greens might agree.
56 paulie cannoli // Aug 10, 2008 at 1:58 pm
I’m glad we agree on all that.
It’s a whole lot different than the picture of Greens someone like Sivarticus would want to paint.
57 Gregg Jocoy // Aug 10, 2008 at 2:14 pm
Well paulie, I have been told that I am a “conservative” Green, but I don’t think I am. Free people working together to improve their own lives is green in my book. Putting people into a situation that forces them to depend on large organizations for food and shelter is not appropriate.
Here’s an example of why these sorts of things can be problematic.
If we send billions in food to destitute people in famine we do keep people alive for today, but we make it impossible for farmers to survive. Human behavior is pretty consistent over time, and almost all people will take free stuff when offered, especially if it is vital to survival. It is as foolish to expect the hungry to refuse a hand-out as to expect oil companies to turn down subsidies or pharma to refuse the benefits of free government research.
The real question then becomes, how do we keep people from starvation while empowering farmers and others on the ground to find ways to stave off hunger in the long run.
Empowering others in other nations is not really possible from here in the US, but we can do what we can to be sure our help does not do more harm than good.
58 paulie cannoli // Aug 10, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Exactly.
59 Trent Hill // Aug 10, 2008 at 3:22 pm
“I don’t think the KKK would consider a Lebanese man “white.—
WTF does thart have to do with anything?
60 Lance Brown // Aug 10, 2008 at 8:30 pm
I think the LP deserves a somewhat fairer shake on the whole minority candidate issue. Especially the characterization of our prez ticket as “both white men (as always)”, which is just inaccurate. The LP has broken from that mold 3 (out of 10) times – including, notably, the very first ticket, where they nominated the first woman to receive an electoral vote.
While we could do much, much, much better in appealing to minorities and bringing them into the party, the fact that women have fared so well at or near the top of the LP ticket (I consider Mary Ruwart to be in this group as well) despite the party membership being heavily whitemalian says something good about the LP’s view on identity politics. Ironically, Mary Ruwart may have lost not because she was a woman, but because she played up her gender as a political plus. Which, while it may have had some truth to it, reeked of identity politics, and turned many people off. It turned me off from a distance, watching C-Span, and I consider myself a fan of Mary Ruwart.
My point I guess is that the LP’s lack of minority candidates most likely stems more from having a relatively small pool to draw from (within the party), rather than political timidity, or sexism or racism. I’m not sure what Chris Bennett’s qualifications for VP were, but it’s worth noting that none of the pre-announced VP candidates were taken very seriously once the prez race shook out. Root and Kubby were both prez race hand-me-downs, and due to convention politics, none of the other candidates really had a chance. The LP’s VP spot is a hard one to campaign for anyway, largely because no one really cares about that race until that final half hour on the last day.
Which is to say, I don’t think Chris Bennett’s loss is that useful of an example.
Which isn’t to excuse the LP…I don’t have the numbers, but my gut says that most or all minorities are even more minority in the LP than in the general population. This is partly due to the Democrats’ seeming minority monopoly, but it’s also got to be due to how (and where) we represent ourselves.
It could in part be just an extension of the fact that the LP has been branded as being conservative. Our prez candidates tend to play more toward the GOP/”conservative” base, and therefore anti-”liberal”. So it makes sense we’d be at considerable remove from the supposed sweetheart groups of the Dems. If the “conservative” GOP has a hard time appealing to them, then an “even-more-conservative” party would seemingly have an even harder time. Until we unshackle the party from that yoke, we’ll probably continue to have a minority of minorities in the LP.
Geez…funny how a quick comment can turn into an essay so quickly. Here’s hoping there aren’t too many typos.
61 Trent Hill // Aug 10, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Correct me if im wrong but–doesnt Bob Barr have significant black ancestry?
62 donald raymond lake // Aug 10, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Trent Hill, why, why, why, dumb, dumb, dumb!
63 Trent Hill // Aug 10, 2008 at 9:20 pm
….You seriously have problems man.
SERIOUSLY.
64 donald raymond lake // Aug 10, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Trent Hill // Aug 10, 2008 at 3:22 pm
“Doesn’t Bob Barr have significant black ancestry?â€
WTF does that have to do with anything?
Especially since ALL HUMANS are originally Africans —–all of us!
65 donald raymond lake // Aug 10, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Me ????????????????/
No factual retort, just smear!
You are such a class less act!
66 Trent Hill // Aug 10, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Mr. Lake,
In case you didn’t notice,there was an arguement in the above comments over wether the LP “embraced minorities”. Several people said that the LP had nominated “white men” too often. But Bob Barr is, by my understanding, half-black. That is QUITE relevant to the conversation.
However, I am glad to see that you can speak full sentences.
67 ronaldkanehardy // Aug 10, 2008 at 11:09 pm
I thought Rosa was funny.
Actually my first thought was that it wasn’t Rosa but satire by Comedy Central but I have heard since that it was Rosa.
Being able to joke about self and self-identity is healthy, and the “race” jokes are just that. If you’ve ever listened to Rosa speak, and their are videos and recordings out there from the Hip Hop Political Convention and from the Brooklyn fund raiser with the hip hop community, I think you might really like to see her on national TV, especially the Daily Show. I sure would, but they will have to keep their finger on the “beep” button for language, she definitely has more F-bombs in her arsenal than Dick “f*** you” Cheney.
I find Rosa Clemente to be VERY refreshing and honest and I am very glad she is on the GP ticket. We may not get 5 percent but were going to have a helluva sound track this year!
68 paulie cannoli // Aug 11, 2008 at 12:21 am
Ronald and Lance are correct.
Trent: evidence? sources?
Barr looks like he might be part black (I don’t know about half), but I’ve never heard him own up to it.
69 donald raymond lake // Aug 11, 2008 at 2:24 am
You have no owner ship in your deceiptful manner?
70 Trent Hill // Aug 11, 2008 at 9:55 am
Paulie,
I’v no evidence to the matter. Notice how I said, “correct me if i’m wrong”. I DONT know for sure, but I could’ve sworn. He definetly does, by my observations. He clearly has some of the physical features. Google “Bob Barr black ancestry”–apparently he’s pretty sensitive about it.
71 Fred Church Ortiz // Aug 11, 2008 at 10:04 am
What’re you trying to do Trent, scare off Sivarticus?
72 G.E. // Aug 11, 2008 at 11:00 am
I see absolutely no indication that Bob Barr is “black.” When I google the above, all I find are a ton of questions: “Is Bob Barr black?” No real answers, no real evidence. This seems like the worst racial smear ever.
73 Trent Hill // Aug 11, 2008 at 11:09 am
1.)My intention was not to spread disinformation or to ask a hostile question. I believe it is obvious Barr has some black ancestry.
2.) I don’t understand how this is a racial smear. No one has alledged that Barr’s father was actually a black postal worker or anything, simply that maybe he has black ancestry. This is a matter of curiosity, not hostility.
74 langa // Aug 11, 2008 at 11:19 am
I live in Barr’s old district. Back when he was our representative, I heard on several occasions that one of his grandparents was black, but no one ever offered any hard evidence to support that claim.
75 G.E. // Aug 11, 2008 at 11:25 am
Smear not by you, Trent, but by people who think being black is a bad thing. You really think allegations of black ancestry aren’t a smear for a white politician in the South?
76 Trent Hill // Aug 11, 2008 at 11:50 am
GE,
You live in Michigan, so ill forgive the generalization.
No, it isnt a smear. In fact, in many situations–it’d be helpful in combatting “possible racism” smears, which are far more damaging in the south these days.
77 G.E. // Aug 11, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Sure… Racism doesn’t sell in the “New South.” That’s why Bush/Rove started that rumor about McCain in South Carolina. As a Yankee, I possibly couldn’t understand.
78 Steven R Linnabary // Aug 11, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Bob Barr is from Iowa. There very few blacks in Iowa.
Not that it matters to anyone but the KKK, and I don’t think we are reaching out to them.
PEACE
Steve
79 Trent Hill // Aug 11, 2008 at 5:06 pm
GE,
Not “couldnt possibly”. “Dont.”
You DONT understand. =)
In the South–racial politics appeal to a distinct minority of the voting population. But mostly in dominant-democratic states. For example, these sort of politics are far more effective in states like West Virginia, Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Arkansas. Georgia is a state which switched to Republican-dominated (even at the local level) a long time ago, whereas Louisiana (despite being conservative) is still 2/3rds democratic. These older democrats are mostly the George Wallace-types and such. I don’t think Bob Barr’s ancestry would’ve effected him in his district much. If it were a smear, it was a stupid one to pull–as it would’ve probably helped him by combatting “racism” smears that are often prevalent in Deep-South Republican primaries these days.
Besides—it seems pretty clear that he actually DOES have black ancestry. His bone structure, skin tone, and facial features are pretty distinguished,and definetly have black lineage. Im not saying this as a bad thing–im saying Barr should be celebrating his black heritage (if their is any) in an effort to reach the Black Libertarian/Republican/Liberal crowd. I’ll bet Roy Innis would go on tour for him.
80 Dylan Waco // Aug 11, 2008 at 5:28 pm
I’ve lived in rural Georgia, Northern New Jersey, Chattanooga, and the cradle of secession Charleston, South Carolina. By far and away the most racist place I’ve ever lived is New Jersey.
81 Trent Hill // Aug 11, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Dylan,
Many people assume that the “most conservative” areas are the most racist. Thus the West and South are always pitted for racism. But I’v heard many people, travellers, say that the Midwest and Northeast are. Areas of racial tension arent tied down by boundaries.
82 G.E. // Aug 11, 2008 at 5:48 pm
“His bone structure, skin tone, and facial features are pretty distinguished,and definetly have black lineage.”
I’m just sort of creeped out by the above.
83 Trent Hill // Aug 11, 2008 at 5:55 pm
GE,
That’s a statement of opinion. I suppose people could disagree, but I think anyone looking with an unbiased eye would say the same. Barr looks as if he has black ancestry.
84 G.E. // Aug 11, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Even the statement “black ancestry” gives me the creeps.
I have never, EVER looked at Bob Barr and saw anything other than a white man.
But I thought Soledad O’Brian was white, too.
85 Trent Hill // Aug 11, 2008 at 9:19 pm
To be fair–Soledad was 1/4th-1/3rd black.
She was Irish, Australian, and Afro-Cuban.
86 G.E. // Aug 11, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Was? Did she die, too? Bernie Mac, Isaac Hayes, and now Soledad O’Brian?
87 Trent Hill // Aug 11, 2008 at 9:32 pm
Hah. No, she’s still alive as far as I know. I took your past tense statement and extrapolated.
88 Mike Theodore // Aug 11, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Zing.
89 paulie cannoli // Aug 11, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Bob Barr is from Iowa.
His dad was in the military. I don’t know whether they had roots in Iowa or were there temporarily.
90 paulie cannoli // Aug 11, 2008 at 10:57 pm
I’ve lived in rural Georgia, Northern New Jersey, Chattanooga, and the cradle of secession Charleston, South Carolina. By far and away the most racist place I’ve ever lived is New Jersey.
I’ve lived all over too. Big cities in the Northeast and Midwest tend to have many neighborhoods which are much more segregated than anywhere I’ve ever been to in quite a few years living down south.
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