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	<title>Comments on: Greens launch effort against Electoral College manipulation of presidential elections</title>
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	<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/08/greens-launch-effort-against-electoral-college-manipulation-of-presidential-elections/</link>
	<description>Covering America's third parties and independent candidates since May 2008</description>
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		<title>By: mvymvy</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/08/greens-launch-effort-against-electoral-college-manipulation-of-presidential-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-8641</link>
		<dc:creator>mvymvy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 00:23:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=1209#comment-8641</guid>
		<description>An alternative approach, that would make every vote in every state politically relevant and equal in presidential elections, is the National Popular Vote bill.

The National Popular Vote bill would guarantee the Presidency to the candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and DC). The bill would take effect only when enacted by states possessing a majority of the electoral votes (270 of 538). When the bill comes into effect, all the electoral votes from those states would be awarded to the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and DC). 

The National Popular Vote bill has been approved by 21 legislative chambers (one house in CO, AR, ME, NC, and WA, and two houses in MD, IL, HI, CA, MA, NJ, RI, and VT). It has been enacted into law in Hawaii, Illinois, New Jersey, and Maryland. These states have 50 (19%) of the 270 electoral votes needed to bring this legislation into effect.

see  http://www.NationalPopularVote.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An alternative approach, that would make every vote in every state politically relevant and equal in presidential elections, is the National Popular Vote bill.</p>
<p>The National Popular Vote bill would guarantee the Presidency to the candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and DC). The bill would take effect only when enacted by states possessing a majority of the electoral votes (270 of 538). When the bill comes into effect, all the electoral votes from those states would be awarded to the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and DC). </p>
<p>The National Popular Vote bill has been approved by 21 legislative chambers (one house in CO, AR, ME, NC, and WA, and two houses in MD, IL, HI, CA, MA, NJ, RI, and VT). It has been enacted into law in Hawaii, Illinois, New Jersey, and Maryland. These states have 50 (19%) of the 270 electoral votes needed to bring this legislation into effect.</p>
<p>see  <a href="http://www.NationalPopularVote.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.NationalPopularVote.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: darolew</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/08/greens-launch-effort-against-electoral-college-manipulation-of-presidential-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-8433</link>
		<dc:creator>darolew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 18:58:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=1209#comment-8433</guid>
		<description>The GP&#039;s positions on such issues can be largely understood by recognizing that the GP doesn&#039;t believe in republics or states&#039; rights. The idea that the Senate is meant represent the states and not the people doesn&#039;t sit well with them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The GP&#8217;s positions on such issues can be largely understood by recognizing that the GP doesn&#8217;t believe in republics or states&#8217; rights. The idea that the Senate is meant represent the states and not the people doesn&#8217;t sit well with them.</p>
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		<title>By: Gregg Jocoy</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/08/greens-launch-effort-against-electoral-college-manipulation-of-presidential-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-8422</link>
		<dc:creator>Gregg Jocoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 15:48:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=1209#comment-8422</guid>
		<description>Well Peter, at one point in time some Greens did support abandoning the Senate as an institution as un-democratic.  In fact that may have been a part of one or more Green Party platforms.

I expect that most Greens, as with most US citizens, would be accepting of an approach which moves from a two-person per state system to one where each state has a minimum of some sort, perhaps one per state, and each may have a maximum, say four senators.  That&#039;s off the cuff and not evaluated at all, but that sort of approach would preserve the benefits of having a higher house while expanding democratic representation.  I assume many would believe that to be un-democratic as well.

There are any number of approaches that could be considered.  Perhaps I should be permitted to vote for Cindy Sheehan.  While I happen to live in South Carolina, there is no doubt that she represents me better than John Spratt, my congressman.

I think the point worth considering is that the Green Party is not looking only at incremental improvements, but is also willing to evaluate fundamental changes as well.  That is not the sort of thing the &quot;majors&quot; do, and frankly, I am more than a bit tired of every Green position here being subjected to rounds of attacks by the same voices every time we are covered here.  How would you like it if I made snyde comments on every story about the CP, LP or others?  Don&#039;t for a minute assume that stories about the other parties offer no such opportunities.  In short, this is not exactly encouraging.

As to Chris Cole&#039;s comments, I am just glad he stopped attending Charlotte Area Green Party meetings and removed himself from our mailing lists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Peter, at one point in time some Greens did support abandoning the Senate as an institution as un-democratic.  In fact that may have been a part of one or more Green Party platforms.</p>
<p>I expect that most Greens, as with most US citizens, would be accepting of an approach which moves from a two-person per state system to one where each state has a minimum of some sort, perhaps one per state, and each may have a maximum, say four senators.  That&#8217;s off the cuff and not evaluated at all, but that sort of approach would preserve the benefits of having a higher house while expanding democratic representation.  I assume many would believe that to be un-democratic as well.</p>
<p>There are any number of approaches that could be considered.  Perhaps I should be permitted to vote for Cindy Sheehan.  While I happen to live in South Carolina, there is no doubt that she represents me better than John Spratt, my congressman.</p>
<p>I think the point worth considering is that the Green Party is not looking only at incremental improvements, but is also willing to evaluate fundamental changes as well.  That is not the sort of thing the &#8220;majors&#8221; do, and frankly, I am more than a bit tired of every Green position here being subjected to rounds of attacks by the same voices every time we are covered here.  How would you like it if I made snyde comments on every story about the CP, LP or others?  Don&#8217;t for a minute assume that stories about the other parties offer no such opportunities.  In short, this is not exactly encouraging.</p>
<p>As to Chris Cole&#8217;s comments, I am just glad he stopped attending Charlotte Area Green Party meetings and removed himself from our mailing lists.</p>
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		<title>By: Sivarticus</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/08/greens-launch-effort-against-electoral-college-manipulation-of-presidential-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-8421</link>
		<dc:creator>Sivarticus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 15:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=1209#comment-8421</guid>
		<description>Thank God the Greens will never have a chance at altering our Constitution. They&#039;d probably throw in an amendment for eternal reparations as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank God the Greens will never have a chance at altering our Constitution. They&#8217;d probably throw in an amendment for eternal reparations as well.</p>
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		<title>By: langa</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/08/greens-launch-effort-against-electoral-college-manipulation-of-presidential-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-8414</link>
		<dc:creator>langa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 06:44:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=1209#comment-8414</guid>
		<description>I agree with Peter in comment #5.  Most of these calls for &quot;reform&quot; are actually just sour grapes from whichever group of partisans happened to have lost the last election.  If Obama wins a close election this year, the GOP will engage in the same kind of bitching and whining. 

Of course, none of this really matters much, considering that neither of the candidates with a realistic shot at winning are worth voting for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Peter in comment #5.  Most of these calls for &#8220;reform&#8221; are actually just sour grapes from whichever group of partisans happened to have lost the last election.  If Obama wins a close election this year, the GOP will engage in the same kind of bitching and whining. </p>
<p>Of course, none of this really matters much, considering that neither of the candidates with a realistic shot at winning are worth voting for.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Orvetti</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/08/greens-launch-effort-against-electoral-college-manipulation-of-presidential-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-8399</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Orvetti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 01:04:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=1209#comment-8399</guid>
		<description>Further in re Electoral College: It bugs me too, but by the same reasoning that says the EC should be abandoned because it does not represent the national population, so too would the U.S. Senate need to be abolished -- California has one senator per 18.2 million residents; Wyoming one senator per 257,500.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Further in re Electoral College: It bugs me too, but by the same reasoning that says the EC should be abandoned because it does not represent the national population, so too would the U.S. Senate need to be abolished &#8212; California has one senator per 18.2 million residents; Wyoming one senator per 257,500.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Orvetti</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/08/greens-launch-effort-against-electoral-college-manipulation-of-presidential-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-8398</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Orvetti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 00:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=1209#comment-8398</guid>
		<description>There is contradictory reasoning here.  The Greens say the 2000 electoral vote did not represent the national popular vote, which is true.  They also say the ballot tabulation in Ohio in 2004 was suspect, which may also be true.  However, if Ohio did indeed vote Democratic in 2004, then the Democratic ticket would have been elected despite a Republican national popular vote plurality of more than 3,000,000 votes.  Wouldn&#039;t this be equally bad, or worse, than the 2000 delivery of the White House to the party that lost the popular vote by about 540,000?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is contradictory reasoning here.  The Greens say the 2000 electoral vote did not represent the national popular vote, which is true.  They also say the ballot tabulation in Ohio in 2004 was suspect, which may also be true.  However, if Ohio did indeed vote Democratic in 2004, then the Democratic ticket would have been elected despite a Republican national popular vote plurality of more than 3,000,000 votes.  Wouldn&#8217;t this be equally bad, or worse, than the 2000 delivery of the White House to the party that lost the popular vote by about 540,000?</p>
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		<title>By: donald raymond lake</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/08/greens-launch-effort-against-electoral-college-manipulation-of-presidential-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-8388</link>
		<dc:creator>donald raymond lake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 23:44:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=1209#comment-8388</guid>
		<description>No, no, no!  Keep black folk counted as 3/5 of a human being!  Votes for non property owners? Oh puleeeeese!

Keep the stretched squandered military might of the American fascist imperial global empire tuant as the infrastructure literally rots!  . 

I first found out about the electorial college in the 1960s. Since being an elementary student, I have never, ever, ever tolerated it. 

I hate it, I hate it, I hate it. Did I mention that I hate it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, no, no!  Keep black folk counted as 3/5 of a human being!  Votes for non property owners? Oh puleeeeese!</p>
<p>Keep the stretched squandered military might of the American fascist imperial global empire tuant as the infrastructure literally rots!  . </p>
<p>I first found out about the electorial college in the 1960s. Since being an elementary student, I have never, ever, ever tolerated it. </p>
<p>I hate it, I hate it, I hate it. Did I mention that I hate it?</p>
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		<title>By: ronaldkanehardy</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/08/greens-launch-effort-against-electoral-college-manipulation-of-presidential-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-8385</link>
		<dc:creator>ronaldkanehardy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 22:52:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=1209#comment-8385</guid>
		<description>&quot;The president isnâ€™t the president of the American PEOPLE, but of the American STATES. &quot; 

And this is wrong - it should be changed. It is time to fix a mistake made 221 years ago. The Electoral College is a mechanism put into the Constitution because the &#039;founding fathers&#039;didn&#039;t trust the American People to select the President directly. This is why we ended up with morons like George W. Bush as President. 

This statement in the story: 

The civil action seeks enforcement of the â€˜Mal-Apportionment Penaltyâ€™ provided in Section 2 of the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution, which mandates a reduction of a stateâ€™s presidential electors and congressional representatives if â€œthe right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United Statesâ€¦ is deniedâ€¦ or in any way abridged.â€

Is relevant. However what I read in this was not that the 1/3 who voted for the &quot;loser&quot; were denied the right &quot;to vote at any election for the choice of electors...&quot; but that ALL VOTERS in many states are DENIED the right to vote for &quot;electors&quot; or candidates that are not Republicans or Democrats due to restrictive ballot access laws. 

I don&#039;t know if this story addresses that very well, but I personally think it is relevant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The president isnâ€™t the president of the American PEOPLE, but of the American STATES. &#8221; </p>
<p>And this is wrong &#8211; it should be changed. It is time to fix a mistake made 221 years ago. The Electoral College is a mechanism put into the Constitution because the &#8216;founding fathers&#8217;didn&#8217;t trust the American People to select the President directly. This is why we ended up with morons like George W. Bush as President. </p>
<p>This statement in the story: </p>
<p>The civil action seeks enforcement of the â€˜Mal-Apportionment Penaltyâ€™ provided in Section 2 of the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution, which mandates a reduction of a stateâ€™s presidential electors and congressional representatives if â€œthe right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United Statesâ€¦ is deniedâ€¦ or in any way abridged.â€</p>
<p>Is relevant. However what I read in this was not that the 1/3 who voted for the &#8220;loser&#8221; were denied the right &#8220;to vote at any election for the choice of electors&#8230;&#8221; but that ALL VOTERS in many states are DENIED the right to vote for &#8220;electors&#8221; or candidates that are not Republicans or Democrats due to restrictive ballot access laws. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if this story addresses that very well, but I personally think it is relevant.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Cole</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/08/greens-launch-effort-against-electoral-college-manipulation-of-presidential-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-8383</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Cole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:38:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=1209#comment-8383</guid>
		<description>In spite of the fancy tapdancin&#039;, this release reveals a stunning lack of understanding of our political system. The US is a federal republic. The president isn&#039;t the president of the American PEOPLE, but of the American STATES. That&#039;s why the copnstitution provides for the state legislatures&#039; setting the method of selecting their respective electors. There is NO right to vote for president (except for the duly selected electors), so there is by definition no disenfranchisement of &quot;African-American and young&quot; or any other class of voters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In spite of the fancy tapdancin&#8217;, this release reveals a stunning lack of understanding of our political system. The US is a federal republic. The president isn&#8217;t the president of the American PEOPLE, but of the American STATES. That&#8217;s why the copnstitution provides for the state legislatures&#8217; setting the method of selecting their respective electors. There is NO right to vote for president (except for the duly selected electors), so there is by definition no disenfranchisement of &#8220;African-American and young&#8221; or any other class of voters.</p>
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		<title>By: Special K</title>
		<link>http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/08/greens-launch-effort-against-electoral-college-manipulation-of-presidential-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-8373</link>
		<dc:creator>Special K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 17:58:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/?p=1209#comment-8373</guid>
		<description>â€œIf two thirds of the voters in a state vote for a candidate from Party A and one third vote for a candidate from Party B, and the stateâ€™s winner-take-all rule gives all of the stateâ€™s electors to Party A, then one third of the voters have been disenfranchised in violation of Amendment 14, Section 2 of the US Constitution,â€ said Jody Grage, treasurer of the Green Party.

â€œIf two thirds of the voters in a nation vote for a candidate from Party A and one third vote for a candidate from Party B, and the winner-take-all rule gives the election to the candidate from Party A, then one third of the voters have been disenfranchised . . â€œ,. said Special K, a reporter for the Disassociated Press, extending Ms. Grageâ€™s argument to the more general case..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>â€œIf two thirds of the voters in a state vote for a candidate from Party A and one third vote for a candidate from Party B, and the stateâ€™s winner-take-all rule gives all of the stateâ€™s electors to Party A, then one third of the voters have been disenfranchised in violation of Amendment 14, Section 2 of the US Constitution,â€ said Jody Grage, treasurer of the Green Party.</p>
<p>â€œIf two thirds of the voters in a nation vote for a candidate from Party A and one third vote for a candidate from Party B, and the winner-take-all rule gives the election to the candidate from Party A, then one third of the voters have been disenfranchised . . â€œ,. said Special K, a reporter for the Disassociated Press, extending Ms. Grageâ€™s argument to the more general case..</p>
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