Sean Haugh under fire for giving instructions to burn petitions

It has been confirmed by multiple sources that Libertarian Party Political Director Sean Haugh, in violation of Massachusetts electoral law, ordered petitions with valid signatures to be burned — “quite literally.”

Haugh objected to reports that Gary Fincher, a professional petition circulator on Mr. Haugh’s black list, was collecting signatures in Massachusetts. Mr. Fincher was invited by the Libertarian Party of Massachusetts, and it was the state party — not national — that was paying for his service.

Carol McMahon confirmed that she was ordered by Haugh to destroy the petitions. State Chairman George Phillies has confirmed that the LP of Mass. has ignored that instruction and will not destroy the petitions. “I am not sure where Sean Haugh got the idea that he could instruct my state committee to do such a thing,” said Dr. Phillies.

Gary Fincher, for his part, has filed an official police complaint against Mr. Haugh and intends to press charges to the fullest extent of the law.

This is just the latest in a serious of incidents implicating Sean Haugh in gross abuses of power at LPHQ. It was earlier reported that he suggested Shane Cory’s unauthorized anti-Mary Ruwart press release, and later, he went out of his way to tarnish the reputation of Libertarian for Congress, Kevin Barrett. Haugh still has not answered allegations that his role in LP.org’s infamous “candidate tracker” was anything more than “payola.”

40 thoughts on “Sean Haugh under fire for giving instructions to burn petitions

  1. richardwinger

    Bill Redpath is doing a good job of making sure this sort of thing doesn’t recur.

  2. G.E. Post author

    A good job? How exactly is Redpath “doing a good job” making sure this thing “doesn’t happen again”?

    If Redpath wanted to do a “good job,” he could follow the path offered by Jim Rogers when asked what he would do as Fed chairman.

  3. paulie cannoli

    Carol has just run a check of a sample of Gary’s signatures against a six month old database, which does not include people who just registered, moved, etc.

    All the sheets she checked were 70-82%, checking by name only and without trying to find voters whose name was hard to read by address, indicating the actual validity was better.

  4. Nexus

    GE,
    I could be wrong here, but I think richardwinger is flexing his sarcasm muscle.

  5. G.E. Post author

    Nexus – That you interpreted the statement as such might go to show Mr. Winger how blinded he is by his friendship with Redpath.

  6. G.E. Post author

    And if people don’t know, Rogers said he would fire everyone and then resign if he were Fed chairman.

  7. Nexus

    This is why I don’t mind voting Libertarian but am very hesitant to join and be active in the party.

  8. Nexus

    “And if people don’t know, Rogers said he would fire everyone and then resign if he were Fed chairman.”

    I think that’s the best idea I’ve ever heard.

  9. TheOriginalAndy

    “Haugh objected to reports that Gary Fincher, a professional petition circulator on Mr. Haugh’s black list, was collecting signatures in Massachusetts. Mr. Fincher was invited by the Libertarian Party of Massachusetts, and it was the state party — not national — that was paying for his service.”

    It should be noted that Mr. Fincher was blacklisted by Sean Haugh and Scott Kohlhaas for no legitimate reason. Fincher being blacklisted has ZERO reflection on his work and is more of a commentary on the petty and corrupt nature of Haugh and Kohlhaas.

    Blacklisting proven vetran Libertarian petitioners such as Mr. Fincher is actually HURTING ballot access efforts in several states. For instance, Chris Bennett of Illinois has pointed out that there were several mercenary (as in non-Libertarian) petitioners that the National Office (ie-Sean Haugh) had hired to work on the LP of Illinois petition drive that did lousy, and in some cases fraudulent, work. Chris said that one of these groups that Haugh hired collected 5,500 signatures, and only about 1,500 of them were valid. Some of their signatures that were not valid were out right forgeries. LP National had paid them around $10,000 for their shoddy work and would have continued to pay them if not for the diligence of Chris Bennett who caught them and fired them. So these are the type of people that Haugh hired (AND WASTED DONOR’S MONEY ON) while he blacklisted some Libertarian petitioners like Mr. Fincher who do MUCH BETTER work.

  10. Mike Theodore

    I hate to be the perpetually confused blind kitten here, but I’m a little lost.
    Why did he instruct to burn the signatures?
    Why is he pressing charges?
    Just what the hell is going on with the chair?

  11. G.E. Post author

    Mike: It’s all in the story.

    But I guess you need “special” attention…

    1. Haugh instructed LPMA to burn the petitions because he doesn’t like the guy (Fincher) who collected the signatures.

    2. Fincher filed a complaint with the police because burning petitions is against the law.

    3. Redpath was brought into the conversation by Richard Winger, who says his friend Redpath is “doing a good job making sure this sort of thing doesn’t recur.”

    Do you need pictures? Maybe a song? :)

  12. libertycrusader

    Sean Haugh has now been officially turned in to the Massachusetts Attorney General.

    This is from the Direction of Elections at the Secretary of State’s office:

    Dear Mr. Fincher:

    I have forwarded your information, including the e-mail below, to the Office of the Attorney General. Once I hear back from them, I will let you know.

    Michelle Tassinari

  13. Mike Theodore

    Note: My other news sites have pictures AND songs!

    Now I gotcha now. I guess I missed the real meaning of the blacklist part. I do happily await what his excuse will be. Mostly bureaucratic mush to try and confuse us. Unfortunately, that ship has sailed.
    methinks….
    I am truly terrified that our party can amount to this much personal corruption. Why we re-elected Redpath, I will never know. 2010, we have to get someone else in there. It’s a given. Someone needs to clean up the party of principal.

    When most people say that, they usually mean trying to purge the conservatives (who they think are purging them).
    No, I could take a conservative chairman. I want someone to clean up the LNC. No more of this mind numbing, senseless power mongering.

    OK, I just found out what the story meant, and I’m on my soapbox. Hopefully I can take it to the 2010 convention, we’ll see. I’ll definitely be at 2012, but that’s too late.

  14. TheOriginalAndy

    “Mike Theodore // Jul 2, 2008 at 3:39 pm

    I hate to be the perpetually confused blind kitten here, but I’m a little lost.
    Why did he instruct to burn the signatures?”

    Haugh ordered the Massachusetts Libertarian Party to burn the 2,000 ballot access petition signatures that were collected by Gary Fincher simply because he (Haugh) and Scott Kohlhaas (fundraiser) do not like Gary. Much of their dislike for Gary has to do with the fact that Gary objected when Kohlhaas renegged on a contract and failed to pay Gary for work done on a petition drive to put the Libertarian Party back on the ballot in Nebraska. The bulk of Gary’s pay was delayed for almost a year and the LNC ended up bailing Kohlhaas out. The other “reasons” that have been concocted by Haugh and Kohlhaas have to do with petty personal stuff that shows how unprofessional they are and how they are willing to waste party resources and jepordize ballot access over a grudge which they instigated.

    “Why is he pressing charges?”

    Because the orders that Sean Haugh gave to “burn (quite literally)” the signatures that were collected by Gary IS A CRIME. It actually says that it is a crime to “alter, deface, mutilate, or destroy” filled out petition sheets on the petition sheets themselves in Massachusetts. This is a blantant violation of the rights of not only the petition circulator, but also the voters of Massachusetts, the candidates who are hoping to secure spots on the ballot, as well as the Libertarian Party donors who contributed to the ballot access drive. This was nothing more than a malicious attempt by Haugh and Kohlhaas to defraud Mr. Fincher out of $3,000 and destroy the evidence that he had worked there by burning the signatures.

    If Haugh’s nefarious plan of burning the signatures had been carried out (which would have turned any members of the Mass LP who participated into criminals as well) Libertarian Party donors would have been put on the hook to pay for 2,000 more peititon signatures to be collected by a mercenary petition coordinator at a cost of $4,000. This shows how little regard Mr. Haugh has for Libertarian Party donors to waste party resources in such a wreckless manner.

    “Just what the hell is going on with the chair?”

    I don’t know.

  15. libertycrusader

    Richard, I’m curiious as to in what way Bill Redpath is ensuring that this type of thing doesn’t recur?

    (For the record, and for the benefit of anyone reading, I’ve had a longstanding friendship with Redpath too, as well as with you.)

    To my way of thinking, the problem has three parts:

    1) Sean Haugh being fired in the first place;
    2) My being placed on his “black list” illegitimately, i.e., for personality reasons, not for quality of work; and
    3) Sean Haugh’s compulsive nature toward irrational behavior and actions that create problems for the party.

    Note that I have made several communications to Redpath in the past two days, and have given him ample opportunity to consult with me regarding a solution to this terrible situation, and I have not heard anything out of him.

    A “good job to see that this type of thing doesn’t recur” would necessarily have to address the problem of having an unbalanced individual prone to fits of anger that involve crimes detrimental to the party AND address the issue of why he would jeopardize ballot status by blacklisting a very good, high-quality Libertarian circulator.

    Also keep in mind that Sean Haugh felt comfortable enough in his commission of conspiracy to vandalize and defraud to include Scott Kohlhaas and Robert Kraus to carbon-copy them in on his plan. Why? And if Mr. Kohlhaas and Mr. Kraus received the email in question and did not try to report or condemn this action (as Pickens did), do we have a cover up of a crime by two more party officials?

    My solid record as a circulator stands on its own and I can withstand any scrutiny anyone wants to put on me. I have nothing to hide.

    However, can the same thing now be said of Mr. Haugh, Mr. Kohlhaas or Mr. Kraus? We need an investigation and we need some answers.

  16. Arthur Torrey

    I don’t have personal knowledge of the burn request, beyond the confirmations reported here and on LFV; but I have (as an LPMA State Committee member) gotten an E-mail from Carol McMahon confirming that she spot checked Fincher’s petitions and found a high apparent validity rate. She reports that the petitions were CLEARLY signed by multiple different people – a further indication of validity.

    She states that even if the registrars reject 10% of the signatures she assumed to be valid, Fincher would be well within the standard expected validity rate, and his work would be a good value for the money paid.

    As far as Redpath and the LNC are concerned, there is ONE method I know of to make sure that there are no recurrences – and that hasn’t occurred (yet) that I’m aware of – namely FIRING, FOR CAUSE….

    ART
    LPMA Operations Facilitator,
    Speaking for myself

  17. libertycrusader

    Correction: I meant to say,

    “Sean Haugh being hired in the first place”

  18. libertycrusader

    Anyne who wishes to receive clarification on a couple of reasons why Sean Haugh MIGHT not like me, can email me at:

    garyfincher@yahoo.com

    and I will provide you with a copy of a 5-page letter I just mailed out to members of the LP’s judicial committee. There’s more detail there. But email me individually; it’s way too long to post here.

  19. Fred Church Ortiz

    “This is why I don’t mind voting Libertarian but am very hesitant to join and be active in the party.”

    When crap like this comes up, I can think of better ways to burn (quite literally) $25.

  20. Gene Trosper

    Go Sean Haugh!

    I see no moral issue with burning papers issues by the state. Hell, I did that with my Selective Service card when I was 19.

    This issue should be settled within the party instead of willfully involving the state.

  21. Galileo Galilei

    This guy Haugh is out of control.

    I had to deal with Haugh during the Kevin Barrett controversy. I actually called Haugh up three times to try to works things out, before the Barrett press release mentioned above was issued. The first time I talked to him for a half hour. The next day for 15 minutes. The third day he would not answer.

    Only then did Barrett issue his call for an apolopgy and/or Haugh’s resignation.

  22. TheOriginalAndy

    “Gene Trosper // Jul 2, 2008 at 4:58 pm

    Go Sean Haugh!

    I see no moral issue with burning papers issues by the state. Hell, I did that with my Selective Service card when I was 19.

    This issue should be settled within the party instead of willfully involving the state.”

    It is absolutely RIDICULOUS to equate Sean Haugh ordering that filled out ballot access petition sheets with 2,000 signatures of Massachusetts voters being burned with the burning of draft cards.

    While one can certainly make an arguement against ballot access barriers (although it should be noted that in Massachusetts the Democrats and Republicans have to gather petition signatures to be on the ballot as well), this is NOT relavent to the discussion. The fact of the matter is that the ballot access petition requirement exsists and in order to participate in the election the Libertarian Party has to comply with it.

    There is also the element of financial fraud at play here since Mr. Haugh’s intention was that Mr. Fincher not be paid for his work and that the evidence of his work be destroyed, and that even if Mr. Fincher had been paid for his work that the signatures were still to be destroyed, which would have meant that 2,000 more signatures would have to have been collected by a mercenary petition coordinator’s group at a cost of $4,000, to be paid for by Libertarian Party donors, thus defrauding the donors out of money.

    Sean Haugh’s actions here would still be a CRIME even if we had a libertarian society.

  23. Galileo Galilei

    I’d like to say that while I agree that Haugh is an idiot & total moron, I don’t think its a good idea to get the police involved.

    Haugh telling someone to burn petitions is pretty stupid, but unless someone actually does it, it is not illegal.

    The LP and its members have better things to do than get involved in needless legal disputes.

    A better idea is to ignore Haugh whenever possible, and speak out against him when he crosses the line (like right now).

  24. Gene Trosper

    It’s NOT ridiculous. State opression is state oppression. Put a pig in lipstick and it’s still a stinking pig.

    Mass election law is what forces the LP to garner signatures in the first place. It’s the law that makes us have to beg for donations to jump through bureaucratic loops that suppress the free exchange of political ideas. In that respect, I have ZERO, ZILCH, problem with burning some petition forms.

    You want to prosecute fraud? Then prosecute fraud, not the burning of some state mandated bureaucratic paperwork.

  25. TheOriginalAndy

    “Galileo Galilei // Jul 2, 2008 at 5:18 pm

    I’d like to say that while I agree that Haugh is an idiot & total moron, I don’t think its a good idea to get the police involved.”

    The only other alternative is vigilante justice, and that would put Mr. Fincher at risk.

    This is a VERY serious offense. Sean Haugh’s intention was to DEFRAUD Mr. Fincher out of $3,000. Now just think if Mr. Haugh had been successful, Mr. Fincher would be out of $3,000. Now picture yourself in Mr. Fincher’s position, being robbed of $3,000 and having your work go “up in smoke,” quite literally.

    “Haugh telling someone to burn petitions is pretty stupid, but unless someone actually does it, it is not illegal.”

    This is not true. If a person attempts to hire a hitman to murder somebody, and the murder ends up not happening, it is still a crime.

    I’ve heard Libertarians give speeches where they say something like, “If somebody tries to steal money out of my wallet, I’d put a bullet in their head, and that’s why the 2nd amendment is important.” to a room full of cheers.

    What Sean Haugh attempted was to STEAL $3,000 from Mr. Fincher, and then Sean wanted to STEAL $4,000 from Libertarian Party donors to pay to a mercenary petition coordinator to do the job that Fincher had just done.

    Theft, fraud, and destruction of property would all still be crimes in a libertarian society, and Mr. Haugh’s intent was to committ all of these crimes.

    “The LP and its members have better things to do than get involved in needless legal disputes.”

    Yes, you are right that we all have better things to do – including Mr. Fincher – than to deal with this crap, but unfortunately Sean Haugh was put in a position that he NEVER should have been put in so we are forced to deal with it.

    “A better idea is to ignore Haugh whenever possible, and speak out against him when he crosses the line (like right now).”

    It would be nice if we could just ignore Haugh and he would just go away, however, the fact of the matter is that he is the current Political Director for LP National and unless he gets fired he will continue to cause problems that effect the entire party.

  26. Galileo Galilei

    OriginalAndy;

    Doesn’t Fincher keep photocopies of all his petition forms before he hands them off?

    If so, he wouldn’t be defrauded, he’d have poof that he should be paid.

    I also doubt they have conspiracy laws on the books regarding petition forms in MA. The law probably only applies to those who destroy forms, not those who tell others to do so.

    Also, given that Haugh is a moron, he probably didn’t know about the law in MA regarding destroying petition forms, so he may not have criminal intent, just incompetence.

    Another thing, there are many election laws on the books that are never enforced, this petition law could be one. I doubt if a candidate who decided not to run and threw his petitions away would be prosecuted. I’m also sure that there are many petitions collected by various candidates that are never turned in, and eventually get htrown out.

    But I agree, that Haugh is getting harder and harder to ignore. Three strikes and you’re out!

  27. TheOriginalAndy

    “Gene Trosper // Jul 2, 2008 at 5:32 pm

    It’s NOT ridiculous. State opression is state oppression. Put a pig in lipstick and it’s still a stinking pig.

    Mass election law is what forces the LP to garner signatures in the first place. It’s the law that makes us have to beg for donations to jump through bureaucratic loops that suppress the free exchange of political ideas. In that respect, I have ZERO, ZILCH, problem with burning some petition forms.”

    Yes, your comments are indeed completely ridiculous. Burning filled out petition forms is not going to make us anymore free, it will just mean that no Libertarian candidates will make it on the ballot, and therefore they will have even less chance of getting elected to office than they do right now.

    This is SUPPOSED to be the Libertarian PARTY, that is a POLITICAL PARTY that runs for office. Part of running for office includes gathering petition signatures. We may not like that, but unless we can change those laws (and as I said before, Massachusetts is one of the states where even the Democrats and Republicans have to petition for ballot access) if we want to run candidates for office this is what we have to do.

    If the Libertarian Party is not going to be serious about getting candidates on the ballot than it should cease to call itself and political party and perhaps even disband. There are other libertarian organizations out there that are not political parties such as the Ludwig von Mises Institute and the International Society for Individual Liberty. So if you don’t like petitioning to place candidates on the ballot perhaps you should quit the LP and join one of these organizations and encourage others to follow you and if enough people follow your lead then maybe the Libertarian Party will cease to exsist.

    If we applied to same standard that you are implying is OK in burning petition sigantures that were collected by Mr. Fincher in Massachusetts with all Libertarian Party ballot access petitions across the country then we’d just burn all of them and not have any candidates this year (and we will have wasted thousands and thousands of dollars in the process).

    You want to prosecute fraud? Then prosecute fraud, not the burning of some state mandated bureaucratic paperwork.

    “You want to prosecute fraud? Then prosecute fraud, not the burning of some state mandated bureaucratic paperwork.”

    Haugh should be fired, and he should indeed be prosecuted for fraud, and he should also be prosecuted for conspiracy to violate election laws and for violating the civil rights of the petition signers as well as the petition circulator as well as the candidates on the petitions. Perhaps Haugh should get a civil suit as well.

  28. Gene Trosper

    I’m not saying he *should* burn them, I’m just saying that I have no moral problems if they *were* burned.

    I’m not going to lend him a match, but I certainly wouldn’t go running to the government and complain either.

  29. TheOriginalAndy

    “Galileo Galilei // Jul 2, 2008 at 5:53 pm

    OriginalAndy;

    Doesn’t Fincher keep photocopies of all his petition forms before he hands them off?”

    In Massachusetts, the petition signatures have to be seperated by town, and there are 351 towns in Massachusetts, so one could end up with a large stack of paper.

    While it is a good safety precaution to photo copy your work, petitioners generally do not do this as it is costly and time consuming.

    You bring up a good point though because when dealing with obvious rip off artists like Sean Haugh and Scott Kohlhaas trust does become a legitimate issue.

    Gary had already worked extensively in Massachusetts and has a stellar reputation there and he had in fact gathered petition signatures for George Phillies in the past. So Gary trusted George Phillies and the Massachusetts LP and they trusted him (and this trust obviously turned out to be valid).

    The real issue here is that it was Sean Haugh’s INTENTION that Gary Fincher be ripped off for his work. Even if Gary had photocopied all of the signatures Sean Haugh would have still wanted to rip him off.

    “I also doubt they have conspiracy laws on the books regarding petition forms in MA. The law probably only applies to those who destroy forms, not those who tell others to do so.”

    From what I understand, conspiracy to violate election laws is still a crime.

    “Also, given that Haugh is a moron, he probably didn’t know about the law in MA regarding destroying petition forms, so he may not have criminal intent, just incompetence.”

    It is illegal to destroy filled out petition sheets in any state in the country, just as it is illegal to destroy filled out voter registrations or filled out election ballots. Sean Haugh has been involved with petition drives long enough to know this as he has been involved with ballot access drives in North Carolina. In fact, Sean Haugh actually petitioned himself back in 1980 to get Libertarian Presidential candidate Ed Clark on the ballot and I’ve been told that Sean actually gathered signatures to get Ed Clark on the ballot in Massachusetts.

    Sean Haugh KNEW that what he was ordering was illegal and immoral, he just didn’t give a damn.

    “Another thing, there are many election laws on the books that are never enforced, this petition law could be one. I doubt if a candidate who decided not to run and threw his petitions away would be prosecuted. I’m also sure that there are many petitions collected by various candidates that are never turned in, and eventually get htrown out.”

    If a candidate decides not to run after gathering some signatures that is one thing, but the candidates on the LP of Massachusetts petition form have NOT dropped out of the race. They fully intend to be in the race so therefore Sean Haugh’s order to burn the signatures “(quite literally)” went against the intention of the candidates (in addition to the signers and the donors).

    There are people who get prosecuted for petition related crimes. I don’t know how often a person gets prosecuted for destroying petition sheets, but keep in mind that there aren’t that many people who are deranged enough like Sean Haugh is to burn 2,000 petition signatures.

    “But I agree, that Haugh is getting harder and harder to ignore. Three strikes and you’re out!”

    Haugh needs to be fired immediately. The fact that he hasn’t been fired yet is truly disturbing.

  30. TheOriginalAndy

    “Gene Trosper // Jul 2, 2008 at 6:05 pm

    I’m not saying he *should* burn them, I’m just saying that I have no moral problems if they *were* burned.”

    Well then you’ve got some pretty screwed up morals because this is NOT the equivalent to burning up draft cards.

    “I’m not going to lend him a match, but I certainly wouldn’t go running to the government and complain either.”

    Well that’s easy for you to say since you weren’t the one that Mr. Haugh attempt to have his work destroyed and attempted to cheat out of pay, and you aren’t one of the candidates on the form, or one of the people who donated to this campaign.

  31. Galileo Galilei

    “Haugh needs to be fired immediately. The fact that he hasn’t been fired yet is truly disturbing.”

    OriginalAndy;

    Well, you can score one for the Barrett campaign, we thought of it first! :-)

    :-)

  32. naisarid

    Signing voter petitions is virtually the same thing as voting. That’s why you must be a registered voter to sign these sorts of petitions. If somebody asked me to sign a petition to put the Libertarian Party on the ballot and I had already signed that petition earlier with another petitioner, I would refuse the second person. If, unbeknownst to me, the person who obtained my signature later burned the petition, he has essentially thrown away my vote and disenfranchised me. This would be serious violation of my civil rights and a violation of FEDERAL law. For specific information, I refer you to US Code, Title 42, Chapter 21, Subchapter I, section 1985, “Conspiracy to interfere with civil rights” (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/1985.html).

  33. Gene Trosper

    Disenfranchisement? Then what about the laws which exist to make it difficult (if not impossible) to even get on the ballot in the first place?

    As far as I see it, this situation is merely the continuation of one segment of the party trying to play “gotcha” on another segment of the party with which they disagree with.

  34. Galileo Galilei

    One last argument against police involvement:

    Since the petitions weren’t burned, wouldn’t it be better to raise the spector of a formal complaint in an attempt to get Haugh to cease and desist? If he is actually charged, that will bring negative publicity to the LP.

    But I can see why you guys are angry, it takes A LOT of work to get 2000 signatures.

    PS

    The Barrett campaign raised the spector of a libel lawsuit against Haugh and we have not heard from him since. We only issued our press release after his “statement” was published on a publically available website forum.

  35. libertycrusader

    Gene, if you have no qualms about the burning destruction of papers issued by the state, then am I to assume that I can go into your wallet and burn $3,000 in federal reserve notes that you’d earned (federal reserve notes are issued by The State), and you’d not object, or at least not complain to the point of trying to get me into legal trouble?

  36. TheOriginalAndy

    “Since the petitions weren’t burned, wouldn’t it be better to raise the spector of a formal complaint in an attempt to get Haugh to cease and desist?”

    This is like saying, since the mobster tried to hire the hitman to kill a person, but the hitman didn’t actually make the hit, that it would be better for the person who was the target of the hit to get a cease and desist than to prosecute the mobster.

    “If he is actually charged, that will bring negative publicity to the LP.”

    These problems that Sean Haugh has been causing have been going on for a while now and LNC members and the Chair have been informed about it yet they have chosen to do nothing. So if bringing Sean Haugh down means negative publicity then so be it. Sean Haugh brought this on himself.

  37. Gene Trosper

    Gene, if you have no qualms about the burning destruction of papers issued by the state, then am I to assume that I can go into your wallet and burn $3,000 in federal reserve notes that you’d earned (federal reserve notes are issued by The State), and you’d not object, or at least not complain to the point of trying to get me into legal trouble?

    Sure…go for it. But you’d first have to take possession of those papers, which would mean you would have to either assault me, commit theft or trespass onto my property in order to gain possession. You know, commit a REAL crime.

    I stand behind my previous statements 100%.

  38. libertycrusader

    Gene:

    Even if you had been showing me a stack of hundred dollar bills you’d pulled out of your wallet, for me to look at, and I carried them over to the fireplace and burned them?

    I am starting to have little patience for people who are thinking very dimly, then proceed to stand by their dim thinking instead of admitting they may be wrong.

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